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Recently I see more complaints of "elitism" bubbling up. Sometimes expressly called so, sometimes expressing the same thing in many more words. Mostly from new(-ish) users whose question has just been Mjölnir'd as duplicate of another question within a minute of them posting it.

Understandably they have an averse reaction to seeing their sweat and blood into which they may have probably invested many minutes of their lives being closed and/or downvoted. However, oftentimes they're not even trying to take in what we're trying to tell them; that their question already has a great answer elsewhere if they'd just try to apply it correctly, that maybe it doesn't make sense in the first place or whatever else. Mjölnir-wielders (or many commenters for that matter) are being seen as "elitist" and condescending instead. They're not trusted to actually know the answer, but instead to just be "power hungry". Pointing to a duplicate is often not being accepted as an answer, especially if delivered via mythical Norse pounding devices.

Is there actually anything wrong with that? We should be conscious about it, but do we need to do something about it? Any opinions about this latest buzzword going 'round?


To clarify: I'm asking for a little bit of introspection here. Are we turning into an elitist club? I'm sure all high-rep users have steadily increased their prowess and are now hammering a lot more than a few years ago. Is this because crap has increased (I'm sure the answer here is at least partially yes). Or is it because we have actually turned into elitists and are not accepting the low hanging fruit anymore? And if so, is there something wrong with that?

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    We are being elitists only by actually rejecting low quality/off-topic content. How dare we?
    – Oded StaffMod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:27
  • 72
    What's wrong with having a question marked as a duplicate? It helps OP by pointing them to an answer they obviously couldn't find on their own, and helps SO by having multiple wordings of a question pointing to one good answer, making it easier to find. Maybe we should all just be more cheerful about marking duplicates so it doesn't feel like a bad thing. "We found you an answer, hurray! :D"
    – Michelle
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 12:34
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    @Michelle More friendly unicorns in the close-reason boxes! :D
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 12:37
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    I've been on SO for about 2 years. I don't have many points. Most of my questions have already been answered or related questions/answers help me obtain my solution. At first I was frustrated with the down votes because sometimes I could spend upward of 30 minutes crafting a question. Then I realized the points don't matter and having a well organized site with solutions to my problems is more important than "points". I don't think of it as elitism anymore, just people that care (given those people aren't asshats about it). Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 12:51
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    The guy is an "aerospace engineer". The notion that him expecting to create a well-designed program is just as absurd as expecting a programmer to build a well-designed airplane is just completely lost on him. Not much point in taking any value judgement from somebody like that serious, he has just no idea what we do. This is not uncommon. Did that sound elitist enough? Thanks for the compliment :) Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 13:16
  • 8
    @jwg It's "can we have a [discussion] about the negative feedback we've been getting from some users and whether we should be doing something about it."
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 14:40
  • 13
    Reading through the posts here on Meta about how we're overrun with help vampires and reputation whores makes StackOverflow seem a lot more elitist than it actually is. In practice, if you ask a basic easy to read and easy to answer question, you're a lot more likely to be rewarded for it than you are to be punished. Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 19:26
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    Mjölnir'd. Brilliant. +1.
    – link
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 8:19
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    Only the elite - those who can write a clear question which clearly explains the problem and what they've tried - are welcome here! How dare we exclude questions which betray no effort, no willingness to stop and think for a moment about what they want, read the error message or search for similar questions?
    – user146043
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 8:42
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    Isn't using the term Mjölnir'd a sign of elitism?
    – paulkayuk
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 8:45
  • 14
    The rules can be read on a signpost before you enter the town. The rules are accepted by the community of the town and are crafted carefully to help achieving their goals and living together without big problems. They welcome you, and the only thing they ask is you read and abide the rules. If you decide to enter the town, you can read the rules or not, abide them or not, but from then on every consequence you face is caused by your decisions, and not the community or the rules. This is what people should understand.
    – kapa
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 9:31
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    @deceze That is normal. Every community that works well will be rushed by people who are only interested in enjoying the advantages, but not really in abiding the rules. They do not understand that it was the rules that helped achieving the advantages. They criticize simply because they do not get what they want. You need gates or some kind of mechanism that lets you protect your community, because these people would ruin it in the long term. But this is also for them. When they realize the motives and reasoning behind the rules, there will still be a place they can join and enjoy...
    – kapa
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 9:44
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    On a more generic level, elitism (valuing people by their knowledge/talent) is a good thing. The "but" is that it has to be done as a pure meritocracy. However, once the "elite" start abusing their position, and the power that comes with it, to keep their status, rather than being allowed to fail, you end up with nepotism, stagnation, etc. (See banking, politics and a whole lot more). With great moderator power comes great responsibility. Depending on your worldview, the definition of "elitism" is either the former, which is an ideal (to me, at least) or the latter, which is not.
    – Jezcentral
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 10:13
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    I was rejected from a Master's program in rocket science at Harvard just because I know nothing about physics and chemistry. Those elitist pigs.
    – Pekka
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 15:36
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    I've been on Stack Overflow for two months, and I have realized that the questions I asked in my first week on this site were terribly written with inadequate information. It might make you uncomfortable to be downvoted but that's what growth is all about. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 16:26

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I don’t think Stack Overflow is elitist because the network allows anyone to join, post a question, edit, comment & even answer a question. So where does the “elitism” claim come from? You ask me it comes from a lack of common & basic human humility on the part of anyone saying this place is “elitist.”

For example, people who constantly grovel in questions saying, “Hey guys! I like this place! I am a noob, so please be nice! :-).” People like that will always see anyone/everyone as elitist. You know why? I have been doing tech work professionally for 20+ years and have been into computers for about 30 years. And whenever someone prefaces a question with that kind of “blow softening” B.S., they have no idea what they are talking about. Meaning, they usually do not have a question they want answered, but rather they want someone else to do the work for them.

I mean, let’s take this out of the tech context: If I have a broken car & I go into a repair shop yammering incessantly and apologizing about not being a mechanic, what does that add up to? I would sound like an idiot. In contrast if I come to a mechanic & clearly state, “Look, the car is not working. It doesn’t do this, that or the other. I think it’s this, but would like to know what you think?” I will come off as more sane, rational, reasonable & humble.

The reality is many of the posters—and non-posters—who claim this place is elitist really has no clue. You want to know what elitist is? Pretty much all off the bulletin boards out there that require membership—even if it’s free—just to read content, let alone participate. I remember one great Macintosh board from back in the late 1990s that turned to crap & finally disappeared when the site owner got sick of it. You know what the posters of that site did? They brilliantly created a “secret” member’s only BBS that only a select few had access to. And why? And for what reason?

Claims about any community as open as the Stack Exchange sites being elitist mix up “elitism” with “quality.” Is it elitist to correct spelling or formatting? Or perhaps ask for code samples when someone posts as “Hey, this thing doesn’t work, what should I do?” question? Hell no. This place is a volunteer effort. All that is asked for is a simple, basic level of human participation. And if it alienates the vast majority of mouth-breathers who can’t even do basic Google searches, great.

This place is not about elitism. It’s about quality. Don’t like it? Start some board somewhere else & see how easy and “egalitarian” you can be.

EDIT: Original poster added this:

I'm asking for a little bit of introspection here. Are we turning into an elitist club?

No, Stack Overflow is not turning into an elitist club. That is what happens in other communities where controls & heuristic logic is not deployed at all. Where people run rampant posting, trolls take root & fiefdoms gain hold. The benefit of Stack Overflow is the controls in place are quite difficult to game at best, and the punishment for gaming the system is exclusion. Meaning all of the wretched behavior that destroys other online communities is public, well monitored & well patrolled.

I will say that sometimes the smaller satellite sites do seem quite cliquish. And I find that off-putting. But unclear what the solution to a small community with limited controls is in a case like that.

The benefit Stack Overflow has is that the amount of users is so high that any claim of elitism is really baseless. And while I do not have a solid view of turnover, my guess is the majority of people who come here come & go in bursts. Some people take root, but are quickly checked by others… And so on… And so on…

I’ve seen sites & communities grow, evolve & devolve over time. I believe that while Stack Overflow has flaws, nothing is perfect and this is tons better than other sites that shall go nameless.

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    Although I agree with this, your mechanic analogy is a little off. The people posting on Stack Overflow are generally employed as software developers (or at least, studying to become them); a better analogy would be if one mechanic complained about being a noob to another mechanic. Commented Jul 11, 2014 at 17:19
  • That's an even better analogy. And of course, if SO were really elitist, none of those new programmers would be allowed to post, regardless of their ability to form complete sentences and describe their problems in detail. Commented Jul 11, 2014 at 17:25
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    An old friend worked as a mechanic for many years; we used to commiserate over the folks getting hired in both professions who... well, pretty much did what you describe.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jul 11, 2014 at 17:29
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    To play devil's advocate here: I think the elitism claim comes from the perception that SO is "supposed to be" a free-for-all Q&A "forum", yet "the elite", those with the power to do so, are "shutting out" noobs left and right "on a whim". (Note the number of quotes used in that sentence.)
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2014 at 18:22
  • Having said that, I like this answer and will probably accept it. :)
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 11, 2014 at 18:23
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    @JakeGould Just on the matter of democracy: it's a form of government where everyone participates equally. Nothing against what you said but the label democracy and SO don't go together very well. If you look at the system here, it is everything but equal participation. Commented Jul 21, 2014 at 20:28
  • @Trilarion: It's slightly more a meritocracy, but only slightly. Frankly, rep whoring is easy. Anyone willing to pander to the community can get privileges pretty quickly.
    – cHao
    Commented Jul 27, 2014 at 6:18
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    @cHao And that means that this here cannot be a democracy. In a democracy you don't have to earn your privileges - you just have them. On the other hand it's not true that everyone can earn every privilege here quickly. What percentage of user base is above 100 rep, 1k rep or 10k rep? I don't mind actually, just want to get the terms right. Commented Jul 27, 2014 at 8:35
  • "Start some board somewhere else & see how easy and “egalitarian” you can be." Straw man. You can't compete with a network effect even if your ideas are better if people are entrenched with this kind of thinking; and if people like you go around backing it up. You should be championing the idea of everyone making their own StackOverflow and it being frictionless to switch and/or federate, instead of throwing support behind a system that won't honor a feature request to save their life. They have power because you give it to them, and if they cared they'd implement feature requests. Commented Oct 7, 2014 at 16:03
473

A lot of people confuse "I'm new to a technology" with "I don't know how to ask a good question". It's entirely possible to ask a good question with a technology which you happen to be a beginner in, but when a beginner asks a bad question they assume that downvotes are due to the difficulty level of the question rather than its quality.

I have no problem with beginners asking questions - although in many cases, the OP would be better off reading a good book and learning all kinds of things in one go, rather than asking one question at a time. I do have a problem with badly-written, lazy questions showing no sign of research or making any attempt to follow the pretty-well-advertised guidelines for what's expected on Stack Overflow.

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    I'd have to agree with this, as a beginner. There's a suprising volume of "I'm writing an app to make millions of euro, I have no programming knowledge, please write me code" and a lot of "I copied and pasted this code and it doesn't work" with no errors or any information. It's a difference between not being able to get an answer and not bothering to read the basics at all.
    – RossC
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:35
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    @reading a book. This is another part - the old "give a good book" and "share XY information" were -to me- the main reason I ever joined this site. There the better programmers actively share their knowledge. Right now you get an answer, and that's it. Asking for verification on answers means questions get closed for duplicate question (been there)... This is something I really wish would be taken into consideration once again - as I think moderated "recommendation" topics by experts are the best resource to be found. Greatly weighing up against the so called negative points.
    – paul23
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:47
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    Not directly on stackoverflow - I'm actually too afraid to post them. But on programmers I had programmers.stackexchange.com/questions/226233/… that question closed for duplicate. Where I (I think) cleanly showed that I knew those "duplicates" but I thought they were answers that collided with each other (but in the end they didn't which was the answer to my question). It was closed for being a duplicate with one of the questions I linked.
    – paul23
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 11:05
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    It gives the idea that a the question was "closed" without thinking/reading the question (so lack of interest and just closing).
    – paul23
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 11:11
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    @paul23 While that may certainly be happening sometimes (nobody ain't perfect), oftentimes experienced users recognise a question as fitting a certain pattern much better than the OP does. We've seen it all at least a gazillion times already. Yes, really, we did. And we really do not want to answer the same question yet again, or allow someone less experienced to answer it badly adding more bad content to SO; so we close as duplicate. Maybe sometimes there's a false positive in there; but then the onus should be on the OP to prove that irrefutably. Still elitist?
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 11:15
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    downvotes are due to the difficulty level of the question - do you mean lack of difficulty, ie the OP believes they are being down voted because it's beneath SO ? I've seen a number of questions where I wish RTFM was a close option. Questions like "how do I get XML attribute in php" aren't opinion based and technically not too vague, but any question where the answer can be (fairly easily) found reading one of the top 3 results when googling the question's subject line is probably going to be an indicator that the OP needs to read a book first.
    – Anthony
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 11:25
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    @Anthony: Yes, RTFM questions are possibly an exception to this... some people genuinely believe that "ask questions first, consult documentation later" is a legitimate way of behaving.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 11:40
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    I think Jon Skeet is an upvote magnet. :) But seriously, I agree with his answer. Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 12:32
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    @deceze: "the onus should be on the OP" Confirmed elitist.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 14:45
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    @BoltClock My pointer involuntarily clicked the up vote button. Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 14:56
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    @RossC: I'd go even further and say your examples aren't just of insufficient effort, they're examples of not being a programmer and asking questions about something that is not a programming problem :-) Learning to program isn't just research (although it involves it), and asking someone to do your programming for you isn't a programming problem (although if you hired someone to do it, the person you'd hire is a programmer). Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 11:13
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    @JustAnotherStackOverflowUser: I haven't seen much of that myself - certainly not nearly as often as I've seen people who haven't just "made a mistake" but have instead put no effort whatsoever into asking a good question. That in itself is disrespectful - and far more common - in my view.
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Jul 5, 2014 at 18:35
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    Sometimes it's pretty hard for a beginner to describe their problem in words that would yield results in any search engine... I'm sometimes having trouble with that.
    – haansn08
    Commented Jul 5, 2014 at 19:07
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    @haansn08: Yes, but there are plenty of times when the exact words in the question (even just the title) give an answer... and plenty of other times where people leave out obviously important information, because they didn't bother reading any of the guidance about how to ask a good question. It's not like it's not available...
    – Jon Skeet
    Commented Jul 5, 2014 at 19:18
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    Now, if only "How to Ask Good Questions" was a required course for all students... Or even a course at all. Sadly, college classes most often do not teach students how to be good students, instead simply asking for x assignment on y date with little specification on how that is accomplished other than "don't cheat." While I agree that neither SO's users nor its rules are elitist and many new users do post terrible questions, from those "newbie" users' perspective, this is all a trial by fire as far as asking questions goes. Can you really blame them for not having been taught well?
    – Jasper
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 11:42
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Stack Overflow is — and always has been — elitist. And there is nothing wrong with that. The expressed purpose says:

Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers

The phrase "professional and enthusiast" does not mean any programmer. It means having something more, something better, than a lazy novice. The whole point of downvotes, closevotes, reputation and badges is that some questions and some contributors are being considered better than others, and are more welcome than others.

