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I was looking at a question recently in which an answerer loudly demanded a commenter explain their downvote asserting that they knew it was them and linking to a GitHub containing a script that attempts to uncover downvoters (I won't link to it or the question - the original comment appears to have been edited anyway - possibly by a mod). The script in question on a cursory examination appears to try to monitor who has participated in a question and then track whose reputation has decreased (assuming it's because of downvoting on this question).

I'm not sure anything could or should be done about it, but it seems rather poisonous. Not only because people should have a right to downvote without demands that they explain their actions, and the potential for "revenge" downvoting, but because the script is so crude that it could very easily accuse the wrong people.

The comments in the code in question explain how it "works":

This script will check if you have an answer on the current page, if so, it will check the reputation of every other user who posted an answer or comment on the page every n seconds and if your vote has gone down it will tell you the name of any users who's [sic] reputation has gone down since the vote.

This works because it costs 1 reputation to downvote on S.O.

Is there anything that can or should be done for this particular script? Is there anything that can or should be done for any other theoretical (and potentially smarter) script that attempts the same thing?

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    If the script is hosted on an external site, what can Stack Overflow do about it? Or, in other words, what do you expect from this discussion?
    – Glorfindel
    Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 13:47
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    I doubt such script could work reliably with the information available from the API. There's still too much room for coincidence. Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 13:49
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    @Glorfindel: I honestly don't know. As I said I don't know if anything could or should be done about it. But I thought it was something to be aware of. Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 13:49
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    I see people are voting to close this as "Unclear what you're asking". IMO the question is clear - can we do something about it, and should we? I say it's worth discussing, because such a script encourages vengeance downvoting. Possibly on the wrong targets. If we cannot fight this in a technical way, it could at least be a violation of the TOS. I believe we should keep this question open, so we can discuss the situation. Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 13:59
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    If there isn't a previous post about this script, I agree this one should stay open. Otherwise, it should be closed as a duplicate of the previous post.
    – Pekka
    Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:12
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    Here's one of those scripts. Are we allowed to laugh at the quality of that code?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:14
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    @Cerbrus: That was the script in question. I held off linking to it in case somebody browsing by thought it would be a great idea to start (ab)using it. Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:23
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    I want to add that such scripts are highly inaccurate. Many people have rep changes for many reasons, and automatically without generating a ton of api noise to parse that in a way to be at least half right would be a feat.
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:27
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    @Magisch On Stack Overflow, yes. On the smaller sites it may be more accurate. Either way it's bad - uncovering downvoters, or falsely accusing a user of downvoting. Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:31
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    The problem isn't necessarily the script, it's what people do with that information. People make bad assumptions about who downvoted them all the time, and this just continues that (I've seen this script be wrong on more than one occasion). The real problem is when people lash out at others about perceived votes, which is where you should flag us to step in and have a conversation with them.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:32
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    I haven't done any API development; does anyone know how frequently data from the API is updated, and the precision of the times listed for rep actions? If the results are highly up-to-date for reputation changes, it wouldn't be too hard to delay the data the API returns by ~20 min. or so, and fuzzing the date precision by some number of minutes to make this script pretty useless.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:33
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    @Cerbrus // Get my question score \n myscore = getAnswerScore(); WTF?
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:37
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    @Thomas I once worked with a guy who often said that. Let's just say that his documentation was as buggy as it was incomprehensible.... Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 7:47
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    it should be possible to comment on a downvote anonimous. There is nothing as annoying to get downvoted withour knowing why.
    – GuidoG
    Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 13:40
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    Of course, if you're wrongly accused of downvoting you can easily demonstrate that you aren't the culprit... by downvoting them. If the accuser apologizes fast enough, you can reverse the downvote. ;)
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Aug 31, 2016 at 9:26

8 Answers 8

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And people wonder why we don't want forced comments with down votes...

First of all, this script is stupid:

You cannot know that the reason someone's rep went down is because they down voted your answer. They could just as well voted on another answer, or lost 1 rep point for other reasons.

So if you see someone making this assertion, I recommend calling BS.

