452

This is, more or less, for the benefit of the community at large. Not everyone pays deep attention to the inner workings of Stack Overflow, and it may be disconcerting to some to see moderators are considering a strike (see also Moderation Strike: Stack Overflow, Inc. cannot consistently ignore, mistreat, and malign its volunteers). I figured I would share things from my perspective (as an elected moderator), and not from the broader moderator team (not all of whom are considering a strike). Other moderators may add their thoughts as they see fit.

I should start by saying that the Code of Conduct change really hasn't played any role. The rollout has been known and well discussed amongst all Stack Exchange (SE) moderators for some time now and Community Managers had a community discussion in advance. There has been some speculation this played a role, but the SE moderators I know have not really been bothered by it in any significant way. In fact, that rollout stands in stark contrast to what has happened in the last week.

A history of Artificial Intelligence policy

In late November of 2022, a company called OpenAI launched what we now know as ChatGPT

On Monday, OpenAI announced a new model in the GPT-3 family of AI-powered large language models, text-davinci-003, that reportedly improves on its predecessors by handling more complex instructions and producing longer-form content.

That, combined with the also recently launched AI image generator called Midjourney, sparked what could only be called a frenzy of new uses for AI-generated content. ChatGPT, obviously, was far more impactful to Stack Overflow, because it could answer coding questions. People began to openly game the system as a result

So I started a new stackoverflow account and I am plugging random questions without answers into https://chat.openai.com/chat and pasting the answer. So far, after 9 answers in 1.5 hours it has 1 accepted and 3 upvotes and a reputation of 62...

And later

6 accepted answers, of the 26, 11 upvotes, 5 downvotes. I am not checking the answers in any way. I'll give it a rest for now and see how we do tomorrow...😄

That latter comment (about "not checking the answers in any way") exemplifies the problems the moderation team was starting to see in droves. People were coming out of the woodwork and, in some cases, becoming coding "wizards" instantly. ChatGPT was printing reputation for some people, and that was the point. Thus we crafted a new policy for the site

The primary problem is that while the answers which ChatGPT produces have a high rate of being incorrect, they typically look like they might be good and the answers are very easy to produce. There are also many people trying out ChatGPT to create answers, without the expertise or willingness to verify that the answer is correct prior to posting. Because such answers are so easy to produce, a large number of people are posting a lot of answers. The volume of these answers (thousands) and the fact that the answers often require a detailed read by someone with at least some subject matter expertise in order to determine that the answer is actually bad has effectively swamped our volunteer-based quality curation infrastructure.

This was not crafted solely by moderators. We directly involved the Community Management Team, who were not only supportive, but helped us in many ways to get this new policy driven home to the community at large. These efforts included sharing posting behavior analysis and creating a new Help Center page

Stack Overflow is a community built upon trust. The community trusts that users are submitting answers that reflect what they actually know to be accurate and that they and their peers have the knowledge and skill set to verify and validate those answers. The system relies on users to verify and validate contributions by other users with the tools we offer, including responsible use of upvotes and downvotes. Currently, contributions generated by GPT most often do not meet these standards and therefore are not contributing to a trustworthy environment. This trust is broken when users copy and paste information into answers without validating that the answer provided by GPT is correct, ensuring that the sources used in the answer are properly cited (a service GPT does not provide), and verifying that the answer provided by GPT clearly and concisely answers the question asked.

The broader policy across the network has been that each SE site got to decide its own course of action (here's a list of all site ChatGPT policies). SE declined to make a global policy. Stack Overflow's position has not changed since that time.

Ground Conditions

The moderation team uses many userscripts (JavaScript scripts written and maintained by fellow moderators, and running under tools like TamperMonkey) to aid in moderation. Sometimes we need a tool and we write one. Other times we extend the existing site functionality. One of them lets us craft our own "stock" moderator messages. We wrote one to inform and/or suspend users caught using ChatGPT.

Another userscript allowed us to run posts against AI detectors like Huggingface, which we and other community members used to detect ChatGPT posts. This system turns out to be important to the issue at hand.

If community members flagged a post, and moderators agreed, the user would get a mod message and/or suspended. The volume we handle every day in some cases meant a user would get a suspension for as few as one suspected post. In hindsight, this isn't ideal (and I won't say moderation mistakes weren't made). And, of course, many users would merely dispute the findings without much in the way of evidence (which is a lot of message replies we get). In some cases, those replies would be ignored, commonly because the reply is rude/abusive and evaluated to be frivolous, but in rare cases because the reply was missed (the tooling for moderators in this area is ... poor, particularly as SO's volume). This, in turn, led them to the Contact Us form, and Community Managers (which is the official way to appeal any moderator action).

That brings us to this week.

What we have here is a failure to communicate

The normal method to deal with an issue like this is Community Managers will reach out to us in back channels to question the action(s) taken and/or tell us we need to do something different. We can, and do, reverse course when asked. We're all adults, and the atmosphere in most moderator channels is collegial. We are, at the end of the day, volunteers, not employees.