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    +1 (on each separate sentence, at that). See also the downvotes on the Look! I'm a Rookie and proud of it! badge request.
    – Jongware
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 19:09
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    Well, professional unfortunately does not suppose any experience nor any wish to improve... maybe we should just keep the enthusiast part ? Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 8:48
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    Having a meritocracy and being elitist is not the same thing. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 8:51
  • @Jongware But they already DID add a "here's a reward for a terrible question" badge. They called it tumbleweed.
    – ivarni
    Commented Jul 5, 2014 at 9:07
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    @MatthiasBraun the Wikipedia page for Elitist says otherwise.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Jul 5, 2014 at 9:11
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    I would add that enthusiast should not necessarily exclude novices. I could be a classical music enthusiast, and yet only just beginning to write my own music. At that stage, I might still jump in with 'silly' questions like 'Why do some of the dots have lines over them?', having missed it in my copy of Teach Yourself Writing Music. I do sometimes get nervous before posting a new question on SO, for fear that I've just forgotten something simple, or skipped over a paragraph from Coding 101 like a bad schoolkid.
    – decvalts
    Commented Jul 5, 2014 at 20:04
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    @decvalts That is a good thing. It seems to help you improve, forces you to think. Without that you would just ask all the questions you could think of, and never improve. Novices are more than welcome here, IF they want to improve and are conscious about it. If you need a teacher, because you are not a self-learner type, this place will only be a nuisance to you.
    – kapa
    Commented Jul 6, 2014 at 7:58
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    SO is, and always has been, elitist. -> That is so sadly wrong seeing many crap questions and answers, not only tolerated, but defended with Zeus' aegis shield. Commented Jul 6, 2014 at 8:23
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    Actually I think that badges and reputation are only important up to a certain point. I answer a question if it is interesting to me, I don't only answer questions by high rep users (who don't have questions anyway). My conclusion is that above a certain reputation level everyone is more or less equally welcome. Commented Jul 21, 2014 at 20:35
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    One problem is the multiple meanings 'elitist' seems to have. I like it defined as: 'Someone who thinks that in GENERAL the more experienced/knowledgeable/elite have opinions of more value than the less experienced\knowledgeable\layman.' (based on wikipedia) and not the many different definitions I can find on the web that say essentially the same, but seem to add a very negative connotation like "being or characteristic of a person who has an offensive air of superiority and tends to ignore or disdain anyone regarded as inferior" (merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/elitist). Commented Jan 5, 2016 at 16:47
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    Yes, it is. My first question got duplicate'd and downvoted to hell, and I eventually had to delete it, because I was getting another downvote every week or so. Many people, new to the site and not understanding how it works yet, are downvoted to hell and never come back, because they assume this is all there is. Now that I understand how the community works, I am doing fine, but a lot of people don't have the patience to go through the 'newbie' phase: The phase where people downvote everything you write, because the site's high standards are oppressive to people who are new to the site.
    – Majora320
    Commented Feb 27, 2016 at 22:01
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I joined Stack Overflow when I was a student and completely new to programming. I've been on the site now for around three years, and I've not experienced any elements of elitism in that time.

In this time I have asked 42 questions and out of those only 1 received downvotes and was closed (and rightly so).

All you really need to do is search before you ask and practise rubber duck debugging, and you'll never ask a question that deserves downvoting.

I did make a point, as I do with all online communities, to read and absorb the rules before posting anything, but that only really takes minimal effort to do and that's all that is all I expect of newcomers. It's not elitist to expect people to make an effort to understand the rules.

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    I joined stackoverflow 5 years ago when I was a student, and I've asked 161 questions, and I have definitely seen people act like stuck up assholes. I agree that sometimes someone's feelings can be hurt because they asked a lazy question and it got bad feedback, but some users, like in any community, can't pass up an opportunity to be rude, snide, or snarky. Sometimes a user can downvote with a good reason and still affect an elitist attitude that shames the person and make them feel unwelcome. We don't have to be nice, but we can have manners.
    – Anthony
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 12:55
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    @Anthony This is, after all, the internet.
    – Seth
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 14:57
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    @Anthony If they possess the knowledge I seek, then I want to learn from them. Why does it matter whether they are nice or rude or whatever? This is a huge misunderstanding...
    – kapa
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 8:45
  • +1, really interesting link to the rubber duck story too (thanks Jeff)
    – Ian Clark
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 8:58
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    Rubber duck debugging is great, explaining the problem it words that someone other than you could understand often helps break down the problem in your head. Many times I've typed out questions for StackOverflow this discarded them as I realise the issue wasn't as baffling as I'd first thought.
    – Amicable
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 9:07
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    @kapa: can you imagine the tongue-in-cheek response I want to make to your comment? Not because it's deserved, but because it would illustrate that being nice or rude or whatever does matter, and some levels of rudeness will rightly be deleted by mods because they obstruct a productive atmosphere. Unfortunately, by getting flagged and deleted, my hypothetical response would cease making that point to future readers ;-) If it made no difference to the reader whether people were nice or rude, commenters wouldn't ever go out of their way to be rude or snarky. But they do, so it matters. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 11:20
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    @SteveJessop It matters ONLY because people take it personally. But from a logical point of view, if I go somewhere to learn things from a person he is a great expert at, so my goal is to gain knowledge that is not easy to find, will I care whether he is rude to me or not? Of course not. I'm not saying experts should be rude!! They will decide whether they think it helps or not. Even if they cannot make that decision responsibly, they still have the knowledge that I need. I don't need their nice words, it's no real value. I need their knowledge.
    – kapa
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 11:30
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    @kapa: yeah, so the question is whether SO wants to support a system where to extract that knowledge from the rude people, you need to pay the price of being made to feel bad (which perhaps some people can control/ignore to a greater or less extent, but for almost anyone some abusive comment will eventually strike home). Basically, do we need the experts who need to be paid for their knowledge by being allowed to be rude, or should we shut that down and let the ones willing to be civil handle the newbies? I say we have enough questioners and enough experts to be picky about both groups :-) Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 11:46
  • @SteveJessop I haven't said that. SO needs to require a certain level of civility/politeness, otherwise it would never work. People are not clever enough and are too selfish to realize that they are here for knowledge. Even if they are given the highest and most secret knowledge for free, they would turn away if it is accompanied by rude words. Experts who are good teachers know this and use niceness/rudeness consciously. Selfish experts sometimes become assholes on the other hand. Still, they have the knowledge that a clever learner will seek to learn from them anyways.
    – kapa
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 11:56
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    The other important thing here is: "what is rudeness?". It's tightly coupled with culture, and this is a global website. Impossible to accommodate every culture. Someone will always have their feelings hurt, no matter what. People should just stop whining when they get their share of knowledge from experts for free. If you want an example of an extremely different culture in this regard, go to pt.stackoverflow.com -- you'll see extremely long answers (with useless, courteous preambles and conclusions that add nothing) and you'll rarely, if ever, see people telling that others are wrong.
    – Bruno Reis
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:00
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    (even if they are just plain wrong)
    – Bruno Reis
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:03
  • "making yourself feel big and the questioner feel small, isn't an appropriate line of instruction to take with a stranger you only see once" --> I've seen cultures in which this is the exact most appropriate line of action, this is what is culturally expected! Anyway, an "SO culture" is a good thing, I believe, but, again, very hard to establish in general. Easy for the heavy users, but those same heavy users (most of them, probably) already know what is the expected behavior. The issue still persists with new / relatively new users.
    – Bruno Reis
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:20
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    @BrunoReis: "Easy for the heavy users, but those same heavy users (most of them, probably) already know what is the expected behavior" -- right, to some extent the question "what is rudeness" is the same as the question "what expected behaviour do the heavy users converge on, and the mods slap wrists when it's violated". Some people say we're too mean to newbies, other people say we should be mean to them in some ways but not others. It's a negotiation over the position of the line, not a matter of trying to objectively define "rude" or "mean". "Inappropriate" means I don't think it works. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:22
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    A lot of this seems to boil down to how to deal with rude people and those assholes that we inevitably cross paths with, which is basically a lesson learned through life.
    – Amicable
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 13:19
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    @Amicable: That explains why virtually every one of us sucks at dealing with assholes - we don't have any experience with this thing you call life ;)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jul 6, 2014 at 10:43
38

As a newer (less than a year and low rep) user to SO that has read quite a few of these discussions in the last couple days, let me give my perspective:

SO is a great place to come with questions for programming. Are the criteria for asking questions and getting answers a little strict? Yes. Do they have good reason to be? Also yes.

Strict guidelines in an environment like this is not a bad thing. It's simply a way to help the OP get their answers. If your question and problem are clearly defined, may pose a problem for users down the road, and has a bit of code added to demonstrate your issue, then it's far more likely to get answered, let alone an answer that actually helps with the issue.

I started programming just over a year ago. I graduated college a networker (please don't hate me!) and came to what my teachers called "the dark side of the computer force." While I embraced this new learning challenge openly, I was also thrown to the sharks so to speak, as my coworkers believe in the strategy of "look it up and you'll learn it." It was very frustrating while I struggled to grasp JavaScript, HTML, Java, and VB.

After several simple fix problems, one problem lead me to SO. I came here and couldn't find the answer to my question, but instead found an easy way to ask my own. After reading the help page, I decided to leave the tab up and continue searching, just in case. A couple hours of that saw me creating my first question. It was an easy one, but I was thoroughly lost, so it was needed.

I didn't get downvoted to oblivion and that first question is still open. It was an easy question, but also not utter junk in terms of English and formatting. I've since asked several questions on the site and, while some have no upvotes and a couple are unanswered, I have been pleased with the fruit of my hard research efforts before attempting a question.

So, in my opinion, SO is perfectly fine. It's living up to it's expectations, as laid out in the help pages. People that are too touchy or sensitive about how things work around here... Well, they probably either didn't bother with the help pages or they just want everything handed to them and need to go elsewhere. Rookie programmers (like myself) who take the time to truly attempt to research and understand their problem before seeking expert advice and assistance are rewarded for such.

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    I actually just went back and looked at my first question, more than just the title, and about kicked myself for how simple it was. But after a full workday of trying to get it to work, I came to SO and the rest is history!
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 20:06
31

Foreword: upon reflection my answer seems somewhat... elitist. I don't mean it to be, it's observational. Just hear me out, hopefully some of what I say will get someone else thinking, hopefully it promotes discussion.

In some ways the behaviour of a new user follows a pattern:

  • they are too lazy (or lacking in smart stuff) to research their problem so they write a bad question
  • when the question is downvoted they are too lazy (or lacking in smart stuff) to research why they may have been downvoted

So they fail twice because of a lack of that "smart stuff". As a result they lash out with accusations of elitism because it's the only response they can think of.

I blame a newer generation of programmers who have access to levels of information never dreamed of when older members were learning the trade. They've got access to so much information that they graze and wander like cattle, never settling in to learn any subject in depth.

I also blame Google for feeding them instant answers. Have a problem and don't know the answer? Just query it in Google! Is Google giving you too much information and hurting your poor little brain? Then just query Stack Overflow, it's even smarter than Google!

Lastly I blame the hacker mentality, Stuart Brand and Steve Wozniak for promoting the concept that "Information wants to be free". I mean c'mon now - I sweated bullets and did some very late nights for some of the information I've learned!

What can we do to fix this?

I think we can do very little. It might sound cliche, but people have to want to be helped, they have to want to improve, and very few new users want either of those. They just want that instant information, and they want it now! kthxbye!

Above all we have to remember that not everyone who comes into the site is going to be a valuable contributor. Nobody likes elitism, but we do have the right to demand a certain calibre of participation in this knowledge resource that we're aggregating.

We can automatically insert a pre-emptive explanatory comment when they're new and they get a few downvotes, but we can't make them read it and understand it, and we can't make them read the help centre.

Like Bart Simpson with the electrified cookie jar, we just need to keep "reminding" them of the house rules when they come in.

Follow up

This has been good, it's produced some discussion. Let me cherry-pick a quote from the comments:

Stackoverflow is supposed to be an open supportive community.

That is absolutely correct. But notice that it doesn't say "Stack Overflow is a support forum with endless help for people who need to be spoon fed."

Let's be brutally honest here: Stack Overflow is not an endless free resource where you can turn up and get expert help for any dumb question you care to throw at it. The SOFU sites were started with the aim of achieving a certain goal, there is a plan. Giving up on standards and giving in to the demands of a vocal minority to turn this into an open ended support forum is not going to achieve that goal. Therefore a certain level of elitism is required, it helps to produce quality and keep the signal-noise ratio low (which is one of the key differentiators for this site).