The greater issue:

It's true that a drop in rep may indicate a down vote on some answer. So long as this is the case, I suspect people will continue to try to use said correlation to find their down voters, script or no-script. One possible solution would be to delay the visibility of rep penalties, perhaps until the UTC time rolls around. I'm not sure adding such a feature is warranted though.

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    The rep change could be visible to the downvoter immediately, and to other users only at the end of the UTC day. Otherwise I imagine a lot of new users asking "why did I get rep penalties overnight?" Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:34
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    My favorite hypothetical situation: A commenter downvotes a different answer on the same question while the answer they commented on was downvoted from a non-participant.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:36
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    @ryanyuyu: It's not even hypothetical. I've been the fall guy for a number of anonymous downvoters now.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 6:17
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    @ryanyuyu: I probably end up doing that at least once a day (downvoting a rubbish answer that doesn't deserve a comment and commenting on a mediocre one on the same question that could be improved). Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 6:31
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    A time delay was my thought too. But it would also be possible to reduce the amount of information visible about others' reputation: do you really need to see my rep to more than three significant figures, for instance? Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 13:13
  • What is the problem with forced comments on downvotes if you can see the comment, but not the author?
    – testing
    Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 14:03
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    @testing - "-1 You're an idiot - Anonymous", "-1 asnkjanfkjnaskfjn - Anonymous"
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 14:35
  • @BradLarson: Yeah, I see your point now. You could add a check like the one, when the title of your question doesn't fulfill some criteria. But still no ideal solution.
    – testing
    Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 14:37
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    @Ville-ValtteriTiittanen why not post that as an answer? Before somebody writes a script to find some correlation between an upvote of that answer and my comment here: it will have been me, because I like it.
    – null
    Commented Aug 31, 2016 at 22:21
  • Calling BS seems the right approach. But Meta could host a canonical page explaining why it's BS, that could be linked to.
    – Alohci
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:29
  • I fear that delaying the rep till midnight might entail a drawback: it would allow for after-the-fact observations. As I understand the kind of script discussed so far, they would have to pretty continuously monitor the page and its users. With rep drops delayed, one could say “Oh, I got a downvote. Let's record reps now and after midnight, and see which had a drop by one (perhaps mod 5).” No, that would not be more accurate (due to the long delay), but it might bring more people to (ab)using such scripts since running a script twice is less work than continuously running it.
    – MvG
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:43
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The Terms of Service may apply. Let's look at Point 4, Restrictions.

Any fraudulent, abusive, or otherwise illegal activity or any use of the Services or Content in violation of this Agreement may be grounds for termination of Subscriber’s right to Services or to access the Network. Subscriber may not post or transmit, or cause to be posted or transmitted, any communication or solicitation designed or intended to obtain password, account, or private information from any Network or Service user.

This is abusive, and arguably about obtaining private information about a user.

So this type of script is arguably in violation of the TOS.

It doesn't matter if the script is low quality; what matters is that the intent is harmful. Today we may have a low quality script for this; tomorrow there may be a high quality script for this.

Also, on Stack Overflow, there is so much activity that it is easy to get the wrong answer when searching for a downvoter in this way. On smaller SE sites, this may not be the case. I don't know what is worse.

If such a script uses the Stack Exchange API, it should be reason to revoke the user's API keys.

If such a script uses a scraper, there is little we can do about it technically. But a user can still be suspended over a violation of the TOS.

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    My "quality" remark was just a joke. ;-) The script I found seems to generate some very specific activity, which could possibly be identified.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:20
  • @Cerbrus Fair enough. I want to address the general situation, regardless of the quality of such scripts. As I said, it may be a poor quality script we're dealing with now (I didn't look yet), but another time we may have to deal with a really smart script. Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:24
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    I once happened to see a user's rep change to one less, while mine dropped two at the same time. Nothing private about it. It enabled me to encourage this user to explain the DV and we had a very fruitful and collegial little discussion after that. So I don't agree with "abusive". The information is publicly available, the script only facilitates noticing it. It's all about what people do with it. If I would use it (which I won't ever) I'd do it to put DVers at ease and assure them I'll embrace their explanation. Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 15:07
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    @GertArnold The information can (sometimes) be found out using public data, but it's still information that's supposed to be private. I think Alexander O'Mara is on to something - a rep drop should not be immediately visible. It actually worked out well in the event you described, but I suppose you've had your share of serial downvoters as well. IMO the presence of a script like this encourages abuse. Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 15:17
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    The script will not work reliably and even if it did, so what? This is abusive You have a VERY loose definition of abusive (read wrong). arguably about obtaining private information What?!?! A vote on the Internet is private? A drop in rep? Especially if it is accurate info then it is not fraudulent. Not illegal in the US, not sure about other countries. But yes, the script is stupid. When the TOS restricts stupid then we all become very bored. Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 17:14
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    @AbraCadaver I consider it "abusive" in the same way that we call spam abusive. As for private information - the script may use publicly available information, but it claims to be retrieving information that is private. On Stack Overflow, that is a very bold claim - but on smaller SE sites it is not. Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 18:22
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    @S.L.Barth you're not obtaining private information. You're using information freely available to guess who might have downvoted. it's not information, it's a guess - you still might be(and as I see, sometimes are) wrong; and there's nothing abusive of the script. We might as well ban users who do a wild guess(and guess right) about who downvoted their question, deduce it from reputation changes(sometimes it happens). Moreover intent isn't harmful; it simply helps you to find the one who downvoted. The problem isn't script, the problem is the downvote culture. This answer is simply false. Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 9:59
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(...)an answerer loudly demanded a commenter explain their downvote(...)

IMO that is the source of the problem.

Anyone can downvote a question or answer for any reason and they don't have to explain it. If someone gets offended by a few downvotes in a question or answer with a positive score, they have a serious self esteem problem. If they have many downvotes in a post, though, then they have a problem with the quality of the content they are posting. Either way the problem is with them, not with the voters.

I would refer anyone who is complaining about downvotes to this discussion in the general Meta:

I've just been downvoted. How should I react?

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    I would not call that a self-esteem problem. I like to improve my answers, which is why I always ask for the reason of a downvote. In 99% of the cases, downvoters simply misunderstand the answer or the topic at hand, so I can clarify or improve my answer. It's not like we shout "who the f!ck dared downvote my sacred answer!?!!!??"; it just makes no sense to me when I put a lot of work into an explanation and someone doesn't even bother explaining why they think it's bad.
    – Columbo
    Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 14:01
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    @Columbo For every person who'll take the feedback in stride and at worst will "agree to disagree", there are 10 who will insist that whatever awful practice they perpetuate in their answer is perfectly okay. They don't usually shout "who the f..." either.
    – Louis
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:18
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    @Louis Still, no need to generalize. Although in my particular case, I can afford to care about each and every downvote because the questions I answer mostly attract professionals ;)
    – Columbo
    Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 11:08
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People assume someone downvoted them even without scripts, using the same information the script uses. Harassing someone because (you think) he down voted your post is against Be nice policy and should be handled by a moderator, scripts or no scripts:

The problem isn't necessarily the script, it's what people do with that information. People make bad assumptions about who downvoted them all the time, and this just continues that (I've seen this script be wrong on more than one occasion). The real problem is when people lash out at others about perceived votes, which is where you should flag us to step in and have a conversation with them. – Brad Larson ♦

It would also not surprise me, if person claimed they have some script just to make their guess look precise and serious. I've seen people do this too (in general, even irl), and it gets weird when it's just you and them and you know they're lying because you know they're wrong.

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I wouldn't care that much about it.

If we're talking about the script linked in comments by Cerbrus, it works only when the downvoter also posted a comment or an answer on that question. If you get a downvote and someone posts a comment criticizing your answer, you can guess that he was the downvoter even without any scripts.

Also, I doubt there's much that Stack Overflow team can do about it. It would be really hard to distinguish between HTTP requests that are made by this script, and regular requests.

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    The morale of the story of course being, don't comment when downvoting.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:30
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    I disagree. I think obtaining this information in any way is a violation of the ToS. Stating to that effect certainly is. Who voted on what is private information, and obtaining that in any way other then through the stack provided channels is against the TOS
    – Magisch
    Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:30
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    But that's exactly the danger with that script. You could comment on a question, lose rep from something completely unrelated (maybe you downvoted an answer on another question), somebody drive-by-downvotes an answer to this question and you are the one accused by the thin-skinned answerer. Commented Aug 29, 2016 at 14:30
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    @Servy When I downvote and comment, I usually say I downvoted anyway and then explain why. I never suffered negative consequences because of that. Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 9:57
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    @TomášZato The comment is mostly tongue in cheek. I very rarely have any negative consequences as a result of commenting on posts that I downvote either, although it's equally rare for people to actually try and fix their mistake, rather than just being defensive (or just plain ignoring the problem(s)), so it's often just a waste of everyone's time.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 13:08
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    At least you make the flaws of the answer clear to other readers that way, @Servy - just because they don't get fixed doesn't mean you've wasted your time. I primarily comment on downvotes for the sake of future readers who might be led astray, not for the sake of the poster.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 13:55
  • "you can guess that he was the downvoter even without any scripts". Today I have commented on question outlining mistake in it, I didn't downwote it as I expected to ether be pointed to mistake in my reasoning or answer to be deleted (which is happened later). Moments before I posted it, someone downvoted the answer. So you would guess wrong in this case. Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 14:08
  • @Revolver_Ocelot And yet people will do it anyway, which was his point.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 14:11
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    "If you get a downvote and someone posts a comment criticizing your answer, you can guess that he was the downvoter even without any scripts." Actually often enough I post a comment criticizing a contribution without having downvoted, for example if I think it could be improved, so I don't want to have to come back later and undo my downvote and that's why I do without instead but still criticize. Commented Aug 30, 2016 at 18:26
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    "you can guess that he was the downvoter" Such guesses can be wrong. See ryanyuyu' comment and the responses to it from BoltClock & T.J. Crowder.
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Aug 31, 2016 at 9:19
  • Comment moved to full-blown answer. Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 5:21
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I think SE needs to handle that like the clear violation of the TOS that it is.

As @S.L Barth explained thoroughly in his answer, this is a means to illicitly obtain private information (who voted on what) and should thus be treated like any other serious breach of the TOS.

Sorry, but while we can't control who is using it, people who are brazenly violating the TOS just to moan at people who are exercising much needed quality control is destructive on this site and needs to be nipped in the bud.

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  • I think SO only actually needs to enforce the TOS on people who misuse scripts like this. i.e. post angry non-useful comments directed at people they claim to know downvoted them. If they use it to ask for clarification / feedback without being abusive, it might be ok. (This is probably rare. Anyone using the results from the badly-written script we're talking about is probably using them in a bad way.) Commented Sep 1, 2016 at 10:05
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Is there anything that can or should be done for this particular script? Is there anything that can or should be done for any other theoretical (and potentially smarter) script that attempts the same thing?

I don't think this situation calls for any action out of the ordinary.

If someone is rudely demanding that another user justify their downvote (or saying anything rude at all, really), flag that comment as rude/offensive. If the comment simply calls out the alleged downvoter in a matter-of-fact way, how does that help anyone learn why a function is generating an NPE, or figure out a faster query? It doesn't. Flag as unconstructive.

If someone is alleged as a downvoter, whether because they revealed that fact themselves, or it was easy to put two and two together, or there was a script involved, if that person is targeted for revenge downvotes, that will show up as such if there are too many, or custom-flagged and perhaps manually adjusted if there are only a handful.

The systems for dealing with this situation's potential unwanted behavior are already in place. We do not need a new system for dealing with this situation's new technology/tool. Scripts don't flame people; people flame people.

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So, script or no script - what can we SO users really do with it?

Now that we have this question with O'Mara's great answer (even with comics!), we can just link to it. The person will hopefully see how stupid his scripts (or his guesswork) are and stop bugging others.

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