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So I just asked a question earlier, and it got 2 downvotes and very few views.

I got -4 rep from the downvotes and +2 from accepting an answer, so at the cost of only 2 rep I polluted (according to the downvoters) SO with a bad/unsuitable question.

When push comes to shove and I have no other way of finding my answer, I find -2 rep to be a very small price to pay for just getting the job done.

Shouldn't downvotes lower rep more so that they are a more effective anti-motive to that way of thinking?

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    Well, most people who don't care about asking bad questions likely wouldn't care if they lost 100 rep for each downvote. They likely have very little rep to lose at all.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 20:33
  • 12
    @Servy: I guess it works for answers as well, and answerers tend to be more "in it for the rep". People might be more willing to clean up/ delete their crap if they got more of a punishment through downvotes. Admittedly, I've been contemplating the same thoughts as the OP's for a while now. In terms of downvoting answers, you also have to think about the -1 the downvoter themselves loses.
    – Matt
    Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 20:36
  • 8
    @AnPel: I think you're getting the downvotes you so craved for, now you linked to that answer in your question ;).
    – Matt
    Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 20:40
  • 31
    Yet so many people feel the pain of -2 downvotes as if you stabbed them with a fork. Or they certainly react like they did. Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 20:43
  • 12
    Downvotes don't sting with the rep loss. If you receive enough downvotes you get blocked from posting. Much worse in my opinion.
    – user000001
    Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 20:43
  • 1
    @Matt yeah I knew posting the link here would be a downvote magnet, but still, I could not keep going without getting an answer to that question, so some loss is acceptable. Plus you can always delete the question and get your rep back if I'm not mistaken
    – ppp
    Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 20:44
  • 1
    Re. "you can always delete the question and get your rep back" If you want to speed your progress toward a question ban, go for it! Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 20:51
  • 4
    @ThisSuitIsBlackNot this question ban sounds like an extremely good motive for people to just get a 1 rep account just for asking their "gimme teh codez" questions
    – ppp
    Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 20:54
  • 9
    I read this wrong. I thought you were saying that casting a down vote should cost more. That, I'd agree with. There'a been a massive abuse of down votes against completely answerable questions for several months; down voting itself should be reviewable. Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 21:04
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    @StevenFisher Just because a question is answerable doesn't mean it shouldn't be downvoted. The tooltip for the downvote button says "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful." It does not say "This question is unanswerable" (that's what close votes are for). Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 21:38
  • 7
    @StevenFisher Just because it can be answered doesn't mean it should be answered. For example, "What programming language should I learn?" is perfectly clear, but is certainly not on topic for SO. Also, you completely ignored the first part of the tooltip text. Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 22:10
  • 7
    I am fairly certain that at some point someone will downvote something I did just to get me back for something I said somewhere. Even this comment counts as a potential trigger. For that reason, I would not recommend downvotes be an extra form of punishment. You'll create a toxic environment. Go into a Sub-Reddit, find out the 'hive' culture for that sub, and then post something contrary but otherwise respectful, researched and non-aggressive. You'll quickly find that 'downvotes' are used for for more than just 'quality' control. To be clear: People rarely upvote for bad reasons. Not so down.
    – BSAFH
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 2:34
  • 2
    @MartijnPieters I don't think people really get upset when they get -2. What's generally frustrating is when you get a downvote and no one gives you the slightest indication regarding what may be wrong with what you've written.
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 10:32
  • 1
    @Bruno: Sure, it happens. Try to not take it personally and move on. So how is increasing the penalty going to help there? Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 10:34
  • 2
    @Bruno I was trying to be clear, but I really wasn't. :) I think questions where the intent is clear, and the answer is specific and not opinion based should be fine, even if they're not worded as well as they could be. I see attempts to close these as "unclear" all the time. (I don't think down voting is appropriate, either. Leave it or edit it, your choice.) On the other hand, things that are opinion based should be closed because there's no good answer to those. Clearer? :) Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 15:35

8 Answers 8

59

Maybe.

I neither accept or reject your proposal, but I would like to point out that it does not really matter. The vast majority of bad questions are from people which do not really care about reputation points, most likely because they are not familiar with the concept on the site. They simply have a problem and want it to be fixed. That is also the reason why you see so many questions which are not fitting (way too broad, asking for examples, asking for tutorials, fixing code requests, ...) to the way SO works.

Whether we punish these users slightly more or not is most likely irrelevant, because rep is not their motivation. It is, however, important to give them some sort of feedback and this is the negative rep they get. The bright red notification clearly indicated you did something wrong - But if it says "-1", "-2" or "-100" does not mean much to a low-rep user.