The rules exist for a good reason I think and instead of down/close voting bad questions which clearly does not work people should teach them how to write a good question.

It's not our job to teach you how to write a good question. It's your job to learn how to ask a good question that has all the relevant information. Jon Skeet wrote an excellent article on how to ask a good question, and it's linked to from the help centre (as well as being quoted many times over as the definitive source). You could argue that Stack Overflow done everything possible for new users, short of reading their minds and generating the questions for them.

At some point you have to give up and realise that it isn't the rules, it isn't the environment, some people just don't get it.

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    I think with questions closed as duplicates this is further compounded because while the duplicate (assuming it is a proper dupe) should contain the answer to the users question it often isn't "spoon fed", that is they still need to figure out how to apply it (as opposed to direct answers to their question).
    – Jack
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 13:40
  • 19
    "... very few new users want either of those. They just want that instant information, and they want it now! kthxbye!" - In my opinion I think we should be a bit elitist to these types of askers. I see it as not wanting to pollute the industry with those too lazy to put forth the effort to produce quality results. If someone just wants a quick answer to get a grade on their homework but doesn't want to learn the material, I don't want them as a coworker. If wanting potential coworkers to be competent is elitist, then I want to be elitist.
    – bheklilr
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 14:34
  • 1
    Very elitist indeed. If a generation of programmers lacks the brains to use stackoverflow it is obviously the new programmers's fault, not stackoverflow's. After all, the system worked 20 years ago, so there cannot be anything wrong with it now. WTF?
    – nwp
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 15:10
  • 2
    @nwp Can't really tell whether you're being sarcastic or not. Can you elaborate on how "the system worked 20 years ago"?
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 15:28
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    @nwp And if you refuse to put any sort of guidelines on what is to be expected of questions asked on the site, you will teach the "dumb people" that if they put forth no more effort than asking us their question, they will get an answer and are entitled to said answer. There has to be some give and take. I'm not a smart programmer, I'm a new programmer, and I'm learning through following the model set here. If they don't want to read and follow the rules, there are other code sites to beg for code from without putting in the effort we desire they put in. SO is here to help, not to hold hands.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 18:09
  • 1
    @nwp What's happening here is like punishing a student for cheating on a test: You're telling people that if they study, do a bit of work, they'll do better than if they just peek and take the quick information from their neighbor. I would rather see people actually learn what will help with their problem than have someone take the answers that people here labored over, pop them in their code, and never understand why it worked or what was wrong the first time.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 18:13
  • @Kendra Same argument with slightly different wording. You say "we make the rules. You follow them or go away". I call that elitist and wrong. Stackoverflow is supposed to be an open supportive community. I say "If people do not read or obey the rules then the rules are bad, not the people". The rules exist for a good reason I think and instead of down/close voting bad questions which clearly does not work people should teach them how to write a good question. For people who don't want to waste their time with noobs I would suggest a "Hide everything from users below 1000 rep"-option.
    – nwp
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 18:24
  • @nwp I see where you're coming from. Let me explain my position a bit better. I don't feel it's bad questions. Yes, the questions are strict, but following them saves time. At the same time, I feel it's not necessarily the people, or at least not the new people. I think it's a matter of conditioning. That's why I bring up the cheating example. People are conditioned to want fast and instant anymore. Technology anymore is there to provide lighting-fast responses for everything. So, instead of wanting to look and do the work, people are inclined to want to just ask and receive. (cont.)
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 18:41
  • It's not a matter of they are lazy, or dumb, or anything like that. Well, maybe a little lazy, but that's what people have been conditioned for. I find myself getting that way every once in a while but I have enough old, laggy tech that I'm not really conditioned for anything like that. It's as slugster mentioned in this answer, people want results and they want them now. It's just the mentality anymore. We want to help them, but to help them we need to be able to understand what they want. To understand what they want, they have to understand what they want, which typically requires research.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 18:43
  • I realize now that I put "Bad questions" and "questions are strict" and I meant rules instead of questions in both of those. To help clarify further.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 19:25
  • @nwp Good discussion, I've added an update to my answer.
    – slugster
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 20:30
  • @Kendra You're showing the attributes that we wish we could see in all new users, you should consider writing an answer to this question as well.
    – slugster
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 20:31
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    @nwp I think it is only a small percentage, but unfortunately their actions produce a disproportionate amount of noise. The important thing to remember is that the sites are largely community driven, so the majority are dictating what happens and by definition it is a minority that are not fitting in. The reality is that we are not getting more elitist, we are simply getting more discerning about not allowing crap to be posted.
    – slugster
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 6:48
  • 1
    It seems there is a consensus that stackoverflow is elitist and should stay that way. This disappoints me. I just hope it will never become so bad that "helping a noob" becomes a bannable offense to "keep the site clean".
    – nwp
    Commented Jul 5, 2014 at 16:33
  • 2
    @nwp The only way I could help you with your disappointment is to tell you to read everything again and try to release your misunderstandings. Nobody said what you are talking about.
    – kapa
    Commented Jul 6, 2014 at 7:28
29

As a side-effect of SO being so vast nowadays, most beginner questions have already been answered many times. There is most often a sea of duplicates. Because of this, beginner questions are much more likely to get closed as duplicates than any other question. This is not because it's a beginner-level question, but rather because it has been asked one hundred times before.

In fact, a beginner who manages to ask a question which has not been asked before, is likely to have their question up-voted to the skies. It might not even be a well-formulated question: they might get up-votes just because they were the igniting spark that caused a lot of good answers to get posted.

There are certainly some elitist elements on SO, but no worse than on any other programming site. For some reason, arrogance is a rather common trait among programmers. At least that is my own arrogant opinion.

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    I don't understand why programmers get called "arrogant" all the time, usually for the sort of behaviour that is the equivalent of a seasoned construction worker laughing at 13-year old Johnny Bloggs randomly showing up at a building site, putting on his hard hat backwards, picking up a hammer and asking which wall he can help put up. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 11:56
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    @LightnessRacesinOrbit There are really arrogant programmers, but most of the time self-confidence is simply perceived as arrogance by those who lack it.
    – kapa
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:19
  • 3
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit Or maybe simply because they are arrogant.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:35
  • @Lundin: Being an arsehole (and, incidentally, wrong (but only in the first of those two posts)) is not the same as being arrogant. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:42
  • 4
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit Fair enough, though you can be both at once. Although you just now confidently stated that Mr Torvalds was wrong in a completely subjective matter, without providing any rationale why. That is pretty arrogant in my book. And then as reply, I write this comment where I arrogantly claim that you are arrogant.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 13:01
  • 3
    @Lundin: Um, Linus goes off on a baseless rant against C++, I say he's "wrong" and opt not to write a book on why that's so because this is comments and that is irrelevant, and I'm arrogant for it? Watch your tongue. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 14:31
19

This question has already been answered sufficiently, but I'd just like to throw in a relatively new user's perspective here.

Stack Overflow is in no way elitist: when people say that, it means that they feel left out, and they've been left out for good reason. If you put in no effort at all into a question (that is, you haven't gone to Google and typed the title of your question, you haven't logically gone through your program and looked for errors, and you haven't done even the most basic debugging), why do you expect that it will be well-received?

This is one of my favorite answers for new users: it outlines the amount of toil that should go into writing a question for SO. If you go to all of this effort and still haven't answered the question yourself, then you have created a worthwhile question.

If you can take the time to write a question, you can take the time to read the Help Center, take the Tour, and read through some good questions and answers. Once you do that, you should have a fairly good idea of how the site works and what kinds of behavior is expected here.

Sure, (from what I've read of earlier questions) Stack Overflow is a lot more strict now than it was a couple of years ago, but there is good reason for that: there are thousands of questions and answers every day that need to be controlled.

There is more of a rift between low-rep users and absurdly high-rep users than there was then, but the truth is that this doesn't matter. All of us who try to help have been called elitist at some point, regardless of reputation.

Compared to the entire user base of Stack Overflow, the number of us who actively participate in moderation on the site is quite low. In fact, the number of people eligible for moderator nomination (without a reputation cutoff) is, as of this posting, 714 716 726.

That's compared to the ~3.3 million users who comprise SO.

enter image description here

Really, that should speak for itself.

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    "why do you expect that it will be well-received?" To answer your rhetorical question, I'd imagine this is in large part because SO is one of very few q/a sites that actually has such expectations. Virtually anywhere else you can ask questions that bad and they do get answered.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 19:07
  • 1
    @Servy I agree with that, particularly because of this question's context: the "elitist" naming usually comes up when a user's question has been closed, meaning that they can no longer get an answer. To compound the insult of their question being questioned (how terrible), it has also been closed, meaning that they can't even get the answer to the question that they were too lazy to research in the first place.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 19:17
  • How do you know what's worthy of my time? Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 16:26
  • @CeesTimmerman I couldn't quite figure out how to word that without repeating "SO"; I don't mean to speak for others.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 16:43
  • I'm part of SO, and as you pointed out, mods are a minority. Do you speak for the majority of those answering questions? Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 17:08
  • @CeesTimmerman No, I don't: that's what I just said. I'm not trying to put words in other people's mouths.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 17:56
  • I'm asking because these questions are super popular yet the asker has not done anything he "should", according to your answer. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 18:17
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    @CeesTimmerman You're missing the point. None of this is required, nor is is common in day-to-day questions. People are allowed to vote as they please, and votes aren't always an indication of a good question as I've described it above. Sometimes, an interesting question gets plenty of upvotes for no other reason than because it's interesting. What I've described above is the best practice for asking good questions, and it is the best way to ensure that it is 1) noticed and 2) answered.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 18:23
  • Funny that you use the tiny number of people capable of moderation as an argument against elitism; isn't that kind of the definition of elite? Commented Oct 28, 2014 at 2:33
  • @MarkRansom Actually, what I'm arguing here is that moderation shouldn't be needed in most cases, and that's demonstrated by the fact that so few have taken the initiative toward moderation. There is no real elite because everyone who tries to help the site can easily be a part of that group of helpers.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Oct 28, 2014 at 2:38
14

Complaining about "elitism" in a group is just one step down from name calling with respect to a single individual, so let's not be too worried about people using that term.

Having said that, I don't see any problem in the existence of a group that happens to attract people who aspire to follow the best practices of their profession (call it an "elite" if you like) as long as the group is open to anyone who shares the values. In this case, those values boil down to - paraphrasing - asking well-researched and relevant questions and providing answers on the same wavelength.

In the nightlife, there would be bouncers at the door to help potential guests understand the values of the place and occasionally help them make the choice whether they want to enter or not.

In the SO version of the nightlife, everybody is allowed to enter the club, but as soon as they stand up and approach the dance floor, the seasoned guests can vote whether their contribution on the dance floor constitutes an overall improvement to the nightlife or not. If not, they are told to go back to their corner and think of a different way to do it. Explanation of the community decision is made using mostly canned language along the lines of:

  1. The moves you are making have been made a thousand times before. Change your choreography, then ask to be admitted to the floor again. You have five days.
  2. Your moves are too small and are only interesting to you.
  3. Your moves are too many and too big and we can't be bothered to decipher them.
  4. Your moves belong to a kind of dancing that we don't do here. We recommend that you take them somewhere else.
  5. Etc.

Anywhere in the nightlife this way of treating guests is bound to provoke a reaction every now and then - someone calling the place elitist is actually a pretty subdued reaction, all things considered.

The psychological treatment of newcomers on SO can be harsh and filled with mixed signals, since on the first visit to the home page, you are told that:

  • Anybody can ask a question
  • Anybody can answer
  • The best answers are voted up and rise to the top

This brief introduction goes to remarkable lengths to avoid mentioning anything about doing your research, looking for duplicates, formulating the question well and all the other things that are taken for granted by people with enough rep to cast close votes.

For the average high school (and college) kid, SO must be worse than the combined group of self-proclaimed cool kids they meet every day. At least that group does not pretend that you are welcome to join.

Solution? Sorry to say that I don't have one that solves everything, but criticism of "elitism" should easily be handled by sending the signal that SO aspires to collect questions and answers written according to the best practices of the software industry.

Newcomers clever enough to figure out that SO is now so big that it itself helps define the best practices of the industry and that it is hence a giant circular reference to a small elite's self-defined values, gain a special bonus. I suggest a silver-level badge.

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I'd like to make the comparison to a photography community that I run. The site is designed for a very specific category of photography, furthermore it has specific rules on how to share and describe photos. Really quite similar to SO, although much smaller. The site itself, as well as the moderators make sure that everybody is clear on the rules, in so many ways.

Still about 30% of new users signing up ignore every basic rule and just dump offtopic content, they make zero effort to understand the site, its rules, its community. They waste the time of the moderators and their own time, and as a result you can see that moderators started out as friendly guardians, slowly developing into more harsh characters.

Personally, I have no problem with this style of moderation, since those noisy users do not support the primary goal of the site anyway, in fact they do the opposite, they pollute it with noise. As for SO, I believe its purpose is to find high quality answers quickly. As for asking a question, it is perfectly reasonable to have strong policies in place, all to support the primary objective. The objective is not to be friendly and liked by people who are unable to read basic instructions or take constructive criticism.

Removing noise is not elitism in my view. It's just moderation.

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    Good answer. I guess the difference may be that SO's rules are somewhat open to interpretation (what constitutes a "good" question?), while the rules in your community may be easier to objectively evaluate.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:27
  • @deceze, it's not just that the SO rules are open to interpretation, it's also that these rules seem to have changed with time. There seems to be an increase in various forms of reviews and closing votes that wasn't as strict a while back. I understand why it's there, but it sometimes gets in the way of a good Q&A that could be useful to others, (I'm more talking about questions that at the fringe of programming/sysadmin, not suitable for SF, but still questions that can be answered with facts, that is, not too broad or subjective. This change of rigour of interpretation can be a problem.
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 16:50
9

For every question I actually had to ask on Stack Overflow, there were probably 100 other questions I didn't have to ask because someone else had the same problem and posted the question before me, and somebody else had already posted the answer.

Therefore, good questions with good answers, that can easily be found by Google, are the content that make Stack Overflow so very useful. To keep it that way, we must make sure that clever and experienced people have a chance to see and answer good questions, instead of being distracted or deterred by those pointless "need help urgently, please debug my code" questions.

A good question produces an answer that can be extremely useful for thousands of other developers. Bad questions help nobody, probably not even the poor guys who asked, since the level of those questions makes it seem very unlikely that they will ever finish their programs.

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  • Such is the rational we use, yes. Is that elitist? Is it a problem? :)
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 15:36
  • 2
    I dont't think this is elitist. We don't want to keep out poor people, just poor questions. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 15:40
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The way I see it is I come on here to learn, and I admit I am probably the kind of guy referred to in the OP's question. Low score, lots of downvotes when I first started, etc. Heck, I've only got 35 points at the moment.

I used to get mega frustrated at why it seemed so difficult to get people to take you seriously and not downvote. I'd not visit for days, but then I needed to come back to get more help/insights.

It wasn't until I really started to admit I was at the very starting pointing of developing (frontend), and it was then I started to see the beauty of Stack Overflow and the people that contribute to it. You guys are awesome, and I have learned so much and has helped me to get a better job.

It's only because some people are not at the same level as the top people and even most people on Stack Exchange and you do start to feel as though you want to be a part of the top team but realise you guys have put countless hours, days, months, years to get to the level of knowledge you have.

So like in any industry/game/sport the top pros fire off quick and short anwsers which noobs (like me) can feel it wasn't anwsered properly, but in fact, dig a little deeper and every bit of advice and tips lead you to the gold of becoming a better developer.

I want to say thanks to the elite because without you guys us noobs would really suck even more!

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    So elitism is not only necessary but good? I shall quote you on that. :)
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 8:47
  • 4
    For sure! In every aspect of life we need the top people to lead. They are leaders like you guys. Without it there would be nothing spear heading the way. And in development you guys are an authority so it is good!
    – Saty
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 9:18
  • This is a very nice answer. It shows another interesting point (even the best answers can be difficult to understand by a newbie) and also shows that new users of SO change themselves and grow over time if the initial experience is not too bad, if they stay and if they have what it needs. I just hope you now are able to pose better questions or even contribute with answers of your own. Good luck. Commented Jul 21, 2014 at 20:42
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I generally think that talk about being less "elitist" is not only misguided, but actually gets in the way of more useful discussions. It's been explained so many times that it doesn't bear repeating in full that a strict adherence to the constraints on questions and answers is one of Stack Exchange's unique selling points, and that while relaxing them may seem more "kind" or "inclusive", it would undermine an important basis of the site's success - its attractiveness to experts.

Because Meta seems so fond of having the same argument about the above (with the pro-"elitist" side always winning heavily), any points which are related but subtly different tend to get stream-rolled into that same back-and-forth.

One example is tone. It's an interesting argument whether we should treat poor or low-effort questions with a harsh, contemptuous tone to add an extra type of negative feedback to behaviour we don't want, or a warm, patient tone to try to ensure that users who have the potential to be good contributors aren't scared off if they make initial mistakes. Whatever your opinion on this, it's certainly not a pro-elitism vs. anti-elitism or pro-strictness vs. anti-strictness argument, but often it just gets chucked into the same discussion.

A more serious example, to my mind, is the issue of voting to close questions which shouldn't be. See my answer here for an example. Now, you may or may not agree with that particular example (from the rest of the answers/comments, I suspect people overwhelmingly will disagree with me). But there seems to be a general association of "Elitist" -> "Strict" -> "Close more often". But actually the strictest adherence to the site's guidelines would be to use the close reasons most accurately in line with their intention, NOT to overuse them. I think there are a lot of really interesting (to experts!) questions which sit just on the right side of being too broad, or opinion based, and so being too trigger-happy with those close votes actually undermines both the site's rules and their purpose in building up a base of experts who are motivated to ask and answer questions.

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    The tone may vary per case. I usually try to be welcoming to new members, and try to explain a bit about how the site works. But a homework dump gets a -1 and CV. Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 11:42
  • 2
    @S.L.Barth Yeah I think that's sensible. I don't necessarily want to start a conversation about that subject here, it was more an example of a discussion that it's hard to have on Meta without people mentally lumping it in as a "elitist vs inclusive" issue, which it absolutely isn't. Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 11:48
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    It is also easy to be seen as condescending (as in: smothering, parental) if you use a warm tone. Whether you respond warm/helpful or harsh/curt someone will take offense. So I'd suggest people should respond in the way they want as long as it isn't hostile. Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 13:16
9

Overall, I honestly do not think so.

As others have mentioned, the issue is usually due to poor questions being asked and then getting downvoted. However, in my view that's not where the accusations come. It's when the question gets downvoted but no explanation is given as to why.

When I first joined Stack Overflow, I get exasperated at this a lot. Sure there's a guideline, but guidelines don't really explain the problem for your particular question, especially when starting off as a new user; guidelines don't explain how your question is bad; reading thousands of other questions do.

The high rep users complain about accusations of elitism, but they never bothered to give a simple, 5 second explanation on why they downvoted the question and help the new user. If you look at other Stack Exchange sites, for example this question on history.stackexchange, a simple one-liner was typed up by a veteran user on why the post is downvoted. It took him no more than five seconds (although curiously even that Stack Exchange site has something similar to this question).

However, when I got into the flow of how to ask a good question on Stack Overflow, I've rarely gotten a downvote since even though I'm a relatively new programmer and my questions are quite basic. A super basic C++ question I've asked was graced by not one, but two 100k+ rep users. This to me shows that the community largely isn't elitist, but it is just suffering from lack of communication from the old and the new.

That being said however, I can think of a few users on this site who can be branded as 'elitist' through and through - just read their profiles. One guy is even elitist about his favourite language...

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    Very reasonable answer. Personally, the lack of communication simply stems from the overwhelming traffic SO has to deal with. I try to communicate as much as possible, but sometimes that's hard. When you see the 10th oh god why... what is this i don't even... how...?! why...?! what...?! question of the day, you sometimes don't even know where to start giving feedback.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 11:04
  • 2
    Hmm, you're happy with a C++ expert answering your question but you didn't actually mark the answer helpful. We can't have nice things here when users don't vote. It is the most basic and most constructive form of communication at this site. Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 11:16
  • @HansPassant how do I mark an anser as 'helpful' and why should I even do that when I accepted it? Commented Oct 29, 2014 at 11:48
7

Let's try a totally different approach and see what Wikipedia has to say to the term elitism:

Elitism is the belief or attitude that some individuals, who form an elite—a select group of people with a certain ancestry, intrinsic quality or worth, high intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes—are those whose influence or authority is greater than that of others; whose views on a matter are to be taken more seriously or carry more weight; whose views or actions are more likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom render them especially fit to govern

So let's have a look what Stack Overflow is, should be, or we want it to be, according to some things listed there. I will translate "that of others" as "the average" here (as "that of others" too much sounds like "all of the others" while it surely isn't meant as such, as there can be multiple "elitist groups" for a matter)

  • a selected group of people The community selection process is complex, but ultimately driven by higher-than-average knowledge and a thick enough skin to stay and help others.
  • authority greater than that of the average. Yes, we want people to come here and take Stack Overflow as more authorative than other secondary sources.
  • views are taken more seriously than the average I certainly hope that our peer reviewed answers are taken more seriously than that of the average Joe.
  • are more likely to be constructive Already by our format of constructive and unopinionated Q&A rather than freeform text and rants we strive to be more constructive than the average.
  • extraordinary skills, abilities, or wisdom I think this site (and Stack Exchange sites in general) is frequented by quite a few extraordinary minds that are not present on the average forum or mailing lists out there.

So, yep, we are elitist, and this means we are on a good way to fulfill our mission statement: Get good people together to write a database of Q&A that the not-so-good people can learn from. If this would work perfectly, we would be able to educate everyone up to the elitists level, which would mean per the definition, they would lose the elitism.

And that would be good.

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  • I liked the start of this answer, but I'm afraid you have misconstrued "we". By "we" I do not mean SE as opposed to other sites, I mean "the SO elite users" as opposed to those SO users that do not feel themselves to be part of that club. I think the answer may be the same in the end, but I want to make sure we're talking about the same thing.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 12:35
  • 3
    @deceze: By "we" I mean the users of SO/SE sites that live the mission statement by trying as hard as they can to create a database of good Q&A and wipe out bad content. At the other side I see people that are used to the infamous web forums (ever read a 560 page xda-dev thread?), which come with this same attitude here, and ultimately are SO/SE users too, but of a totally different kind; more like the vampires and leechers, on the extreme end. There is a grey zone of inability to ask proper questions in between but I think it is small, and most of them seem to realize that they can get better
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 12:40
  • OK, that makes more sense.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 12:44
  • One of the problem is that "we" don't necessarily share the same vision of that mission statement. Of course, we can agree on creating a "database of good Q&A and wipe out bad content", no problem there, but there are some grey areas to define what's good or bad here.
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 17:18
  • @Bruno: When you are unsure about some gray areas, you might want to ask proper questions about meta. Ultimately the goal isn't set by the users of the site though, but by the creators.
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 17:33
  • The creators have changed their minds, though. That's the problem. They were also quite happy with the traffic getting there from such grey-area questions in the first place. To be clear, I'm talking about this sort of grey area (or this question which was closed for almost a year until now).
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 17:38
  • I agree with your answer completely, and have always frowned when ppl seem to use the word elitist as something inherently negative, as I consider myself preferring elitism in a lot areas (even though not being elite in those areas myself). But apparently it can be defined in a totally different way, for example: "being or characteristic of a person who has an offensive air of superiority and tends to ignore or disdain anyone regarded as inferior" (source: merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/elitist ) which seems to be the more common definition ppl seem to use when name calling. Commented Jan 5, 2016 at 17:14
7

I recently joined after it occurred to me that most of my professional internet searches resulted in an answer from this site. I felt it was time to contribute (as if the world needed my opinion in addition to the ones already there, how is that for arrogance?). I find the badges & points system to be at the base of both the success and the "arrogance" of the site. It motivates people to contribute and it appeals to their needs to feel superior. It is a knife that cuts both ways.

I think most of us can admit we are a bunch of smart asses. We are curious, we like to understand the nitty gritty, and once we do it feels good and we like to show it off. We are competitive and we like games. The site lives by this kind of attitude.

We are also nerds that like order, we want things to be "right". If it's not right we get anxious and frustrated. Down vote!

If someone enlightens us and clears the unsatisfying turmoil in our heads though, we respect and admire it. Up vote!

It's how we roll, this site was made for our kind.

As one gets older (I suspect the original poster is not that young anymore) there may be less of an urge to prove oneself and more of an urge to mentor and teach. That's nice. I find myself upvoting novices who have been downvoted based on formalities because I recognize the drive and struggle and I do not want to kill that.

It is a community. There is room and need for arrogance as well as mildness and modesty.

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    Based on what "formality"? That could be either good (though fixing it would be better) or abysmally bad. Commented Jan 3, 2016 at 16:55
  • By formality I mean for instance their code is incomplete or not nicely formatted or absent or they are so buried in their dead end that they fail to provide proper context. If I can sense they tried hard nonetheless, I will be more forgiving. Commented Jan 3, 2016 at 18:03
  • 5
    Well, all those cases you enumerated (with the possible exception of code-formatting, which you can often just fix yourself) are begging for downvoting and closing ASAP. Though if you think nudging the user with a comment is more useful, you are welcome to try that first. Don't upvote before the post is fixed though, please. That just misleads others into wasting their time, and makes culling, in the likely case that it isn't ever fixed, far more difficult. It's more than difficult enough already... Commented Jan 3, 2016 at 18:07
5

I asked a similar question to myself the other day, when I saw quite a few poor quality questions. For a couple questions, I literally copied and pasted the title and found the answer on the top link of a similar question on here. And they weren't getting down-voted!

When I first started, the first handful of posts got downvoted, people seemed rigid and it really seemed austere and overly strict. I couldn't figure out why I was getting downvoted, and it bummed me out. But, after a few posts, and learning how to take the time to know what I was asking, I got a great response. And I also received better quality and more thorough answers. It's better for the community all around, to keep a tight control of the quality on here.

And I also agree, that this is a platform for professionals and enthusiasts. We shouldn't waste our time on a user who didn't spend a little time on research--aka first couple pages on a google search--It's not like anyone is asking too much. It's very open to new blood here, and people are very eager to help when they sense new talent in the community. But there are standards, guidelines, and conventions that are there for meaningful reasons.

In response to the elitist club, yea, we're programmers. We're better than others, so what?

5

I'm a little scared to answer this question, because I may be über down voted. :-)

Specifically towards this part of the question:

To clarify: I'm asking for a little bit of introspection here.

I think it can be easy to be elitist, especially to new people that may not understand the rules and culture of Stack Overflow.

One tool that may help people avoid being elitist is the following:

  • Take time to consider your intent, is it to help, to guide, or to punish.

Sometimes, we may be too harsh, and punish uniformed users who break rules or cultural norms that are dear to us. Sometimes we may down vote people because we were down voted for a similar thing in the past.