On Monday (a major US holiday), moderators were informed, via pinned chat messages in various moderator rooms (not a normal method), to view a post in the Moderator Team that instructed all moderators to stop using AI detectors (as outlined above) in taking moderation actions. Had it stopped there, it probably would have not been as controversial as it has been. It went considerably further than that, which meant that moderators were all but prohibited from removing content we suspected was AI-generated. Unfortunately, as the Team is private, I cannot share details here.

The fact that it was private was a problem in of itself, in that we were being told to enact a policy that was not available to the broader community. This also undercut any previously supported community policies without any discussion or even the ability to communicate the policy change. After some sites started making public Meta posts out of necessity, Philippe (Vice President of Community) posted about it on Meta Stack Exchange

In order to help mitigate the issue, we've asked moderators to apply a very strict standard of evidence to determining whether a post is AI-authored when deciding to suspend a user. This standard of evidence excludes the use of moderators' best guesses based on users' writing styles and behavioral indicators, because we could not validate that these indicators are actually successfully identifying AI-generated posts when they are written. This standard would exclude most suspensions issued to date.

This differs greatly from the Teams guidance (which, again, we're not allowed to publicly share given its delivery method). To say we're confused would be an understatement. Worse is that CMs have come into the SO mod room to tell us we were violating the Teams version of rules. The only consistent part of all the guidance we've gotten could be summed up as "Delete/suspend for AI posts, just don't say it's for AI posts". In other words, we basically have to vacate the ChatGPT rule, but without saying we're vacating the ChatGPT rule.

On Thursday, Philippe held a meeting in Teacher's Lounge. He admitted the rule should not have been rolled out like that and explained what has precipitated this urgent change (I cannot comment on this point so please do not ask). Their reasons make sense, and explain why SE Staff (himself included) is currently stressed. But he offered no guidance to resolve the split in guidance, and Community Manager comments after he left seemed to reinforce the Teams version, which is far more restrictive on moderators.

On top of all this was a concern that another proposed (and deeply controversial) change that could be highly impactful to the community at large (and drastically increase moderator work) would be rolled out on top of all this. Per Thursday's meeting, this second change was postponed. It's unclear whether it is permanently shelved or merely delayed to a less stressful time. At this time, given the postponement, we cannot discuss this change, since there are no public announcements for it. It might be moot for this, but it still lurks in the back of the minds of most moderators. It is not, however, part of the current proposed strike.

What do striking moderators want?

There's a number of issues at play. Some of them merely need an acknowledgement and public repudiation. Others need open comment from SE Staff so we have clarity in what we're expected to do.

  1. The ChatGPT rule was a community-crafted and highly supported rule. Staff should not make large scale changes to these rules solely using back channels (chat rooms and Mod Team) that are never meant for public consumption.

  2. Moderators were being asked to handle flags based on a rule that was not public. Indeed, everything on the site still indicates the old policy is still in effect. As such, we were still getting flags that we could not handle consistent with that policy. The community would have noticed that difference eventually. The few moderators who braved posting about the policy change on their Metas before the public announcement were risking their diamonds and/or access to the Mod Team by doing so. That is deeply unfair to moderators. We have had to go to great lengths to not leak private communications, which has compounded our frustration.

  3. Philippe's post poured fuel on that fire with things like

    Through no fault of moderators' own, we also suspect that there have been biases for or against residents of specific countries as a potential result of the heuristics being applied to these posts.

    This sounds a great deal like an accusation of racism. Nobody wants to be accused of that, inadvertent or not. The private Teams post has a better explanation (with metrics) that avoids that conclusion but, again, it's private. Again, I strongly suspect Staff is merely distracted with larger issues, but that doesn't make this any more acceptable. Moreover, this is just one example of where accusations have been levied at moderators in vague ways that are incredibly hard to take as good-faith discussion on the part of Staff. At best, their words are ill-considered. At worst, they reflect an adversarial view of moderators and the community.

  4. Staff has been maddeningly vague on policy (as I've noted, public and private policy differ) and providing instances of what they feel was done incorrectly. They want us to stop using AI detectors as our sole source of action. That's fine and good, but what do we do with someone who posts a dozen (or more) long-format answers in two hours? They're clearly not writing those posts themselves, just bulk answering questions as fast as they can copy-paste them back and forth. Under no policy is this acceptable, but how are we supposed to deal with that? Do we use the new plagiarism tool without direct evidence it was plagiarism? That seems like the wrong tool for the job. Internal guidance suggests removing them as "low quality", but they aren't "low quality" (which is kinda the point of ChatGPT, in that its goal is to make high quality content on-demand). This has resulted in moderators not feeling comfortable in removing these posts and/or issuing suspensions that explicitly say they are violating the ChatGPT prohibition. This is a de-facto reversal of the ChatGPT policy as things currently stand.

In conclusion

SE Staff has come a long way from the great Monica debacle of three years ago. In fact, they've been doing some very good things in this vein (I have repeatedly sung the praises of the Staging Ground project, which has had excellent community-to-staff engagement). It's greatly disappointing that we have, in the space of a week, regressed to a point where Staff is firmly at odds with the community that represents their product. None of the moderation team likes having to threaten a moderation strike to get answers, but here we are.

