Timeline for Upvoting for reasons other than "showing research and effort"
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
47 events
when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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Oct 20, 2015 at 20:02 | comment | added | Just Do It | @jpmc26 I agree with your last sentence | |
Oct 20, 2015 at 19:05 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @xPeke I think respect necessitates caring about a person's feelings, and I think professionalism will include some level of empathy. But we may just be debating semantics at this point. It seems we hold a similar position. Either way, I hope we agree the behavior in these comments certainly isn't what we want to see happen. | |
Oct 20, 2015 at 19:02 | comment | added | Just Do It | I think instead of kindness and empathy it should be respect and professionalism. I can respect your answers/questions/comments without necessarily caring about your feelings. Since you can't really care for someone you don't even know. @jpmc26 That's my point of view. But, like i said earlier, I respect your point of view as well. I just happen to disagree with it. | |
Oct 20, 2015 at 18:57 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @xPeke You are reiterating what I said: "No, it shouldn't stop you from downvoting low quality content." My comment was on the approach and the attitude toward other people. It should be kindness and empathy, qualities that are notably absent in the two comment chains on the downvoted answers here. That was my point: downvote appropriately, but any response beyond that (e.g., a comment should you choose to leave one) should be nice. I felt I needed to make this point because of the lack of it here and my desire to prevent it from continuing here or spreading elsewhere. | |
Oct 20, 2015 at 18:50 | comment | added | Kevin B | beware the meta effect though. Meta is full of users who are more than willing to vote on quality. if your post is of low quality and you put it in-front of a bunch of people who are willing to vote on quality, i'm sure you can guess what will happen next. | |
Oct 20, 2015 at 18:47 | comment | added | Just Do It | I understand @jpmc26 but understand that this is a professional site, feelings should not be a factor in our voting judgement. We rank/review/judge content, not feelings. If you get downvoted, don't take it too seriously and think of what could be wrong with your question/answer, then try to improve it. If you believe nothing is wrong, then bring it to meta where it can be discussed. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 19:16 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Josh: Why shouldn't SO be the Olympics? | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 19:04 | comment | added | BradleyDotNET | @Two-BitAlchemist I've seen plenty of comments admitting to "pity" upvotes. Clearly people will vote just because the user is new with no regard to the quality of the post. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 19:02 | comment | added | jscs | How about this: the freshman on the Olympic diving team does a half-gainer or whatever it is they do, and completely flubs it; just flops into the water and splashes everyone. Three of the judges give her low scores, and the other judge looks over and says "You three are a bunch of jerks. She gets a 10 from me! I know how hard it is to go to the Olympics for the first time." Sure, SO isn't the Olympics, but we use post score to mean something. There's meaning lost when votes, which generate the score, are used for anything other than honest judgement of usefulness. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 19:01 | comment | added | Servy | @Two-BitAlchemist So then you just think that the person that posted this comment was lying, and that he actually thinks that the post is a high quality post, and just commented to say that he was upvoting it even though it was bad because...? Why would he do that? I just don't see any reason to lie about something like that. I mean he actually told us why he voted, so it's not like we're just assuming that the only reason anyone could ever upvote such a bad question is because its a pity upvote. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:58 | comment | added | Two-Bit Alchemist | @Servy I just really doubt anyone's actually doing that. We can try to simplify it down one way or the other but voting behavior is complex and determined by complex individuals on a case by case basis. I personally see plenty of room for the types of voting you and some others are decrying as entirely frivolous. It takes all kinds to make the world (and SO) go round. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:55 | comment | added | Two-Bit Alchemist | @JoshCaswell I don't honestly think we're too far off each other's positions -- maybe just having trouble discussing it in this format. At any rate your position seems to me more charitable than some others defending the other side of this! | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:54 | comment | added | Servy | @Two-BitAlchemist The quote in question here isn't a user saying, "This post isn't actually that bad, why did 10 people downvote this acceptable post?" Rather it said, "This post is bad, but you're new, so I'll give you an upvote even though you made a mistake in posting this question." The former is something that I'd disagree with in this case, but that isn't abusing voting, but rather a disagreement. The latter is just abuse. So once again, this isn't about whether or not the post is bad, it's about how to vote on posts that are unanimously agreed on as bad. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:53 | comment | added | jscs | @Two: It's not at all wrong to voice your opinion in contradiction to the majority: it's sometimes helpful. It's wrong to use a signal that says to everyone else "This content is good" if the content is not -- in your judgment -- good. That's all I'm saying. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:52 | comment | added | jscs | No, what you just said is what I think you should do, @Two-BitAlchemist: "look at it and think 'This is not an utter pile of crap -- it might actually be useful'". That's judging a post on its own merits, and if you want to use one of your 30 votes to express that, please do. Qualified upvoting I have a harder time with, but I'm sure I've done it a few times over the years, and I will agree to disagree with you on that. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:39 | comment | added | Two-Bit Alchemist | There's a place, I think, for lone voices in the community to stand up for a minority opinion. I am being told, however, that this is childish/stupid/evil (i.e. intentionally contrary to site goals) and that we should shut our mouths and line up. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:38 | comment | added | Two-Bit Alchemist | @JoshCaswell No, you're not. You're saying if someone comes across a question that is judged by the community to be an utter pile of crap (-10), but if you look at it and think, "This is not an utter pile of crap -- it might actually be useful," but you vote that way, then you are 'wrong'. Another high rep user on your side even suggested that was 'moron[ic]'. And yes, I mean a qualified upvote, that you would cast at -9 but not at 0 (because the post isn't good enough to be +1 and exempt from GC, but it's not bad enough to be at -9). | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:34 | comment | added | jscs | What I'm describing is exactly "empower[ing] you to weigh in with your opinion on the value of a question" [emphasis mine], @Two-BitAlchemist. What I'm opposed to is using your votes to try to counteract other people's opinions, or voting on users/situations ("+1, you're new"). | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:33 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Two-BitAlchemist: Um, voting is always supposed to be voting within constraints. When you vote in a general election, there is a basic understanding that you are voting for the party you wish to lead the country's government, not the party you wish to attend your next neighbourhood bake sale. That expectation is laid out by the body organising the vote. The same applies here: Stack Exchange has asked for your opinion of a question within the bounds of certain criteria. Can we stop you from refusing? No. Does that mean we have to like it? No. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:31 | comment | added | Servy | @Two-BitAlchemist You're the one suggesting that people not vote based on their opinion of the quality of the post, but rather on their opinion on other people's opinion of the post. Voting based on your opinion of the post means that if you think that the post is bad you should downvote it, rather than upvoting a post that you know is bad just because other people downvoted the bad post. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:29 | comment | added | Two-Bit Alchemist | @JoshCaswell We'll just have to agree to disagree. What you're describing sounds very little like voting to me, because apparently your vote isn't supposed to empower you to weigh in with your opinion on the value of a question, but only instead to express your agreement with the expected direction of the site by your 'superiors'. If that's the case, why vote at all? | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:24 | comment | added | jscs | If you're upvoting the -10 post because it's actually good, @Two-BitAlchemist, that's great; you should probably try to edit it too since you see something valuable that no one else seems to see. If you're voting on it because it's scored -10, then you're using voting for something other than its intended purpose. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:22 | comment | added | Two-Bit Alchemist | @JoshCaswell I don't see how someone voting a -10 post to -9 because they feel the community judged it too harshly is anything other than that. There's a few people that are blind to uses of the site other than their preferred ones and openly wish everyone who doesn't use the site the way they want would leave. "Lots of people upvote out of "kindness" because they want to "help" and not "discourage" the OP for being a newbie. Morons." Indeed. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:20 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit Indeed. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:18 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/308302/… | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:18 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit And yet the post is full of people complaining about it (and complaining about Jeff's dismissal of the problem). | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:18 | comment | added | jscs | Votes are used to score posts, @Two-BitAlchemist; the scores are then used by everyone else as a shorthand for the the values of the posts. If votes are used for something other than "this post itself is good/bad", then the scores lose their meaning and their usefulness. There's no new legislation here: this is the original purpose of voting on these sites. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:17 | comment | added | Servy | @Two-BitAlchemist Just as these users have the right to intentionally harm the site by upvoting posts that they know are bad, Light and I have the right to complain about such actions on meta, and state that those actions are harming the site. I wish I could stop people from voting in this way, I really do. If I actually had the power to stop this behavior, you can bet I'd use it. Sadly, mind reading (let alone mind reading over the internet) hasn't quite been perfected yet, so all we can do is complain about an unsolvable problem. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:17 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy: Did you even read the post before you linked me to it? The accepted answer concludes "there is not a problem". It supports my comment. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:13 | comment | added | BlackVegetable | I don't agree with the content of this answer, but out of courtesy and recognizing how hard it can be to write meta-posts, I will give it an upvote. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:12 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Two-BitAlchemist: Yes, of course, you can vote however you want. I never disputed it. That doesn't change the fact that choosing to use your freedom in this way is actively harmful and frankly preposterous. I'm not trying to "legislate" anything — you completely invented that notion, which I do not appreciate. No, we are, and have been (Servy addressed this fantasy already, after all) talking about the intention of the voting system and the manner of its use which best serves this community. That same manner of use, incidentally, which sits on the upvote button tooltip's text. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:11 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy: Your "assurances" don't change anything. Remember, I was here too. It's much worse now. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:11 | comment | added | Two-Bit Alchemist | @LightnessRacesinOrbit I sincerely disagree. If you think a vote cast as such is offensive because downvotes count far less than upvotes, address that, but it has been stated repeatedly that users can vote however they want. That's part of it being private. I know you address that because you are addressing frivolous patterns (like based on the attractiveness of profile pics), but that's a strawman because you are talking actually about thoughtful votes cast for reasons you disagree with. It's not yours and Servy's job to try to legislate why people vote. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:10 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit We had these kinds of problems on SO three years ago, I can assure you of that. Here is the "canonical" pity upvote complaining question from back in 2011. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:10 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | "For everybody else, nothing really changed." Nonsense. We didn't have these kind of quality problems on SO three years ago, and this bullshit is why. Everything changed! | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:09 | comment | added | Servy | @user000001 You think that indicating that a post is a quality post, when you know that it's not isn't harmful? Why do we have voting in the first place if it's entirely okay for people to vote in exactly the opposite way of what it's there to indicate and that doesn't matter at all? Upvoting bad content encourages people to continue posting more bad content, it dis-incentives them from improving their bad content, and gives other readers the impression that the content isn't as bad as it is, or even that it's not bad at all. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:09 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | "For the author of post, it acts like a gesture of courtesy." Keep "courtesy" as far away from the voting system as possible. It does not belong there. At all. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:08 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | "Sometimes I even do it myself when I see that a post has been downvoted to a lower level than I believe it deserves" It is not your job to undo everybody else's right to vote. Your power is to cast +1, -1, or 0. Your power is not "try to get the final result to x". Don't pretend it is, and everything will be fine. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 18:06 | comment | added | user000001 | @Servy To be honest, I am a bit offended that you are accusing me of "actively harming the community", especially when you haven't stated anywhere in this thread what the is the tangible harm (and I am only referring to cases where the post is clearly donwvoted). Maybe you could add an answer of your own, explaining what are the bad things that happen in these cases. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 17:53 | comment | added | Servy | @user000001 I can use my votes to vote up all of the people who have attractive women in their profile pics, and downvote all the people who have unattractive men in their profile pics, and nobody can stop me, but such behavior would be very clearly harmful to the site. As I said on the question, this behavior is unquestionably very harmful to the site (even worse than the example I just gave, actually), but sadly there is nothing that we can actually do to stop people like you and the person from the quote from actively harming the community in this manor. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 17:53 | comment | added | Kevin B | Yes, they can use it how they see fit. It can still be very harmful to the goals of this site. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 17:51 | comment | added | user000001 | @Servy Ok in that case I don't think it's really justified. But it's their vote, they can use it as they see fit. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 17:49 | comment | added | Servy | At the time that the quoted comment was posted, the question was at +1/-1, so his upvote moved the question to a net score of 0. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 17:47 | comment | added | Just Do It | I did not mean to cause a meta effect, when I read the question it had only -2 score | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 17:43 | comment | added | Kevin B | -10/+1, sure, it's obviously still negative, but that's more of an edge case. More often its -3/+1, which is a net gain of reputation, hence, they're being "rewarded" for posting low quality content. | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 17:29 | comment | added | BradleyDotNET | I think the possibility of a positive rep gain is one of the reasons people don't like it when this happens. We don't want to reward bad behavior | |
Oct 19, 2015 at 17:17 | history | answered | user000001 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |