56

I found a question (10K link) with downvotes, I believe its cause IMHO this question isn't that hard to begin with, the answer to the question as it stands is very clear, and I think that's the reason for why it has downvotes. As I keep on reading, I find this comment:

+1 just because I know how hard it is to ask questions on here as a new user. Don't let the downvotes discourage you from continued learning

The users that have been here on Stack Overflow for a while know what the up-vote stands for: This question shows research effort; it is useful and clear.

Should we really encourage new users to post low-quality type of questions in the near future? I don't think we should, but it could be also the case that I am misinterpreting the complexity of the question and commentator is right by saying this (possibly up-voting, but I won't assume it).

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  • 50
    It's appalling and very unfortunate that this user is rewarding people for bad behavior, but there isn't really much that you can do, other than voting in a helpful manner yourself.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 15:32
  • 13
    It's pretty clear from the policies, that upvoting shouldn't be used for sentiments with new users, but be based on quality of the question/answer. Up-/downvotes are for content, regardless of the user, their rep respectively. Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 15:42
  • 2
    I understand that as a new user it might be somewhat difficult to understand how to post a good question, I take me as exhibit A. And I know down-votes feel bad, but I felt somewhat aggravated by the comment; It's like when a father doesn't want to "scold" their kids in a constructive manner and just lets them do as they please.
    – Just Do It
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 15:42
  • 2
    IMO, the question should be closed as off topic because, unless I'm reading it wrong, it's ultimately a typo that's unlikely to be useful to anyone in the future. (The code in question works exactly as it's written. Removing the MessageBox.Show to stop the message box being shown is the solution.)
    – theB
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 15:46
  • bah it's okay... unfortunately, in the end what that user did hindered more than it help... I see there's already more DVs on that question, probably enough to counterbalance the +1 given.... "hooray" for meta effect I guess?
    – Patrice
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 16:00
  • 3
    @Patrice Well, for this one question, yes, but not for all of the other bad questions that that user is upvoting for the same reason (whether they comment as such or not).
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 16:02
  • 4
    @Servy fair point... but we can't really start looking into ALL the reasons for wrong voting now can we? (unless, god forbid, we actually end up forcing comments on every vote.... shivers)
    – Patrice
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 16:03
  • 3
    @Patrice Like I said earlier, there's nothing that we can do. I'm just pointing out that there's still a serious problem here, one that we can't do anything about. The meta effect can mitigate the problem every once in a while, but the problem is much bigger than what the meta effect can do to resolve.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 16:05
  • 1
    I'm getting more info form OP to see if I can salvage the question through an edit
    – Just Do It
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 16:10
  • 13
    Sympathy voting has always been around. A simple "Use a bool variable" comment from him would have been much more helpful, instead the OP got a lousy +1 :) Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 16:26
  • Suggested an edit, hopefully I was able to fully express OP's problem, conversation can be found in question's comments, if you feel like you can make a better edit, please do. I feel responsible for this meta-effect.
    – Just Do It
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:03
  • Well at the same time, you shouldn't encourage him to post incomplete questions either, if you visit the question you will see that Instead of rewarding a bad question, I've been trying to fix it so OP can fully express his problem and hopefully get it solved @LightnessRacesinOrbit This is actual help, I doubt that up-voting out of sympathy is actual "help"
    – Just Do It
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:11
  • 2
    @xPeke The quoted comment is really all that's relevant here. Nobody really needs to know anything else about the question to participate in this discussion.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 20, 2015 at 14:49
  • 1
    This post and its answers show no source of research. Cite no historical precedence. Nods towards no past discussions. Links to no mSO or MSE posts. It is mostly opinion based revolving around conjecture related to one post and making broad sweeping and unfounded claims. There is no data or precedence cited which would lead any credibility to this post or the answers here. It is one question out of 10 million.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 20, 2015 at 19:40
  • 3
    @TravisJ Please explain how trying to understand SO's rules is mostly opinion based. I am not judging anyone nor claiming anything on anyone, if anything my question was about if whether we should or should not upvote out of empathy. If there where precedence of the issue it wouldn't have been posted, question linked has been deleted I'm sure with your rep you can see this deleted question so you can get that credibility this post seems to lack of. It cant be one question out of 10 million if you said a couple of sentences ago that it nods to past discussions.
    – Just Do It
    Commented Oct 20, 2015 at 20:16