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    Voting is not just for the original poster. It serves multiple purposes. 1st, it signals to answerers that the question is not worth their time reading. 2nd, it signals answer seekers that, again, the question is not worth reading. 3rd, it signals to other question askers that the question is not a good example of a good question. 4th, downvoting questions allows high-rep users to quickly remove unwanted content, without moderator intervention. Finally, voting signals the Stack Exchange system to take special actions with regards to questions.
    – user456814
    Commented Jul 6, 2014 at 7:50
  • 1
    Also, there's no need to be worried about being super downvoted on Meta, it doesn't really mean much, other than that people disagree with you. It could also mean that you wrote a bad answer, but I think your answer is pretty fair, even though I disagree with it.
    – user456814
    Commented Jul 6, 2014 at 7:55
  • I wonder if there is a way to provide a bit of mentoring to users that may have created lower quality questions? What if the system would notice when a user has a certain down vote pattern, and then request a "mentor" to contact the user to give them some guidance?
    – Jay Haase
    Commented Jul 6, 2014 at 7:56
  • Make it into a separate feature request. Note that these mentors will probably have to be volunteer high-rep users.
    – user456814
    Commented Jul 6, 2014 at 7:58
  • 5
    @JayHaase This is not a mentoring site, not a tutorial site. We are here to build a library of programming Q&A. The goal is not to have every programmer participate here, only those who are capable of and willing to help with this goal. Users who are not yet able to ask useful questions are given a great amount of resources they can use to improve, we do not need more than that. Punishment is sometimes needed, as it is a great tool for guidance. Of course one should never punish just for the fun of it :).
    – kapa
    Commented Jul 6, 2014 at 8:06
  • FYI, Area 51 proposal for a Stack Overflow mentoring exchange.
    – user456814
    Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 23:28
5

I would like to add my opinion to the discussion. I am quite new to Stack Overflow (I didn't post a lot of questions), and a few of my questions got some downvotes. Of course, I felt quite frustrated about that, but I didn't call anyone elitist, because I don't think this is the real problem.

Now I would like to use an example. The other day, I asked a question. Because I tried to make it as clear as possible, I spent about 20 minutes writing this question, which is made of three paragraphs. Like many other persons on this site, I do not speak English very well (although it helped me make real progress!).

Two minutes after posting the question, I got a downvote! I was lucky enough to get an explanation in the comments, though:

Welcome to SO. Please read What topics can I ask about and How to ask a good question And the perfect question And How to create a Minimal, Complete and Verifiable example

So I read some of the previous answers to this discussion, and some of you said that beginners to the site are lazy. I think you're partly right. I have to admit, I really didn't want to spend an hour studying "how do I ask a good question?". I think in this case laziness is a normal/human reaction. We can complain as much as we want, but it won't change anything and it's normal.

But I also think that it's true to say the users who copy/paste these answers to every question like mine are lazy themselves. How do they want every beginner to make the effort to make some progress in applying the rules of asking a good question if they don't make an effort themselves to help them?

So after a few hours, I actually got two answers to my question, including one that solved my problem. The user who posted the answer understood my question perfectly, since his answer solved my problem perfectly. Again, I'm not saying that my question was perfectly clear.

What I'm saying is that sometimes, instead of pasting four links to some two hours guides called "How to ask a question" in the comments and downvoting my question without any explanation, users should simply try to read the question again in order to understand it. After all, two other users understood my question and I got two brilliant answers.

This is the point of view of someone who went through this kind of situation. I took the example of something that really happened to me, and I think I'm really not the only one like this.

So to recap:

  • I don't think Stack Overflow is elitist at all, and I understand the idea behind the website.
  • Not everybody speaks English fluently, and a guide to "How to ask a good question" won't solve this.
  • Beginners to the site are very lazy. In their mind, this site is simply a forum where they can solve their problem. That's all.
  • Many of the accustomed users are lazy themselves. If they want the beginners not to be lazy, they must work on themselves before. The opposite doesn't work, and it's been proved.
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    If I am interpreting your last point correctly, you are saying the users who provide the stock comment you received as lazy because they are just copy and pasting a standard comment instead of providing individual support to everyone? While it is a noble idea, it just doesn't scale. Providing that kind of support takes a lot of time and there are 10's of thousands of new questions a day. Providing the individual support would mean far fewer users would get any feedback, which means there are more unexplained downvotes. At least with the stock comment, it provides some general guidance. Commented Jul 9, 2016 at 11:52
  • I understand what you're saying. I never said the contrary, but I think that beginners won't bother trying to clarify their question if nobody explains what's wrong. So the users who provide the stock comment shouldn't expect anything back from the person who asked the question if they don't do any efforts themselves. It's sad but it's true. So in that case, what's the point of answering ? In addition to the stock comment, it would be far more relevant if the person gave more details, like that : "I don't really understand this point, could you clarify it ? If you need help, [insert links]..."
    – tomfl
    Commented Jul 9, 2016 at 12:00
  • And I think that before downvoting the question, the person should wait to see if the OP gives any interests to his suggestions. It's very discouraging to get a downvote straight away, without understanding why. And then, the OP definitely won't find the courage to edit entirely his question.
    – tomfl
    Commented Jul 9, 2016 at 12:02
  • 2
    I tend to think of it the opposite way around. If you leave a general comment and the user is generally interested in improving the question, they will ask for help understanding what specifically is wrong. Nothing is more frustrating providing specific advice to someone who is going to ignore it. I've left plenty of specific comments and most are ignored by the asker. So why should I waste my time to help someone who is unwilling to make the effort themselves. It is a catch-22, but I think the burden should be on the asker since they are asking the question initially. Commented Jul 9, 2016 at 12:06
  • I do agree that the ready-made copy-n-paste replies aren't very welcoming or often useful; I'm not a big fan of them at all...
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 9, 2016 at 12:08
  • 1
    @deceze I get that point of it, but where to draw the line? I don't have any ready-made comments (and don't use them myself), but I can see some value in their use. Custom comments on every post that needs help take time and I wonder if they are an effort to provide some sort of feedback to questions rather than having another "downvotes should require comments" question on meta. If there are no copy-and-paste comments, those posts may not get any kind of feedback. Commented Jul 9, 2016 at 12:12
  • 1
    @psubsee2003 I get that and agree with it as well. Personally I try to craft custom comments when I see potential for them, and simply ignore (closevote) anything else. If I can't say anything useful, I rather say nothing at all. The automatic close comment will take care of it. Is that the best solution? Certainly not. But we simply can't cover everything at this scale with equal quality. There's a certain percentage which simply doesn't receive individualized, personalized feedback. Tough luck, but that's how it is.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 9, 2016 at 12:21
  • We shouldn't forbid the copy-and-paste comments, I'm just saying that the people who use them should give a little more thought into their answer. If they read the question properly, it should take them maximum 20 seconds to say "I don't understand that part where you say...". And they can always add the copy-and-paste part at the end of their comment for additional help. What I'm certain of is that if they just use this stock comment and dowvote the question, they would just be losing their time, the OP won't bother to edit his question. They should just leave and help somebody else.
    – tomfl
    Commented Jul 9, 2016 at 12:21
  • @psubsee2003 : if someone doesn't answer you "hand made" comments, don't forget that some people are willing to make an effort in return. If you just post a copy-and-paste comment, you can bet your life that 90% of the people will ignore it. So again, if you know you're about to use this kind of comment, don't bother.
    – tomfl
    Commented Jul 9, 2016 at 12:24
1

It can come across as elitist, but I do understand the need for moderation and rules. From some folks, I don't really get the vibe that they'd like to help me learn something. It seems like they'd rather point out flaws than offer anything constructive, and it's usually the people who need the help the most getting the negative feedback. Arguably, the new poster didn't earn your respect, so they don't deserve your time or your knowledge, and that is an elitist mentality. Complaining about bad topics and pushing ignorant/inquisitive people away only widens the knowledge gap, which seems counterproductive.

If a question is too broad, it may very well be because the poster does not have the formal training in programming to get more detailed. That's why they came to SO. We are not intentionally posting ignorant questions; we came to the site trying to change the fact that we are ignorant. In my mind, the veteran programmer has the knowledge to tell folks how to narrow the scope of their question. To ask the oblivious poster for more detail without giving some direction to get more detail is futile. It is also a gross misuse of talented users' time and only serves to degrade the experience for everyone because we spend too much time moderating and not enough time answering. I had several folks flag a post of mine as too broad without asking more pointed questions. Admittedly, it was poorly written, and even a month later I cannot believe that I did not make the connection. You are always going to have new ignorant users. Either do a better job with instructional design and coaching, or continue moderating to infinite. It is that simple.

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    Well, pointing out how a post comes short against our standards / the perfect post is helping. Yes, maybe one could be more specific by also pointing out how to resolve that, but that's often either useless (that was all the hint needed) or counter-productive (not letting the OP achieve enlightenment himself / provoking an unreasonable allergic reaction). Also keep in mind that the additional work might be more effectively spent on one of the next posts. At the end though, this is simply the wrong site for anyone wanting mentoring/coaching/tutoring. Commented Aug 29, 2015 at 22:35
  • I agree and kind of conceded that in the first sentence of my comment. I understand that this site was designed for a precise technical professional, but multiple layers of abstraction make arbitration difficult. I think my point is that SO reached a critical mass, and that means people will discover the site who might not meet standards. This is a problem that is not going away. We both agree that time can be better spent. So, Unless you decide to lock out users who don't meet standards, some rethinking might be in order. PS there is a coaching badge. Commented Aug 29, 2015 at 23:01
  • 2
    Your points are perfectly understandable. However, the main design philosophy behind SO is to provide a growing knowledge base of problems and their solutions to the professional who needs it. It is not a forum where anyone can find the help/mentoring/hand holding they may require. That's why we close and clean in the first place: to keep the knowledge base free of clutter that would make it harder to use in a pinch. When I search for "python class dict key error" I most certainly am not interested in a million broad beginners mentoring topics. Does that make sense?
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Aug 30, 2015 at 5:20
  • Makes sense of course. It's not the why it is being done that is the question. It is the how it is being handled. You are spinning your wheels, as evidenced by the length of this thread here. I see a lot of SO people reaffirming your point here. The fact that you all need this thread to boost your confidence against the untrained user is something. I think it's great that you guys present a unified front, but some of your enforcers need policing. If you want to talk about clutter, let's talk about the topics on how to handle topics. PS search isn't really an issue, and 1 million is 10% Commented Aug 30, 2015 at 15:08
0

I notice a lot of posturing about 'the good old days' and how 'poor questions ruin SO' and yet you find loads of people with a high rep count more than happy to answer said poor questions and accept the rep with it. To me, it seems we're not just elitist (which if it means a better SO then so be it) but worse - hypocritical.

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    What would the alternative be? Closing every single "poor" question? Wouldn't that be construed as even more elitist and exclusionary? I don't think people care about their magic unicorn points anymore after a certain level (I know I don't), they just want to answer/help/clean up.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 11:38
  • 2
    But if you answer poor questions don't you encourage them that way? I think you do. And if so, I think it's hypocritical to criticise people for posting them. If they don't get answered or are simply closed, then it's one way to motivate people to write better questions. As I said I don't mind SO being seen as elitist, I think this is better than hypocritical.
    – Nobilis
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 11:42
  • 3
    There's a level though. Really crap questions are getting closed. Tolerable questions are getting answered. There is a line being drawn. And people are already complaining that there is a line.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 11:45
  • I think downvoting is the problem because it's sometimes plain arbitrary and it comes across as elitist. But I'm not sure if the alternatives are better.
    – Nobilis
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 11:57
  • 6
    The "hypocrite" label only works if user X is doing the posturing and answering. On the contrary, user X is doing the posturing but user Y is doing the answering. That's not hypocrisy: that's diversity. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 11:58
  • 3
    Any kind of downvoting? Then I'd say you need to grow a ticker skin. Peer criticism is part of the routing here, that's how and why the system works. Unfair criticism (including unfair downvotes) are of course another matter. But define what "unfair" is.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:00
  • 1
    Unhelpfully negative attitudes would motivate me to spend my time elsewhere. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:13
  • 1
    @deceze I'm not personally offended by the downvoting, I just think it doesn't work as well as it should and it deters people.
    – Nobilis
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:53
  • 1
    To some degree that's the desired effect. SO is actively exclusionary to very low-rep users (question/answer bans, account suspensions, etc...)
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:55
  • 1
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't think you get to tens even several hundred thousands of rep without answering some of those poor questions. It's not my aim to point fingers but in other threads about the 'decline of SO' you do find experts bemoaning the amount of poor questions and yet with such a high rep count I find it impossible to believe that they've concentrated solely on good, well-researched questions. But that veers into conjecture and I don't want to go there.
    – Nobilis
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:56
  • 1
    @deceze Well, that's kinda elitist then, don't you think? ;)
    – Nobilis
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:58
  • 2
    Where to draw the line there? I think most super-high rep users (cough) got there by being somewhat OCD and enjoying posting solutions to whatever is being thrown at them (cough). They certainly wouldn't have the rep they have if that wasn't so. They're helping people with answers, maybe sometimes too much so. Is that bad? Should the bar be raised even higher than where it currently is (remember, people are already complaining about the presence of a bar at all)? Should fewer answers be posted and less people helped (people are complaining about "not being helped")?
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:59
  • 1
    @deceze I'm not criticising the experts for providing their help generously. But I find it difficult to distinguish between eagerness to help and repwhoring when bad questions get answers and yet they are seen as a blight. I don't know a better balance, but perhaps it's worth starting somewhere and that is by outright refusal to answer duplicated and poorly formulated questions. SO should first and foremost serve its current community and only then think about attracting more members. I'm not opposed to the presence of a bar, but if there is one, then it needs to be there consistently.
    – Nobilis
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 13:11
  • 1
    I think "repwhoring" is more or less as mythical as "elitism". Maybe there are some poor souls out there who do it just for the unicorn points, but I highly doubts it's as big a phenomenon as it's made out to be. Especially with SO being so sharply critical, that's a hell of a lot of work to do just for some imaginary points. I still don't think that the solution to being perceived as elitist (which means "denying" users an answer to their question because of Holier Than Thou) is to answer even fewer questions.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 13:28
  • 2
    Yeah, it's easy to forget that this is all a voluntary effort done by human beings at the other end of the data connection. That may be the biggest problem. I still like the saying that you should imagine stepping in front of an auditorium full of people when asking your question. I bet 90% of the questions would not get posted if people remembered that.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 14:44
0

This question shows no research effort yet is still open with 186 upvotes and 69 favorites:

What is a NullPointerException, and how do I fix it?

SO's culture was different back then, and IMHO it's changed for the worse, with elitist users acting arrogantly.

Elitism, like any ism, is fine as long as it doesn't oppress others. It's the blunt arrogance and apparent hypocrisy that's the problem. For example, why are these insanely popular questions not closed for lack of research effort? And why do these duplicates of these have 10+ upvotes each but these all -1?

As for those questions only being tolerated because they are canonical, excluding new questions of similar "quality" is not only elitist, but unfriendly to enthusiastic beginners. A common issue among the elite.

As requested, the definition of elitist i'm referring to:

e·lit·ist [ih-lee-tist ey-lee‐] adjective 1. (of a person or class of persons) considered superior by others or by themselves, as in intellect, talent, power, wealth, or position in society: elitist country clubbers who have theirs and don't care about anybody else. 2. catering to or associated with an elitist class, its ideologies, or its institutions: Even at such a small, private college, Latin and Greek are under attack as too elitist.

I like Latin because of its simple alphabet and logical way to create new words, but Greek, like doing deep research for a simple thing you're stuck on (a strange API for example) which an expert can answer in minutes or would enjoy researching, is certainly too elitist for me.

I certainly think not all, or even most of the 7+k new questions per day this site is getting are new questions that haven't been answered here before, but banhammering something just because it doesn't list the Google terms the questioner used is too extreme for someone who obviously has not found an existing answer to their question.

Perhaps a simpler question form like Bugzilla's with fields like "What have you tried, what happened, what did you expect?" would cut down the number of duplicates, as i doubt that most normal people, especially those in a hurry, calmly scroll down the list of possibly similar questions and compare each one to what they're asking. Maybe turning that into an explicit step without having to scroll, possibly with a timeout before being able to continue to the question form, would help as well.

Of course advanced users should be able to skip those steps and directly formulate a question that meets the subjective quality expectations of those who first see the question.

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    Yes, very. SO certainly has gotten stricter over time. But also, SO has basically covered all those basic questions already. We've seen it all a million times by now. We do not want or need to answer the same things again and again. SO's goal was always to be more like Wikipedia, in which each question exists once with one good canonical answer. Back then that question was new and albeit it basic, there wasn't much else to answer back then. These days it wouldn't need yet another answer, and we have figured out that we don't want those basic questions either (rightly or wrongly?).
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:06
  • 2
    Enthusiast programmers start out at basic level, and SO's policy is to duplicate good answers from other Google hits, so that question belongs here. New questions of a similar level being downvoted without explanation is rude to a newcomer. At least flag/link to a duplicate if one exists (which may not be obvious to the asker due to phrasing). Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:25
  • 6
    Closing as duplicate happens often enough. But as I wrote, that is fact often the spark for accusations of "elitism". - "But it's a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT question...!" (When, no, it's not.)
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:28
  • How did the answer pointed to not help them? Perhaps due to being for a different tag set, in which case answering the new question explaining how an existing answer applies might be the best answer. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:35
  • 3
    As I see it, many users do not recognise where their problem overlaps with existing solutions, or do not recognise that the question they actually need to ask is a different one because they're asking the wrong question. Which means, they misunderstand the duplicate, or don't know how to apply it to their situation. It's of course hard to judge whether that will be the case when closing as duplicate. On the other hand, we do not want to repeat existing answers nor do we want mostly-link-only answers with a bit of additional commentary. So... where to strike the balance?
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:43
  • 5
    As concrete example, this often happens in encoding related questions; because seriously nobody understands character encodings. Users will swear up and down that the canonical explanation I closed their question as has nothing to do with their question whatsoever; until I press them in the comments to seriously try everything in that canonical duplicate, which then always resolves their problem. The problem there is just that the user doesn't trust me that I've actually understood their problem and have already given them the answer they need.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:46
  • That sounds like my manager. I think i communicate among the best in my company, but the results aren't in yet. In the end, whatever saves the most time is best. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:49
  • 1
    Certainly we (as in, "we who moderate") are managers. Moderators try to steer the community in the way they believe is right. The thing is, everyone can be a manager/moderator on SO if they want to. (And if they play by the rules to get enough rep.) The question is, is this system working as it should?
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 12:53
  • 1
    As in disagreeing with what seems obvious to me. It's not fair that old users did not have their "easy" questions voted to oblivion, hence the hypocrisy argument. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 14:45
  • 1
    That's certainly a valid point. Those that mostly constitute "the elite" nowadays had it easier when they/SO were young than those who are "young" now. However, what's the solution? We can't go back in time to fix that. We did figure out over time what we want and what we don't want. And not for some subjective reasons, but because it makes or breaks SO. Or so we believe. Are we wrong to believe that? It also seems to me that back in the olden days™ votes and closings were perceived as good gamesmanship, while they've now become reason to scream and shout.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 14:58
  • "What we want" is not what at least 186 users who upvoted that question want. Excluding beginners is elitist. Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 15:02
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    The question you linked is a canonical question. It is a question that is asked repeatedly on Stack Overflow by people who don't do prior research. The answer is always the same, which is why we wrote the canonical question.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 18:08
  • 1
    @RobertHarvey: why would you replicate any official documentation? We do not want to do that. Also, that question is too broad with today's rules anyway. Write cannonical questions for things that are not yet documented properly and not clear case close-worthy with today's rules. Commented Jul 6, 2014 at 8:58
  • 2
    Just because a question is popular, it does not also mean that it's a good question, in terms of quality. Many Stack Exchange sites, especially technical ones, have standards for prior research, putting at least a little effort into self-research before coming and asking your questions here. You also fail to clearly define what it means, to you, to be "elitist", and how being so is a bad thing for Stack Overflow. This site is deluged by 7-8k new questions per day...there needs to be a way of filtering.
    – user456814
    Commented Jul 9, 2014 at 15:22
  • 1
    And to add something up to the discussion, I think that the quintessential for SO existence is Education, which never ever ever...should be faced from a "superior" attitude. All knowledge has its origins in ignorance, no one should forget that.
    – Typo
    Commented Apr 2, 2015 at 3:53
-1

I have a mini theory on the whole elitism discussion. It goes like this:

  • Stack Overflow is pretty comprehensive (that's why we come here). There is a good base of the common questions already in place.

  • The people who originally asked/answered these questions get reputation points continually (that's good; they are good questions with good answers on a useful topic)

  • New(ish) users come here and see all these mighty coders striding around with thousands of rep

  • They think, cool, I want some of that, so I'll ask a simple question, I've seen this kind of question elsewhere (asked answered by a high rep user), so it must be good (they haven't read the [help]. Who reads help files, right?)

  • They get slapped down...this question has been asked before, why didn't you search, downvote, you're a moron, etc., etc., etc.

The user understandably thinks the site is elitist. High rep users get away with asking these types of question? Why can't I?

So are we (you) being elitist?

Maybe, but that's the nature of the beast. Is this bad?

Yes and no. Yes, the site relies on fresh blood. Discouraging this is to the detriment of the community. No, the site is trying to maintain a useful resource, and having the same questions is not good for this.

What do we do?

Be nice, explain why, and comment on downvotes saying why you're downvoting them. Give users the chance to learn how to behave and improve...some won't listen (more fool them)


On a sidenote:

Is it harder to gain rep than it used to be?

Yes, yes it is, but, as I said above, that's the nature of the beast...

-8

There is unquestionably an appearance of elitism and/or authoritarianism. Every time someone finds the answer they seek on a question closed because the asker forgot to start the sentence with "what is"... the average persons is going to think "wow, what a bunch of arrogant pricks"

Prior to reading the replies to this question, I would have called it simply an appearance, but the sanctimonious tone of the replies indicates that the symptoms are indicative of a proper disease.

The members of the elite rarely question the status-quo, and the elite rule this place. Worst of all, you seem to feel morally justified in closing questions over spelling errors or bad English.

The manner in which the shards of your "broken windows" are laying around is not increasing the quality of the content—quite the opposite.

  1. People are afraid to ask because they know the question will probably be closed by (what the average person without a god complex would perceive as) some arrogant jerk.

Perhaps you don't realize just exactly how hurtful it can be... but again based on the callous replies, I doubt the elites around here concern themselves with the "feelings" of lowly neophytes.

  1. More often than not, the good answers are on the closed, so-called "bad" questions. Often the question Stack Exchange elitists have labeled bad are the only answers online to the question. It is asinine to consider this beneficial to anyone.

  2. Because closed questions are locked down entirely, bad answers also get to sit around unchallenged. A bad answer is arguably an order of magnitude more harmful than a duplicate question.

So the answer to the first is a resounding "yes". It seems elitism has taken over so much that the elites are embracing it.

Case in point—Top voted comment by @Oded: "We are being elitists only by actually rejecting low quality/off-topic content. How dare we?"

A sarcastic response based on a false assumption: that closed questions are in-fact low quality.

I find most of my answers on what you would call a "bad" question

If one can put their ego in a box for a moment and be objective—if the shards you leave laying around from all those "broken windows" are cutting everyone's feet... how is that beneficial?

The replies to this question are disgusting; the apparent community agreement is just sad.

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    Please read: Why should I help close "bad" questions that I think are valid, instead of helping the OP with an answer? And no, questions generally do not get closed over matters that can be fixed by anyone else editing the question. They are closed for things that require the OP's input to fix. Finally: if you're looking for people to show more consideration, consider starting with more charity. People quite simply don't, on balance, have the negative attitudes or motivations you ascribe to them. Commented May 2 at 4:08
  • 1
    If three other people think something is low quality and you do not, why should your opinion outweigh theirs? If someone gave an answer to the question that helped you, why should that have any bearing on whether the question was low quality? And wouldn't you prefer to see high quality questions that describe the issue accurately (so that you know you're in the right place) and clearly (so that it uses the same terms you would use in a search query)? Commented May 2 at 4:13
  • 5
    "closing questions over spelling errors or bad english" on the contrary Stack Overflow doesn't have any closure reason for that. You'd find that if the only problem with a post is grammar there are people willing to edit the post to fix that (Obviously the English should at least be okay enough so that people can make sense of the post). Commented May 2 at 6:12
  • 2
    As already explained, spelling errors and bad English are not reasons to vote to close. On the other hand, when volunteers point out such problems via comments or edits, they are sometimes met with aggressiveness because they take criticism personally. Are you sure that the folks you've interacted with are that loaded with ego and arrogance?
    – E_net4
    Commented May 2 at 7:04
  • 1
    sigh This would be pretty okay, but why insult people? I mean, yes, I do find too many people to misuse closure (give me a penny everytime someone says every question must show an attempt, or the good old pretend-needs-focus-is-too-broad attitude) but, seriously, how should someone like me even entertain to agree with this kind of answer? Commented May 2 at 16:04
  • That is one of three in the last 24 hours. Did some external site create the attention? Or is it oscillations on MSO? Or a coincidence? Commented May 2 at 17:16
-11

..“elitist”? Is there something wrong with that?

Sure, being "elitist" is/must be wrong because we are here for all people who fullfill a very limited set of requirements. The goal is Q&A for all enthusiast programmers, not Q&A for only selected circle that goes beyond - for the latter my time would be too valuable and I wouldn't want to take part in it.

Of course there is a restriction to begin with: The only requirements are a bit of programming knowledge, the ability to formulate understandable questions and a minimal politeness.

But the selection should not go beyond this, ever. Stack Overflow is for every programmer and every programming questions as long as fits the minimal well-known requirements.

Stack Overflow is not restricted to only great questions and great answers. This is not only missing reality on Stack Overflow by 99.9%, but it would also be extremely elitist.

That being said I think that the accusations of elitism mostly come from newbies who are:

  • A bit inapt at complying at all the rules. A bit more love might be in order there, but this would be a different discussion.
  • Just aren't able at posing a good question and are just angry. We can safely ignore them or just hint at the reasons why a Q&A site that accepts any kind of question is doomed. This could maybe get promoted more effectively.

And having said that, my impression is that we on average show a sufficient amount of love towards newcomers and give enough help.

I just wish newcomers would stay and would fight for their place on Stack Overflow.

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    You seem to be contradicting yourself. You are saying "we are here for all the people, not just for a subset." and then you go on and describe the subset of people we are here for (which precludes the majority of this planets population).
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 12:15
  • 1
    @PlasmaHH I don't see the limits so narrow, almost everyone can have a bit of programming knowledge, the ability to formulate understandable questions and a minimal politness. I want to stress the point that the selection process should not go beyond this. I made it clearer. Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 12:18
  • 9
    Ok, and here we disagree: I think that only a fraction of this planets population is able to have some programming knowledge (by todays definition of programming) or should even be able to have it. The majority should be able to formulate understandable questions, but by far not "almost everyone".
    – PlasmaHH
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 12:32
  • 3
    @PlasmaHH And that's probably the source of the whole elitism debate. We all circle around and around the minimal requirements of SO for many questions in the last months. (just remember "give us the lacks minimal understanding close reason back") Different people, different opinions. In the end you get a compromise but noone is really happy with it. Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 12:39
  • 1
    @PlasmaHH "Ok, and here we disagree: I think that only a fraction of this planets population is able to have some programming knowledge (by todays definition of programming) or should even be able to have it." I agree, but it feels like saying things like that would get you banned from many established Internet communities for learning/teaching programming. Commented Apr 22, 2023 at 12:11
-13

Does Stack Overflow have elitist tendencies? Yes, definitely.

I am a somewhat experienced software developer, having worked professionally for a couple of years and for many years in my spare time. I haven't posted a lot of questions, nor do I have answers. I mainly read what's already posted. I also upvote questions and answers when I find them useful.

I'm terrified of asking questions (and answering), because of three things:

  • English is not my first language, so more often than not my explanations and sentences will be overly complex and difficult to understand.
  • I am too lazy to sift through tens or hundreds of questions and their answers for a possible duplicate, but at the same time afraid of posing a question that is indeed a duplicate (or can be perceived as such).
  • I have seen how harshly other users have been treated. So far I've managed to stay clear of that myself, but that's maybe due to my self-censoring.

I understand perfectly that it's tiresome to read the same vague and inexperienced beginner question for the millionth time. My perspective though, is that we have all been beginners. I'm not only talking about programming, but also Stack Overflow or Q & A websites more broadly. That inexperience can make anyone nervous and we all know how nervousness can make you stumble and increase the risk of making mistakes, for example language mistakes, forgetting to format code correctly or forget to tag the question appropriately.

Both my parents were teachers all their professional lives. They always said that there are no stupid questions, as long as they are genuinely asked. If someone truly doesn't know for example how to sort a list in Java, then they should have the right to ask for the answer. Could they have read an introductory book about Java? Sure. Could they have read the List API? Sure. There are plenty of things they could have done, but instead they chose to ask on Stack Overflow. There are multiple ways to answer such a question, with varying degree of helpfulness. Let me give some examples, from least helpful to most helpful.

  1. "Try the search function before you post stupid questions."
  2. Give a link to the List API and also post an example snippet on how to sort a list.
  3. "That's a good question! I see you're quite new here, so before posting your next question, please give [link to guidelines for new questions] a read. It will help you ask good questions and it helps us to give better answers." Then, do the same as (2).

Newcomers will always feel more welcomed and more inclined to follow the rules if they are recognized in a friendly tone, and if their mistakes are recognized not as malicious, but instead as understandable rookie mistakes. It's also a nice touch if the more experienced tells the newbie that they have made the same mistake in the past.

I know that Stack Overflow isn't here to make people feel warm and fuzzy inside; it's a Q & A website where people mostly want to get good answers on well specified questions. However, I do think that a lot of the elitism reputation and the scariness newcomers may feel, can be mitigated by recognizing that we all have been beginners and we have all had problems formulating good, specific questions. We can also be better at making sure to welcome new members and guide them to follow the rules in a friendly manner and not treat every mistake as "Sigh! This is the seventh time today I had to link to the goddamn FAQ today".

Perhaps I'm asking too much of this community. After all, it's for and by programmers. Usually, programmers aren't educated teachers. And just because you're a knowledgeable programmer doesn't mean that you are a good (and patient) teacher. Also, this isn't primarily an educational website, although I wish that it would be more like it.

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    So... instead of closing duplicates, you're suggesting answering them, correct?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 18:00
  • @KevinB Yes preferrably, if it requires a short answer and if better answers don't exist as anwers on the other question. After an anwer is given and maybe been accepted, then the question may be closed. Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 18:06
  • 9
    That's actually been happening for a very long time. and... over the years, it's become harder and harder to find dupe targets, not easier, suggesting that the increased quantity is adversely affecting the ability to find an answer to your question through search.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 18:08
  • @KevinB I agree with you. Therefore, maybe it would better to simply delete duplicate questions instead of just closing them. When I search on Google, I often stumble upon a duplicate. Perhaps it would have been better for all if duplicates weren't searchable (if not deletion is a viable strategy). Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 18:10
  • 11
    You seem to misunderstand the raison d'etre for duplicates. They are signposts. You found the dupe and not the original question because for some reason it ranked better for the keywords you used in your search. So dupes are useful, both to the one asking the dupe (they get pointed to the answer they need), and for future visitors. Too many dupes, on the other hand, end up building a signpost forest, making harder to find anything.
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 18:13
  • @yivi Thanks for the clarification! I think I was referring to the "signpost forest" you're talking about. Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 18:16
  • 8
    The reason for the "forest", is that too many users answer a dupe instead of searching for a suitable target and flagging for closure. Not enough users focused on curation, too many users focused on gaming the system.
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 18:18
  • Yep, pretty much exactly what i'm referring to as well. I do agree there's some value for signposts, but how do we avoid signpost forest when the standard is don't delete anything that may have some value? a correct answer on a dupe isn't likely to get downvoted, so... it's going to be considered valuable and never removed, even if it's the thousandth one.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 18:18
  • 1
    @Kevin Users like you and me, who have access to delete votes, need to use their judgement and cast them to trim the forest a bit. As it usually is with these things, there seems to be insufficient people willing to do "their bit", for a myriad of reasons.
    – yivi
    Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 18:20
  • 8
    Johan, reading your post, it reads a lot like “I know this isn’t what Stack Overflow is, but… I want it to be something it’s not”…‽
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 18:22
  • 6
    Johann, I think you are labouring under a few misapprehensions. Firstly, we are not "elitist" because we want to be, we are elitist because we have no choice: the number of bad questions and answers posted on Stack Overflow requires more curation than there are people to curate it, and the end result is that curators simply don't have time to hold everyone's hand. Secondly, Stack Overflow is intended to be a high-quality Q&A repository, and most beginner questions are incredibly low quality ones that would easily be answered by Googling a tutorial instead of posting a question here.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 18:27
  • @deceze You are correct. My intentions was not to explain what Stack Overflow is, because there are people that can answer that better than me. My intentions was to give my perspective as a new member to the perception of elitism. Commented Oct 26, 2020 at 20:11
  • 1
    What does "elitist" actually mean? Deliberately keeping someone out (for whatever reason)? Or setting high standards? Commented Oct 27, 2020 at 21:28
  • 2
    There is a huge need for education, and Stack Overflow (the company) ought to expand in that direction to help beginners by building something new (innovate) - or pair up with someone (for more than the usual few months, after which it is completely forgotten). Didn't they once announce some educational video material (not a single one was ever actually published)? Commented Oct 27, 2020 at 21:41
  • 1
    Yes, the SO is elitist, except that the favorized inner circle is no way considerable as an "elite" in any productive sense ;-)
    – peterh
    Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 9:02
-13

The issue is not so much elitism, but a lack of structural inclusions and occlusions.

You can't expect this site to be interpreted and somewhat advertised as an "open to all including new coders" without getting bad questions.

If we define bad questions per Stack Overflow's definition, as poorly structured, clearly without research, etc., then there are a lot of downvotes out there where there should not be.

Take for example my actual profession of HVAC, electrical, etc., Stack Overflow's additional sites are absolutely riddled with terrible uninformed questions about electricity HVAC, etc. that don't even deserve an answer, but yet don't get even close to the downvotes a reasonable question on the coding side gets.

So in reality you need a beginner site and a professional site/access. The current system leaves it impossible for most new people to hold enough credits to even participate in the chat. I gained more information in 1 minute of chat than I did on asking questions. Without spamming or making anyone mad, mind you.

Sometimes because answers seem simple to others are not to all, the usefulness of a question in reality is via perception of the one who asks it. Maybe a question is no longer useful to an experienced user, but it is useful to new people. Usefulness is completely subjective and perceptive unfortunately so it can't be perfect.

Via the blog post, Stack Overflow's perception of pearl vs. sand cannot sustain without some occlusion of the sand. My issue is that the sand can never become a pearl without talking with other sand; many sands combined create pearls.

It seems within reason that the issue is not elitism, but the desire for removal or placement of the new coders/beginner coders to a new separate area free from the perception of competence of the older experienced coders. Let the experienced coders come in to a new area on their own terms and evaluate what they wish. Rather than sticking all the "classes" together. Downvotes affecting privileges also does not quite follow suit with an ability of contribution.

There should be a discernible difference between a downvote for "usefulness" and a downvote for "poorly constructed,lazy, sloppy question".

The latter may be useless of course. However, there is a difference between trying correctly and not trying at all. I can say that people are even afraid to answer or post questions because it's more often than not a flame party. I've seen at least 10 posts in 15 minutes where answers are posted as comments lol really.

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    I will point out that we don't need to push new coders to their own site. (This has been discussed before, btw, I'll see if I can find one of the discussions about separating the new coders from the experts.) I was a brand new coder when I started here. All it took was reading the rules to understand how to write a decent question. My very first question was well received. Beginners and experts alike have a place here. A brand new coder can write a pearl of a question, and an expert coder can write the worst piece of crap question the site's seen. It's not about coding skill at all.
    – Kendra
    Commented Dec 7, 2016 at 17:55
  • @Kendra respecting your opinion, I feel there is a disconnect between the difference of a useful question, a useful to a single user question, a question without research, and a poorly designed question. Referring to other SO sites say electrical for example ive seen people literally teach a class as an answer because the question was so uninformed. On the coding side, now that should not be the case but it is of note that down looking perception is often times your initial reception more often on the coding side. New coder as a hobbyist vs someone starting college is also a bid difference. Commented Dec 7, 2016 at 18:05
  • 1
    What's this about talking sand? Where do I find this talking sand? Also, on a more serious note, I have seen many great questions asked by users who were new to the topic at the time, and I have seen many horrible questions asked by users who were quite experienced with the topic. Asking good questions is not tied to your experience in the topic, but rather to your experience with asking questions. Some people are born with the ability to ask great questions, others must learn by doing. And there is nothing stopping anyone from reading the information we have provided on how to ask questions
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 7, 2016 at 18:34
  • 5
    As for 'There should be a discernible difference between a down vote for "usefulness" and a down vote for "poorly constructed,lazy, sloppy question".' does a question's state of being poorly constructed, lazy, or sloppy not detract from its usefulness? More to the point, how can a post be poorly constructed, lazy, or sloppy and not be less than useful?
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 7, 2016 at 18:39
  • @tinyGrant Ive provided a link for you, I see that openness to opinion as the post is targeted at is clearly not what to expect. I dont think I can explain anything to anyone whom is not willing to contemplate the produced response. You are correct that a poorly described question is in fact not as useful but there is difference as to whom a question is usable to and if it. Also that other Stack sites tend to produce more helpful answers over averaging. Commented Dec 7, 2016 at 18:51
  • I ask what is the purpose of SO. " per the link "That's why we're determined to keep question quality high, even at the cost of refusing a little sand. It's true that you can't have Q&A; without questions, but having the wrong sorts of questions is far more dangerous. The fastest way to kill any Q&A; site is to flood it with low-quality questions." And the definition of Poor question doesn't really seem to have a concrete deff, but a perspective aspect. Having correct perspective can gain more answers much faster hence separation of the sectors. Commented Dec 7, 2016 at 18:57
  • Say you produce a question that is easily answered and can be answered appropriately and follows all of SO guidelines. How do you know how useful it is to others if you cant find an answer for it? you tried right, so you are punished if it is deemed unsuitable for other users, but how could you possibly know what other people struggle with? If you can separate the "class" of questions there may be more empathy towards it. leaving the elite to their high caliber questions only when they wish to help the lower can they visit at their discretion. Commented Dec 7, 2016 at 19:09
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    The idea of splitting SO into a tiered system (whether multiple or just two tiers) has been proposed many times before. As has answering in comments. Perhaps your time would be better spent researching the issues than resurrecting old posts with old ideas? Commented Dec 7, 2016 at 19:36
  • @Mike McCaughan sounds like an issue that just keeps coming up? A description of "old ideas" doesn't really mean anything at all, if not attempted. Its almost like its not wanted then i ask by whom is it not wanted by? Idk ive had my fill of SO it has not assisted me in any real way other than one helpful fellow on php chat. which is the ONLY part I really use anymore. Commented Dec 7, 2016 at 19:42
  • 6
    My name is not tiny grant by the way.
    – user4639281
    Commented Dec 7, 2016 at 19:43
  • 4
    @Andymechanical That's your prerogative, of course. Stack Overflow is specific in its intent and has rules for how it is used. If that intent and those rules do not help you, then it's likely not the place for you; nor does it try to be. Commented Dec 7, 2016 at 19:47
  • @MIke thanks for proving my point :) Commented Dec 7, 2016 at 20:29
  • 1
    I have direct experience with your last sentence. Afraid to post, even when I had good info! Someone else came along and said what I was going to, and got upvoted. My colleagues here ALL of them stay away from asking questions or answering questions on SO specifically because of the elitism. hard to admit, but true.
    – Dan Rayson
    Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 16:45
  • @user4639281 Good point with that you need experience in asking good questions. That is a skill in and of itself. My question would be how would people learn "by doing" as you wrote, if 1) people are afraid of asking a question; and 2) people are required to read the guidelines (reading vs. doing) and get it right on their very first try lest they get hammered with downvotes and harsh comments? Commented Oct 29, 2020 at 0:56
  • "If we define bad questions per Stack Overflow's definition, as poorly structured, clearly without research, etc." - did you try hovering over the downvote button to see how we actually define it? "then there are a lot of downvotes out there where there should not be." On the contrary, we don't downvote enough questions (and we don't close even remotely enough questions), and other Stack sites are worse at it. Commented Apr 22, 2023 at 12:15
-18

I think it's important to notice how little of the commenters on this topic have good self-reflection. In my opinion, they are intelligent and elitist, and they debunk arguments with a high intellectual capacity that can even convince you that perhaps the way you feel is wrong. What lacks though is empathy, understanding and actually listening to the ones that are providing feedback. We can both argue any point to no end—that helps nobody.