Moderators involved in the strike have already slowed our flag handling. The official strike starts Monday, Jun 5, unless SE Staff can come back and deal with this in a fair and just manner.

38
  • 25
    This is brilliant, thanks Machavity. I am completely out of the loop on this, but I've spied a few messages here and there that were (inadvertently) missing a lot of history and context.
    – halfer
    Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 13:34
  • 67
    It's somewhat orthogonal to the issue here, but a quick ponderance on volunteerism generally. I derive some pleasure from helping curate on SO, mostly as an editor and a commenter, but I am aware it has become ingrained as an idle habit. I know the corporation behind the scenes doesn't know who the volunteers are - just that there are enough of us daft enough to work for free. I still believe in the aims of Stack Overflow (and it is still the best resource of its kind on the web), but the mounds of rubbish on the site are never-ending, and I do wonder whether it is time well spent.
    – halfer
    Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 13:56
  • 35
    I just feel like further contributions are flowers added to a rotting dead corpse, while the sky is spitting acid on me. Up until a week ago, I had full motivation for curating this site. Now it’s all gone. In a certain way, I kind of hope that this is the end, so we can all move on, and continue our community elsewhere, somewhere that we won’t be regularly harassed by the leadership. All these fights with SE are exhaustive and tiring. They’re demotivating, and bad for our health. Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 14:13
  • 14
    @halfer As a user, and curator, of the site, your voice is more than welcome in supporting those who feel they must take these drastic actions. You are also welcome to join in the strike by avoiding curation activities while the moderators are on strike. Doing so will also help reduce the workload, or at least the backlog, for the site moderators who do not join the strike, if any don't that is. You can declare your intention to join the strike by signing a letter openletter.mousetail.nl as well.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 14:19
  • 16
    Re "starts Monday, Jun 5": Time zones span 26 hours. Is it local time (for each individual moderator)? Or coordinated, like UTC? Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 14:27
  • 10
    @ThomA Work like the devil. They know what this is going to cost them. And even then it's probably, in my thinking, less than it could be in a few months if the AI thing stands as is.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 14:32
  • 28
    Thanks for your insights. I kinda have the same thoughts on things as @halfer. I'm just a "regular" user who is using his privileges to curate the content to the best of his knowledge. But in the last few days, it really dawned on me and there's one question in the room: Why am I still doing this? orporate clearly doesn't give a sh*t, so why should I? This is probably the frustration speaking, but I wouldn't mind letting SE die in a dumpster fire at this point. Time and time again the people volunteering here were let down, so why still bother? That's why I have signed the letter.
    – QBrute
    Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 15:50
  • 28
    @ThomA we burned the flag queue down from around 2000 (ballpark number made public in one of the congratulations posts to the 2022 election results) plus the daily load in a few months. We can do it again. This time the plagiarism backlog is considerably shorter thanks to all the work done in the past months. The flags build-up isn’t nearly a scary prospect compared to allowing unchecked AI crap on the site.
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 16:43
  • 30
    Hi, folks! Thanks for your interest and comments; we do appreciate them. And I know these are troubling times and we're all a bit out of sorts, but I just want to remind everyone that the answer box is down there 🡇. Please reserve comments only for suggesting improvements to the question, not giving your opinion. In this case, even asking questions about things that Machavity says here is probably better done as an answer, in order to keep the discussions more focused and avoid unwieldy comment threads. Thanks!
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 17:12
  • 19
    Lol, 'there is an unrepresentative number of demographic X in jail, this MUST be due to systemic bias against demographic X, no other explanation will be permitted'. Where have I heard that before? Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 17:21
  • 11
    I find it difficult to support mods/CM after Monicagate and finding out that I had become racist/misogynist overnight. Nevertheless, I wiil refrain from posting answers for the duration of the action. Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 17:26
  • 12
    @iBug, being "all but prohibited" means that one is effectively prohibited but the people doing the prohibiting aren't actually calling it a prohibition. "You aren't prohibited from riding my bike, but if you do I'll push your baby sister in to the river." Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 21:45
  • 22
    Honestly, @T.J.Crowder, it's complicated, and the problem is that we mods are trying to communicate to the community the reasons why we're frustrated and driven to the point of striking without revealing specific details of the information that we were given in private and thus ourselves becoming complicit in breaking trust. All I can say is that staff did leave open the door for potentially moderating AI-gen content as low quality, but only if it objectively is, and that's a problem because (A) scale and (B) there's already been pushback on one of us for trying to do exactly that.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 8:33
  • 9
    Reading the recent CEO Update: Paving the road forward with AI it appears the plan is to sell Stack Overflow data for training AI. So you would think this would be a reason not to want the data contaminated with AI generated answers. Otherwise it's just a closed loop system.
    – Yogi
    Commented Jun 7, 2023 at 9:06
  • 14
    @Joooeey To some extent, meta has always played a little fast-and-loose with the Q&A format, especially in the [discussion] tag. Here, the post sets out a topic, and answers can respond to it. Writing it as a self-answered question would make it more difficult for people who aren't those mods to respond. Your concern about not representing the positions of the striking mods is valid, though we've looked through it, one of us edited it to correct some facts, and we can post comments or answers if we have our own positions that differ enough or add enough to merit an addendum.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Jun 7, 2023 at 9:47

4 Answers 4

88

And, of course, many users would merely dispute the findings without much in the way of evidence (which is a lot of message replies we get). In some cases, those replies would be ignored, commonly because the reply is rude/abusive and evaluated to be frivolous, but in rare cases because the reply was missed (the tooling for moderators in this area is ... poor, particularly as SO's volume).

