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Over in Should we discourage leading +/-1 on comments?, Shog9 introduced a comment filter that prevented us from posting comments starting with -1. Okay, fine. But what are we supposed to post instead?

I think it's fair to say that I'm a pretty conscientious Stack Exchange citizen - I read Meta, I'm careful in my every action, I think about any flag I raise that gets declined, and I try to stay within the spirit of all the rules. But this comment filter bothers me because I can't make any sense of what the spirit of the rule is.

At one extreme we could interpret it to be "all criticism of posts is forbidden" and at the other we could interpret it to mean "it's strictly only comments that match our regex that we care about; as long as you put a random character before the -1 in your comment, that's fine". These are both plainly absurd, and the truth must lie between them, but nobody has made any effort to tell us where.

So I have some questions:

  • Am I still allowed to write -1 to indicate that I downvoted, as long as it isn't at the beginning of a comment?
  • Am I still allowed to state that I downvoted, as long as I do so by writing something like "I downvoted" instead of "-1"?
  • Am I still allowed to explicitly express the opinion that a post is utterly worthless and incorrect in its every detail? How about simply providing factual criticism in a way that implies that opinion?
  • Am I still allowed to express the opinion that a post is, overall, bad? How about simply providing factual criticism in a way that implies that opinion?
  • Am I still allowed to express the opinion that a post is flawed, imperfect, or partially unclear or unhelpful? How about simply providing factual criticism in a way that implies that opinion?

And wherever the line is drawn, why there? At the moment, I am genuinely unable to comply with the spirit of the rule because I haven't got the slightest clue what it is. I downvote often and almost always explain my downvotes - either by upvoting an existing comment or by adding a comment of my own - and my confusion over what I'm supposed to be doing is wasting me time whenever I have to comment. (And I usually end up doing things that are blatantly against the spirit of the rule, like writing "Throwing a -1 at this".)

Can somebody with authority offer some guidance on what an acceptable protocol for criticising bad posts is now, rather than expecting us to infer a social norm from a regex?

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    Do whatever you want to keep your sanity. Even if that means using zero-width spaces or unicode minuses. That rule is dumb and everyone knows it. Even moderators are using work-arounds.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Feb 1, 2015 at 19:31
  • 6
    Ahem Commented Feb 1, 2015 at 19:33
  • 3
    @Mysticial: The zero-width spaces don't work any more (it happened at this point, at the same time as a request to remove the block entirely was made status-completed, which is a massive LOL). Long hyphens do though. Commented Feb 1, 2015 at 19:34
  • 75
    @Mysticial they've banned the zero width spaces now, too (which I used to use). The reason I asked this is that it seems like a deranged waste of effort by both users and Stack Exchange devs for them to attempt to silently control how we express criticism via regexes and for us to attempt to subvert the filter. Instead they should just tell us what they expect like we're all human beings capable of communicating via language or something.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Feb 1, 2015 at 19:34
  • 29
    Downvote and move on, if you find the post not useful or unclear. If you wish to help the poster improve the question/answer, leave a comment (or better yet, edit the post!), but you do not have to indicate that you performed any voting action on the post. That is simply noise.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 2:32
  • 3
    I never knew you were "supposed to" (or even expected which is what is implied by "supposed to"). It is a choice you make and infact can land you in the penalty box. I make the choice to explain my downvotes, but that is a risk I have chosen to take; there is no expectation to take such a risk
    – Sammaye
    Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 10:34
  • 7
    I never had problems to explain why I downvoted the question. And I really felt no need to start with -1. Can't you instead focus on explaining the problem. I actually often act like the I downvoted the question even though I didn't, just to make my remarks more scary. Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 12:53
  • 42
    ➕1 because I still hope that questions such as this one persuade the SE team to reconsider their decision regarding +/-1
    – dirkk
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 14:11
  • 2
    I'm pretty sure the spirit of the filter is to encourage flagging of questions/answers instead of voting or commenting to explain what was wrong... Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 20:31
  • 16
    +1 This still requires clarification.
    – user764357
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 0:17
  • 4
    I'm blown away by the number of people up in arms about this! It's really easy to calmly and nicely explain why something could be better without being a turd about it. Honestly I don't even think there's value in a downvote docking reputation at all... Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 3:43
  • 57
    ±1 on this question, because I'm wishy-washy.
    – ajb
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 6:45
  • 17
    As somebody who has experienced downvoting on what seem like perfectly good questions, I find this rule to be frustrating and inane. How can a poster attempt to improve if no explanation is offered?
    – Carmax
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 13:21
  • 5
    I believe that if I or someone else downvotes a question or answer, there is a obligation to at the very least leave a comment so that the question/answer can be improved. A downvote without a corresponding comment is worse than a downvote without a comment. Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 15:32
  • 10
    "the arrow pointing southward hath been clicked"
    – IcedDante
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 18:30

13 Answers 13

95

No.

Explaining votes is almost pure noise, meta-conversation and punditry. Your votes are your own to do with as you please; you owe no one an explanation, nor is a discussion of your voting habits likely to be helpful.

What is helpful is constructive feedback:

Please consider adding a comment if you think this post can be improved.

^^^That's the message displayed to users with less than 2000 reputation when they downvote a post without commenting first. Emphasis mine; please note that it never asks you to "explain your vote", it asks you to explain how the post might be improved.

That was the final outcome of the classic discussion on explaining downvotes, and remains the only encouragement the system provides for commenting when voting. In spite of countless requests, demands and outright threats for more direct voting feedback requirements, you've never been and never will be required to explain your votes.

Perhaps the big mistake here was in removing the message for voters above 2K... Y'all remember that it exists, but forgot what it says!

Obsession

Over the past couple of years, I've watched several experienced, high-rep users falling apart on Stack Overflow in a very public, deeply-saddening fashion: getting into progressively uglier fights with other users over voting. The real tragedy here is that these folks had influence, real reputation, not the fake imitation sort we assign a number to. Their criticisms held weight - but by commenting on their votes instead of the problems they observed they squandered this rep, and by obsessively commenting in cases where they saw no hope for improvement they beat their heads against these stone walls until senseless.

The underlying problem of course is that we aren't fast enough at removing crap. So we've spent the past few years working on better moderation tools, faster pipelines for reviewing and deleting cruft, improving policies for evaluating questions and answers...

...but the problem of obsession remains: if you're fixating on every piece of trash you see - and many of you are - then anything less than perfection leads into this increasingly combative spiral. I've been there myself; I saw it turn something that was enjoyable into drudgery, and it concerns me deeply to see others on that path.