8 Answers 8

49

Obviously not, upvotes have one purpose and one purpose only: Reward clear, useful and well researched content. Maybe sometimes people are quick on the trigger of downvote, but two wrongs don't make a right, so use your votes for their intended purpose.

SO should not be about some arbitrary popularity contest, but about creating the highest quality QA possible. So any means to encouraging cluttering posts with low quality posts (which happens if people get net rep gain from garbage posts) are decidedly counterproductive.

5
  • Both up-voted answers are good for me, but this one was more formal, hence why I chose it as an answer.
    – Just Do It
    Commented Oct 20, 2015 at 14:18
  • 2
    two wrongs don't make a right Hm. They usually do not but this is a counter-example!
    – TaW
    Commented Oct 20, 2015 at 17:38
  • 6
    What are you thoughts on simply refraining from voting at all on posts which have already received a significant number of downvotes? I often abstain when I feel the point has gotten across.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 20, 2015 at 19:02
  • 4
    @jpmc26 I usually don't vote on very low rating posts since they are already filtered and marked as not useful which means the function of the downvotes is already satisfied. I see my votes as tools to induce net gain for site visitors trying to determine whats worth looking at.
    – Magisch
    Commented Oct 20, 2015 at 19:12
  • @jpmc26 I think this is important for new users. As you say the message is sent, so no need to completely put them off the site. They could still improve and make positive contributions later on, but not if they get hit by a tidal wave of negativity.
    – user4081625
    Commented Aug 23, 2017 at 17:22
60

Yes, of course, we should upvote useful content, and downvote useless content. The tooltips on the icons, as well as common sense, all indicate this.

Unfortunately there is a growing cabal of people trying to be "helpful", encouraging as many "newbies" as possible to stay on the site at all costs, upvoting to counteract someone else's downvote, voting to attempt achieval of some absolute final score, upvoting out of sympathy, downvoting out of spite… it's human nature that in any sufficiently large groups, silly people will appear.

Sadly, we can do nothing about that, except consume copious quantities of alcohol.

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  • 1
    Yep, my point exactly - that's why we have the tooltips. I agree that one should NOT do whatever it takes to keep newbies. I don't agree that one should not try to help people become decent members of the community. That's in the FAQ. The other half of the problem is the people that use their votes to keep out people who are not worthy by their standards. Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:42
  • 18
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit More of a concern than just the rep is question rate limiting/banning. Sympathy upvotes will meant that a user continually posting bad content will either be posting a lot more content (at a higher rate) before getting banned, or even worse, not getting banned at all and be able to continually post bad content. That matters far more than the rep. The pity upvotes can also prevent the questions from being deleted, if they merit it, or delay the point at which they can get deleted.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:57
  • 2
    Ahem As I said several times over, I'm emphatically on the "don't vote to be nice" side too. Vote if it is good, downvote if it is bad, leave a comment when possibl to help people figure out what on earth they're doing. Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:58
  • That's what I tried, sadly I couldn't avoid the meta effect. @JasonMc92
    – Just Do It
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:59
  • 6
    "except consume copious quantities of alcohol" I'm detecting a trend in Lightness's answers...
    – matt
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 18:59
-3

People can upvote for whatever reason they like, so long as it's not vote fraud and/or serial upvoting.

The best way of avoiding sympathy upvoting is to avoid casting downvotes that are perceived as unjustified. This can be done by not casting downvotes, or making sure that if the question is likely to get sympathy upvotes, there's a good explanation in a comment as to what's wrong with the question.

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    In my view, especially for newcomer's questions, once there's a score of -1, that's sufficient. It makes the point that the question is not good, and the constructive process of commenting to get the question fixed can begin. Or the question can be left clearly marked as not good (it wouldn't have a negative score if it was good — at least in theory) and close voted so that it is put on hold. There's no need to stack up the negativity. Maybe down-voters on negatively scored questions should be charged a rep point (like in the days of yore; down-votes on questions were not always free). Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 0:29
  • 3
  • 4
    @JonathanLeffler So then by the same token there's no reason to upvote a post that's already at +1, and we should charge rep for users to upvote posts that have a score higher than 0, correct?
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 2:01
  • 1
    @Servy I often look for questions with the highest net score in a tag. I rarely look for questions with the lowest net score in tag. So it's not identical. Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 2:07
  • 10
    And yet questions at -1 still show up on the homepage, isn't a sufficiently strong signal to a lot of people that the question has serious problems, doesn't allow the question to be deleted quickly if it merits deletion, don't send a strong signal to the user that the post has serious problems (as opposed to just one person thinking that it has problems) doesn't properly indicate to the post ban algorithm that the post has serious problems, etc. Conversely, SO isn't here for people to just trawl the top voted content; it's here so that people can find the solution to the problem they have
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 2:12
  • @Servy did you mean "trawl", not "troll"? Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 2:14
  • 1
    @Servy: no; up-voting and down-voting are asymmetric processes already. And if a question or answer has 'enough' up-votes (by some ill-defined gut feel), it won't get another up-vote from me unless it is especially useful to me. Moderation is the word — as in, control of impulses to use both up-vote and down-vote buttons, rather than referring to moderators. Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 2:30
  • @JonathanLeffler You're right, the are asymmetric. Downvoting bad posts is dramatically more important, and useful to the site, than upvoting good posts. As for moderation, the whole purpose of voting is for people to provide feedback on the quality of a post. Is it wrong for a movie critic to rate too many movies, rather than "having restraint" and refusing to inform their followers that several of the bad movies that they saw are in fact bad, rather than giving in to their impulses and informing people of whether or not the movie is worth watching?
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 2:50
  • 2
    @JonathanLeffler Your first comment is exactly on point here, some new people ask bad questions, but I dont think giving these -20 or even -30 votes is necessary to let that come across.
    – Magisch
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 6:12
  • @Magisch So you think that the solution is to never downvote bad questions ever? Also note that it's very rare for a question to get anywhere near -30 votes. Virtually any question that's both that bad and has that much attention will get deleted before it reaches that point. (Outside of meta anyway.)
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 12:51
  • 1
    @Servy My solution is to leave questions already sitting at -5 or so alone since the point has already been made that they are poor quality.
    – Magisch
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 12:52
  • @Magisch And yet you say that a comment saying that questions should never be below -1 is "exactly on point". Not that I agree with your position either.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 12:54
  • 1
    @Servy I meant the broader implication of that comment beeing that downvoting already downvoted questions is useless.
    – Magisch
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 12:56
  • 5
    @Magisch But it's not useless. It's important, for all of the reasons that I listed. And of course, nobody seems to have the same problem upvoting questions to infinity, instead of feeling that +5 is enough to show that the question is good.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 13:00
-8

An alternative is if SO set up a handicap for new question askers that put a negative weight onto them that showed separately as simply a newbie badge, so that it would take more upvotes to have them show as upvoted in the SO behind the scenes calculation.

However that would solve the need to make newbies feel like posting so that they could be the next generation of experienced posters after a while. Specifically they wouldn't see all those negative points - they'd get wrapped into a newbie badge. And others who want to upvote newbies to encourage them could do so because they'd already be handicapped.

That'd be the gist. Something to think about... as a way to deal with this?

As a newbie, I can say it really is discouraging to wind up negative, without a chance to figure how to do something positive first. The system makes you not want to bother, as much as to just get your own needs met and move on... And that's not idea of course.

-8

From the point of view of an upvoter of some newbie questions, sometimes the questions are not that bad to deserve that many downvotes, and also often the OP is actively editing the topic based on comments.

