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This is related but I think not identical to: Is it appropriate to caution a poster about their tone?

I (and another user) have been engaged with a new poster whose question was phrased as "why is R doing [this] wrong"? I think I eventually figured out what their real confusion was, but there was a lot of back-and-forth along the lines of "but R is wrong". I would love to suggest to them that (1) saying that "R is doing it wrong" is likely to antagonize high-rep users (and thus reduce one's chances of getting help), (2) it's more constructive to ask (and think) along the lines of, "this seems to be wrong, but surely an R function that's been used by hundreds of thousands of people for two decades can't be wrong, what am I missing"?

I'm afraid of coming off as condescending. Suggestions for how to handle the situation/phrase a comment?

(I wasn't sure whether to provide the link, for fear of the meta effect, but upvoted answers to this question suggest it's OK to do so, so here it is.)

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    What is your intended relevance in mentioning "high rep users"? "Low rep" users can be antagonised by a lack of information too, as can "middle rep" users.
    – James
    Commented Aug 15, 2018 at 21:55
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    Just meant to indicate that we are both reasonably experienced, have a sense of SO norms, etc... edited.
    – Ben Bolker
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 1:00
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    I'm afraid of coming off as condescending.? Why? You don't know these people. As long as you're not rude it really doesn't matter. If they interpret your comment as condescending, move on. You don't need that in your life.
    – Bugs
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 13:38

2 Answers 2

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The answer seems to be in your question:

(2) it's more constructive to ask (and think) along the lines of, "this seems to be wrong, but surely...

Paraphrasing this in an answer:

This may not be intuitive, but...

Or something like:

While the behaviour you see may seem incorrect, ...

Or even:

Your code is not applying the logic you expect because ...

Don't try and change OP's attitude. A single answer or comment isn't going to change a person's attitude to programming, or life. What you can do is write a meaningful answer that is helpful to the community. And to OP too, if they are willing to listen.

Comments which don't help clarify the problem or answer can be safely ignored. Don't feel the need to respond.

In short, answer the question, not the questioner.

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    Yes, this is what I do all the time.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 10:23
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    "Don't try and change OP's attitude. A single answer or comment isn't going to change a person's attitude to programming, or life." If not us then who will? Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 11:30
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    "If not us then who will?" - Not our problem. Seriously. Down-vote and move on.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 12:09
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    @StephenC: I take a different view. Ultimately, as members of our industry, it does affect us and it is our problem. To some extent. Maybe. Ignoring it for decades, taking no responsibility for trying to change it, is why the industry has become saturated with whatever-you-want-to-call-it. Slopey shoulder is ultimately self-defeating I guess is my point Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 12:31
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    Well good luck to you. Unfortunately, StackExchange (the company) does not see this as the community's role. They would prefer us to be welcoming.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 12:36
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    @StephenC That you think that helping people understand how to ask good questions, be polite, and not turn off other people with an antagonistic tone isn't welcoming, says rather a lot. Saying that you'd rather refuse to engage with people at all, and feel that that's more welcoming them helping them, indicates that you don't seem to understand what the word means.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 20:42
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    @Servy - The problem is the "welcoming-ness" is in the eye the person being welcomed. (Indeed, this is the metric that the StackExchange corporate is using ... in their surveys, etc) Helping someone to be a good citizen when they are not interested in learning is unwelcoming in their eyes.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 23:15
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit, Re: If not us then who will? The way I think of it, will changing OP's attitude help future visitors? Given the wide-ranging and multi-faceted attitudes out there in the world, I don't think it's useful to adapt answers to include user-specific attitude-changing / preachy elements. Maybe in a chat room, but not on a Q&A site.
    – jpp
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 9:53
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    @jpp: Though I'm not necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with it right now, that's a strong argument. Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 10:02
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    It's also interesting that you think that literally every single question author considers literally anyone telling them how to improve their question, regardless of how they do it, to be unwelcome. I know for a fact that that's not true, as many have said that they're very grateful for people helping them ask better questions. You are in fact being very unwelcoming to lots of people by explicitly telling them to leave our community for trying to help others.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 13:20
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    1) People asking questions are not the ones who need to be welcoming. When someone knows at your front door, you welcome them. They don't welcome you. 2) I am not saying they don't need to be polite, civil, read the guidance on how to ask appropriate questions. But if they don't, it is not our job to teach them. I don't know whose job it is. But since >>our<< attempts to educate people are perceived as unwelcoming, and (per management's view) it is the perception that counts, we have little choice but to wash our hands. Down-vote and move on.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 13:29
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    @StephenC People answering questions don't own SO. It's not their house. By that logic SO employees are the only people that need to be welcoming. In actuality everyone should be acting professionally towards everyone, it's not up to question authors to do what they want and people answering or commenting to be the only ones with a burden to act appropriately. And yes, it's no one's job to teach them how to act appropriately, but people are welcome and encouraged to help others if they want to.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 13:37
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    Your assertion that no one should help anyone else, ever, is, frankly, extremely unwelcoming and inconsiderate. Have some empathy for others, would you. SO didn't say that everyone's attempt to help everyone, ever, is inappropriate. Certain things that people were doing were inappropriate; the goal is to have people help others more effectively, not not at all. There is of course some disagreement between the community and SO as to what is and isn't appropriate, but that doesn't mean no one should be helping anyone, ever. Even SO isn't saying that.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 13:37
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    @Servy - Frankly, you keep on putting words into my mouth. I am not going to debate you anymore. This is about teaching people how to behave, not about helping them.
    – Stephen C
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 13:43
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    @StephenC Teaching is one way to help someone, it's of course not the only way. That said, the question is about telling people that they've structured their question in such a way that it's not conducive to a good answer, and that it's likely to turn off others from answering as a result. That's not really teaching (at most you could argue that it's teaching someone how to ask questions better). Either way, that is helping, whether you consider that teaching or not.
    – Servy
    Commented Aug 17, 2018 at 13:46
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I've been on this site for 3 years and I've managed to earn 9 reputation so I know a thing or two about how people handle being told that high rep users are less likely to help if X.

Instead of telling the poster that the High rep users will be less likely to help them if their tone is bad, try helping the poster understand that programming languages usually don't execute incorrectly. It would also be helpful to show the poster the new code of conduct. It would probably help them if you showed them some examples of good questions and solid comments. It takes a while to figure out what a comment is actually supposed to be used for on Stack Exchange.

The poster's tone sounds like it's just coming from being super new to programming in general. This is what I'd expect a college student to say in their first month of their first programming class.

I actually heard of a lot of commentary like this when in my first matlab class.

It might also be helpful to look into what to do when someone is tilted. From my experience in gaming, you generally don't talk to tilted people till they get untilted. If you do have to talk to tilted people, you generally want to help them along with their thinking by asking questions and being patient. This is usually best done after their goal is achieved. On SO, I'd just suggest taking themselves out of the code for a bit by look at something 20 feet away for 20 seconds. That should help them cool off significantly.

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