-21

Edit for context, since the comments are more about this specific case than about the bigger issue

I did submit an answer to the question. My answer is more general, and the other answer is more specific. The specific explanation I wanted to add, only makes sense for the specific answer. After my edit was rejected, my general answer got a few extra votes, that maybe would have been awarded to someone else, if my edit had been approved. I want to clarify this, in case someone wants to downvote me for being too self-serving. I honestly think that this is a problem that affects other people too.

Here's my rejected edit. This is not the first time completely valid edits (IMHO of course) have been rejected. The reasons given for rejection does not make any sense to me. (edit: The answers to this question by @rene and @Braiam gives some good insight to why the rejection reasons are problematic)

I don't expect everybody to agree that this case was an incorrect decision. I don't know if the reviewers read the relevant answers and comments to the original question, but I highly doubt so.

Here's why I think this is a bigger problem than just my hurt pride:

  1. Some of the reviewer have a rate of 50–70% rejections. That's high. It discourages new users from trying to improve the site. If you spend 15+ minutes on an edit that improves an existing answer, it's very discouraging when it gets rejected.

  2. Once you get the privilege to review other peoples edits, your own edits are also immediately approved. (if I understand correctly). So you only see one side of the process. This is also true for most people on the meta site.

Suggestion: When you get a suggested review rejected, there's a nag message telling you that you did wrong. This should also be the case when reviewers have a rate of rejection that is substantially higher (or lower probably) than the average. Reviewers have good intentions, but being very lenient or harsh is clearly a sign that they are either super sloppy or out of touch with the general consensus. Edit reviews are final, and as such it's more important that they are fair and well informed compared to down-votes etc.

(edit: The description of the problem is the main point of this question. The proposed "solution" is just meant as a starting point for discussion. Obviously, even minor changes to the system involves considerable work, planning, testing etc.)

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  • 17
    Did you read the reject reasons actually? As mentioned you probably should have written your own answer instead of editing the existing one. Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 14:10
  • 20
    Reviewers that have a rejection rate of 50-70% are a great benefit, specially in a queue known for its robo-reviewing. I really hope that discourages some of those mindless editors.
    – rene
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 14:12
  • Did you read the original thread? I did write my own answer. But this part was not relevant there.
    – Håken Lid
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 14:13
  • 6
    A nag message for those approving substantially more than others, maybe. Those are a real problem. The other way around? Abstain! Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 14:14
  • 1
    @πάνταῥεῖ the addition in this case doesn't answer the question... the asker isn't asking how to figure out what url it should use to load a personalized image, but why "{% static 'images/jumbotron.jpg' %}" doesn't gets replaced with the url.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 14:19
  • 2
    As I say in my post. I think the problem looks very different from "downstairs" vs "upstairs". The system today is great if the purpose is to discourage people from contributing!
    – Håken Lid
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 14:19
  • @rene You should add that as an answer, and I'll accept it. The downvotes on this question leads me to conclude that your comment represents the majority opinion here.
    – Håken Lid
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 14:21
  • 1
    The majority maybe, but there is a significant (and growing) minority that agree with you Haken.
    – RubberDuck
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 14:30
  • 2
    @RubberDuck I sure hope so, because I'm starting to understand why there are so many blogposts etc. complaining about stackoverflow being unfriendly to newcomers.
    – Håken Lid
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 14:38
  • 2
    There are still much more users here that are willing to help out instead of complaining. But in the sheer crap they see every day they sometimes make a mistake. Sorry about that man.
    – rene
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 14:43
  • 1
    @rene I participate in reviews as well, so I know that there's a lot of very low quality stuff submitted. But when someone gets their question flagged as "unclear", "too wide" etc, they at least get an opportunity to improve. With rejected edits, it's "I disapprove", and you have just wasted maybe 15 minutes.
    – Håken Lid
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 14:57
  • 4
    It won't be long until you have enough rep to be able to edit without it entering a review queue. Which does not mean that you can do anything you want, your edit will re-activate the Q+A and put it back on the front page of [tag] experts who are supposed to review it. They are likely to understand your edit better, ymmv. Until then, you'll have to put up with the kind of reviewers who are pretty nervous about sweeping changes. Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 17:05
  • @HansPassant Thanks for the info. I think I'll leave this issue for now. Maybe I'll start a new discussion thread when I have first hand experience from the "other side" as well.
    – Håken Lid
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 17:34
  • If you thought the original answer was incomplete, you should have posted your own answer that encapsulated the information in that answer -- you can even quote it flat-out -- and included whatever else you thought was missing. Competition between correct and correct-but-incomplete answers is totally acceptable here, and it's especially easy on such a new post.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 19:30
  • 1
    See also: Is adding more info to another persons answer bad?
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 7, 2016 at 8:52

4 Answers 4

7

Your edit should have been rejected (as it was) and if found useful by the OP or members of community - edited back (as it happened now).

There is absolutely no way to see how the added text relates to the text in the post or question without spending a significant time reading the question, comments, and answer. At best this look like audit, or just invalid edit.

For your particular edit:

Even after doing so, it is not clear why the text needs to be added to that post. There is already a link that explains what relative/absolute URLs are. The suggested text would fit much nicer as an answer to this question, i.e., in form of decision guide.

Alternatively your own answer could be made complete and then this section would organically fit there. Note that a "To fix ... follow ...other answers" remark makes the answer almost NAA (what if other answers got removed?). It is a better practice to make each answer to stand on its own and link to the source of the answer like "do this as shown in {link from 'share' button of other answer}".

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6

I would have happily rejected your suggested edit for being a response to the OP instead of an attempt to move useful information from a comment into the post.

The reason for that is the lack of seeing that comment on the answer:

Comment: I wrote this extra explanation in a comment, but it fits better with this answer.

OK, great, let's see how you moved those comments into the answer:

comments on answer

Obviously I now have to figure out how the edit and the comments line-up to be a valid edit. That is hard. And then this adding of on first sight non-related content is often used as an audit so user are more likely to reject in these cases.

But most of the reviewers and myself were wrong in this case as explained by Braiam in the other answer. You did a great job.

I'm sorry this has happened and I hope you get to 2K quickly so your edits no longer have to pass through that nasty suggested edit queue where so many robo-reviewers are active in trying to keep the quality up.

I can't guarantee this won't happen again but with maybe even more guidance in the suggested edit comment enough reviewers that pay some attention will notice and understand your good intentions. If I have to be punished for rejecting to much suggested edits is left for you or a moderator to decide.

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  • I was assuming that the edit would be approved, so probably could have paid more attention to the 'explain edit' box. But as someone who has worked professionally as a copy editor and desk journalist in a daily newspaper, the concept of explaining and reviewing edits is very strange to me. Your answer helps me understand why giving a good explanation for suggested edits is in fact very important.
    – Håken Lid
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 15:16
  • Here's another idea for improvement of the review process. In addition to reject or approve, reviewers could flag a suggested edit with unclear reason for edit or something to that effect. This will give an editor a chance to improve the edit itself or improve the explanation.
    – Håken Lid
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 15:19
  • 2
    It would still be rejected because review tasks are not designed to be edited. Not much harm is done, IMHO, when an edit is rejected. If you feel you can improve you can always give it a second try. In cases where it is crucial to get an edit in there are plenty of chatrooms around that have members with enough rep to help out. And yes, that are also the ones that reject edits.
    – rene
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 15:24
  • A third on hold - more info needed option has the advantage that it could reduce both reflex rejects and reflex approvals, since reviewers have a third option.
    – Håken Lid
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 15:57
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    @HåkenLid Well, you should have provided that "more info" in the summary from the start. And anyway, now we should figure out whether your summary is incomplete or your edit simply wrong? There's always the option of resubmitting after fixing the summary, if that's what is needed... Food for thought: How would "hold for submitter to amend", reject and approve interact? Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 22:15
  • @Deduplicator It should remove it from the review queue until the editor have changed the proposed edit or retracted it. After the change, it's considered a new edit. It's would probably not be used very often, but it could be nice when a proposed edit has substantial content, but the summary reason is unclear.
    – Håken Lid
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 22:43
  • @HåkenLid: So, it's a reject with stronger notification? Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 23:02
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I'll prefix this by saying that I'm not entirely sure I would have approved your edit; it's fairly dubious, and it's hard to be sure the same benefit to the site couldn't be achieved by e.g. writing a new answer that happened to cover that concern alongside answering the rest of the question. As such, only an extremely solid edit summary and a very clear set of comments would really have a reliable chance of getting this past even diligent reviewers. So for your specific case, it seems that everyone involved made understandable mistakes. Hopefully you'll all be able to learn from this.

But I disagree rather strongly with both points you made in favor of considering this a larger problem. Regarding #1, there's a subtle reason for many reviewers' high rejection rates that I'm not surprised you're unaware of, but that changes the whole context: they (and I, whenever I spend time in the queue) Skip all uncontroversial edits. So edits that are boringly fine are approved by others, while edits that are at risk of being wrongly approved (and there are a lot) get as much negative attention as possible to minimize that risk. (There are also a few good edits at risk of being wrongly rejected, but that's a far smaller population.) So in general, it's incorrect to suppose that reviewers with high rejection rates are hurting the site in any way; rather, chances are they are some of the most helpful and hardworking reviewers in a troubled queue. (Skipping half or more of reviews means one has to review two or three times as many total before cap.)

Your note about "discouraging" users sounds an awful lot like the people who complain about downvotes or close votes. Rejecting bad edits, and discouraging those who submit them, is by design! That's a good thing! And an occasional sharp reminder that clearly communicating rationale is important for cooperation (by way of rejection because of an unclear edit summary) is unpleasant, but still useful.