Downvoting EASY questions or closing them, even if they are not that bad, is one thing I hate about the Stack Overflow community.

For example, this question does not deserve -3 at all.

3
  • 3
    We're not talking about a situation where the question is "upvote worthy" (to categorize it) we're discussing about when a question should not be upvoted and it gets upvoted out of empathy instead of merit.
    – Just Do It
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 14:36
  • 1
    The question you linked is more likely to get down-voted rather than up-voted. So by posting it here, you're making things worse (or arguably better) Commented Oct 22, 2015 at 9:20
  • You are not alone (yep, YCS is also featured there). Commented Oct 22, 2015 at 23:25
-15

This may not be a best practice, but it's not something to become overly concerned with, so long as these kinds of upvotes are given to very new users.

Th comment made it clear that the user didn't disagree that the question was bad. Their vote is not indicating that the question is good. Everyone can still see that it has a negative score. I understand what the policy says, but have some perspective and look at the actual situation.

They're just trying to encourage someone to continue to attempt to produce valuable content. You wouldn't throw a pity vote at a high rep use who should know better, as the bar is much higher, and they've already shown that they're invested in the community and understand what a good question even is.

If anyone is concerned that 9 downvotes and an upvote is a net gain in reputation, then it seems like they're concerned about the wrong thing. It's not like someone is going to hit 100k rep on pity votes for being a new user and writing a poor question. They won't be a new user that long.

On the other hand, it's at least possible that upvoting and not leaving a comment might give the wrong impression, so that should be avoided.

In any case, like others have said, the important thing is to follow the guidelines yourself, and not worry so much about how others are voting.

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    They're just trying to encourage someone to participate in the community, which is what we want. No, we want people to contribute valuable content. We don't want people contributing bad content. Encouraging people to continue posting bad content is harmful.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 2:08
  • I never said that what worried me was the rep OP might get. Don't go assuming things you are not even sure about. My concern was the content of the question, and the reasoning behind the upvote. Not if he had positive or negative rep
    – Just Do It
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 3:16
  • 1
    @xPeke I'm not assuming anything about your concerns. "If you're concerned". Others have expressed this concern.
    – DCShannon
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 3:26
  • 1
    @Servy I agree completely, which is why the fact that it was a new user is important. Even assuming this is a good idea with new users, which it probably isn't, it definitely is not something you should do for higher rep users who should know better by now. I don't know how new the user was, as I can't see the question anymore, but I'm assuming they had less than 100 rep. For a new user, with a comment making it clear that this is the case, the incentive is to continue trying to contribute good content.
    – DCShannon
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 3:27
  • 3
    Newness or not of the user shouldn't factor into it. You should be voting on the content, irregardless of who the user is, how new they are, what their existing rep is and what other votes have already been cast. Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 7:51
  • 1
    @JamesThorpe I don't think you're being reasonable or realistic, but I suppose SO has enough users that it is less concerned with onboarding new ones than the SEs I spend most of my time on, so whatever.
    – DCShannon
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 21:54
-18

There's a lot of debate on this topic, but let me also ask this: how many users around here downvote for reasons other than "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful." I have even watched some people, a few of them with a LOT of reputation points, get downright nasty. They make no secret of the fact that they downvote because they don't like the person, don't like the otherwise useful question, or simply because they already know the non-tirivial answer and feel everyone else should have learned it by osmosis, despite a complete lack of documentation on the topic.

On the flip side, yes, there are those who upvote just to be politically correct niceness fairies. That isn't helping anything either. One has to ask, however, if the aforementioned nasty-downvote situation has created an environment where they believe it is necessary. Because some will downvote just to be poison mean, the nice people are trying to prevent new users from running screaming from Stack Overflow, never to return.

Neither approach works. Downvoting newbies instead of leaving helpful comments, as some tend to do, will drive good people away. (You started at newbie status too, pal!) Upvoting newbies for bad content instead of leaving helpful comments, as others tend to do, will give a false sense of "this is how to do it" to those who are learning the ropes.

The problem is not reserved to upvoters or downvoters. The problem is, there are a lot of people that treat Stack Overflow like a popularity contest. With some users, it's middle school all over again. The popular kids act like hot stuff, bully the new kids, and then somehow get upvoted for just typing, while a new user with an answer that is just as good is barely upvoted, or even downvoted.

So, what is the problem at the heart of this? Some people have turned Stack Overflow into a middle school playground. Some downvoters downvote just to feel powerful that they can keep someone from entering the "elite," so some upvoters try to restore balance by upvoting anything that breathes.

Let me see if I can put this nicely.

GROW UP!

We have no means of putting a check on these abuses of voting. Proposal after proposal has been shot down because no one wants to be accountable with why they're voting up or down. So, as long as that remains the case, if you don't like how someone votes, vote correctly yourself.

Because, as annoying as it is, as long as we have bullies who downvote as a means of taking the new kid's lunch money, we need the unrealistically nice people to keep this from becoming a hostile den of Internet jerks. It's a bandage that creates its own problems, but it isn't exactly avoidable. Without the "bleeding hearts", the bullies are often unchecked.

At the end of the day, if we won't institute safeguards, and yet refuse abide by this obvious principle, perhaps we really should consider just removing voting altogether. I wouldn't want that to happen, but it depends on whether we have enough people here to handle voting like responsible adults. We're not in grade school.

TBH, I wouldn't be surprised to see backlash from this answer, but you know what? Sometimes truth hurts. If you're about to downvote this, I'm probably talking to you. It won't hurt my feelings any, but you should take it as a personal cue to check your own motives. If you believe you're really downvoting based on merit, go ahead. As I said, it won't matter to me.

EDIT: If you want to upvote, you should likewise be certain it's for merit, not just to be nice. I don't need pity.

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  • 17
    So you just assume that people who downvote posts must be doing so just to be jerks, and that they couldn't possibly be voting on the merits of the post? Also note that, in the question at hand, the quoted comment isn't even disputing the fact that the post is very low quality, it's acknowledging it, so that the post merits downvotes isn't even being disputed.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:29
  • 5
    I don't agree that too much of one thing (bleeding hearts) is the antidote to too much of another thing (jerkfaces), but the general thrust of this post is something I can get behind, especially the "be sure to do the right thing yourself".
    – jscs
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:30
  • 6
    @Servey, you misread. I downvote as well. It has a use. However, we have people that outright admit to downvoting to be jerks. Some downvoters are bullies, and some upvoters are trying to be niceness fairies. Neither is helpful, but we have no way to put either in check, so vote and let vote. Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:30
  • 3
    Shh, we can't question people's motives for downvoting. Only upvoting is bad. If you're using your votes to do something besides follow the perceived will of the majority, you're a moron and should leave the site. At least that's what I'm hearing. Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:32
  • 38
    "Downvoting newbies instead of leaving helpful comments, as some tend to do, will drive good people away." Oh not this crap again. Where did this preposterous myth come from that "unable to rationalise or think for oneself, let alone use basic punctuation" somehow equates to "newbie"? The two are completely unrelated. Newbie questions are fine; shite questions are not. If downvoting a shite questions discourages its author from coming back and asking another question, good. Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:35
  • 3
    @BradWerth, there is a world of difference between a vote and a car, and by that logic, if the majority uses their car to strike down pedestrians, you're a moron for not doing the same. Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:35
  • 6
    I don't get the point of this answer. Is it that some people do bad things, so we should encourage other people to do a different bad thing? Or is it that people are going to misuse their votes so we should stop caring about voting correctly? Either way, I disagree. Just because a situation is always going to have problems is no reason to stop trying to correct the ones we see.
    – resueman
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:39
  • 3
    My point is, the community shot down means of governing voting, so the only remaining response is to do it right ourselves and stop whining when someone follows a different philosophy. We should upvote good content, downvote bad content. We should NOT upvote to be door greeters, and downvote to be bullies. Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:40
  • 7
    @JasonMc92 So the fact that some people, on some occasions, have downvotes posts to be mean, means that everyone that downvotes your post here is downvoting it just to be mean to you, and not because your post merits downvotes? Sorry, but not. I'm not saying that nobody ever downvotes to be mean. I just said that it's clearly not happening in any of the cases brought up in this question, including the post linked in the OP and your answer.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:44
  • 13
    @JasonMc92 And if you'd left it at just that, this could have been a good answer. Instead you had to include things like your last paragraph, accusing anyone who downvotes your post as voting out of spite, rather than merit. Oh, and that also doesn't recognize the serial voting script, which is an actual type of voting governance that is in place.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:50
  • 3
    @Servy, is it helpful? How much does a new user learn from a downvote? They don't know yet what it means, so it equates to a YouTube "dislike" to them. When paired with at least one comment, it is helpful. And, I already stated that upvoting just to be "nice" is problematic as well, SEVERAL times in the article. Half of my point is that if we want to prevent the bleeding hearts from feeling like they should upvote, we need less people downvoting just to be mean. The two groups are putting the whole site into one big, stupid feedback loop of idiocy. Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 19:07
  • 5
    @JasonMc92 As I said, it's completely off topic here, so I won't go into it. That said, it's been discussed to death. Someone makes a meta post around once a day asking some variant of requiring comments when downvoting. There are lots and lots of information on both why such a feature can't ever be put in place, and also why voting without commenting is not at all unhelpful. Feel free to research the topic yourself if you want to know why. Again, I'm not accusing you of saying that sympathy upvotes are okay, I'm explaining why your answer isn't go about explaining your point effectively.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 19:10
  • 11
    "You started at newbie status too, pal" Indeed. I also started pre-internet, when we actually had to research in books (remember those?) and had to put in some actual effort rather than just dumping on other people. These days it should be even easier to learn with the vast quantities of material available. So yes, bad/poorly researched questions that are easily answered from the documentation for whatever language/tool is being used should be downvoted. Commented Oct 20, 2015 at 8:27
  • 7
    @ClasG: No, being downvoted is not a death sentence. It's a reprimand. I absolutely think first-time criminals should be reprimanded: that way, they're less likely to commit another crime. But no-one's talking about putting them to death ... they always have a chance to get it right the next time. (Sadly, few do.) Commented Oct 20, 2015 at 18:07
  • 3
    The point you repeatedly made in the comments, which effectively is "Vote correctly, always." is just right. However, this answer reads like an angry rant totally fitting for the middle school playground it accuses SO of being, which is why people interpreted it as such.
    – Ajean
    Commented Oct 21, 2015 at 1:08
-38

I know this might be controversial, but I don't see the harm that is caused by someone upvoting a post that is already donwvoted into oblivion. Sometimes I even do it myself when I see that a post has been downvoted to a lower level than I believe it deserves - usually as a response to the meta-effect.

This action has two side-effects:

  • For the author of post, it acts like a gesture of courtesy. We show him that the post was of low quality, but not that what he wrote is completely useless. He may even end up with a positive rep gain if enough people pity-upvote.

  • For everybody else, nothing really changed. If the post is downvoted, everybody can see that it has a flaw. Most people won't even notice that there is an upvote, unless they click on the score counter (and they have sufficient rep).

Regarding your concern that it may encourage people to post low quality posts, do you really think that a vote breakdown of -10/+1 signals to anybody that their post was well received?

