Timeline for What has happened to lead moderators to consider striking?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
62 events
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Jun 20, 2023 at 16:57 | history | edited | Didier L | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 59 characters in body
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Jun 20, 2023 at 1:27 | history | edited | Didier L | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Added link to actual AI experiment performed by SE staff on SO
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Jun 9, 2023 at 17:52 | comment | added | Security Hound | @PassionateSE -I have reviewed lots of contributions generated by a LLM, I have not found a single one, that could be considered to be helpful. In order to get a LLM to generate code, that is helpful, the individual using the LLM must be already able to answer the programming question. Which begs the question, if the author of an answer is able to generate the answer themselves, why don't they just generate it themself? A former Microsoft Windows Engineer filmed a great video on YouTube on this subject, while he was able to get a LLM to generate quality code it took his own knowledge to do so. | |
Jun 9, 2023 at 17:24 | comment | added | user16612111 | @SecurityHound, maybe but it generates quality output that some users find beneficial in some specific programming contexts. Of course its not perfect, so are all tech devices made by humans. | |
Jun 9, 2023 at 17:20 | comment | added | Security Hound | @PassionateSE - I would provide you examples of the content that I have flagged in another community of mine, to say that the current version of OpenAI that ChatGPT uses, generates complete and total garbage would be an insult to an actual pile of garbage. OpenAI in its current form is unable to answer complicate questions, that detail descriptions, which is of course required for a human to understand and answer a question. One common ultimate to the garbage that OpenAI (ChatGPT) is generating, is that it will pick up on details within the question and start randomly talking about it. | |
Jun 9, 2023 at 8:57 | comment | added | PM 2Ring | Let us continue this discussion in chat. | |
Jun 9, 2023 at 8:56 | comment | added | user16612111 | @PM2RING, yeah that explains it but it's a more android (chat GPT) knocking off Symbian(SE) it's perch. Let's wait and see. Time will tell | |
Jun 9, 2023 at 8:54 | comment | added | user16612111 | @PM2RING, will they ever recover from this, can chat GPT make SE obsolete? | |
Jun 9, 2023 at 8:50 | comment | added | PM 2Ring | @Passionate It's not clear what you're trying to say, but I suspect that you are saying that SE Inc is worried by the drop in people posting questions and answers since ChatGPT was released. However, numbers have been dropping for years, for a variety of reasons, ChatGPT has just accelerated that. | |
Jun 9, 2023 at 8:24 | comment | added | user16612111 | @PM2Ring, but did you know that its making SE employees to not sleep at night because of the compeitition. | |
Jun 9, 2023 at 8:21 | comment | added | PM 2Ring | @Passionate If you seriously believe that GPT is better, I strongly urge you to spend more time learning how GPT actually works, and why it has the limitations that it does. I suggest starting here: writings.stephenwolfram.com/2023/02/… | |
Jun 9, 2023 at 6:39 | comment | added | user16612111 | it is time for humans to admit that AI is better, AI is the new deal. I told everybody that GPT is better and then they downvoted my post and turned me away. Now its costing someone millions of traffic drop because they didn't forward my warnings to the right team. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 18:22 | comment | added | Kevin B | needed the upcoming changes many years ago, now it's probably a bit late after people have left/given up. We already know more changes are on the way. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 18:18 | comment | added | Kevin B | I don't disagree that they're probably preparing something, but i doubt it's literally implementing a GPT-like answer generator. Some of the biggest barriers for users using this platform has always been people try to use it like a help desk when it isn't designed to be one. I expect future updates to generally lower the quality standards of the platform through changes in access to privilages (things like voting/closing) and tweaks to costs to further skew toward more content receiving upvotes. I don't however expect these changes alter why people are leaving, we ... | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 18:09 | comment | added | Didier L | Anyway, that's not really the point of my answer. The point is that SE seems to be preparing something, whether we want it or not. I agree it is speculation, and I understand that people don't like it. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 18:07 | comment | added | Didier L | @Holger people will go to where it's easiest to get an answer, ChatGPT allows you to get an answer without doing a search, so it even beats FGITW! I was actually thinking about it more today, if SO would generate an AI answer (as a community wiki with proper disclaimer) automatically for questions (maybe not for all tags), it would resolve both the FGITW problem and the current AI issue (what would be the point of posting an additional, almost identical AI answer?), and people could focus on improving those answers or tackling the more advanced, interesting questions. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 11:16 | comment | added | Holger | “how many people are now using these tools first, before even performing a search?”—So you’re assuming that finally, users will do their own research before coming to Stackoverflow? | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 9:51 | comment | added | Lundin | "They will improve the quality of their answers." You are kind of missing the point that in order for an AI to provide good programming answers, it must be trained on something. There is no magic involved, the AI cannot get better without human input. And as it happens, there aren't a lot of other credible programming resources elsewhere online to train it on. Now, if AI generated content is fed as input to the AI, then it will get stuck in a recursive loop where it gets worse with every iteration, not better. And from there both SO and the AI will get worse. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 8:47 | comment | added | user13267 | @MisterMiyagi I never said anything about anyone's motivation, I stated I don't agree with all the downvotes, regardless of whatever justification people are giving here for them. I don't agree with most of said justifications either. I know I'm free to disagree whether the answer matches the topic or not, and I stated I do. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 8:30 | comment | added | user5349916 | @user13267 "So he's supposed to have posted something agreeing with OP" The very comment you replied to clarified that's not it. Feel free to disagree whether the answer matches the topic or not, but please refrain from alleging there would be a different motivation when people have gone to great lengths to state what their motivation is. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 8:15 | comment | added | user13267 | @MisterMiyagi So he's supposed to have posted something agreeing with OP? Some users are threatening to strike, he is trying to give his understanding of why stackoverflow might have taken the decision, that lead to the said threat of strike. Even has a note of support at the end, hoping that this will lead to SO understanding unilateral policy changes are not acceptable. I don't see why that is deserving of this many downvotes. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 7:49 | comment | added | user5349916 | @user13267 It means the answer should be part of the discussion topic of this meta Q&A, not some other topic. The strike is not about a hypothetical future AI performance and policy regarding it, so literally 90%+ of this post misses the topic. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 7:38 | comment | added | user13267 | @CodyGray-onstrike + Passerby Why is this downvoted so much? = I disagree with the downvotes. so participating in the same discussion means he has to just post something that agrees with whatever the OP is talking about? Whatever justification people may be giving here, it doesn't deserve all the downvotes it is getting. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 7:25 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | What do you mean you "don't get the downvotes"? There are at least a dozen people explaining in the comments why they disagree with the answer. Those are the reasons for the downvotes. No one said he's not allowed to state his opinions. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 7:23 | comment | added | Passer By | @user13267 The "nothing to do with the current situation" part is why it's downvoted: it doesn't answer the question, even if this might be a reasonable answer to another question. Answer, as in, participating to the same discussion, since this is meta. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 7:14 | comment | added | user13267 | @PasserBy I've read the comments. He's allowed to state his opinion. Don't get the downvotes | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 5:36 | comment | added | Passer By | @user13267 Read the comments above. It's a baseless speculation on what the future holds, and has nothing to do with the current situation. | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 5:12 | comment | added | user13267 | Why is this downvoted so much? | |
Jun 7, 2023 at 4:34 | comment | added | Clonkex | It's worth noting that you cannot look at current trends and extrapolate with certainty. That's literally trying to predict the future, and we all know how well that turns out. So yeah, maybe AI tools will continue on the current trend and reach the point of actually being useful and reliable, but maybe we're nearing the top of the S-curve of progress and they won't get much better. It's impossible to know. Personally I tend to think they can't get a whole lot better because of how they work, but who knows. | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 20:18 | comment | added | Kevin B | This answer more or less paints the entire issue here as if it's some us vs ai, when in fact it's no where near that clear. The whole point of SO is to have long-standing useful answers, copy pasting answers from GPT without knowing whether or not they're correct misses the point entirely and diminishes the value of the network as a whole. That is what we're fighting against. If people want to go to chatgpt to ask their questions, that's fine. It only becomes a burden when that drives the company to make decisions that get in the way of the community's goals. | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 20:02 | comment | added | Kevin B | Put another way: Not every meta post that exists that briefly mentions AI needs an "AI is replacing SO" answer. We get it. We see it every day, it's irrelevant to the discussion we're having on this question. | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 19:58 | comment | added | Kevin B | effectively, it's stating an opinion that noone can effectively discuss because it's an answer on a question where the opinion doesn't belong. There's no room here to dispute it or offer alternatives, it's not in any way answering the question asked. It's likely already been posted in full on the "we're banning AI Generated Answers" post. | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 19:09 | comment | added | Brock Brown | @KevinB I'm really trying to understand because I think it's important, why do you feel it's irrelevant? MisterMiyagi says that it's because it feels like it's a general commentary on the future of AI, do you feel similarly? | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 18:24 | comment | added | Kevin B | Noone said speculation wasn't ok; When and how (and if it's already the case) SO becomes irrelevant simply isn't relevant to what happened that lead to moderators considering a strike. We aren't as a group anti-AI, rather, we care for the quality and success of the community (which in some cases may differ from the company's monetary needs) | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 18:22 | comment | added | Brock Brown | @KevinB The strike happened because of the mismanagement. Speculation is okay, this is a discussion | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 17:48 | comment | added | Kevin B | Again, that’s just speculation and not relevant to the strike. | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 17:36 | comment | added | Brock Brown | @KevinB What Didier is arguing if I interpret it correctly is that the mismanagement happened because Stack is trying its darnedest not to become obsolete. In my own wild speculation, Stack didn't see room for negotiation on that front because there's a general disdain from SO users for any notion of AI replacing programmers. Many of SO's users have been doing programming for a living for years. It all boils down to livelihood. Stack wants to live as long as it can while simultaneously avoiding the discussion of it possibly being a contributor to a serious, measurable loss of programming jobs. | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 16:54 | comment | added | Kevin B | While the strike is ai related, ai improving and rendering so obsolete is not relevant to stack’s mismanagement of the policy being rolled out. | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 16:47 | comment | added | Brock Brown | @KevinB From what I understand, the fact that Stack refuses to negotiate the AI related policies with mods is a major reason why the mods are striking. I think it pierces the heart of the discussion. | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 16:31 | comment | added | Kevin B | @BrockBrown it's simply not relevant to the discussion. | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 16:28 | comment | added | Brock Brown | Underrated answer, can't believe you got downvoted into oblivion like that, completely undeserved. You showed proper respect for the mods, you're just speculating on what Stack's motives might be, I feel like that's allowed. Don't shoot the messenger guys. | |
Jun 6, 2023 at 15:04 | comment | added | ggorlen | "They will improve the quality of their answers." and "They will become indistinguishable from humans." -- we're nowhere near these situations! ChatGPT answers are painfully obvious and extremely low-quality at the present time. Sure, someday AI might replace humans, but if that happens, there'd be no need for SO anyway. Either way, it's best just ask the AI tool if you want an AI answer and refrain from posting it on SO. After AI overruns other sites, remaining a resource for human expert knowledge is the best possible value proposition in the circumstances. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 21:58 | history | edited | Didier L | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Tried to clarify my line of thoughts
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Jun 5, 2023 at 18:49 | comment | added | MDoubleDash | If I wasn't on strike, I'd have cast a del-vote on this. I am not trying to be harsh, but have to point out that we are on strike right now, not in future. And speculations about quality of future AI doesn't actually resolve any issues and undermines the concerns that we have right now, nor it makes the case for what has been done by SO (Speculations: we all know AI and LLMs are getting better, but to what extent, only time can tell). | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 14:48 | comment | added | Ian Kemp | @Cerbrus It's the people who think least who "think" that true AI is close. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 12:35 | comment | added | ouflak | "...my feeling here is that there is something deeper that SE is preparing". I believe the only way they can make their new CoC work is if they get rid of sites like mine where 'AI' generated false information can literally be dangerous and ruin lives. There are several Stack Exchange sites which might be said to qualify under that kind of umbrella. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 9:45 | comment | added | Stargateur | add generated content to an archive site is stupid. Specially most of these generated content is produced using stackoverflow itself, and so "IA" will use its own content to future training, this will blow itself in recursion of non sense answer. Keep generated content outside normal operation of SO is not only better for SO but even for the training of such tool. chatGPT is not intelligent. | |
Jun 5, 2023 at 8:12 | comment | added | Cerbrus | "AI tools will become unavoidable in the near future" We'll cross that bridge when we get to it. Imho, that future isn't nearly as "near" as some people seem to think. Not even close. | |
Jun 4, 2023 at 22:45 | comment | added | reirab | Note that the AI-generated content ban policy has always stated that it was temporary, due to the current poor quality of AI-generated answers. Whether AI will become as good as human-written answers in the future is irrelevant to the current policy. | |
Jun 4, 2023 at 21:01 | comment | added | Didier L | @HolyBlackCat this should be part of the policy consensus: some kind of disclaimer or maybe a visual separation… But if you fully separate them, it should still be possible for users to improve those answers, and somehow integrate them back with the rest once curated. | |
Jun 4, 2023 at 20:58 | comment | added | Didier L | @MisterMiyagi, one of the conditions to end the strike is to retract the policy change, so it is absolutely a fighting point of this strike. My answer tries to show that a policy change is unavoidable, and a compromise must be found. I didn’t propose anything specific as I didn’t want to narrow the discussions too much on that. I feel like Trilarion expressed it better than me though :) | |
Jun 4, 2023 at 20:58 | comment | added | HolyBlackCat | Even if you want to embrace the AI, the generated content has to be explicitly separated from the user-generated content. | |
Jun 4, 2023 at 19:46 | comment | added | user5349916 | @DidierL At least to me, it seems like only part of the third paragraph ("the main issue is…") vaguely applies to the strike situation. Integrating AI or not is not a fighting point of this strike, so not sure what to make of the first two paragraphs. And I'm not sure what the last paragraph actually tries to say, especially not if those are intended to be statements of fact or just points for discussion. Of course, I might just be misunderstanding what you were trying to say – feel free to edit the answer to clarify your point. | |
Jun 4, 2023 at 19:16 | comment | added | VGR | “it is often useful”—No, it isn’t. Or do you have data to back that up? | |
Jun 4, 2023 at 18:55 | comment | added | Jon Ericson | I agree that this technology represents an existential threat to Stack Overflow and most of the the Stack Exchange network. But I believe there is a third way. Indeed, embracing non-human content is a pretty effective way to drive askers away from the sites to go directly to the source where those answers are coming from. There will always be a need for human connection and that's one of the advantages AI can never steal from an online community. | |
Jun 4, 2023 at 18:46 | comment | added | PM 2Ring | "They will become indistinguishable from humans." When (if) that happens then SO will be obsolete because AI will be writing the vast majority of code. A few humans will (probably) continue to write code as a hobby, but I doubt that Stack Overflow Inc will continue to exist just for their benefit. But I suppose that code creation won't be totally automated. People will be needed to write prompts for the AI. Perhaps SO will metamorphose into Prompt Engineering Overflow... | |
Jun 4, 2023 at 18:18 | comment | added | Didier L | @MisterMiyagi I am trying to find an explanation for what lead to this situation. The last two paragraphs are directly linked to the strike. This is a discussion, isn’t it? | |
Jun 4, 2023 at 18:17 | comment | added | Starship-On Discussions Strike | IF the quality of AI answers is similar ot humans i wouldn't be striking, and nor would most people. | |
Jun 4, 2023 at 18:15 | comment | added | Didier L | @user1937198 me too, but my feeling here is that there is something deeper that SE is preparing, and they are not waiting for that. They, themselves, fear that if they don’t do it now, they will miss the train, and it will be too late. | |
Jun 4, 2023 at 18:09 | comment | added | user5349916 | This seems like a commentary on future AI in general, but not really the current situation. How does does this relate to the strike? | |
Jun 4, 2023 at 18:08 | comment | added | user1937198 | 'Currently the quality of AI-generated content is still too low'. We are happy to wait until it matches our quality standards, same as any other contributor. | |
Jun 4, 2023 at 18:05 | history | answered | Didier L | CC BY-SA 4.0 |