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I have just been banned from review performing a correct response in an audit.

I chose to Reject and Edit in this review task:

audit resp

For posts like these, using Reject and Edit appears to be a reasonable (and correct) approach as it discards the editor's changes and allows you to improve the post, such as removing "Thanks in advance" in this case.

I would like the system to be corrected to not treat Reject and Edit as an incorrect response as well as for my ban to be lifted..

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    Also on Meta.SE: "Reject and edit" failed me in review audit -- why?
    – jscs
    Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 7:35
  • 2
    Erm, wait, you're going a bit to fast for me. You failed a bunch of audits and now you are temporarily blocked from reviewing. And you think the proper solution is to change the system and get the ban lifted. Can you flesh that out a bit? Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 7:58
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    @HansPassant My stance is that the audit system which fails you for "Reject and Edit"ing is invalid.
    – Unihedron
    Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 7:59
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    Hmm, well, the system's stance is that users that fail audits repeatedly ought to take a break. Sounds quite reasonable to me, you didn't sway me much with your reasoning. If you failed all of those audits because if this behavior then you're probably not doing it right. Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 8:02
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    @HansPassant The reject and edit button is a new button that was just added ~ 3 days ago. Rejecting the edit was the correct choice, which he did reject it, but it failed him.
    – CRABOLO
    Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 8:07
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    @HansPassant you're not getting the point of this question. The new system is not functioning logically. This happened to me just right now. I was back to editing after a break and had reviewed some posts carefully without failing yesterday. I reviewed one post & I noticed it's invalid, but there were grammar and punctuation mistakes I wanted to correct so pressing Reject and edit and I got banned for two days because I failed at this only one after the previous break.
    – Neeku
    Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 9:19
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    The tooltip for Reject and Edit says reject this suggested edit and provide a new edit... which appears to be a perfectly valid response and reads to me as reject the edit, then let me edit the original post (else if I was happy with the edit minus a slight tweak - then I'd have clicked improve - which I'd expect to fail me in this case). I expect if you'd just rejected it (it is after all automated vandalism), you'd have passed and been able to edit it afterwards. I'd say that either the button is broken, or it's just misleading as to what it actually does vs implies it does... Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 9:29
  • @Unihedron I've made an answer based on my comment and some further thoughts - I'm thoroughly confused now :( Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 9:50
  • I don't get it. Is it THAT hard to see that it's a random automatically generated audit? By the 10th time you see it, you should learn to just click "Reject" and not bother.
    – Athari
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 0:53
  • @Athari yes ·
    – Unihedron
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 5:25
  • @Unihedron I agree the system is not logically judging. It happened to me recently too... But on the other hand there could always be an argument that you "can't kill two birds with one stone"...This was an obvious audit and AFAIK the correct action always was to reject.
    – user2140173
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 7:29
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    @Athari & mehow But how would one know this is how the new button's logic works? And I think it's a bit awkward to learn what is an audit and what not, to avoid being trapped rather than actually improving posts. Also, I wonder why no diamond users/moderators say anything here.
    – Neeku
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 8:06
  • @Neeku Failed audits just happen and there's nothing to do about it if you review lots of posts. You have to learn it the hard way. Random upvotes on poor posts are a major source of failed audits too, for example. It's much easier to learn the logic behind audits in suggested edits queue than in other queues.
    – Athari
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 9:40
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    @Athari so you really think the solution to this is for reviewers to learn how to work around strange behavior and spot audits, and not to actually fix the system so it makes sense?
    – eddie_cat
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 14:44
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    Thanks for the interests on the topic. Before the discussion gets overly extended, perhaps you can Answer the question with your viewpoint for the community to vote on?
    – Unihedron
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 14:51

4 Answers 4

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The tooltip for Reject and Edit says reject this suggested edit and provide a new edit... which appears to be a perfectly valid response and reads to me as reject the edit, then let me edit the original post (else if I was happy with the edit minus a slight tweak - then I'd have clicked improve - which I'd expect to fail me in this case). I expect if you'd just rejected it (it is after all automated vandalism), you'd have passed and been able to edit it afterwards. I'd say that either the button is broken, or it's just misleading as to what it actually does vs implies it does...

Thinking about it a bit more, if we take improve as accept and edit - which allows a reviewer to tweak the edited post (might be a great edit, just an additional tag, or a slight spelling mistake missed) and immediately get the Community user to accept it, then the reject and edit would also allow a single reviewer to reject an edit...?

So yes - I personally believe you made the right choice but I'm somewhat confused about the exact use/semantics of that button in general now - not just when applied to audits...

