Timeline for What has happened to lead moderators to consider striking?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
32 events
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Jun 12, 2023 at 19:12 | comment | added | TylerH | @Hulk Discrimination based on national origin is prohibited by Title VII, although this isn't a case of an employer discriminating against employees, or even a case involving employees at all. And Nationwide Mutual Insurance v. Darden (1993) strongly argues that volunteers don't have standing to sue for discrimination under Title VII if the employer ever did discriminate in such a way. Though I digress... | |
Jun 12, 2023 at 19:10 | comment | added | TylerH | @MarkAmery Not considering standing, and just looking at the merits, no specific moderators have been named or identified, nor has any specific case of discrimination been identified to weigh whether the statement is factual or not, let alone any of the moderators suffering reputational damage because of the statement. In other words, none of the several standards for defamation have been met even if that is what the company meant/intended when they said that part. | |
Jun 9, 2023 at 12:11 | comment | added | Hulk | @MarkAmery I'm pretty sure that geographic location is not a protected characteristic, and arguing it is used as a proxy for nationality would make a lot of large companies that use geofencing to determine the services they provide in a given region very... unhappy. Still, IANAL. | |
Jun 8, 2023 at 7:14 | comment | added | Mark Amery | @TylerH If, as indicated in the original question here, the staff believe that mods are discriminating on the basis of geographic location (and thus, indirectly, on the basis of nationality) when issuing suspension - and are actually voicing that belief out loud in public! - then there may nonetheless be a winnable lawsuit here, either in the US or in the UK where Stack Exchange also has a corporate presence. You may have "no legal right" to access pretty much any private business, but if the denial of access is due to a protected characteristic, it's still a tort. | |
Jun 8, 2023 at 1:14 | comment | added | Ryan M Mod | @TylerH Plenty have tried. They've lost, of course. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 22:37 | comment | added | TylerH | @MandisaW No user has ever sued a website for unfair moderation practices, to my knowledge, because matters of Terms and Conditions for voluntarily using a site are, well... pretty ironclad in favor of the operator. You have no legal right to use a site like Stack Overflow, so there is no remedy that a court could provide for being denied access to it. Certainly no one has ever sued a website for unfair moderation practices and won. You raise that case in court and your case will be dismissed. Probably with prejudice. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 22:33 | comment | added | TylerH | @MandisaW I'm not sure what you mean by Section 230 being "under challenge" (if you mean in the courts, that SCOTUS case is settled), and a site's internal moderation policies are covered under Section 230 as well. The only requirement is that companies respond to and make reasonable efforts to comply with legal requests to remove infringing content when notified of it. It's also not that hard to comply with DMCA takedown requests at scale; most sites do so by just taking down everything that gets a DMCA request against it, which is safer than vetting requests manually and getting wrong. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 21:29 | comment | added | MandisaW | @TylerH Section 230 is under challenge, but it applies to published user-provided content, not the site's internal moderation policies. Notably, it wouldn't preclude lawsuits around unfair/biased suspensions based on faulty accusations of AI use. The protection from liability also requires DMCA-takedown compliance, which would be difficult if we can't tell gen-AI answers from human ones. | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 7:45 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @zcoop98 - My understanding is that MS's value to SE is not just ads: resources.stackoverflow.co/topic/client-stories/… But my main point was a hidden financial motive (MS or otherwise), rather than SE Inc having a genuine concern about people appealing suspensions as suggested in the answer. | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 7:42 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @TylerH - Sure, that also makes sense. I'm not quite following you with how much SE is worth to MS financially (the important factor would be the other way around, I'd think; and/or how much AI is worth to MS), but it's really not important. Microsoft was one possibility, given the direct AI connection, but just one. My main point is a hidden financial motive being the underlying cause of their behavior, rather than a genuine concern about people appealing suspensions as Mark was suggesting in the answer. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 22:41 | comment | added | TylerH | @MandisaW Stack Overflow is protected by Section 230 of the Telecommunications Act of 1996 and thus is not liable for any content that is posted on its site. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 22:33 | comment | added | MandisaW | Other monetary possibility is that SO content is part of the intake of either existing or future/planned gen-AI tools, and so the folks in charge are walking a tightrope between making the community happy (esp mods), and keeping the door open for future "investment/partnerships", i.e. theft of all that free labor. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 22:30 | comment | added | MandisaW | @T.J.Crowder Could be legal reasons, not [just] monetary. By actively moderating suspected AI-generated content, esp via "detectors", SO takes on a certain liability for both the content that passes muster, and any resulting suspensions. Not a lawyer, but that's my read. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 22:25 | comment | added | TylerH | @MarkAmery The UI is indeed awful. In fact, some mods were shocked to learn that the UI appears to non-mods as a "discussion" format for back-and-forth at all--they believed/interpreted mod messages as one-way directives. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 22:24 | comment | added | TylerH | @T.J.Crowder I think it's a foregone conclusion that a monetary saber was rattled here, though I doubt it was Microsoft doing the rattling. Stack Exchange network (including Stack Overflow) is not even peanuts to them, financially... maybe peanut dust at best. More likely this is Prosus investors wanting to set the direction for their $1.8 billion plaything that they as yet have been largely unable to "play" with. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 19:39 | comment | added | VGR | @IanKemp I look forward to being proven wrong, when all of this is made public. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 18:59 | comment | added | Mark Amery | @IanKemp You are being wildly rude for T.J.. Even if I were fully convinced of both of your reasons for objecting to his comment - i.e. both that his theory about Microsoft involvement is improbable and that such a theory being voiced will be used as ammunition against the community in some way - it still wouldn't warrant the tone you're using here. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 18:23 | comment | added | Ian Kemp | @T.J.Crowder This isn't about me, you, or our egos. This is about the future of the Stack Exchange community. And unsolicited, unsourced, untrustworthy, unhelpful speculation like yours is exactly the kind of thing that is going to be used as ammunition against this community. So please, for all that is holy - stop. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 16:09 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @IanKemp - Having counted to ten, I'll just say that I hear your concern, but wish you'd expressed it more civilly, and that you hadn't inferred rather more than is present in my comment. I won't go into it further, and wish you well. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 16:08 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | Mark - One small thing: I'm not "blaming Microsoft" for SE Inc's cack-handedness, that's entirely at their own feet. It's just when the "other" party of a disagreement seems to be behaving irrationally, I think it's good to try to understand the kinds of hidden pressures they may be under. And yes, sometimes a bit of speculation about what those might be is useful. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 15:35 | comment | added | zcoop98 | I certainly don't blame the tin-foil-hatting of folks given how much we've been left in the dark, but I still think this advertising theory is baloney. There is no way that a moderation policy on Stack Overflow matters enough to Microsoft for it to back-channel leverage its way to forcing the hands of site moderators. Microsoft has way too much else to be concerned about for that to hold water. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 15:27 | comment | added | zcoop98 | @Mark Their theory leaves out the fact that SE's main revenue source hasn't been ads for years; Teams is Stack's prime revenue stream. Proposing that one sponsor has enough leverage over the company to single-handedly pressure them into enacting a wildly controversial policy that overrides community norms for the first time in site history is, to me, frankly preposterous. That theory sounds to me like it's concocted by folks who do not understand how advertising agreements work, and are looking for someone to blame, so excuse my and others' skepticism towards it. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 14:54 | comment | added | Mark Amery | @IanKemp The specific issue that T.J. and VGR are blaming Microsoft for is very much not one that's been endemic for years; it's this single recent policy, and nothing more. And given that we have been told by Machavity that there are non-public motives for the policy that he is aware of but can't disclose, some level of tinfoil-hatted conspiracy theorising is warranted here. We know for a fact that there are secret factors at play behind the scenes, just not what they are - and there aren't many salient possibilities. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 13:35 | comment | added | VGR | @T.J.Crowder Thank you, I was starting to think I was the only to whom that was obvious. It absolutely screams money reasons. And Microsoft is the most obvious culprit by far, given their ongoing feeble attempts to monetize their crappy AI bot. And doesn’t have Microsoft also have a Stack Overflow Teams presence? | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 8:40 | comment | added | Mark Amery | @AbdulAzizBarkat Eh, I posted it here because - as I outline in the answer - I thought that it might be an easy technical fix to the main cause of the conflict. Realistically, the staff are never going to fix it unless that was actually correct, so posting a separate question kinda feels like a waste of effort. (Given T.J.'s alternative interpretation, above, I currently guess that I'm wrong and - consequently - that this will never be addressed.) | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 8:38 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | @MarkAmery - Ah, yes -- that would be a hidden money reason too. So who knows? :-) | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 8:36 | comment | added | Mark Amery | @T.J.Crowder Aha - that theory makes a lot of sense! Given the mention of bias on the basis of country of residence in the question, I suspected the unspecified secret motive being alluded to was that the company was being sued for discrimination by Indian / Chinese / etc users arguing that they'd been profiled on the basis of the country they were contributing from. But your version of events strikes me as more plausible! | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 8:21 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | Not that that means updating the moderation messaging UI isn't a very good idea. :-) | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 8:21 | comment | added | Abdul Aziz Barkat | Can you please ask this as as separate question / feature-request? I believe this is breaking away from the particular discussion this question is about. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 8:21 | comment | added | Donal Fellows | I must +1 for 'cheesy mafia films'. "That's a nice account you've got there. Would be a shame if something were to happen to it." | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 8:20 | comment | added | T.J. Crowder | "If - as it sounds like - much of the motivation for conflict here is staff wanting to reduce the number of suspensions and warnings that get appealed to the staff..." I suspect not. The cack-handed way SE Inc did this screams "hidden money reasons" to me. Pure speculation, but one can't help but wonder about Microsoft's role in this. MS is a major investor in OpenAI (the non-profit-with-for-profit-subsidiary behind ChatGPT), and a sponsor (I suspect a major one) on the SE network. The public stance against ChatGPT content was at odds with MS's AI strategy. Was a monetary sabre rattled? | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 7:54 | history | answered | Mark Amery | CC BY-SA 4.0 |