This is the issue that the users complain about.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink - in other words, don't let it get to you; you've provided your feedback, but there's not more you can do. And that's okay. Thank you for all the members who stand up for the little guys :)

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    "What lacks though is empathy, understanding and actually listening to the ones that are providing feedback" - no, not at all. We understand the feedback perfectly well. The issue is, the complaint that the community is doing something wrong, comes from people who do not understand the community's policies, do not care about learning those policies, and do not care about the underlying reasoning for those policies. They want Stack Overflow to work like other sites on the Internet, simply because that is what they are familiar with. They have not considered the consequences. Commented Apr 22, 2023 at 12:05
  • 4
    It seems as though you have addressed your answer, not to the community itself, but to some perceived crowd of off-site complainants (perhaps e.g. the sort of people who leave supportive comments on Youtube videos purporting to "expose" the "toxicity" of Stack Overflow, or participate in other such off-site discussion on other social media). I want to make this as absolutely clear as possible: Stack Overflow is not a discussion forum. As such, we have (very high) standards for how questions are written. We do not set a threshold for question difficulty. Commented Apr 22, 2023 at 12:09
  • 6
    A forum-like structure or something like Reddit's /r/LearnProgramming is not what Stack Overflow is. No, not everybody is going to be happy if you allow it to be. You cannot chuck all beginners in one big classroom and let them figure it out between themselves; you're going to need tutors for that. And good tutors who have time and don't get burned out by answering the same questions over and over again are rare. Such a cesspool of (boring, ill-formatted, detail-lacking) beginner questions is not and will never be a substitute for studying. You can't start from zero.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Apr 23, 2023 at 9:59
  • 6
    And please don't call your unmaintainable proposal a "community that listens", as if the community doesn't listen if this proposal isn't realized. People are listening to feedback. People are being notified when their comments are getting vile, which unfortunately happens. There's just a difference between listening and honoring the request. What is being requested (just allowing everyone to ask anything they want) is not maintainable; you will run out of answerers and end up with a graveyard of unanswered questions, or worse: the blind leading the blind.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Apr 23, 2023 at 10:02
  • 6
    tl;dr: you seem to think this site would be a happier place for everyone if there was no quality threshold. I disagree.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Apr 23, 2023 at 10:04
  • 3
    You have to @ping users to notify them off your response when multiple people are present in a comment chain. I interpret your "simple questions" remark as "anything should be allowed", sorry if you didn't mean that. The problem is not simple questions, it's unclear/incomplete/too broad questions that are problematic. No expert wants to answer those, because one fool and so on, and no, finding an interesting question to answer is already hard, let alone finding the proper answer between millions of questions. There is no lack of questions on SO, there is a lack of answerers.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Apr 24, 2023 at 7:17
  • 4
    "I believe a "cesspool" of infinite beginner's questions can help any beginner find his answer as there would be literally an answer to most questions they can think of." You can believe this all you like, but I know it to be false from something like 20 years of experience talking about programming on the Internet and even longer writing code and trying to figure things out. A curated, authoritative reference will beat an ordinary forum environment every time, and so will a proper mentor. The forum tries to be both, and completely fails at both. Commented Apr 24, 2023 at 20:13
  • 2
    "[Stack Overflow was built] on simple questions" - yes; on simple questions that are clear, coherent, focused, and not duplicates - i.e., ones that properly enable experts to expose the material and provide an answer. "It also sells itself as a community that's out there to help everyone" - yes; it does so by having those answers, which requires that level of question quality. Asking the question that you have, in your own terms, simply because you have it, is in fact not aligned with the goal of "helping everyone". Commented Apr 24, 2023 at 20:18
  • 2
    It is a fundamental rule that beginners far outnumber experts in every field; one-on-one mentoring does not scale, which is why in meatspace it is a paid service. Commented Apr 24, 2023 at 20:20
  • 1
    "Because it is true. If there was - newcomers that want to be part of the community wouldn't be shut down, especially in such a harsh manner. There wouldn't be circlejerk posts like these, invalidating the feelings of other people." This is not a circlejerk post and it is not invalidating anyone's feelings. Your feelings on the matter, however, are simply not relevant, and do not change the facts that: 1) Stack Overflow works in a specific way that is not what you want; 2) it is designed to work this way for good, extremely-well-considered reason; 3) we will not change it to accommodate you. Commented Apr 24, 2023 at 20:24
  • 2
    "I proposed that the site satisfies both group of people's needs (e.g. the experts and the beginners) by providing separate outlets." The "separate outlet" you describe is already provided by countless existing sites on the Internet; discussion fora are a dime a dozen. This is one of the few that actually attempt to fill in the vital part that isn't a discussion forum. Speaking of feelings, perhaps you might consider how frustrating it is to not be able to have a single solitary place on the Internet that isn't a discussion forum, without others trying to come in and make it one? Commented Apr 24, 2023 at 20:26
  • 2
    "A large part of the community and newcomers wants this" - and we've listened to them patiently every time, and rejected the proposal every time, for the same reason. None of you ever actually engage with our reasoning; you simply propose that we "aren't listening", and then claim that we misrepresent you by saying that you expect us to just do what you want - except that you provide no reason to believe that anything else would satisfy you. Commented Apr 24, 2023 at 20:28
  • 1
    "It can maintain the quality of the discussions that you enjoy" - that's just it. We don't "enjoy", nor do we seek to maintain, "quality of the discussions", because it is not our purpose to have discussions, because Stack Overflow is not a discussion forum. A Q&A page is, deliberately and by design, not a discussion. The purpose is to answer the question; anything that happens after the answer is supposed to be about clarifying and improving the answer (and the question) - not about solving whatever underlying problem motivated the question (if any). Commented Apr 24, 2023 at 20:33
  • 3
    "yet clearly, many see it as that and really would like it to be like that." - well, they are simply incorrect in seeing it as a discussion forum - this is objective, open and shut, not negotiable. It is exactly as if you wanted to hold a discussion on Wikipedia in the main article space. If you look up en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog, do you want to see people asking questions about whether Fido needs to see the vet? I should hope you don't. However, the price for not seeing such questions, is not being able to ask them. Commented Apr 24, 2023 at 20:38
  • 1
    "I would spend days pondering a complex question, then hours describing it correctly and researching the website to make sure there's no duplicates. When I do post it, it will be marked as a duplicate, and then the proposed duplicate will be of no benefit to me as I have already looked at it and have not found my solution there." If you spent that much time, and couldn't figure out a way to explain pre-emptively why and how your specific question differs from the duplicate, I genuinely don't understand how you expect that anyone could possibly help you with the problem at all. Commented Apr 24, 2023 at 20:41
-19

I pretty much disagree with everyone here. I think Stack Overflow is hugely elitist. "Rejecting poor quality questions." Yep, that's the definition of elitism.

From Google;

elitism /ɪˈliːtɪz(ə)m : noun : the belief that a society or system should be led by an elite. "local government in the nineteenth century was the very essence of elitism"

We use a voting system, and the votes are the elites. People enact the votes, and people enact the elitism. End of story.

Perhaps the proper way to have "good content" for Stack Overflow, is to only allow upvotes, and when it reaches five upvotes or something, mark it as "community accepted question".

Rejecting poor questions means real human people are rejected too. They are worth our time, even if they're dumb AF.

Be nice! In the wise words of Ghandi - "Be the change you want to see in the world." If you've been rejected in the past, you probably know that your question was misinterpreted, or assumptions were made on both sides, and it got into a heated debate. That could been avoided if we were all just more understanding of other people.

15
  • 14
    But Stack Overflow does not aim to help the poor, the sick, and the terminally dumb. It specifically targets the professional and enthusiast programmer" community (*source). If someone then still believes SO is a dumping ground for their homework, they did not inform themselves enough when signing on. And certainly nobody here forced them to sign on.
    – Jongware
    Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 15:10
  • 12
    There is no belief that we are "lead" by an elite. At 125 you can up AND downvote. The bar isn't "super high" to get in the "elite", and there's nowhere where the elites shut down others just to shut them down. The group of people at 125 is growing over time, same with people over 3K (where VTC gets unlocked). How is us making sure we provide high quality content NOT being nice. Your ideas, while good on paper, simply do not work at our scale
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 15:18
  • 16
    "Rejecting poor questions means real human people are rejected too." I don't know about your school system @Dan, but where I'm from, around the age of 16 people are thaught that an idea is not the same as an individual, which is the very basis of philosophy (and any critical thinking, actually). Rejecting an idea, or post in our case, is really not the same as rejecting someone. Sadly, 16 is also an age where it's super cool not to listen and reject everything everyone else says, not unlike what you are doing here. Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 15:29
  • 9
    Looking further into the dictionary: "elite: a select group that is superior in terms of ability or qualities to the rest of a group or society". I don't know about you, but the belief that a society or system should be led by [such a group] sounds like a… rather… good… idea…? I mean, as opposed to the opposite…?! 🤷‍♂️ How's this intrinsically bad, as you seem to imply?
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 15:47
  • 2
    Great responses guys tbh.
    – Dan Rayson
    Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 15:51
  • 2
    Sarcasm is hard to detect lol. Hopefully that was sincere :P
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 15:55
  • 3
    @Patrice Genuinely sincere lol
    – Dan Rayson
    Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 15:55
  • 4
    Glad to hear :). Thx for the open mind then^^ We don't always see that when people come in on meta with some of the views you have in your answer :)
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 15:56
  • 4
    When you start a new job at the bottom, you have to work your way up the ladder. If your performance does not satisfy expectations, you'll generally be shown the door. If your performance exceeds expectations, you'll generally rise up the ladder. If you enter into a business transaction and you fail to abide by the agreement that the transaction is predicated upon, the other party is unlikely to continue with the transaction. Generally, if you break the rules bad stuff happens, and that's not a new concept.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 16:37
  • 2
    I think I was living in a fantasy world where people can always be guided to behave correctly, rather than admit we need the heavy handed negativity of a down vote. Unfortunately, I think some people may indeed still not get passed the negativity, and I think that needs attention. Protect the community, yes, but remember there are real people in that community, and each and every one counts. Even the ones that don't try... I have seen that SO has recently added a "New Contributor, please be nice!" box for seemingly this reason.
    – Dan Rayson
    Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 16:42
  • 2
    Remember that the downvotes also help answerers decide whether or not a question is worth looking at. There's no need for 100 people to see a question that is lacking sufficient information to answer when one person can let the OP know what is missing.
    – user4639281
    Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 16:53
  • 2
    Yes, it would be great if we could solve each and everyone’s individual problems here. But that is really not what SO is meant to do and it’s not the right format nor scale for it.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 16:58
  • 2
    @Dan 100% with you. And we can be nice, but the problem here is the dichotomy between how veterans (who are in tune with how the site is intended to work) see "downvotes".... and how new users, who aren't tuned in yet, see it
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 16:58
  • 8
    @DanRayson: "We use a Voting system, the votes are the elites. People enact the votes, people enact the elitism. End of story." ... what? That doesn't even begin to make sense. Elitism is about people being that "elite" that rule over everyone. "Votes" aren't the "elite" because votes aren't people; how would that even work? Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 17:46
  • 9
    @DanRayson: "Unfortunately, I think some people may indeed still not get passed the negativity, and I think that needs attention." Getting passed the negativity is easy: post good content. Posts do not get downvoted because the poster is new. They get downvoted because they're bad in some way. All of these problems with "negativity" ultimately come from people posting bad content. Commented Nov 22, 2018 at 17:50
-33

I've been told in a comment that downvotes are due to "level" of questions. And any downvote without reasoning comes very much over as elitism. That is almost the definition of the word "elitism" - thinking you're better (so downvoting) others without helping/giving reasons.

It was a simple question in Python of "How do I do X in python-esque style instead of using C-style arrays".

EDIT, to strengthen my argument how else can one explain this downvote? I can't see it differently from an elitist attitude, as I've provided everything for a good question: setup of the problem, showing the big picture - talk about research I've done for several days. And show my thought process (as maybe another way is better)? What else can one expect?

18
  • 11
    IMO that's because you (and others) may be misunderstanding the meaning of a downvote. SO is not a forum. It's a knowledge base. Think of it more as Wikipedia than anything else. Close- and downvotes are not cast due to holier than thou reasons, but because we're maintaining the knowledge base. "The elite" acts on this motive. Is that were the disconnect may be?
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:45
  • It still gives the feeling. Elitism is a feeling/emotion. And like I said - the problem comes when you get repeated down votes without reasons. Or reasons you can't understand "how is it x?"
    – paul23
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:49
  • 13
    "That is almost the definition of the word "elitism" - thinking you're better (so downvoting)" This is wrong. Downvoting primarily means (or should mean) that the downvoter thinks the question is bad (unhelpful/unclear/etc.). It's completely irrelevant to elitism.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:50
  • 3
    Of course the more communication -.-
    – paul23
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:51
  • 5
    There's already so much commentary in place in the system. Nobody wants to repeat themselves endlessly with the same comments. Why do you feel the existing hints aren't enough?
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:51
  • 4
    Many posts have downvotes without any comments.
    – paul23
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:52
  • 9
    Then the downvote itself is already saying something, and likely the question will be closed eventually (and often pretty rapidly) with a canned close reason. Not good enough?
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:54
  • 1
    Just like this post is getting downvoted - in a discussion an opinion should be "removed"?
    – paul23
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:55
  • 5
    Votes on meta express disagreement or agreement; on SO proper they express perceived quality.
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:56
  • 7
    I think in that specific case there are more than enough comments underneath...?!
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:58
  • 2
    I don't understand these "downvotes are because of elitism" comments. Wouldn't that mean that all questions get downvotes? Or all questions by low-rep users get downvotes? How does the elite decide which questions they target in their elitist wrath?
    – JJJ
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 10:59
  • 4
    There are perfectly many questions asked by OPs who are totally novice in Python, and I will gladly give them up votes if the question has some idea. I did answer your question, and after your edit I reversed my vote on it. SO does not want to avenge you or be elitist, but the wording of your original question was quite hostile and was based on shallow research and misunderstanding of the Python programming language. Furthermore, Martijn Pieters who wields the Mjölnir in Python tag kindly advised you that this is a non-issue, but you then added a rant to the original question. Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 11:24
  • 1
    Elitists don't join bandwagons, but I know what you mean. I'm more likely to down vote if it's already gotten down voted, simply because I figure comments already have been made on why it's a weak question. And "level" of question and "quality" can often correlate. But I have seen my share of lazy questions on "how do I get xyz() to use abc in R", so striking down quality is not about punishing inexperience but laziness.
    – Anthony
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 11:34
  • 16
    And for the record, some questions just suck. Don't ask a question that's clearly a vague attempt at screen scraping with a wall of painful code, have triple question marks on every sentence like you're problem is so confounding and finish with "I apologize for my English". Yes, language barriers can make a question less clear, but any experienced SO user knows how to distinguish between messy writing (which some native speakers of English are also guilty of) and questions asked by a sweat shop worker who is looking for a shortcut to generating code that will suck even if we help.
    – Anthony
    Commented Jul 3, 2014 at 11:41
  • 7
    "Elitism is a feeling/emotion" No, it's not... Commented Jul 4, 2014 at 11:59

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