Blacklisting stupid comment patterns is at best treating a symptom, but it is a particularly damaging symptom. Initial results show at least a glimmer of hope that we might discourage bad habits before they become an obsession; time will tell.

Improved guidance

Sadly, the biggest mistake I made here was in the guidance itself. I've been through three iterations of this now, but as this discussion indicates the purpose is still unclear; in my experience, that usually means I'm not being blunt enough. So with that in mind, here's attempt #4:

Don't comment on your downvote. If you think this post can be *improved*, please offer **specific guidance.**

With that in mind, I'll answer your specific questions:

  1. I think indicating that you've downvoted is an extremely bad idea regardless of how you communicate it, but if you're determined to do so then I'm not going to try and stop you - just don't be tricked into thinking it's required or encouraged.

  2. ^^^

  3. Factual criticism is always good, as a lesson to other readers if not the author. Just keep it constructive - criticism that comes off as preachy or mean-spirited can be counter-productive by leading readers to assume you have an axe to grind rather than knowledge to impart.

  4. ^^^

  5. ^^^

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    -1, just because I can.
    – user554546
    Commented Feb 10, 2015 at 20:24
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    why does this "-1 debate" remind me of Prohibition
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 10, 2015 at 21:21
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    Because of all the bathtub gin, @gnat.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Feb 10, 2015 at 21:21
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    Let me be the first to offer criticism of your latest tooltip: it assumes the comments I make after downvoting answers have the objective of helping the answerer improve their answer. This is rarely the case. My objective is usually to 1) succinctly make visible to casual readers, who cannot see that the answer has downvotes, that I think it has serious problems and they should be sceptical of what they have read, 2) make sure the answerer understands what the problems are, and that they are serious, and 3) try to encourage the answerer to delete or completely rewrite their crap answer.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Feb 10, 2015 at 21:38
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    What's wrong with saying "this post has serious problems ...[details follow]" then, @Mark? IOW, why rely on ambiguous shorthand; just say what you mean.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Feb 10, 2015 at 21:42
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    @Shog9 I agree that this is possible, and will do my best to do it. My criticism in the comment above is directed only at the emphasis on improved and guidance in the tooltip, not the ban on "-1" comments or even the wording of the tooltip per se. The only cases where I'm really going to miss the shorthand are where I run into the character limit. I think answerers will be sad to not know for sure what motivated their downvotes, and as an answerer I'll hope for actual downvote explanations, but as a commenter I can still mostly achieve my goals within the guidelines you lay out here.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Feb 10, 2015 at 21:50
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    Although if I get mod-flagged for 'rude' comments that start with "this answer is so badly written it is utterly incomprehensible; [list of confusing quotes from the post]" or "every factual claim in this answer is wildly incorrect: [list of factual errors from the post]", I'm going to feel sad. One of the minor advantages of the ambiguous shorthand is that it gives you a standard way of expressing an overall negative sentiment about a post that is definitely not rude. Having to instead express that sentiment in words is going to run into many people's... unique sensitivities.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Feb 10, 2015 at 21:55
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    Passive-aggressive != polite, @Mark. If you think what you want to say is going to come off as rude, then... just don't say it. For example, I rarely ever bother commenting on incomprehensible posts: there's no reason to bother saying what's plainly obvious to everyone; vote, flag & move on. OTOH, if every fact in a post is incorrect, then saying that isn't rude, it's honest - much more honest than a passive "-1". And above all, be honest.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Feb 10, 2015 at 22:07
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    FWIW, if you're hitting the character limit there are no hard restrictions; abbreviate as you must.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Feb 10, 2015 at 22:09
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    -1 for the dumb censorship script. Not requiring comments for downvotes is somewhat understandable (though I still disagree). Preventing people from giving the reason for their downvote is horrible. Commented Dec 21, 2015 at 18:25
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    Your post says ""I think indicating that you've downvoted is an extremely bad idea regardless of how you communicate it, but if you're determined to do so then I'm not going to try and stop you - just don't be tricked into thinking it's required or encouraged."" <---------------- Yet you DO stop people.
    – barlop
    Commented Apr 29, 2016 at 17:17
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    ... Answers might be improved or not. Comment are mostly for future readers. I usually don't downvote unless the comment is not visible or author's reply muddies the waters for future readers. An alternative to "-1" is to mark a comment somehow, to indicate "the answer has issues, beware!" (though reddish color means deleted on SO). If I see a downvote on an answer; it would be nice to correlate it with a reason (the downvoter may be mistaken) -- It is useful not only to the author of the answer...
    – jfs
    Commented Nov 2, 2017 at 9:32
  • 1
    I'm not even going to read it, @jfs. Either I'll give you a trite response, or I'll write an even longer series of comments; either way, it's a mess. If you have a concern about this answer that I can express in an edit, you should be able to express it in a comment; if you have a longer set of concerns, ask a new question and I'll answer at length in an answer. 30,000 characters allows much less work to format a coherent response than 600.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Nov 2, 2017 at 19:01
  • 1
    This answer isn't addressing revenge voting, @jfs; it's addressing a question about comments. Have you seen someone using this justification? Post a link & I'll set 'em straight.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Nov 3, 2017 at 15:25
  • 4
    If a post is downvoted, it is either because it can be improved or because it should be flagged. In the case of it being flagged, the OP learns something. In the case where it can be improved, without feedback, the OP learns nothing. I don't think that every downvote should have a comment, but at least every down voted post should have a reason why (even if the person posting that improvement didn't downvote)
    – UKMonkey
    Commented Jan 17, 2018 at 9:45
112

This comment:

This post would be better if you explained X, Y, Z.

comes across as "someone has an idea for a possible enhancement to my post, but it's not needed".

This comment:

-1: This post would be better if you explained X, Y, Z.

comes across as "oh okay I had better make those changes then; also I now know who downvoted me so the mystery is gone and I'm not waiting to find out about A, B, C other, mystery criticism from a second user".

Both are better than the ideal striven for by this block, which is more like:

Dear sir; I sincerely hope that this missive finds you in good keeping. How are the tomatoes this year? I am writing to inform you that, with regret, I felt it necessary to submit a 'down rate' on your posting. The reasons are in fact three-fold but suffice it to say I feel that X, Y, Z would render your posting useful in a sense that, currently, it is not. All the best to you and Sarah, Lightness.