The tooling here is not just poor on the moderator side. The one time I got a mod message, back in 2019, I was caught out by the terrible UI on the ordinary user side, which only lets you send one reply to each message from the mods but gives no hint of this in advance.

It's not at all surprising, given that basically broken UI, that users give short replies! The mod message UI renders like a one-on-one chat of the sort users are used to from other applications like WhatsApp or Facebook Messenger, and naturally we expect to be able to send multiple messages as is the norm in such a UI. But that's not how this UI behaves, and instead if you start by writing "Huh?" and hitting Send, then your chance to write anything more substantial is gone forever.

Worse, the sidebar of every mod message - regardless of what it's about or whether the mod actually intends it as a suspension threat - states that:

Our goal is to amicably resolve issues in a constructive way through direct communication. Please note that continuing to persist in problematic behaviors is grounds for timed suspension.

All this gives the false impression to the user that this is going to be a one-on-one, realtime conversation (basically not true in my case, and probably not in most cases), and also that they may be on the cusp of suspension and need to immediately rebut the accusation against them to safeguard their account, without taking any time to compose their thoughts, or indeed to wait for any anger or alarm they feel at receiving the message - natural responses for anyone who has been unfairly accused of something! - to fade.

(It's also aggravating wording in its own right that probably contributes to mods getting angry responses. You can't tell someone you aim to resolve things with them "amicably" and then follow it up with an explicit threat in literally the next sentence! Only crime bosses in cheesy mafia films are allowed to behave like that!)

Worse still, several small bits of evidence over the years have hinted to me that the non-mod user experience of mod messages is poorly understood by the mods:

  • Back in 2019, the mod who messaged me denied on Meta that they had threatened me with suspension, even though every mod message threatens the user receiving it with suspension - it's right there in the hard-coded content in the sidebar when we view the message! You simply don't have the option of mod-messaging someone without threatening to suspend them.
  • Also back in 2019, at least one mod (from another Stack Exchange site) that I spoke to in Tavern On The Meta had no idea the user-facing UI was deceptive in this way and said that it explained the mystery that had always puzzled them of why so many users waste their one reply without saying anything substantive.
  • Machavity's post here doesn't give much acknowledgement that the "frivolous" replies the mods receive "without much in the way of evidence" are probably often not the entirety of what the user intended to write, but that after sending their first DM they've been unexpectedly prohibited from completing the thought that they were writing.

In the context of staff concern over people being suspended for a behaviour they're innocent of and then reaching out via the Contact Us form, this strikes me as an issue of great importance! People should be able to appeal unfair warnings and suspensions via mod message replies, and this system effectively denies them the chance to do so, leaving them to seek out some other recourse.

There are things that can be done by both staff and mods to improve this state of affairs:

  • Staff: fix the user side of the mod message UI! Either make the UI actually behave like a chat, and let users send multiple replies without intervening mod messages, or else put a warning into the UI that you only get one reply and show a confirmation dialog when the user sends the message.
  • Mods: as long as the point above goes unaddressed in the UI itself, agree a stock warning to include at the end of every mod message you send, warning the recipient that the system only lets them send one reply, and that they should therefore take some time to compose their thoughts before replying.

If - as it sounds like - much of the motivation for conflict here is staff wanting to reduce the number of suspensions and warnings that get appealed to the staff, this seems like an easy win that wouldn't involve lowering our quality standards like the staff's current demand does.

