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We already have prevented posting the comment:

What did you try?

I suggest we also somehow prevent users from referring to other websites in the custom close reason.


Per this Meta Stack Overflow question, potentially being on topic on another Stack Exchange site doesn't inherently make a question off-topic at the location it's posted to (there are other posts on this topic as well, not just this one).

Despite this, I regularly see questions being closed using the custom close reason and typing as their message something to the effect of:

I'm voting to close this question as off topic because it belongs on [Insert Some Other Stack Exchange Network Site here].

I see several problems with this close reason.

  1. Being on topic elsewhere doesn't make a question off topic on Stack Overflow.
  2. Using this custom close reason doesn't actually migrate a question, unlike the existing built in migrate options.
  3. The question might actually be on topic on Stack Overflow and doesn't need to be closed at all.
  4. If point three doesn't hold, then it's only because one of the existing closing reasons is applicable (and should therefore be used).
  5. This custom close reason is used even on questions that are bad no matter where they are posted.

Stack Overflow close-voters have a tendency to want to just get bad questions out of the way. Voting to close a question and using the reason "This belongs on Site A" tends to have the effect of shuffling Stack Overflow's trash down the street to some other Stack Exchange site, where it will generally also be closed there. More problematic than this, sometimes questions that are actually on topic on Stack Overflow but definitely on-topic elsewhere are still closed as belonging to the other site. The question might have some sort of problem that makes it a bad question on Stack Overflow though. When Stack Overflow users don't use the correct close reasons and when they don't help the user with comments regarding the quality of the question, and instead prod the bad question off to another site, the asker has to suffer having their bad question close twice.

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  • 19
    Sigh. This nonsense has to stop. Here's a user to took his free time to help a lost puppy to find his home. Maybe its the wrong home but its not like he's wearing a name tag. Stop punishing users that try to help. Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 0:02
  • 7
    These people tend to cause more harm than help @HansPassant If they want to recommend the user to another site (in a regular comment), that's fine. But this isn't a legitimate close reason.
    – nhgrif
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 0:04
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    @ChiefTwoPencils meta.stackexchange.com/questions/253174/…
    – nhgrif
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 0:06
  • 6
    Related complaint: UI suggests that "better fit elsewhere" is a valid reason for closure Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 0:47
  • 3
    I'd consider it a passable shorthand, or at least almost passable, for "this question is off-topic here, and also is on-topic there", with special note for how obnoxious migration can be. (And how, often, the CV'er is hoping the OP will go over to that site and read their guidance before posting. A vain hope, I assume, but there we are.) All that to say: discouraging these? Maybe. Blocking them? No way. They're nowhere near damaging enough for that. Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 5:38
  • 6
    I would not outright block such a close reason, for fear of unintended consequences of automatic blockage, but displaying a notice would be fine. "Please include reasons why the question is offtopic here. Being ontopic somewhere else does not automatically make it offtopic."
    – HugoRune
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 7:41
  • 4
    @NathanTuggy "this question is off-topic here, and also is on-topic there" But it fails to explain why it's off-topic here. For example code review questions get closed here because they're primarily opinion-based. The close notice serves to educate the user.
    – Radiodef
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 8:19
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    @HansPassant try to help, really? Tell that to misguided askers finding their reposts at other sites voted down, closed and followed by negative comments. "Belongs-to" commenters are just lazy suckers afraid to do the real thing by flagging for moderator to migrate... now that could be helpful, but suckers just want to avoid risk of declines. Recommended reading: What goes on Programmers.SE? A guide for Stack Overflow
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 10:02
  • 3
    Related on MSE: Add a “don't migrate crap” migration 'path' to all sites combined with Better “Flag for migration” interface.
    – user289086
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 13:50
  • 2
    @Radiodef: Sure, and I'm not saying these are ideal by any means. What I'm chiefly arguing against is the idea that they are such amazingly bad comments that they should be filtered out, and secondarily the idea that they are always wrong. They're often wrong, and usually not as helpful as possible. Flag non-constructive if you must, but add a filter? Nope. Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 15:11
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    @BenVoigt Code Review is also in beta but can receive migrations when questions are flagged with an 'other' flag for migration. A good close reason or comment might be of the form: "I'm voting to close as off-topic because XYZ. You might have better luck on [Raspberry PI](link) but be sure to read their help center before you post it there" Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:15
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    @SimonAndréForsberg: Seems like that would be a good template, where XYZ is pre-filled "it is not about software development within the scope described in the Stack Overflow FAQ (link)" and the close voter needs only to identify the site where "you might have better luck", and the template auto-links to the "How to Ask" there.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:17
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    "This has zilch to do with programming" could be added as one of the prewritten close reasons and this would STILL be problematic. Consider Software Engineering and Code Review are both the target of "This question is off topic because it belongs on Programmers" or "because it belongs on Code Review" and those questions usually have plenty to do with programming (and if they don't, they'd be off-topic on those sites too).
    – nhgrif
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:26
  • 1
    And EVEN when we are using the custom close reason, I'm not entirely against recommending another site in the custom close reason. What I'm against is the lack of any actual reasons why the question IS OFF TOPIC FOR STACK OVERFLOW existing in the close reason. It's one thing to say "This is off topic because XYZ so try Site B", it's quite another really bad thing to say "This is off topic because Site B". It's the latter I'm suggesting that gets eliminated, not the former.
    – nhgrif
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:28
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    @BenVoigt It says "add a comment explaining what is wrong". Being on-topic elsewhere isn't even remotely a problem with the question.
    – nhgrif
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:33

3 Answers 3

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Stack Overflow close-voters have a tendency to want to just get bad questions out of the way.

Yes, I do want to get off-topic questions out of the way, sorry about that.

Voting to close a question and using the reason "This belongs on Site A" tends to have the effect of shuffling Stack Overflow's trash down the street to some other Stack Exchange site, where it will generally also be closed there.

No, the general rule applies: don't migrate crap!

More problematic than this, sometimes questions that are actually on topic on Stack Overflow but definitely on-topic elsewhere are still closed as belonging to the other site.

In those cases leaving a comment and vote for re-open could fix these mishaps.

The question might have some sort of problem that makes it a bad question on Stack Overflow though. When Stack Overflow users don't use the correct close reasons and when they don't help the user with comments regarding the quality of the question, and instead prod the bad question off to another site, the asker has to suffer having their bad question close twice.

I agree with this because this is the category don't migrate crap but now I fail to see how your feature request will fix this. I can still close vote and leave a comment to send them elsewhere. It is behavior of close voters that needs to change and I'm not sure if restricting already seasoned users will help with that.

I'm more in favor to show a link to migration guidance on the migrate close dialog because that reminds close voters to migrate wisely. Pointing out that you shouldn't suggest migration if you are not an active member of the community on the site you want to migrate to then simply don't propose it in the first place.

I fully agree that is often misunderstood or unknown and I have been bitten and corrected for that behavior in the past and current time. Nowadays I normally check in chat with members of a particular site before I go the custom migration route.

Using a custom off-topic reason for migration is fine if:

  • the question is off-topic for SO
  • the question is not crap
  • you are active on that site or have consulted a member of that site
  • your reason include the warning to check the help center and/or meta before re-posting, as suggested in this MSE post
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    Yes, I do want to get off-topic questions out of the way, sorry about that.... but the whole premise of this question is being on-topic elsewhere is not a close reason so should not be used as one. If the question is close-worthy on Stack Overflow then one of the existing close reasons should fit. Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 9:22
  • I'm perfectly aware of that. I'm reacting to the general message @psubsee2003
    – rene
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 9:26
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    The general rule does apply. Don't migrate crap! You're right. The problem is that frequently, the questions that get closed under this "belong elsewhere" custom reason are questions that deserve to be closed... but not because it belongs elsewhere, rather because it's got some other problem. When Stack Overflow lazily closes a question that's "Unclear" under an incorrect close reason ("belongs elsewhere"), now we've caused two problems. 1) The asker doesn't actually know what's wrong with their question relative to SO, 2) the asker will now have their question closed for a...
    – nhgrif
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 11:40
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    ...different, more accurate reason on the target site. Frequently, I see Stack Overflow users say "This belongs on Code Review" just because someone throws in "I'm also looking for any general advice on this code", but the question actually fits basically every one of Code Review's close reasons. Meanwhile, if it were put on hold as "Too Broad" on Stack Overflow, the user actually has a chance to understand what's actually wrong with their question on Stack Overflow, where the question actually belongs.
    – nhgrif
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 11:41
  • @rene Also, we're not talking about a migration close dialog. We're talking about users who use the custom close reason to make their close vote look like a migrate vote. Sites that aren't in the actual migrate list tend to not be there either because it's an extraordinarily small (if it all) layer of overlap, or because despite the large amount of overlap, Stack Overflow users are still terrible at knowing what would actually make a good question at the given site. Have you noticed how Programmers.SE still isn't a migration path from SO?
    – nhgrif
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 11:47
  • I'm aware of the problem and I'm not new here so I know the migration policies and the unpleasant experience users can have when directed to a wrong site. Personally I always add the advice to check the help center and the meta site before asking again. That said, I'm not a big fan of blocking/filtering kind of features and that is what you propose. I can and will support anything that guides flaggers and voters in their behavior to (not) redirect OP's in the correct way with a high success rate.
    – rene
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 11:56
  • @rene "always add the advice to check the help center and the meta site before asking again", huh? Be careful when using the word "always". May I present to you: Exhibit A and Exhibit B. It is noted that you do that mostly though, much appreciated. (It would be even more helpful to link to the help centers of the other sites though) Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:42
  • sure, thanks for digging that up, I'll rephrase a little bit @SimonAndréForsberg
    – rene
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:48
5

Those custom close reasons always annoy me greatly for 3 reasons

  • If that is the only reason to close a question, then it is not a reason to close the question
  • If the question deserves to be closed, you just throw the user a bone to make them go away. They end up reposting on the site you told them to go to, and it gets downvoted/closed there. Now you have 2 crap questions instead of one.
  • Likewise, if the question deserves to be closed, you aren't providing any feedback whatsoever on why the question should be closed. All you are saying is "we don't want your question, go ask it somewhere else". This might be OK if you were telling the user to go ask on Yahoo Answers, but when you send them to another SE site, that is just shifting the problem around.

All that being said, I'm not sure if this is something that needs to be dealt with by blacklisting keywords in comments as you have suggested.

  1. The core content of the comment itself "this question belongs on X.SE" is not inherently bad, it is only bad when used as the only close reason.
  2. The challenge of coming up with any kind of reasonably RegEx pattern to look for that phrase is probably going to have far to many false positives because as mentioned, the comment can be considered useful in cases (when not prefaced with "I'm voting to close because..."). It will also probably be insanely easy to evade by changing a few characters, at which time we will have a porblem
  3. Blacklisting something is almost never going to be a popular solution and often makes it more difficult to moderate bad questions (which is not something we want to do). Look at the uproar around the black \listing of +1 and -1 to start comments.

So what should we do about it? I am not sure I have a good solution. I do think something should be done to help limit the use of this reason for closing but blacklisting specific character combinations is probably not the best solution. This best solution is likely going to be a human (and maybe unicorn) solution through education and manually flagging such comments.