Are you still supposed to explain your downvotes? Depends who you ask. If you ask the "owners" of this website: no, or if you do, do it verbosely. If you ask me and an overwhelming majority of SE's userbase... well, I'll let you guess. :)

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    While I share your frustration at the block, your trolling third version here is plainly not what Shog wants us to convert the second version to. I just wish he'd tell us what he does want us to convert it to, since, as you say, the first version gives a completely different impression to the post's author and is an inadequate substitute for the second. Perhaps the intent is for us to write the first version, but if so, Shog should bite the bullet and say that explicitly.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Feb 1, 2015 at 20:34
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    Proof that the first comment method works? stackoverflow.com/a/28240175/2117156 =~] Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 10:03
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    @JamieBarker: Clearly not. Firstly -- the reply to your comment shows that your comment is not what made the difference. (So if anything, it would be "Proof that the no-comment method works.") Secondly -- while I'm sure we can all agree that the first-comment method works sometimes (or at least, are willing to stipulate to such a claim), the question is whether it works as often and as effectively as the second-comment method. If you wanted to try to make that case, you'd need more than a single example.
    – ruakh
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 7:56
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    Perhaps if you rephrase This post would be better if you explained X, Y, Z. to-> X,Y,Z is necessary for clarity, the other type of responses that you mentioned become redundant.
    – user
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 13:34
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    @user5061: Of course. The people I work with are professionals and do not require a slew of smileys to protect their feelings when a flaw is presented to them in a scientific manner. Furthermore, they are grateful when the consequences of the flaw are clearly and concisely indicated. Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 19:56
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    @user5061: What is "provocative" about indicating simply that a -1 was cast and that X, Y, Z were responsible? It's not like I wrote "you suck" next to it. You appear to be being at least mildly over-sensitive, in my view! A good scientist looks at results objectively, rather than taking them personally. Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 20:27
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    @user5061 "Negative comments are counterproductive.". On the contrary, they're the most productive. A neutral comment (e.g. "maybe you're right") is a complete waste of time. A positive comment (e.g. "+1, I've seen the same problem and your solution worked for me too") is generally not massively useful (but it still is a little bit, since at least you know the solution applies to more than one person), unless there are additional helpful details. A "negative" comment that says "this is wrong because X, Y, Z [and sufficiently wrong to warrant a downvote]" is the most useful type of comment.
    – Bruno
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 20:58
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit You completely misunderstood what i meant by neutral. Saying "This has severe flaws, namely B,C,D" is a neutral version of "How did you come up with such a terrible idea, B,C,D are flaws.". I like criticism. I dont like people inserting their problems at home, in their criticism.
    – user
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 21:05
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    @user5061 There are cases where the answer is sufficiently long and elaborate, the answerer has obviously got most of it right, but a couple of statements in the middle are completely wrong. In those cases, I don't downvote (because overall the answer is mostly useful), I might even upvote. In other cases, a couple of wrong statements in the answer makes it wrong or misleading overall, in which case I'd downvote. Being able to say "-1" is useful to differentiate between these two cases: that can also be useful for third-party readers.
    – Bruno
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 21:12
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    @user5061 Considering the length limit on comments, you can generally interpret "+1 but X, Y, Z" as "I agree, this answer is mostly correct but X, Y, Z" and "-1 because X, Y, Z" as "This is mostly wrong and misleading because X, Y, Z" . Same but shorter, and it's useful to know where the commenter stands on the mostly right or mostly wrong fence, both to the answerer or to a third party reader who might need further reading to understand and asset the content of the answer.
    – Bruno
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 21:21
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    @user5061 I generally prefer to make use of those extra characters to improve the technical aspect of the comments rather than trying to wrap the fact I've downvoted in some sort of soft cushion. Agreed it's not a bad thing to take into account other users' feelings, but the same people who'd take offence by reading "-1" would also generally take offence by getting that downvote anyway (and possibly blame me for commenting at the same time, rightly or wrongly).
    – Bruno
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 21:41
  • 2
    @user5601: It's not "10 extra characters". It's 10*(the number of comments made in response to post quality across 8.7 million questions) extra characters, in a space on the GUI where brevity is really helpful for legibility. Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 22:15
  • 2
    I would simply write "I will remove my downvote if you adequately explain X, Y and Z". It says everything that you wanted to say, and also gives the respondent a reason to do what you ask. Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 23:32
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    @DavidWallace: "-1: X, Y, Z" says precisely that without the noisy waffle. It is not rude. It does not take away a reason to do what I ask. Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 1:15
  • 2
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit A lot of people mistake being direct for being rude.
    – J. Steen
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 13:01
87

My reading of the impetus behind the feature is that it's intended to break any connection between a user's vote and her comment. Commenting on the post is (still) good -- even/especially if your comment is a critique -- but it should not be tied to the fact that you voted. If you have something to say, say it. If you have an opinion on the post's value, vote on it. Don't mix the two up.

The fact that the filter is so simple-minded and easily defeated I take as meaning that this is just supposed to be a prod at the most substance-free comments: "-1 you're wrong", e.g., rather than an absolute prohibition. This philosophy is also seen in the how-can-you-possibly-get-this-wrong suggested edit review audits -- catching the worst may be just enough.

So, to your literal question "Am I supposed to explain my downvotes?", the answer is "No, you're not supposed to explain your votes; just comment on the post."

That said, I'm not really sure this is worth the aggravation; it would be nice to see less back-and-forth about votes in comments, but I'm not sure a filter is the best way. Time will tell, I suppose.