31
  • 46
    "If - as it sounds like - much of the motivation for conflict here is staff wanting to reduce the number of suspensions and warnings that get appealed to the staff..." I suspect not. The cack-handed way SE Inc did this screams "hidden money reasons" to me. Pure speculation, but one can't help but wonder about Microsoft's role in this. MS is a major investor in OpenAI (the non-profit-with-for-profit-subsidiary behind ChatGPT), and a sponsor (I suspect a major one) on the SE network. The public stance against ChatGPT content was at odds with MS's AI strategy. Was a monetary sabre rattled? Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 8:20
  • 33
    I must +1 for 'cheesy mafia films'. "That's a nice account you've got there. Would be a shame if something were to happen to it." Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 8:21
  • 16
    Can you please ask this as as separate question / feature-request? I believe this is breaking away from the particular discussion this question is about. Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 8:21
  • 7
    Not that that means updating the moderation messaging UI isn't a very good idea. :-) Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 8:21
  • 5
    @T.J.Crowder Aha - that theory makes a lot of sense! Given the mention of bias on the basis of country of residence in the question, I suspected the unspecified secret motive being alluded to was that the company was being sued for discrimination by Indian / Chinese / etc users arguing that they'd been profiled on the basis of the country they were contributing from. But your version of events strikes me as more plausible!
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 8:36
  • 6
    @AbdulAzizBarkat Eh, I posted it here because - as I outline in the answer - I thought that it might be an easy technical fix to the main cause of the conflict. Realistically, the staff are never going to fix it unless that was actually correct, so posting a separate question kinda feels like a waste of effort. (Given T.J.'s alternative interpretation, above, I currently guess that I'm wrong and - consequently - that this will never be addressed.)
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 8:40
  • 5
    @IanKemp The specific issue that T.J. and VGR are blaming Microsoft for is very much not one that's been endemic for years; it's this single recent policy, and nothing more. And given that we have been told by Machavity that there are non-public motives for the policy that he is aware of but can't disclose, some level of tinfoil-hatted conspiracy theorising is warranted here. We know for a fact that there are secret factors at play behind the scenes, just not what they are - and there aren't many salient possibilities.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 14:54
  • 12
    @Mark Their theory leaves out the fact that SE's main revenue source hasn't been ads for years; Teams is Stack's prime revenue stream. Proposing that one sponsor has enough leverage over the company to single-handedly pressure them into enacting a wildly controversial policy that overrides community norms for the first time in site history is, to me, frankly preposterous. That theory sounds to me like it's concocted by folks who do not understand how advertising agreements work, and are looking for someone to blame, so excuse my and others' skepticism towards it.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 15:27
  • 6
    I certainly don't blame the tin-foil-hatting of folks given how much we've been left in the dark, but I still think this advertising theory is baloney. There is no way that a moderation policy on Stack Overflow matters enough to Microsoft for it to back-channel leverage its way to forcing the hands of site moderators. Microsoft has way too much else to be concerned about for that to hold water.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 15:35
  • 6
    Mark - One small thing: I'm not "blaming Microsoft" for SE Inc's cack-handedness, that's entirely at their own feet. It's just when the "other" party of a disagreement seems to be behaving irrationally, I think it's good to try to understand the kinds of hidden pressures they may be under. And yes, sometimes a bit of speculation about what those might be is useful. Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 16:08
  • 7
    @IanKemp - Having counted to ten, I'll just say that I hear your concern, but wish you'd expressed it more civilly, and that you hadn't inferred rather more than is present in my comment. I won't go into it further, and wish you well. Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 16:09
  • 8
    @IanKemp You are being wildly rude for T.J.. Even if I were fully convinced of both of your reasons for objecting to his comment - i.e. both that his theory about Microsoft involvement is improbable and that such a theory being voiced will be used as ammunition against the community in some way - it still wouldn't warrant the tone you're using here.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 18:59
  • 7
    @MarkAmery The UI is indeed awful. In fact, some mods were shocked to learn that the UI appears to non-mods as a "discussion" format for back-and-forth at all--they believed/interpreted mod messages as one-way directives.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 22:25
  • 6
    @MandisaW Stack Overflow is protected by Section 230 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 and thus is not liable for any content that is posted on its site.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 22:41
  • 3
    @TylerH If, as indicated in the original question here, the staff believe that mods are discriminating on the basis of geographic location (and thus, indirectly, on the basis of nationality) when issuing suspension - and are actually voicing that belief out loud in public! - then there may nonetheless be a winnable lawsuit here, either in the US or in the UK where Stack Exchange also has a corporate presence. You may have "no legal right" to access pretty much any private business, but if the denial of access is due to a protected characteristic, it's still a tort.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jun 8, 2023 at 7:14
31

Thank you very much for taking the time and writing up all these explanations that give a lot of context to the public. That is much appreciated.

Just to bring the matter forward (a strike should only be a temporary action in order to facilitate some kind of solution, possibly a compromise), it would be good to separate all the involved issues as much as possible. I hope we all can help there.

One issue seems to be possible plagiarism of AI generated content. That should be clarified, i.e. if AI generated content is staying, is it necessary and sufficient to simply cite the generator or what needs to be done there?

Another one is the false positives, that might be difficult to control, especially if complaints aren't followed up all the time. I think it would be helpful if moderators, who know the matter best, make proposals how that false positive rate should be controlled in the future. How should detection of AI generated content ideally look like? What maximal false positive rate are we willing to accept?

many users would merely dispute the findings without much in the way of evidence

I'm not sure what kind of evidence you were thinking of here. I wouldn't know if I were in that situation what kind of evidence was needed. It might be helpful to describe how people should complain about this specific moderator action, what kind of evidence should be presented. It seems like a difficult problem but in this context it must be solved somehow if AI generated content is to remain banned.

I think with the strike putting additional pressure on achieving a better solution, one should also concentrate on actively working towards a compromise. Just waiting for the company to reverse its last decision might not work out if there isn't a better alternative that ideally would take into account all valid arguments.