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    I think the possibility of a positive rep gain is one of the reasons people don't like it when this happens. We don't want to reward bad behavior Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 17:29
  • 7
    -10/+1, sure, it's obviously still negative, but that's more of an edge case. More often its -3/+1, which is a net gain of reputation, hence, they're being "rewarded" for posting low quality content.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 17:43
  • 3
    @Servy Ok in that case I don't think it's really justified. But it's their vote, they can use it as they see fit.
    – user000001
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 17:51
  • 8
    Yes, they can use it how they see fit. It can still be very harmful to the goals of this site.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 17:53
  • 19
    @user000001 I can use my votes to vote up all of the people who have attractive women in their profile pics, and downvote all the people who have unattractive men in their profile pics, and nobody can stop me, but such behavior would be very clearly harmful to the site. As I said on the question, this behavior is unquestionably very harmful to the site (even worse than the example I just gave, actually), but sadly there is nothing that we can actually do to stop people like you and the person from the quote from actively harming the community in this manor.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 17:53
  • 20
    "Sometimes I even do it myself when I see that a post has been downvoted to a lower level than I believe it deserves" It is not your job to undo everybody else's right to vote. Your power is to cast +1, -1, or 0. Your power is not "try to get the final result to x". Don't pretend it is, and everything will be fine. Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:08
  • 26
    "For the author of post, it acts like a gesture of courtesy." Keep "courtesy" as far away from the voting system as possible. It does not belong there. At all. Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:09
  • 8
    @user000001 You think that indicating that a post is a quality post, when you know that it's not isn't harmful? Why do we have voting in the first place if it's entirely okay for people to vote in exactly the opposite way of what it's there to indicate and that doesn't matter at all? Upvoting bad content encourages people to continue posting more bad content, it dis-incentives them from improving their bad content, and gives other readers the impression that the content isn't as bad as it is, or even that it's not bad at all.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:09
  • 12
    @Two-BitAlchemist: Yes, of course, you can vote however you want. I never disputed it. That doesn't change the fact that choosing to use your freedom in this way is actively harmful and frankly preposterous. I'm not trying to "legislate" anything — you completely invented that notion, which I do not appreciate. No, we are, and have been (Servy addressed this fantasy already, after all) talking about the intention of the voting system and the manner of its use which best serves this community. That same manner of use, incidentally, which sits on the upvote button tooltip's text. Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:12
  • 5
    I don't agree with the content of this answer, but out of courtesy and recognizing how hard it can be to write meta-posts, I will give it an upvote. Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:13
  • 9
    @Two-BitAlchemist Just as these users have the right to intentionally harm the site by upvoting posts that they know are bad, Light and I have the right to complain about such actions on meta, and state that those actions are harming the site. I wish I could stop people from voting in this way, I really do. If I actually had the power to stop this behavior, you can bet I'd use it. Sadly, mind reading (let alone mind reading over the internet) hasn't quite been perfected yet, so all we can do is complain about an unsolvable problem.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:17
  • 22
    If you're upvoting the -10 post because it's actually good, @Two-BitAlchemist, that's great; you should probably try to edit it too since you see something valuable that no one else seems to see. If you're voting on it because it's scored -10, then you're using voting for something other than its intended purpose.
    – jscs
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:24
  • 4
    @Two-BitAlchemist You're the one suggesting that people not vote based on their opinion of the quality of the post, but rather on their opinion on other people's opinion of the post. Voting based on your opinion of the post means that if you think that the post is bad you should downvote it, rather than upvoting a post that you know is bad just because other people downvoted the bad post.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:31
  • 6
    @Two-BitAlchemist: Um, voting is always supposed to be voting within constraints. When you vote in a general election, there is a basic understanding that you are voting for the party you wish to lead the country's government, not the party you wish to attend your next neighbourhood bake sale. That expectation is laid out by the body organising the vote. The same applies here: Stack Exchange has asked for your opinion of a question within the bounds of certain criteria. Can we stop you from refusing? No. Does that mean we have to like it? No. Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:33
  • 6
    @Two-BitAlchemist The quote in question here isn't a user saying, "This post isn't actually that bad, why did 10 people downvote this acceptable post?" Rather it said, "This post is bad, but you're new, so I'll give you an upvote even though you made a mistake in posting this question." The former is something that I'd disagree with in this case, but that isn't abusing voting, but rather a disagreement. The latter is just abuse. So once again, this isn't about whether or not the post is bad, it's about how to vote on posts that are unanimously agreed on as bad.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 19, 2015 at 18:54

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