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    This still leaves a vast grey area; if voting is the mechanism for remarking upon a post's value, and commenting is the mechanism for remarking upon specific flaws, am I allowed to indicate that a specific flaw that I am pointing out significantly affects a post's value? That grey area encompasses every downvote I ever have placed or will place - even if we take your (entirely plausible) reading of the rule's spirit as correct, which I'm not certain it is.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Feb 1, 2015 at 19:47
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    I'm afraid I don't know what you find gray about that, @MarkAmery. Any part of a post might cause you to judge it worth your vote, one specific flaw included. Commenting on that flaw, whether you voted or not, would be useful too. So yes; do both or either independently, as you see fit.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 1, 2015 at 19:54
  • 2
    Let me try to clarify, then. You have indicated that "this post is unhelpful" is a bad comment (because it addresses only value, not specific flaws), that "your claim about the frobinate method is incorrect" is a good comment (because it addresses a specific flaw) and "-1 because your claim about the frobnicate method is incorrect" is a bad comment (because it permits the post's author to know what specific flaws caused their post to be downvoted, which we apparently want to discourage). But is "this post is unhelpful because your claim about the frobinate method is incorrect" good or bad?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Feb 1, 2015 at 20:00
  • To give concrete examples, my post on the thread in which the ban was introduced contains relevant examples in which I've converted concise and clear voting-related comments I've posted in the past to versions that remark on value but not on voting. But I'm unsure whether even these are over the line and sit within the realm of behaviour that is supposed to be discouraged.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Feb 1, 2015 at 20:05
  • 7
    Unambiguously just fine. The first is not useful as a comment because it gives no foothold; there's no indication of what's unhelpful. The last doesn't become contaminated by that verbiage; it's still useful, because it contains specific critique like the second. I think I see where you're going, though: what's the substantive difference between writing out "this post is unhelpful ... (followed by reasons)" and the shorthand "-1 ... (reasons)": to that I have no good answer. Like I said, I'm not sure this implementation of the policy is worth the trouble.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 1, 2015 at 20:07
  • 6
    @MarkAmery: You got the conclusion wrong. "-1 because your claim about the frobnicate method is incorrect" is not a bad comment because it lets the posts author know that he has a critical flaw, which all by itself justifies a barrage of downvotes, but because you said that you personally downvoted. Thus, "this post is unhelpful because your claim about the frobinate method is incorrect", which omits that fact and isn't unneccessarily offensive, is a good comment. (That was my interpretation of the rules and guidance received. And those rules are a tad too mechanical, imho.) Commented Feb 1, 2015 at 20:20
  • 2
    @MarkAmery I remember reading your answer; I think that your examples there make too much of the "conversion". Your first example I think would be best if it were just the last sentence. The second one I personally like better in its revised form. The third I think would stand just fine without the first sentence. Then again, I wouldn't presume to tell you that they're wrong.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 1, 2015 at 20:20
  • 8
    I agree with this answer (+1). Everyone should concentrate on the content, less on the number of votes. But forbidding it is equally silly. Let people just be. Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 10:08
  • 1
    Of course if a comment appears within 10 seconds of a downvote, you pretty much know who it is anyway, so whilst it may be 'intended to break any connection between a user's vote and her comment.', that doesn't work in practice
    – abligh
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 13:12
  • 5
    @abligh: Such observations are wrong more often than you'd think. I say this as someone who has more than a few times had to write "I didn't downvote you!" and then defend myself against a 3-day onslaught of butthurt OP assuming I'm lying for no apparent reason. Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 18:13
  • 3
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit Yes, this does happen. I've even got "revenge downvotes" from people after I've criticised their answers, at the same time as someone else has downvoted them (yes, I do appreciate the irony of my making an assumption about who downvoted me, as a result of their assumption about who downvoted them). But that doesn't mean you have to write "I didn't downvote you", or anything at all for that matter. If somebody posts a butthurt rant, it's really not your problem. Ignore it and move on. Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 20:57
  • 3
    @Deduplicator We should all stop and think when someone says that writing "-1" is unnecessarily offensive...
    – kapa
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 6:13
  • 1
    @MarkAmery In other words: don't get pedantic about this. If you want to post something that you think will help either readers or writers, post it. Don't worry about whether it's an explanation for a vote or not; it doesn't matter. Just use the comments to say things that you think will help someone when they read it, and be willing to ask yourself the question of whether it's helpful or not.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 11:53
  • 2
    @MarkAmery "this post is unhelpful because your claim about the frobinate method is incorrect" I see the first portion of that comment as redundant/noisy. Just get to the point. "Your claim about the frobinate method is incorrect because ..."
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 16:46
  • 2
    @KevinB perhaps that's what Shog would like us to do, but your approach loses the distinction between "There is a fundamental and serious problem with your post, which is X. Your answer is either worthless or harmful, and you should delete or fix it as soon as you are able" and "There is a minor and unimportant error in paragraph 16, which is X. I point this out because some readers might be interested, and because I like brandishing my intellectual willy". I, and others like Lightness, think that this distinction is important, and want to know whether we're now expected not to communicate it.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 23:01
32

Explaining downvotes (any votes) is not required.

Once you have cast a downvote, if you are considering a comment, take a second to consider the current author of the post, and also whether or not someone else already addressed the issue (if so, perhaps upvote the other comment, move on).

Would they benefit from an explanation of what was wrong with their post and make improvements to it or correct the issue?

  • Yes: Explain what you felt was worthy of downvoting in the hopes of seeing it either corrected, improved, or removed. If you feel involved enough that you want the OP to know you downvoted and perhaps are open to changing your downvote, and you think including -1 somehow indicates that, then it can be useful for the OP to know to explain to you the changes or corrections made.
  • No: Move on
0
31

Voting is anonymous by design. Because of this, you are not only totally free to abstain of explaining why you voted - whole system is carefully built and tuned to protect you from being guessed that you vote at all, even when someone else wants to know.


That said... I downvoted maybe few thousands low quality posts and pain and effort involved in making a difference goes far beyond tiny puny -1 rep penalty for the answer downvote.

Don't expect to make a difference if you just drop downvote and run away. Chances for it to work are less than 50:50, probably something like 30 against 70 or even 20:80. Yes, and that's fair, low effort makes low impact.

When other readers look at the post having negative score without an explanation or with an "explanation" like -1 this post is bad, they tend to think (unless it's obviously horrible) WTH guy invested an effort to write something and got downvoted for nothing. That's a fertile ground for sympathy upvotes and that's what makes many of the click-and-run downvotes useless.

  • You might hope that your vote made an indication for future readers that the post is of low quality, but that's not what happens. Sympathy upvotes come and obscure it and post looks like okay again.

To ensure substantial impact of downvotes, one has to invest respectively substantial effort into explaining what's wrong with the post. One has to focus on analyzing and describing the issues in a downvoted post, to make sure that future readers will agree that negative score is deserved.


As for that infamous -1 regex, I think its purpose was quite thoroughly explained:

block successfully motivated a significant number of authors to expand their comments, not just to replace or remove the prefix... dropping this restriction for comments that exceed 120 characters in length would preserve the bulk of the positive benefits, while getting out of the way of folks who're taking the time to write reasonably informative content...

...efforts to educate folks about constructive commentary are the best option we have. I apologize if you found this... annoying, but please keep in mind the bigger cost of doing nothing.

To answer your specific questions, based on above, you are free as before to state that you downvoted and write -1 to indicate that, only that nobody else but you and Stack Exchange developers can tell whether this is true or not.

You are also free as before to express negative opinion on the post (as long as your comment isn't flaggable in a usual way)... and if your comment manages to get over 120 chars, there will be no block on your way at all.

In case if you're additionally interested in comment making a substantial impact (with or without -1, brief or lengthy, whatever), consider phrasing it in a way that can't be easily countered with something like +1 great post, down votes are unfair.

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  • 3
    You are missing the point of downvotes somewhat. If an answer is downvoted, but the author never pays any attention to these downvotes they still have a purpose: to warn those seeking answers that this is a low quality question.
    – jwg
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 11:45
  • 2
    @jwg no I'm not, just read the answer: "You might hope that your vote made an indication for future readers that the post is of low quality, but that's not what happens. Sympathy upvotes come and obscure it and post looks like okay again"
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 15:04
  • 3
    @gnat: That's a good point, actually: in my experience (though I have no data) people don't "cancel out" my downvote if I've explained it ... and for this to take effect it has to be clear that the downvote is intrinsically linked to that explanation. Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 16:44
  • 1
    If I'm the first downvoter, I usually try to include an explanation. But sometimes I just agree with a previous complaint, and I'll add my downvote to the chorus without feeling the need to comment myself.
    – Barmar
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 16:50
  • 'Sympathy upvotes': do you have any evidence that these take place in anything like the numbers needed to cancel out many downvotes? If so, what is the explanation for the many many answers with low scores?
    – jwg
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 17:21
  • @jwg as an example, some related statistics was provided for Workplace.SE here. Answerer (Shog) mentions in comments that this is observed network wide : 'On other sites, we tend to see a lot of the "disagreement" arising from questions that no one really cares about except for one or two insiders and the asker...' You can make a similar support question over here at MSO if you're interested in SO-specific stats
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 17:27
  • I don't quite see how this statistics answer my question. Nothing here shows whether upvotes were given in sympathy or not.
    – jwg
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 17:31
  • @jwg to me, when post has both votes up and down, this qualifies as "sympathy" upvotes (especially in answers, where voters down have real motivation since they actually "pay" for this with their rep). But then again, if you can come up with a more accurate definition, feel free to ask for voting stats that match it. FWIW I just found a discussion over here that you might be interested in: Upvotes that “cancel out” downvotes
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 17:36
  • This is clearly a deeply flawed definition.
    – jwg
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 17:38
  • @jwg "if you can come up with a more accurate definition, feel free to ask for voting stats that match it"
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 17:39
  • Just because it's difficult to measure something, does not mean that that thing is not real, or that it is equivalent to nonsense which is easy to measure.
    – jwg
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 17:40
  • note I voted down thousands times and have built... a general understanding on how things go after I vote
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 17:42
  • The plural of anecdote is not data.
    – jwg
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 18:51
  • this is not a data - an explanation of how I concluded that definiton mentioned above is good enough to me
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 18:53
  • "Don't expect to make a difference if you just drop downvote and run away." - And yet that's how the system works. That's what people do.
    – johny why
    Commented Jun 13, 2021 at 13:36
13

Choosing between:

comment: -1 because you didnt provide A.

and

comment: Providing A is needed for clarity.

Both can accomplish the same goal; that is improve the post and hint the poster that A is needed for good posts.

In the first case though, you are actually much more likely to cause negative emotional reaction to the other person. Only gain would be to make that "hint" mentioned before, more verbose.

Note: as you can see 2nd comment doesnt have to be polite, as other presented it to be, to "prove" their point. It simply has to not be provocative.

Is that tradeoff really worth it?

Given the fact OS has very specific colouring when it comes to different type of feedback on user behaviour, and the way reward and punish is built, I think option 1 should be prohibited. (Too much) negative feedback is counter productive, and should be reserved for more severe cases.

Am I still supposed to explain my downvotes or not?

Personally, I would provide feedback on post improvement after a downvote, if post can be improved, without being intentionally provocative.

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    "Both can accomplish the same goal" No, they can't. And the notion that -1 is "rude" is in your mind. As discussed elsewhere. Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 21:33
  • 9
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit It's not rude, but it is antagonistic and makes the author less likely to accept the criticism constructively. It makes them more likely to be mad at you for downvoting them than to fix the post because you pointed out how they could improve it. Just removing that -1 dramatically increases the odds of the rest of the comment actually get read.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 22:17
  • @Servy Perhaps "rude" is too strong as a word for what i had in mind, seeing you exactly describe what i had in mind.
    – user
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 22:24
  • @Servy: I don't really care whether the comment gets read. It's in the author's best interests to learn from my expertise and if they would rather get uppity about my telling them that I downvoted their post, than listen and learn, then that's their own problem. I'm certainly not inclined to sacrifice all the other factors enumerated throughout this meta "thread" just so that I can manipulate the author away from behaving in such a ridiculous fashion! Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 16:46
  • 3
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit If you don't care if anyone reads it, and have no interest in the problem actually being addressed, then why comment in the first place? And why do you have a problem with the site adding features to encourage people to structure their comments in a way that does make them more likely to really be read, and acted on positively? Even if you don't care if your comments are read, I certainly do, and I support SE's attempts to improve the quality of the content on their site.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 16:50
  • @Servy: Because I hope that the author will take on board what I've said. Again, ultimately, if they refuse to do so solely due to overdeveloped sensibilities at seeing "-1", then that's their problem, and my responsibility (such as it is) ends at that point. Optimising for this case is contrary to the best interests of the site in general. We are not nannies. Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 17:18
  • 3
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit ` if they refuse to do so solely due to overdeveloped sensibilities at seeing "-1", then that's their problem` No, it's not. It's everyone's problem if feedback is regularly being ignored because it's phrased unconstructively. It means that the quality of the content on the site is lower, because you felt that it was important for you to go out of your way to actively try to antagonize someone you were providing feedback to, despite the site's best efforts to prevent you. When the site's content doesn't get improved, everyone loses.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 17:53
  • @Servy: lol "regularly". And if you really think that writing "-1:" to save time is "going out of my way to actively try to antagonize someone" then not only have you completely misinterpreted everything I've said above but you are somewhat out of your mind! Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 17:58
  • 3
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't know why you see it as being funny. I see correct criticisms of answers ignored or debated without really having its merits considered quite regularly, often because the criticisms were interpreted as accusatory by the post author (whether the perception was accurate or not). It is a very serious problem, and one that you apparently have no interest in even considering. That's a shame. It makes me sad, not happy.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 18:02
  • 1
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit All you need to do is not post the -1 before the post. You're going out of your way to add something that evidence has shown to be counter-productive, when you could just omit those two characters from the comment and leave the rest of it as it was. You are then going out of your way to try to subvert the block, when you could instead just not include the information that you downvoted.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 18:04
  • @Servy: I dispute your "evidence" (particularly since you have not shown it). Further, I find the mere suggestion of it to be laughable. That's what's funny. But, since you and your friend user5061 are heading into the territory of (a) misrepresenting my position, and (b) accusing me of hateful acts with no basis, just as you did last time I accidentally got into a conversation with you, I suggest that we stop this here. It does seem ironic that the worst response I've ever had to writing "-1" is right here, from you, on a discussion about whether or not to do so. Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 18:18
6

Yes, you are still supposed to explain your downvotes. That means that you don't have to, but in many cases it can help to the original poster.

Nothing has changed in this regard. The notification upon downvotes is also probably still intact, isn't it?

I take the discouragement of +/-1 as a mere hint that you should not just write +/-1, but let it follow by an explanation. So yes, one should explain if one already writes +/-1.

Also I think that the most important thing is discussing the content and much less discussing the mundane votes. But I would never forbid +/-1 because of that. They are just general expressions of agreement/disagreement. This is silly.

3
  • No, you're not supposed to explain your downvotes. You can if you like to, but no one can make you.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 20:34
  • @Makoto Tell this to the original asker. I know that and explained it in the second sentence of this answer. Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 21:07
  • 1
    "I take the discouragement of +/-1 as a mere hint that you should not just write +/-1, but let it follow by an explanation. So yes, one should explain if one already writes +/-1." This doesn't make sense. Writing such comments is precisely what is no longer possible due to the relatively new block. Other than that flaw in logical reasoning, though, +1 for your answer. Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 21:35
6

Much of the writing on this question seems to have the logic here backwards. IE 'I don't like the ban on -1, therefore I interpret it as a ban on explaining downvotes (or explaining downvotes concisely), and because that is a bad outcome, it shows I was right about the -1 ban'.

First off, I think the -1 ban is silly too, for the same reason the original post got so many downvotes, and as more than adequately explained by (inter alia) @LightnessRacesInOrbit.

However, I do not conclude that that ban means we are no longer supposed to explain downvotes. It is a regexp, and a dumb regexp. Explaining downvotes is helpful. Nothing prevents you from from explaining the downvote, just using -1 to do so (without using any of the trivial ways to get past the ban).

Moreover, as a poster who occasionally gets downvoted, I'd like to know why. Did I answer wrongly and can I improve my answer? Or is it just that the downvoter posted their own answer and thinks this would help their score.

If I'm downvoted and there is no explanation, I will ask for one ("OK so why the downvote?") as I suspect others do. That's more noisy than explanation at the time of the downvote ("-1: you failed to consider X, Y, and Z" or even "-1: UR A LOOZR").

And if I downvote, I will give an explanation, politely, e.g. "I don't think that can be right - you've omitted X, Y and Z considerations"; whether it says '-1' or 'downvoted' or not is largely irrelevant, and the time of the downvote and the comment will normally be so close that it's obvious it's me (so I don't buy the 'breaking the link between commenter and downvote').

If people get into silly downvote wars, the problem to address is that behaviour, and unconstructive comments ("-1: UR A LOOZR" etc.). A key point about constructive comments is that they should say what is wrong with the answer or how it could be improved. Looking at comments on an answer to this question, '-1: this is nonsense' is an example of a comment that is not constructive (by this measure), because (whilst it may or may not be true) it doesn't explain why it's nonsense; i.e. it doesn't help the person answering improve the answer, or (perhaps more importantly), tell someone reading the answer why they should disregard it. IE it does no more than the downvote itself, and is therefore superfluous.

Suggesting that we should hide constructive criticism of poor answers (aka explain our downvotes) is not the answer.

2
  • 2
    I think the reason for the 'backwards' reasoning is that nobody is really sure what behaviour Shog is trying to stop. Josh Caswell has gotten the closest to postulating a plausible 'spirit of the regex' but even his interpretation seems bizarre and unreasonable (as discussed in his comment exchange with me below his answer) and it's unclear whether what he has written matches Shog's intention.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 13:29
  • @MarkAmery sure. The -1 ban is deeply mysterious (to put it politely). However, I see no reason to interpret it as a prohibition on constructively explaining downvotes. If it is meant to be such a prohibition, it is even more wrong-headed than many thought.
    – abligh
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 13:31
4

Yes, please keep commenting when you think there is something incorrect in an answer.

There are two main ways to express disapproval with an answer on Stack Exchange: downvoting and commenting. The problem is that this new policy effectively encourages you to make an exclusive choice between the two.

Imagine a Stack Overflow where you mainly get votes, but where downvotes are almost never accompanied with comments. This is terrible both for the answerers (who might simply not get why their answers were downvoted) and for the other readers (who might simply not know about the field to see what's wrong themselves, thereby finding it difficult to know how to choose what to believe).

Imagine a Stack Overflow where you mainly get comments, but where downvotes are extremely rare. Wouldn't that change the nature of it completely? This would probably turn it into some form of Wikipedia or its discussion pages.

This new policy implicitly legitimises the revenge-downvoters' behaviour by discouraging those willing to take the time to contribute a additional comment instead. Between downvoting and commenting, downvoting is by far the simple choice. Downvoting on its own doesn't help improving the content of the site, unfortunately.

4
  • 1
    Did someone actually disagree with this answer, or was the down vote ironic?
    – mbm29414
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 22:58
  • 2
    Maybe both? Yes keep commenting when you think something is incorrect, and no this new policy doesn't "tell off" those willing to contribute a comment, it suggests that they write better comments, which at this point we have data that suggests that goal has been met by this change.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 3, 2015 at 23:30
  • @KevinB "Telling off" might have been too strong indeed. I still think that anything that has the potential to discourage explicit feedback is worse than taking the risk of having useless "-1" feedback once in a while. The presentation of comments is sufficiently discrete for people who want to ignore them to do so (especially if they're short, since quality is partly assumed to be linked to length), yet they can be particularly valuable to those who're willing to read them.
    – Bruno
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 0:13
  • +1 for pointing out the failure of logic linking this measure with the problem it's supposed to fix, revenge downvoting.
    – jwg
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 11:43
0

Well, the Expected Behavior section on the site mentions1 this:

Above all, be honest. If you see misinformation, vote it down. Add comments indicating what, specifically, is wrong. Provide better answers of your own. Last but not least, edit and improve the existing questions and answers! By doing these things, you are helping keep Stack Exchange a great place to share knowledge of our craft.

(Emphasis mine.)

So, yes, at least in the case of "misinformation", you are encouraged to add a comment along with your downvote.


1 Visited: 2021-10-04.

6
  • 1
    Worth noting that for <2K you get prompted (with a notice) by the system to add a comment when you downvote something :/
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 4, 2021 at 10:13
  • 4
    Well, you found an example of poor documentation there. You don't comment what is wrong. As per shog9's answer, you comment what can be improved. That's a 100% flip of tone and will lead to far more constructive interactions.
    – Gimby
    Commented Oct 4, 2021 at 10:19
  • In my utmost honest position, I prefer to make a very careful evaluation of whether leaving a comment is indeed fruitful and worthwhile. "Many experienced users will tell you that they used to leave helpful comments along with their downvotes, but have stopped doing so because of the unpleasant blowback they received from unreasonable users. Even for those users who remain rational, commenting about votes almost inevitably leads to extended, off-topic discussions, which we strive to avoid." (ref)
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 4, 2021 at 10:39
  • Moreover, as already explained by Gimby, a post can be downvoted without technically having something "wrong", other than the fact that the downvoter considered the post not useful. The help center contains details which have not been updated over time to better reflect common usage.
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 4, 2021 at 10:41
  • 2
    @Gimby I think the text from the Help Center would be better off being updated replacing "what, specifically, is wrong" with "what, specifically, can be improved". The latter sounds far more constructive, and at this point I agree with Shog9. But regardless, the text from the Help Center does encourage to add a comment.
    – MC Emperor
    Commented Oct 4, 2021 at 11:08
  • 1
    @MCEmperor yes it does, but as others have said that bit of text has not aged well. It kind of assumes the world is not full of people who have paper thin skin. If you dare to comment while a question/answer is being downvoted... better hold on to your ankles. I would not recommend to do it so casually, it is a personal choice to be made by everyone. If you do it, fine. If you don't do it, also very fine.
    – Gimby
    Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 10:31
-12

I'd have to say that drive-by downvoting feels a bit like vandalism to me, even if it's not my post. Sure, you're not required to explain yourself, but I think we should encourage it as constructive criticism, especially for new users who are the most likely to make that kind of mistake.

If all I know is, "people don't like it," then that's not nearly as helpful as, "This is how it doesn't fit the standards."

My $0.02

4
  • Seems you didn't get what shog9 is after, at all. Which is the reason you are hung up about the votes. And anyway, you should think about what votes are for, and who they are for mostly: Not the post-owner, but everyone else. Commented Mar 3, 2015 at 11:07
  • Maybe so, but that would mean that I didn't get sufficient explanation before posting this. Perhaps there could be a link that appears for any negative score that pops up such an explanation?
    – AaronD
    Commented Mar 3, 2015 at 15:24
  • There is the popup on the arrows you use for rating the content. Most of the time, that's all the explanation neccessary for the vote. I aim to additionally use a comment to explain what's wrong / could be enhanced for any post which merits it (and many which don't). Commented Mar 3, 2015 at 15:42
  • Okay, but I've never seen that or at least paid attention to it because I've never felt the need to downvote. And the default interpretation seems risky enough to not click it just to see what it tells me. So I just hovered over it here, and it said, "This answer is not useful." If that's what you mean, then I think it's misleading because not useful to me doesn't necessarily mean not useful to someone else.
    – AaronD
    Commented Mar 3, 2015 at 17:09
-15

Management discourages certain reasons to downvote. More precisely, management discourages explanation of certain reasons to downvote.

I grasp why management would discourage explanation of certain points, yet such discouragement comes at a cost. In my view, management has been handling the matter less wisely than it might. The unintended result is a growing number of random-seeming downvotes, no one knows why. Explanations are withheld because explaining downvoters credibly fear sanctions.

This really isn't a good state of affairs. Experienced users and longtime contributors want more freedom to safely state the reasons for a downvote.

Besides, if I am downvoting, my reason to downvote might be wrong. If I cannot safely state my reason, then shall I not miss the subsequent discussion which might have changed my mind?

We all feel the growing threat of online censorship. Does management feel it, though? I do not believe Stack Exchange's management to be malicious but do believe that they judge themselves to be benign. This is inherently a problem, isn't it?

For they are the censors.

UPDATE

My answer is not very popular as of this writing. That's as may be, but two commenters agree (or at any rate insist) that they do not understand the answer. Very well.

  • Suppose that I downvote a homework question. Suppose that I explain my downvote. What happens next?
  • suppose that i downvote a question styled like the item you are now reading, suppose that i explain my downvote what happens next?

If you said, "You are not supposed to downvote for such reasons," you might be right, but you would also be making my point, wouldn't you?

There are also one or two annoying comments asking me for definitions of terms or for unknown organizational details of Stack Exchange's management. I suppose that it is possible that such censorship as exists flows chiefly from our community moderators but I doubt it. Otherwise, I have no response.

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  • 7
    "censor" er what. what are you talking about? what censorship? What do you even mean by "management"? It's mostly users that came to that realization. Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 20:27
  • @FélixGagnon-Grenier Suppose that I downvote a homework question. Suppose that I explain my downvote. What happens next?
    – thb
    Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 20:31
  • 1
    Don't take it personally, but I am not interested in playing along with rhetoric questions. What is your point? Are you trying to answer to my very clear questions? Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 20:33
  • 5
    This seems to be running into conspiracy theories and spread fears of authority. It doesn't seem to be all that constructive for discussion.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 20:33
  • @FélixGagnon-Grenier suppose that i downvote a question styled like this comment, suppose that i explain my downvote what happens next?
    – thb
    Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 20:33
  • 5
    No, I do not. It's unclear what you mean by "management", it's unclear what you mean by "censor". I think you misunderstand the groups that intervene on meta. Instead of leading me to say whatever it is you want me to answer, just say you point already. By the way, it would me much simpler if you just clarified your answer to say something instead of letting people take a wil guess... Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 20:42
  • 2
    There is no such entity called "management" that imposes rules on how we would be voting or providing feedback. In fact, it is inaccurate to day that the community discourages feedback completely, what we are indeed against is (1) explaining why you downvoted, rather than focusing on the inherent reasons for doing that; and (2) demanding or pushing people to provide feedback.
    – E_net4
    Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 20:59
  • 4
    The whole point of anonymous voting is so that you don't have to justify yourself to anyone. Once you de-anonymize yourself and justify yourself, you then invite people to discuss the validity of your justification. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too; you don't get to provide a justification without letting others comment on the validity of that justification. If you want to downvote what you think are homework questions, fine. But if you say that this is what you're doing, it is perfectly valid for people to dislike it. Publicly. Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 21:07
  • 4
    There is no censorship. The definition of that word does not describe, in part or totality, the situation here on stack overflow. You are mistaken. Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 21:31
  • 4
    @thb: "However, I feel the threat. Therefore, I censor myself." If you have invented a boogieman, and then censored yourself to avoid invoking the wrath of this boogieman... how exactly is that the fault of people who actually exist? Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 21:33
  • 6
    @thb So you're not interested in either justifying your assertion that you're not allowed to post the comments you want, nor in providing an example detailed enough to actually concretely discuss. Why post this at all then, given that you weren't interested in either providing or receiving feedback?
    – Servy
    Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 21:42
  • 3
    The biggest problem is the people who fell this position stated by Shog9 is wrong are not understanding the message. In short, when you comment to explain the downvote you cause the post author to focus on your downvote. When you comment to explain the problem that caused you to downvote, the post author to respond to your explanation of the problem. The latter is far more constructive. Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 22:35
  • 1
    @thb: "If you said, "You are not supposed to downvote for such reasons," you might be right, but you would also be making my point, wouldn't you?" Making what point, exactly? That voting is meant to be used responsibly, and therefore that it is possible to vote, up or down, for invalid reasons? That's not something which was a subject of debate; we know people can and do cast votes for the wrong reasons. Whether pity upvotes, competitive downvotes, or whatever, it happens. So what exactly have you proven? Commented Mar 14, 2019 at 22:46
  • 1
    For the record, one can and should flag harassing comments as rude/abusive. The way I see it though, there are no comments deserving that flag here.
    – E_net4
    Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 8:29
  • 1
    No one is against you providing useful actionable feedback. The feedback everyone wants is one that improves the post, so it meets our quality standards. Commenting or referencing your voting doesn't serve to that goal, but distracts from the feedback on how to improve the post, so we don't do it.
    – Braiam
    Commented Mar 15, 2019 at 14:49
-62