15
  • 77
    We cannot compromise with staff when they won't even discuss it with us. A compromise is precisely what we've been seeking. We (SO mods) have proposed many different possible approaches, some of which we're 100% in favor of, and others of which we just see as a "lesser evil", but all of which we would accept in lieu of this harmful draconian policy. Staff has taken an absolutely hardline approach, refusing to even reconsider the policy as currently stated (which, I'll note, is still different in public than in private), and that's only on the one occasion they deigned to talk to us.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 3:41
  • 5
    @CodyGray The public doesn't know much about the internal discussions including proposals by the mods how to go forward. We basically have to choose sides a bit blindly. Of course we choose the mods but it may be time to go forward and go public with the proposals. What I missed most from this question here was an alternative to either do it the old ways or do it the company's ways. I think there must be a way to minimize false positives for example. Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 6:32
  • 41
    We don't feel comfortable revealing details about any of our potential proposals when we can't reveal details of the actual problems/concerns cited by staff, since all of those conversations happened in private, and we don't want to follow staff's lead in breaking trust. I know that's frustrating to the rest of y'all who can't read the private chat rooms, and I'm sorry. I already feel like I have been bordering very much on the edge of saying too much in comments and chat. I'm trying to strike a reasonable balance. I'm sorry if you think it isn't sufficiently persuasive.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 8:37
  • 36
    Regarding "false positives", we don't believe there were a significant number of false positives, and staff has yet to present us any cases where they disagreed with our handling of them. The argument they're making is, effectively, that there's no way to know for certain, so there's no way to handle them at all. That is not a position that can lead to compromise. It's not even a reasonable position. There are all sorts of things that can be done instead, but the whole point of the strike is to hopefully bring about negotiations and compromise. Of course there is middle ground.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 8:38
  • @CodyGray-onstrike It's fine. You say what you feel is ok to say and leave the rest to whatever happens next. Yes, it's also frustrating for normal users but mostly means that it's difficult to really understand everything and therefore it's a mix of being affected but also only being an observer of a conflict that plays out partly in the dark. I hope you are continuing negotiating and I personally hope a middle ground will be found. That seems to be all I can say until a breakthrough of some sort is reached and published and then I can start commenting again. Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 10:19
  • 21
    Effectively, SE Inc. is requiring moderators to prove a negative. That's not how ANYTHING works.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 14:42
  • 11
    "We basically have to choose sides a bit blindly" No, we don't really. Moderators are community representatives, elected by community, trusted by community. If it comes by choosing which side I should trust, I will always trust what (multiple) moderators say, over to what company says. Also company has proven track record of withholding and skewing the truth, and moderators that are currently involved in the issue have never done that. Trusting moderators is really easy choice.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jun 6, 2023 at 10:41
  • @DalijaPrasnikar Yes, we do. What you describe is the very definition of choosing a bit blindly. You have faith in the moderators and have no faith in the company. I would actually not expect anything different from any meta user who is here for more than say a month. I'm just describing what happens. Commented Jun 6, 2023 at 10:46
  • 7
    @Trilarion I have faith in the moderators because I know them for years. It is not blind faith., it is informed decision based on their previous actions.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jun 6, 2023 at 11:07
  • @DalijaPrasnikar Sure. But you do not know all the information that is available to the mods and the company as the primary opponents in this dispute, so your trust or faith will not completely be based on actual information. I prefer to know all the details. This lack of knowledge is what I wanted to convey in the previous comment. Commented Jun 6, 2023 at 12:11
  • 3
    @Trilarion When I said that I trust the mods, I am not basing my trust on information that I have available in this instance, because like you said I don't have all information. But mods are saying one thing, SE is saying something else. Based on information I had in previous cases and experience with the mods and SE, I trust the mods. Especially when there are multiple mods saying the same thing. I hope that clarifies what I meant. This is why it is called trust.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jun 6, 2023 at 12:36
  • @DalijaPrasnikar I completely understand where the trust comes from. Interestingly not all the mods are on strike. It may be that most of the mods who aren't striking are nevertheless supporting it but it could also be that there is still substantial support for the company within the mods. Nobody really knows. Commented Jun 7, 2023 at 5:43
  • @Trilarion The most active SO mods are on strike or support the strike. Also my trust in mods is not directly connected with whether they are striking or not. Everyone can have their reason to do one thing or the other. I am also pretty sure that nobody is happy with how company handled AI policy.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jun 7, 2023 at 6:40
  • 6
    There is no support for the company's position within SO mods. We have mods who are actively striking, mods who support the principles of the strike but aren't actively striking for various reasons, and then mods who haven't logged into the site or are otherwise preoccupied with personal matters and thus haven't expressed an opinion. Claims like "nobody really knows" aren't helpful or accurate. Someone knows.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 8, 2023 at 8:15
  • 6
    @Trilarion The flag queue is pushing 2500 unhandled flags. The top flag handler for the last 7 days is Yaakov Ellis, whom you will notice is SE staff. He's handled roughly 200 flags in that time span. No, not all mods are officially on strike, but that doesn't mean we don't have solidarity. Nor has anyone attempted to pressure any mod still handling flags into stopping. If any mod wanted to, they could handle flags today.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 12:25
-61

It could be true that there was bias against users from specific countries and this is sickening to learn. If the suspensions are fair then they should be evenly distributed among all countries. If the data shows that an insane number of users from a country X have been suspended in more than two Stack Exchange sites then someone needs to step in and hold all the mods who suspended the users in that country accountable.

Through no fault of moderators' own, we also suspect that there have been biases for or against residents of specific countries as a potential result of the heuristics being applied to these posts

There is a lot of truth in the post made by the VP of SE, just because they have decided to make the data confidential doesn't mean they are unfair or biased. If the mods are costing you a traffic drop of millions of new visitors then the management needs to step in and tell someone to do his job right.

I support the company because they are concerned that someone is suspending too much that its affecting their profits, when the company is already facing stiff competition from Github and chat GPT. Additional suspensions becomes an internal factor sending users away adding to the already existing problem of stiff competition from Open AI and chat GPT.

39
  • 45
    "If the suspensions are fair then they should be evenly distributed among all countries." Why? This is only true if it can be shown that the behavior of users is identical across all countries. There's no reason to believe that that is true. If there are a large number of users being suspended from Country X, it is not reasonable to rectify this by suspending equally large numbers of users from every other country. Instead of evaluating the justness of suspensions based on the outcomes, we should instead evaluate the justness of suspensions in individual cases.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 7:29
  • 29
    There is so much wrong here, it's embarrassing. 1. Even if there weren't a tendency for some folks in a certain region to exploit the platform more often than others, you are assuming that moderators are looking at a user's nationality to make this decision, or even that they should! 2. The decision from the company was short sighted and will affect traffic in several more magnitudes in the long term. 3. Suspensions are far from fun, you'd better stop presuming that this is all just a game of who upsets the most participants.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 7:30
  • 17
    There is also no evidence provided, nor even is the claim being made, that "mods are costing [...] a traffic drop of millions of new visitors". The numbers are nowhere near this high. No moderator suspends people for fun. Evaluating all the necessary context and agonizing over the decision to make in each case is literally the opposite of fun.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 7:31
  • 26
    I have no idea. I have never once looked at the country a user was from when deciding to issue a suspension. That's how I know that there's no bias. Your country doesn't matter; your actions do.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 7:33
  • 29
    Please see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias to learn what "bias" actually is. Note that moderators have no idea where a user is from, and don't care. Also, you haven't defined "insane", or given any numbers at all, so your claim is vacuous. Finally, ironically, outcome bias is exactly what you've fallen victim to in these accusations of moderator bias. The fairness of the process is what matters. If there's insufficient evidence to issue a suspension in an individual case, then that suspension is unfair, regardless of any other suspensions.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 7:41
  • 8
    Observations like: "There are more suspended users from country X so there is a bias against country X" is a naive observation unless supported by more data. Maybe the reason just might be "There are more suspended users from country X because there are more users from country X" or probably various other plausible explanations. Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 7:45
  • 6
    This feels incredibly one sided. Not doing anything against AI plagiarism will also significantly affect the traffic of people asking, answering and researching on SO. Notably, unlike AI plagiarism these are the things that actually sets SO apart from many competitors. Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 7:52
  • 10
    Let me put it this way. When solutions using generative AI like Chat GPT, Bard, etc. were launched they were initially made available only in specific countries (probably not bias but rather due to other reasons). This means for a period of time these models were more available to people from other countries. This obviously means you'll have more users from those countries suspended for using those AI models (other users probably still can use things like VPN to access them at that time). Would you call this as the moderators being biased? Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 7:53
  • 7
    "If the suspensions are fair then they should be evenly distributed among all countries." Does this take population into account? If there are, for example, twenty suspended users from Pakistan (pop. 250 million) and twenty suspended users from Croatia (pop. 4 million), is that a fair distribution?
    – F1Krazy
    Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 8:22
  • 13
    To complicate things further, what if Croatia just so happens to have ten times more programmers per capita than Pakistan does? I recognise and acknowledge your concern on this topic, but there are more variables in play here than just "if you suspend more users from one country than another country then you're racist", which is what you appear to be trying to say.
    – F1Krazy
    Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 8:24
  • 5
    If that were true (and nobody but staff knows, because those statistics are not available), would your argument be that all moderators on all Stack Exchange sites are racist? Would that include moderators who are themselves from "country X"?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 8:31
  • 4
    I think I have read somewhere that the "problem" is users who use Chat-GPT to improve their English and therefore the bias is indirectly on a country basis. It depends on the number of proficient English speakers and registered SO users and internet users. The link is becoming more and more fuzzy.
    – MT1
    Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 8:32
  • 3
    @CodyGray-onstrike what would be interesting is a similar analysis of a "foreign" language site like Spanish Language or SO in Portuguese
    – MT1
    Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 8:35
  • 13
    No statement with "suspect" and "potential" in it sums it all (sic). Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 8:43
  • 12
    It also speaks loads about this answer that you are so focused on biases from moderators while failing to admit your own biases, nor that AI models have biases of their own.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 9, 2023 at 8:47
-100

Although I fully support the moderator team, we have to wonder why this policy change is coming now.

I'm afraid that AI tools will become unavoidable in the near future:

  • They will improve the quality of their answers.
  • They will become indistinguishable from humans.