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    You're not even saying "we don't want your question, go ask it somewhere else." When you say "this question belongs elsewhere," you're saying "This question would be good if it were on this other site." Most of the time, it ends up close, and Stack Overflow close voters have lied to the user.
    – nhgrif
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 11:45
  • Counter-example to #1: stackoverflow.com/q/29581214
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:14
  • @BenVoigt Off-Topic > "Questions about general computing hardware and software are off-topic for Stack Overflow unless they directly involve tools used primarily for programming." certainly seems to fit. Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:21
  • @psubsee2003: Nope, it isn't about general computing hardware, and suggesting Super User would be highly inappropriate, since it is off-topic there also (just like phones and other devices). But that is the message I adapted to make my own custom reason.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:24
4

Your suggestion is terrible.

I'm going to particularly call out your assertion that

If point three doesn't hold, then it's only because one of the existing closing reasons is applicable (and should therefore be used).

But this is also a form of lying to the user. You're (voting to) telling them "What you need to fix about your question to make it welcome is XYZ" and that isn't any more true than "This question would be good if it were on this other site."

If you rephrased this as "We don't do a good job of delivering the following message to askers, and we need a better tool for doing so" then I could support it.

Your question is horrible. But there's no point in you hitting that edit button and pouring effort into fixing it, or us putting in effort teaching you how, because even if you bring it up to the quality standards of our site, it still will be off-topic. There is nothing that you can do to make this question welcome on Stack Overflow, short of throwing it away and asking about a different concept completely. There is a Stack Exchange site whose scope does include the concept you indicated interest in, so if you follow their rules for asking a high quality question, you might be able to get help there. Do not just paste the poorly explained wall of text above to the other site, however.

That's what people should be saying, but it's a LOT of text to type into a custom close reason. So people take shortcuts. And you've pointed out legitimate problems with some of the more common shortcuts.

But the solution is not to ban the message, it's to improve the message.

And if the close dialog offered something like the above, except worded more politely, and a means of specializing it to exactly what's wrong, the problem you perceive would just go away. Because typing in custom close reasons is work, and people are lazy enough to use the applicable template if one is provided.

So, instead of trying to filter out custom close reasons, work on a proposal for a template that clearly and politely conveys an accurate message.


And by "politely", I mean we can't use https://craphound.com/spamsolutions.txt no matter how technically accurate it might be. But the basic concept might work.

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  • This is maybe tangentially related, but what would your opinion be on moderators removing these comments and retracting that particular close vote? (So other users can't pick it)
    – nhgrif
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 18:26
  • @nhgrif: I don't think that serves the asker as well as explaining more fully what is wrong with the question -- making it clear that it has multiple severe problems, such that it needs both editing and migration.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 19:26
  • Ben, these comments are not explicitly posted to questions that need migration. They're posted to a wide variety of questions. Questions that need migration. Questions that just need edits but are actually on topic for Stack Overflow (if they're made more clear or something). Questions that are completely unsalvagable, but by god, the user mentioned the two words "code review" somewhere in that crappile they called a question, so the only close reason we can use is the custom "this belongs on Code Review."
    – nhgrif
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:18
  • @nhgrif: You're the one who came here and posted that all such close reasons are alike or at least equally deserving of being blocked.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:20
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    Ben, Code Review regulars have seen every comment posted to Stack Overflow in which a Stack Overflow user has suggested Code Review. The comments that are actually appropriate are extraordinarily few and far between, and this is only after months of the Code Review regulars acting like bloodhounds and educating Stack Overflow users time and time again that their comments are inappropriate. Despite this, it's still a problem.
    – nhgrif
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:24
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    @nhgrif: Which is why we should have a template that emphasizes the "How to Ask" FAQ of the other site, instead of tersely implying it is already on-topic there, which is what you end up with if you require typing out a custom reason. Besides, your suggestion wasn't "block close reasons linking to Code Review", it was "block close reasons linking to anywhere"
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:27
  • Yes, that was my suggestion. But I'm using some specific sites that have overlap with Stack Overflow to highlight problems. There are other sites that have overlap as well (all completely unrelated to SO).
    – nhgrif
    Commented Apr 11, 2015 at 20:31

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