Regarding #2, it's certainly plausible that an edit reviewer who only spends time on one or two sites and seldom if ever submits wiki edit suggestions can lose a bit of the mindset of a suggester. But I'm not entirely sure why it would matter, except for a few rare very tricky edits where it's necessary to reconstruct the thought process in order to guess why an edit is acceptable. This is arguably not worth worrying too much about, since an edit that is that difficult to approve is deeply flawed in some sense. And some reviewers do remain active on other sites, or simply submitted a great many edits before they hit 2k.

Conceivably, a reviewer who never approves anything at all could be notified that they're a bit less than optimal, since there are suggestions that are getting wrongly rejected as well, but there's enough bad suggested edits getting robo-approved on SO for several reviewers to legitimately do nothing but Reject bad edits and Skip all the others. So I don't think a warning is either justified in the majority of cases, or worth coding, given the more serious systemic problems in that queue alone.

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  • Writing a "new answer" with that content is totally wrong. It isn't even a partial answer to the question.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 23:30
  • 2
    @Braiam: It's part of an answer. So it would need to be put in with a new answer that's complete in its own right. (The OP actually already had an answer; I haven't checked whether it needs the same general fix, already had it, used a different approach, or what.) I've clarified that I did not mean (in this case at least) that it's standalone. Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 23:37
  • HE POSED HIS OWN ANSWER. Are we reading the same Q&A? I gave a complete and throughout analysis of all the context of that edit, read it. Is just another answer to this question.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 7, 2016 at 1:37
  • @Braiam: I read your answer twice already, and upvoted it. (Although given that it's still at +7/-7 there appears to be a good deal of disagreement with the analysis in general.) I'm not seeing the contradiction. It would be perfectly reasonable for the OP to write two answers with different approaches; this is rare, but explicitly allowed. Alternatively, their answer could be expanded to include both the quick fix and the more complete one, and the note about relative URLs stuck into the former. My point is simply that such a cohesive lump of instruction can certainly be put in other answers. Commented Feb 7, 2016 at 1:47
  • Now, and here's the thing I don't understand. How the edit answers the question? I can't see that.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 7, 2016 at 12:59
0

Note: I've added the piece you were trying to edit into the post.

In this case, for that edit, after reading the question and all the answers, I have to side with you. This is a substantial improvement on an answer that doesn't specifically target the problem on the question, but expands the usefulness of the answer itself. The kneejerk reaction is kind of expected, since reviewers tend to reject whatever looks too much to feel comfortable to approve. I myself, would spend at least couple of minutes deciding what to do, and approve it, like one of the reviewers did.

Now, why would approve it? Lets check the question:

Why isn't django isn't parsing and replacing the template tags in my css file?

Your answer explains why it doesn't, and how you can coerce django into it. The answer you tried to edit just tells the user to not use templates and directly link the image instead. Now, you would expect that by now most web programmers know how browser parses urls (relative, absolute, with domain, etc.), but in the case they don't know, the answer can leave them scratching their heads in disbelieve. Your edit explained this bit so people don't solve a problem to have another, which is a good thing.

Reviewers were given 3 minutes window to do whatever they have to do to take an informed decision with the edit they are reviewing. If they aren't willing to do so, then we have a problem.

Now, about your specific "solution" I don't think it would fly. Reviewers approve many crappy edits all the time and reject valid edits at the same time. Yours was one valid that was caught in the middle. You are not the only one. But I think that a stronger guidance that focus on make reviewers take better informed decisions instead of just "react", should be preffered.

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  • 1
    If that answer doesn't fit, or is unclear shouldn't it just be down voted? And I don't see that comment from the OP on that answer, so if I would have stepped out of review I would have to hunt down that comment? Or be a mind reader what the suggest-edit comment meant with I left a comment somewhere
    – rene
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 14:46
  • 1
    @rene the answers solves the problem. Period. It may need a bit more to prevent problems down the road for uninformed users that don't know how browser parse urls (is another issue altogether), which is why the "edit" button is there.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 14:48
  • 1
    @rene the comment is here stackoverflow.com/questions/35240070/… not as explicative as the edit itself, and given that OP at first asked "I didn't quite get your suggestion to remove the colon" seems that OP may not be very familiar with CSS.
    – Braiam
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 14:58
  • @Braiam Yes, that's the reason why I thought it should be added to the answer itself. Lines of code and point by point explanations are hard to read in comments, since the formatting options are more limited.
    – Håken Lid
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 15:04
  • @Braiam thanks for the answer. I agree with your analysis. I thought it would be too self serving and distract from the bigger point if I had included long explanation of why I disagree with the rejection in the question itself.
    – Håken Lid
    Commented Feb 6, 2016 at 15:08

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