Downvotes carry an implication that not only is something unhelpful, but that it is irretrievably so. A comment to the effect of "I downvoted it, here's how it could be fixed," suggests perhaps the downvote was hasty.

Constructive comments that might salvage the answer can precede a downvote. If after a reasonable time the problem remains, it is only then the downvote matches the answer 's most likely potential.

That's not to say there are not just plain bad answers.

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  • 50
    I've never seen the idea before that downvotes should only be used on irreparably bad answers; why do you think this? The fact that they can be retracted after a post is edited seems to contradict this interpretation.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Feb 1, 2015 at 23:13
  • @MarkAmery I did not say that. I said a down vote implies something is unsalvageable. For example my opinion cannot be tweaked or corrected to match yours. Your comment isn't about a typo or an error regarding a small fraction of several facts. Your comment plus my answer doesn't create a complete answer. It's downvoted because it is not just a matter of editing. Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 2:13
  • @JoshCaswell Prefacing a comment with "-1" removes inhibition. Without it, what follows is more likely to be flagged. The "-1" is spackling. It follows the form one would use to provide a reasoned explanation of the downvote, but it just repeats the message of the downvote. We have never met and "-1 This is nonsense," is just Usenet's "<plonk> Welcome to my killfile" and Twitter's "@benrudgers Unfollowed!!!" manifested on StackExchange. Bare of the "-1" the content following would be more obviously out of bounds and rationalizations for posting it would be harder. Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 15:01
  • 21
    Something that is irrecoverably unhelpful should be deleted. Something that's unhelpful, whether salvageable or not, should be downvoted.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 15:16
  • 2
    @Servy On StackOverflow, the ideal action on a salvageable answer is editing it to make it worthy of an upvote or at least to make the internet better. The software makes it practical for people to do this instead of downvoting or as well as casting an up or down vote. Downvotes are multivalent and among their positive valences are that casting a downvote often proxies a worse behavior, e.g. an "You're an idiot" comment. As these comments show, the -1 becomes a license to make comments that serve no constructive purpose. And one -1 This is nonsense. became two with escalating vehemence. Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 15:30
  • 11
    Edits are there to improve the presentation of an authors content, not to change their content. If an answer is unhelpful because it just has bad spelling/grammar, sure, you can edit it instead of downvoting it. If it's just wrong, incomplete, doesn't use an appropriate approach, misunderstands the questions, etc. then it is only the author that can fix those problems. Yes, downvotes can cause the author to post unconstructive comments; it can also cause them to realize their mistake and fix the post, but the primary goal of DVs is so other readers know that the content is not helpful.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 15:34
  • @Servy There is a social friction to editing answers for content and mores around it, but the end of the road for answers is community wiki. That's by design above my paygrade. The unhelpfulness of an answer is in theory always transitory, comments intended to improve the answer acknowledge this. Sure votes can be changed if the content is edited but requires the same commitment as downvoting after comments weren't implemented. To be clear downvotes can proxy bad behavior by the voter. For a community, this is far more valuable than deducting internet points. Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 15:49
  • 13
    Again, the role of downvotes is not to deduct points. The goal is to send a signal to all future readers that the post is of low quality and should not be used. The points are merely there to incentivize the author to do something about it, but if they don't, the vote has still accomplished its goal of sending a signal to everyone else that sees the answer. And as to editing answers, there aren't just social frictions to editing the content of someone else's answer, there are also site rules about it; it goes beyond just convention.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 15:55
  • @Servy Not suggesting that there isn't algorithmic enforcement of useful heuristics, yet: If you see something that needs improvement, click edit! stackoverflow.com/help/editing -- I am also not suggesting that posting a better answer should be discouraged. The primary purpose of downvotes is gamification. Content rising or falling makes using the site more fun. Voting privileges do so as well. But all that is in service of the ultimate fun of a better internet. That's what Spolsky and Atwood were shooting for. Everything else is an implementation detail. Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 16:16
  • 8
    Downvotes almost certainly make the site less fun for everyone involved. It does however greatly improve the quality of the content on the site, and the ability of readers to determine the quality of a given post. This is why sites that have a similar gratification model to SE but that aren't fundamentally there to create quality content tend to have only an upvote option, not a downvote (think, for example, Reddit or Facebook). Downvotes are very cleraly not there for the gameification.
    – Servy
    Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 16:23
  • Let us continue this discussion in chat. Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 16:31
  • 6
    I was just following the guidance in your answer: your post is irretrievably wrong, so I downvoted it.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 19:33
  • 1
    @JoshCaswell If it guided the action, as charitable reading suggests, then my answer wasn't wrong. Of course, neither of us believes that is what the comment means. Proposing that "I asked for it" is a standard rationalization. Sans -1 the tone is more civil but the content remains solely for bullying. I'd be a hypocrite to claim I'd never done such a thing. Ever so poorly? I doubt it. With me it's probably an innate character flaw expressed as an internet talent. My tip: <plonk>ing isn't even Kramer dominating the dojo because the <plonk>er lacks the will to follow through. Good luck. Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 22:00
  • I would say that some googling would save from downvoting questions as sometimes they are just dumb. Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 22:44
  • 1
    How many of you go back through your previously downvoted questions/answers and check for edits? How far back in your voting history do you go? Is there some way to receive notification when the target of your vote is changed?
    – beaker
    Commented Feb 5, 2015 at 1:31

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