Even if this does not reveal to be true in the long term, a lot of people believe it right now.

These AI tools are quickly becoming a serious threat to the whole SE network, not only through the poor quality of (some of) its output, blindly copied by negligent users, but also because they present as a competitor: how many people are now using these tools first, before even performing a search?

SE will only have the choice to embrace them or die. Embracing probably implies integrating these tools directly into SE sites, be it through bots or something else.

My assumption is that this is exactly what Stack Exchange, Inc. is preparing, right now. Maybe it will just be an experiment, maybe they want to keep it secret for now, but anyway, they are not asking for our opinion. As they will deploy that, it will make no sense to forbid AI-generated content on the site, hence the new policy.

Edit: there was indeed such an experiment, as I had predicted!

I don't know whether this policy is arriving too early or not – probably they felt some kind of urgency. But, of course, the main issue is that it is being deployed without discussion with the community, treating moderators like children.

Currently, the quality of AI-generated content is still too low, even though it is often useful, so there must be some middle ground to find – and it must be agreed upon by the majority, especially the mod team, if we want it to work properly.

Let’s hope that the strike leads to a compromise, and a clear understanding by Stack Exchange, Inc. that such unilateral policy changes are not acceptable.

58
  • 90
    'Currently the quality of AI-generated content is still too low'. We are happy to wait until it matches our quality standards, same as any other contributor. Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 18:08
  • 68
    This seems like a commentary on future AI in general, but not really the current situation. How does does this relate to the strike? Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 18:09
  • 42
    IF the quality of AI answers is similar ot humans i wouldn't be striking, and nor would most people. Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 18:17
  • 6
    "They will become indistinguishable from humans." When (if) that happens then SO will be obsolete because AI will be writing the vast majority of code. A few humans will (probably) continue to write code as a hobby, but I doubt that Stack Overflow Inc will continue to exist just for their benefit. But I suppose that code creation won't be totally automated. People will be needed to write prompts for the AI. Perhaps SO will metamorphose into Prompt Engineering Overflow...
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 18:46
  • 16
    I agree that this technology represents an existential threat to Stack Overflow and most of the the Stack Exchange network. But I believe there is a third way. Indeed, embracing non-human content is a pretty effective way to drive askers away from the sites to go directly to the source where those answers are coming from. There will always be a need for human connection and that's one of the advantages AI can never steal from an online community. Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 18:55
  • 7
    “it is often useful”—No, it isn’t. Or do you have data to back that up?
    – VGR
    Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 19:16
  • 40
    Note that the AI-generated content ban policy has always stated that it was temporary, due to the current poor quality of AI-generated answers. Whether AI will become as good as human-written answers in the future is irrelevant to the current policy.
    – reirab
    Commented Jun 4, 2023 at 22:45
  • 12
    "AI tools will become unavoidable in the near future" We'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Imho, that future isn't nearly as "near" as some people seem to think. Not even close.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 8:12
  • 6
    add generated content to an archive site is stupid. Specially most of these generated content is produced using stackoverflow itself, and so "IA" will use its own content to future training, this will blow itself in recursion of non sense answer. Keep generated content outside normal operation of SO is not only better for SO but even for the training of such tool. chatGPT is not intelligent.
    – Stargateur
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 9:45
  • 6
    "...my feeling here is that there is something deeper that SE is preparing". I believe the only way they can make their new CoC work is if they get rid of sites like mine where 'AI' generated false information can literally be dangerous and ruin lives. There are several Stack Exchange sites which might be said to qualify under that kind of umbrella.
    – ouflak
    Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 12:35
  • 13
    If I wasn't on strike, I'd have cast a del-vote on this. I am not trying to be harsh, but have to point out that we are on strike right now, not in future. And speculations about quality of future AI doesn't actually resolve any issues and undermines the concerns that we have right now, nor it makes the case for what has been done by SO (Speculations: we all know AI and LLMs are getting better, but to what extent, only time can tell). Commented Jun 5, 2023 at 18:49
  • 6
    Put another way: Not every meta post that exists that briefly mentions AI needs an "AI is replacing SO" answer. We get it. We see it every day, it's irrelevant to the discussion we're having on this question.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 6, 2023 at 20:02
  • 8
    @user13267 Read the comments above. It's a baseless speculation on what the future holds, and has nothing to do with the current situation.
    – Passer By
    Commented Jun 7, 2023 at 5:36
  • 6
    What do you mean you "don't get the downvotes"? There are at least a dozen people explaining in the comments why they disagree with the answer. Those are the reasons for the downvotes. No one said he's not allowed to state his opinions.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 7, 2023 at 7:25
  • 11
    "They will improve the quality of their answers." You are kind of missing the point that in order for an AI to provide good programming answers, it must be trained on something. There is no magic involved, the AI cannot get better without human input. And as it happens, there aren't a lot of other credible programming resources elsewhere online to train it on. Now, if AI generated content is fed as input to the AI, then it will get stuck in a recursive loop where it gets worse with every iteration, not better. And from there both SO and the AI will get worse.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jun 7, 2023 at 9:51

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .