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I wanted to answer a question, but before I could, the OP deleted it. They had posted an answer themselves first, and then deleted the question. But the answer wasn't any good and I knew a better one. What to do? Since it was the OP's only post so far I didn't have any "hook" to ping them, so the only thing I could do was vote to undelete the question. Well, now the question will probably just sit there with one undelete vote until the end of times.

Now it's tempting to find some reason to ask a meta question about this question ("what can I do if....") and hope for the meta effect to do the rest. But I don't think that's the right way to go. In a general sense it made me wonder -

tl;dr Referring to a Stack Overflow post in a meta question draws attention to this post and possibly influences voting behavior. This effect can be (ab)used in multiple ways. When is it appropriate to exploit this "meta effect"?

Possible reasons to exploit the meta effect:

  • Collect sympathy upvotes for one's post. Here is an example (by which I don't want to suggest the OP did it deliberately). Unintentionally happened here. Didn't happen here, although probably intended to.
  • Try to get others to jump the close-vote bandwagon, which was deliberately done here.
  • Or the downvote bandwagon, half-deliberately done here, or here. (And many other occasions. People seem particularly upset about inexplicable upvotes).
  • Get questions deleted
  • Or, conversely, get questions or answers undeleted. Examples here and here.
  • "Undo" disputed flags. Happened here for example, unintended. Declined flags is another thing that seems to upset some people.

I frequently see a meta question in which people don't link to questions or answers they have in mind, expressly stating they want to avoid the meta effect. Should we indeed always try to avoid it, or is it sometimes justified to unleash the meta effect?

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  • This is future complicated by tags like specific-question
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 19:26
  • 5
    Closely, closely related: What to do when user deletes question before you can post answer?
    – jscs
    Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 19:27
  • 4
    I only see it as a problem if the meta post itself is influencing the action taken by the voters. For example, presenting a post and stating that it's awful, or off topic, or too broad. That's the OP's opinion, and said opinion is being spread in such a way that influences other opinions thus preventing some users from objectively judging the post. Otherwise, you're just getting a bunch of people willing to cast their votes to view a post and judge it, which isn't necessarily a bad thing,
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 19:27
  • one undelete vote until the end of times Wait do they not age away?
    – Laurel
    Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 19:29
  • dunno... unlike reopen/close votes, the "you've already voted" dialog doesn't give you a duration that you have to wait to vote again for undelete.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 19:30
  • 1
    @Laurel No, undelete votes don't age away (just like delete votes). However, posts with undelete votes are shown in a queue on the 10k moderator tools, for users to review.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 19:33
  • 2
    @KevinB True, but I think there's always "something" going on with a post (on the main site) if someone asks about it at meta. OP will probably have some opinion about this "something". It's hard to have an opinion and at the same time not influence others. Of course, OPs should always try to be fair-minded. Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 19:36
  • 4
    We need a meta-meta effect to use on people who are misusing the meta effect... Commented Jun 30, 2016 at 16:19
  • See meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/321925/…. Short version: it's better to use the Stack Overflow Close Vote Reviewers chat room, than to whip up a mob on issues. Anything for which soliciting input on a specific post is a good idea, likely can be addressed there; anything else, you really ought to be leaving it alone anyway. Commented Jun 30, 2016 at 21:45
  • 4
    If you think the question and answer would be useful for others, there's nothing stopping you posting the question and then answering it yourself. Commented Jul 1, 2016 at 5:49
  • Meta-effect seems to be the only solution if voting-based Q&A does not work at all.
    – jaco0646
    Commented Aug 3, 2016 at 23:11

3 Answers 3

17

I think a number of users are just legitimately curious about things. There are so many additional rules, nuances, and culture behind our site that are hard to learn without using meta.

Including a specific link is actually a really good way to learn how to use the site, in addition to adding clarity to your question.

By triggering the meta effect, you get a perspective beyond a hypothetical. It shows what actions real users choose to take in real situations.

Just a note: Personally, I rarely, if ever, vote on posts brought to my attention through the meta effect. I may edit some posts, or flag some chatty comments.


On the other hand, the meta effect can be used to bring the attention of the community to problems.

This includes moderation problems. However, it's important to keep in mind that the other rules still apply: if your question is crap it should get down voted, if it's a duplicate it should be closed as such, etc.

It's a bit petty to single one thing out in hopes that the meta effect will take care of things. I will admit that I have done this before (but that was an answer with plenty of content to stand on its own).

Arguably, every single question in is a plead for the meta effect. And the community likes burnination requests.

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  • 5
    I am not particularly fond of burnination requests, but certain groups certainly are. When the tag is found to not need burnination, it can also cause perfectly fine content to be cast in an unfairly negative light.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 20:48
  • @TravisJ Care to elaborate? Figuring out that the tag is off-topic may shed a negative light, but, when the tag is OK, the only thing in a negative light is the question that asked to burn it.
    – Laurel
    Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 22:06
  • 6
    Often that the tag is not off-topic is not immediately apparent. So until someone comes along to explain the actual technical topicality of the tag, it can look from voting as if the community supports the request when in fact the tag was on topic. Especially considering that there is a large group of users on meta that "likes burninate requests" in general, sometimes with disregard for the actual tag.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 22:10
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    After having given the answers a lot of though, in the end this sentence does it for me: By triggering the meta effect, you get a perspective beyond a hypothetical. It shows what actions real users choose to take in real situations. For me this means that yes, in some situations we can deliberately call on the meta effect to evaluate our own judgment against that of others. Of course, it would help to do this with an open mind, i.e. trying not to bend the general opinion in any way and willing to accept consensus going another direction. Commented Jul 2, 2016 at 20:17
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Please...don't refer to the Meta Effect as if it were some sort of hose which could be sprayed in some arbitrary direction, or as if it were some militia group which could be called upon in dire situations.

It doesn't feel right.

Specifically, to answer this question:

When is it appropriate to exploit this "meta effect"?

It really isn't and I want to say never do this intentionally, but it's a very common occurrence around these parts. I personally believe it to be a symptom of discussion moreso than anything else, since it can quickly mobilize a group of active users to take action on a question or answer, whether that action is ultimately constructive or ultimately destructive.

I've seen it go both ways - there were good instances for the Meta Effect, and there were very, very bad instances of the Meta Effect. I've certainly tripped it on at least one occasion, but the intent was never to force the community to take action on that post at that time, but rather to draw a broader consensus.

TL;DR: It's a symptom of more constructive discussion more times than not. I personally adamantly disagree with invoking it intentionally as I feel it has the power to cause more harm than good.


Let's answer these points in turn, as to why one may think it's appropriate to leverage the Meta Effect.

  • Collect sympathy upvotes for one's post.

There's nothing worse than someone asking for upvotes on their post. Doesn't really matter what for, either - it's just...tacky. However, I will say that in all three of your examples, the Meta Effect was happenstance more than anything else (and I even made reference to that in one of those posts).

I will admit that a lot of people discuss their specific question or specific answer here, which comes with its own tag for it ( and ), but their larger intent is to understand the rationale as to why their question/answer got downvoted more than it is to collect pity points...to which, I wish I could just dupe-close as this question on Meta Stack Exchange which nicely sums it all up.

  • Try to get others to jump the close-vote bandwagon

Not a fan of this approach either, since it comes across as people feeling like and behaving like this sort of voting is socially acceptable.

But there's a fine line, or the Stack Overflow Close Vote Room couldn't exist, could it?

I will say that there are a lot of people with close (and delete) privileges that will pile on extra votes to do one of those two actions just because everyone else seems to be doing that, too - enough so that I have to spell them out explicitly and apologize to every other person with those privileges that doesn't fall into that pattern.

Those who vote for the sake of voting aren't the sort of people you want to present with a question to see if the question is suitable for the site, since they're not making a decision based on that. Presenting a bad question to a lot of people will have its intended effect of that question being closed, potentially deleted, and if it's egregious enough on the part of the OP, having them question-banned, but that sort of decision making is what you want slightly more level-headed members handling, which is why I'm personally more comfortable with the SOCVR than someone posting that on Meta.

  • Or the downvote bandwagon

This is just as bad, honestly. "I think this question should be downvoted and you should too!"

Again, in the example you reference, the question is very much in the camp of, "Why doesn't the system delete these things?", as opposed to the camp of, "Why don't we downvote these things?"

  • Or, conversely, get questions or answers undeleted

The review queues should be unsurfacing questions (maybe answers? I haven't been in the queues for months) that have been deleted and subsequently edited, which would make them more appealing to be undeleted. I would say that the queues alone aren't the most ideal way to get the message out that this question is worth undeleting, but it is preferable to the Meta post that we get from time to time.

  • "Undo" disputed flags

Disputed flags can't be "undone", nor are they actively detrimental to one's flagging privileges (and I think we both know this), but these questions are more to gain closure on why the community was split on this decision, which goes back to the specific question/answer discussions which are largely okay to have anyway.

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  • 1
    I'm with you except for where you claim "that sort of decision making is what you want slightly more level-headed members handling, which is why I'm personally more comfortable with the SOCVR than someone posting that on Meta." I find absolutely no evidence that members of the SOCVR are more responsible with regard to votes or more level-headed than the average Meta reader. Putting aside the fact that there is much overlap between the two groups, my experience is that SOCVR members are far more radicalized and reactionary than the typical Meta denizen.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 1, 2016 at 6:03
  • 1
    I agree with @CodyGray's reservation about the SOCVR, but I totally share your feeling about abusing the meta affect as a tool to collect sympathizers. This has always been my opinion, but I tried to put my question in a somewhat neutral tone. I hope your answer expresses a broader consensus. Commented Jul 1, 2016 at 7:42
  • 1
    @CodyGray - I fully agree. Sometimes you can even see a set of them all commenting simultaneously on a single answer where it is clearly more of a mob mentality than being "level-headed". The examples aren't hard to find, are rather numerous, and here is one from last week: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/326818/1026459 (the comments section, not the answer text itself).
    – Travis J
    Commented Jul 1, 2016 at 8:19
  • 1
    @CodyGray: I actually do agree with you, but not having spent any time in that room nor really perusing their less-favorable coordinated actions, I'm in no position to libel them. I should say that I'm more comfortable with them taking these actions since, at best it gives us a place to audit the actions of a coordinated group of members, and those members are of sound mind, and at worst it makes it easier to identify patterns of abuse.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 1, 2016 at 14:14
  • Question remains if being radicalized and reactionary is a bad thing per se. We are an active room and perform a lot of actions. With that amount of work done, mistakes do happen. Which we are happy to repair when brought to our attention. I'll put some extra guidance in our FAQ to not jump on the band wagon if that is what bothers the four of you. Everybody happy.
    – rene
    Commented Jul 1, 2016 at 21:07
  • +1 for the millitary reserves / national guard imagery. Would this vast meta army make meta a potential Oligarchy??! Commented Apr 11, 2017 at 19:10
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The meta effect isn't always negative, or positive. It is simply increased community attention, much like the Hot Network Questions list.

Sometimes it makes sense for the community to, as a group, see an example of a scenario and as a result many of the users viewing the example will action it depending on their ability to do so.

In the case where the community does view the example post, sometimes it is the case where it was obvious putting forward the example that it would get negative attention - or positive attention.

In these instances the reason for the increased attention is very important. If the situation being addressed is literally related to the exact post for some reason or another, there is no avoiding the community attention. The positive or negative action will do as it does in those situations, and that is simply the result of the quality of the post and aspects of the example.

However, if the situation being addressed is about a broad behavior or problem that is seen in many areas, it is not advisable to use a single post as an example as the issue isn't localized to that one post. Doing so can cause undue negative burden to the user of that post who has fallen into what can sometimes be a systemic issue. This can also be excessively positive when used on an example of a "good post" - that said, I do not believe extra upvotes are problematic in the case of good examples (just my opinion.. but not one has ever become jaded as a result of a few extra upvotes).

Given that addressing a behavior or problem which is widespread can inflict the meta effect (by either tearing the post down or propping it up) it is often not advised to include a single example, but there are also no rules against this. If the example is good, and it benefits from increased attention, then over time it would have probably benefited anyway. If the example is bad, and it suffers from increased attention, then over time it probably would have languished anyway.

tl;dr; The meta effect is essentially increased attention. Invoking this can benefit or harm a post through increasing the attention it receives - but that post would have had increased attention over longer and longer time frames anyway.

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  • While I agree with what you're saying here, your answer is more about when it's useful to refer to individual posts and if you do it, to take the consequences for granted. My question is whether (and when) referring to individual post for the sole purpose of influencing voting behavior can be permissible. Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 20:50
  • @GertArnold - Your question was, "when was it appropriate to unleash/exploit the meta effect". My answer was, that it is not necessarily possible to exploit as it is just increased attention which may go either way.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 20:52
  • @GertArnold - Also, which of your examples abused or exploited this effect as opposed to simply benefiting or being subject to the effect?
    – Travis J
    Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 20:55
  • One of the examples explicitly tried to exploit the effect. Of the others, I can't be sure. People don't tend to be explicit about it, but sometimes it seems pretty obvious. Of course it can never be more than an effort to achieve some desired effect. The question is not whether it's even possible to control the effect, but whether it's appropriate to try. Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 21:08
  • @GertArnold - Being subject to the effect (or acknowledging it) is not abusing or exploiting it. The author of that post states that they are aware linking the post may cause the meta effect, but their confusion was whether or not there was a systemic problem, note their comment "It seemed to me like a failure of the system to me so I was curious". I explain this in my answer above, that it is best to discuss the actual systemic problem itself rather than give a single instance of something that is widespread. In this situation, the answer to the question was that the problem is widespread.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jun 29, 2016 at 21:52
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    Much of your post is reasonable, but the assertion that the meta effect is nothing other than increased attention is wrong. It is increased attention from a specific section of the community with certain distinct voting commonalities. Rather than simply speeding up the natural process of a post collecting votes or flags or comments by the organic interaction of the post with ordinary visitors, the meta effect focuses specific interest groups and primes their reactions in specific ways, both of which can substantially, even radically, distort the resulting votes. Commented Jun 30, 2016 at 4:22
  • @NathanTuggy - Elegantly put.
    – Travis J
    Commented Jun 30, 2016 at 9:07

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