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  • I believe both Improve and Reject and Edit has Community user approves / rejects the edit following your binding edit as the edit will then be conflicted; it has to be approved / rejected immediately. That's when the button you hit makes a difference to whether the editor gets the 2 rep points.
    – Unihedron
    Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 9:51
  • @Unihedron there's also the fact that you can uncheck "this edit was useful" in Improve at the time you can edit the suggested edit - at which case I'd argue you'd clicked the wrong button. So I'd kind of expect reject and edit to be like improve (but based on the original post), with and automatic community reject. That's the way it logically makes sense (to me at least) Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 9:57
  • Just curious: Is this actually a feature requested by community members? Where was this change announced? I cannot seem to find such a post on MSO. Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 20:43
  • @JonClements maybe; OTOH maybe 5-10% of the time when I'm improving an edit I change my mind about if I should leave the box checked between when I start and when I finish editing it. Most of those are going from checked to not checked when I realize that the editor missed a lot more than the initial item that I saw that made me click the Improve button. Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 13:07
  • @DanNeely if I see a suggested edit that's not minor and should for whatever reason otherwise be out-right rejected, and is made in what I believe is in good faith (might be missing adding a suitable tag, or might have missed correcting a single typo kind of thing), I let it slide, keep the box ticked, put the changes in that I was going to do (as the suggester has done most of the work I was going to do anyway). I have to admit that I rarely visit the SE queue anymore - by the time I've done research about how suitable an edit is, it's probably already been approved sigh. Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 13:18
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    @JonClements my general checked to not checked workflow ends up looking like, "user fixed 3 problems but I see a 4th (and maybe a 5th), and then 'I'll improve and keep it checked' and immediately click Improve"; then when I click edit and while fixing the one problem I saw before I notice a few more until by the time I'm done I've made 5 or 10 obviousish edits of my own. Mostly this happens with longer posts because I prefer to correct as I find instead of reviewing the entire message in detail and remember every fix and then only make them all at the end. Commented Sep 9, 2014 at 13:25
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When the "Improve Edit" and "Rejected and Edit" buttons were added, it looks like we lost the ability to check/uncheck "the suggested edit was helpful" so it is no longer possible to improve on an existing edit and not reject the original.

  • Improve and Edit allows you to improve on the suggested edit. This behavior is identical to clicking "Improve" and then keeping the "suggested edit was helpful" button.
  • Reject and Edit basically rejects the edit and allows you to edit the original post, not build on the earlier edit. This is completely new behavior as you can no longer build on the suggested edit and then uncheck the "suggested edit was helpful button".

When dealing with the previous implementation, clicking "Improve" immediately failed the audit regardless of what you decided to do with the check box. The logic was suggest edit audits are so bad there is no use in improving them as there was nothing of value to build off of.

When the feature was modified, it looks like SE copied the previous behavior despite the fact that the behavior is different. Clicking "Reject and Edit" is treated the same as clicking "Improve" and unchecking the "suggested edit was helpful" box despite the fact that the behavior is not the same. The only problem is clicking "Reject and Edit" rejects the edit and allows you to edit the original post, not the modified post. As such, this audit behavior is flat out wrong.

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It seems to me that the appropriate way to streamline these audits would be to simply consider "Improve and Edit" equivalent to bare approval and "Reject and Edit" equivalent to bare rejection.

The point of these audits is to ensure that suggestions are being reviewed appropriately. There's no requirement that a reviewer ever edit a post that they encounter in the review queue; what separates "Approve" from "Improve" might be the quality of the suggestion, but it might have more to do with the reviewer. Perhaps the suggestion is both thorough and correct, but misses some small element - a typo, a tag in the title, "Thanks" or other conversational cruft. Such a suggestion should be approved regardless of whether the reviewer adds to it.

The same applies in the case of rejections. Obvious vandalism should be rejected; if the title of the question happens to be "Please help with my problem" or the grammar is terrible or the code isn't formatted correctly, I may or may not choose to correct those other problems in the course of reviewing the suggestion. But with regard to my review of the suggestion, it doesn't matter.

Furthermore, the audit doesn't ever see what I would have added to the suggestion or replaced it with. Maybe all I want to do is add or remove an Oxford comma. Maybe the question ends with something like, "...how can it be done?????" and all those question marks infuriate me; I must delete them before I can continue. Why would an auditor care, provided I've correctly judged the other user's suggestion?

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No, it shouldn't be changed. The system is correct in treating Reject and Edit as an incorrect response in this case.

I don't see a pressing reason for this post to be bumped by an edit if the only thing you come up with is removing the Thanks in advance.

If the reject reason is vandalism or spam, clicking Reject is the only correct response. There was no valid/sensible/educated reason behind the edit, the fact that it appears in the queue shouldn't change that.

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    "If the reject reason is vandalism or spam clicking Reject is the only correct response." Is this so? Reject and Edit would reject the edit immediately such that it would not take another two reviewers' time, as well as passing improvements.
    – Unihedron
    Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 9:58
  • My point is that the post shouldn't be bumped in the first place...it should be as if the event never took place.
    – rene
    Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 10:00
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    I disagree. In this specific case the edit could be too minor, but that doesn't change the fact that audit questions can in principle need improvement. If the suggestion is marked "not helpful" then the audit should pass. In my opinion this is just a bug.
    – user000001
    Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 10:00
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    @user000001 Specific case aside, audits are random sequences of text on seemingly random posts. The system will not know whether the post is worth bumping and passing or failing Reject and Edit responses, based on this new perspective, is questionable.
    – Unihedron
    Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 10:02
  • Will everyone please keep his/her downvotes on this answer and not reverse them because it is discussed in chat with me? Thank you!
    – rene
    Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 15:47
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    Don't worry, I'm keeping mine. Commented Sep 7, 2014 at 15:48
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    I agree: actions you take in the review queue are supposed to be separate from actions you'd take in "the wild." The only thing you should be doing from the queue is Approving, Improving, or Rejecting an edit and I'm not sure why this new option was really even introduced if that's the methodology we're going by.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 1:46
  • @AstroCB The option was already there for a while. It was just implemented as a small check-box. Now it is a first-class action on the review queue (a good thing IMO). Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 20:14
  • @JasonMArcher I know, but that kept the reviewer's edits and merely didn't give them credit for suggesting them. Now, we don't have to option to keep their edits without giving them credit, which is often troublesome when edits are too minor to be worth 2 rep.
    – AstroCB
    Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 20:17
  • Ah, I see. Now you would have to outright reject the edit first. Commented Sep 8, 2014 at 20:19

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