The only case where there would be a difference is similar to yourself. A user with a bit experience on the site and a general understanding (lets say > 500) about how it works. Only these people care about reputation and might ask bad questions, and they would be affected by the increased penalty.

To prove my point, I tried to get the number of closed questions grouped by the reputation points: Number of closed questions grouped by reputation points So as you can see, there is a gigantic spike at the 1-reputation point of the closed questions. For reference and labeling, I provided Jon Skeet as reference on the scale (I used all my paint skills!) on the far right of the x-axis. As mentioned above, the 1 reputation users do not care at all about how many negative reputation points they get.

The same data visualized with a log log scale to make it actually much more useful and visible (thanks to @MichaelT for creating this graph).

enter image description here

Please be aware that the query and graph are not strictly corresponding of what I am arguing above. The reputation of the user is the current reputation, not of the time of asking the closed question. So most likely, a graph using the reputation points at the time of posting the question would even indicated more into the direction that most closed questions are asked by low-rep users.

Here's a similar plot using data on closed questions by rep level at the time the question was created (data is provided by @Shog9♦)

Copy of Closed questions by rep at the time of question creation

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    While it might not matter on questions, it makes a huge difference on answers.
    – enderland
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 13:13
  • 7
    @enderland I agree. However, I think bad questions are much more of a problem than bad answers. Also, people tend to do much less downvoting on answers than on question due to the -1 for downvoting an answer.
    – dirkk
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 13:22
  • 1
    @dirkk the log log version of the data is kind of neat and lets you see more in the 0 .. 10 and 0 .. 100 range. There's also a 'blip' in there that is visible when you look at the numbers. Rep 200 is the first double digit close count which continues until 300 rep where it jumps back up to triple digits and remains so until about 500 rep. i.sstatic.net/EaMYC.png
    – user289086
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 14:51
  • 1
    @MichaelT Thanks for the plot! I thought about doing that myself, but was to lazy to do it (the above is the standard visualization within the data tool, unfortunately there is no log scale available). The blip in there is quite interesting, would love to know the reason for it.
    – dirkk
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 15:10
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    @dirkk here's a better version i.sstatic.net/5KXtw.png (grid lines, smaller dots) if you want to pull the image into your answer. Also makes the 200-300 rep slice even more prominent and interesting.
    – user289086
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 19:13
  • 7
    Talked it through on the Whiteboard. Its the association bonus. If you go from 199 rep to 200 on SO (as your only site) you get a +100 bonus (association bonus applied to all sites). However, if you have the association bonus from another site and ask on SO, you can get in the 200-300 range. Furthermore, you're likely a more knowledgeable SE user and less likely to ask closeable questions. There's still some thoughts that need to be done about that, but thats likely part of the story.
    – user289086
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 19:27
  • A better graph for this would likely be mean(open/total) for all users at that rep to account for (what is also) the fewer users who are in the 200-300 range and thus have fewer closed questions too.
    – user289086
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 19:32
  • I think that the logarithmic scale chart rather disproves the thrust of your argument. Whilst there is clearly a negative correlation between number of closed answers and reputation, those with 100-1000 rep (and therefore, following your logic, presumably people who understand/care somewhat about it) have still asked tens to hundreds of questions that were closed.
    – eggyal
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 8:40
  • @eggyal hmm, I wouldn't say so. First, I think 100 rep is a bit too low, but this a difficult argument. An important factor is, that as said above the rep points reflect the current reputation, i.e. what is now 1000 was probably ~300 rep points on average at the time of asking. So yes, the argument can't really be proven by this point, simply because the data is not good enough. But I would also like to add that you can see that the correlation between bad question/rep points is nearly log log, so having more rep points significantly decreases the chances someone asks a bad question.
    – dirkk
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 8:45
  • @MichaelT One could also get into the 200-300 range by loosing reputation or by offering a bounty. At least it might be possible that folks who get their questions closed for any reason are also people who loose reputation.
    – Daniel
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 16:30
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    Axis labels guys!
    – jmiserez
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 16:58
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    Too much speculation; here's data on closed questions by rep level at the time the question was created, including deleted questions: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/… cc @MichaelT
    – Shog9
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 23:17
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    Nice answer, +1 for the John skeet reference. Made me laugh. I would give you another for your paint skills.
    – DaveM
    Commented May 6, 2015 at 21:01
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    @Shog9: I've plotted the data.
    – jfs
    Commented Aug 2, 2015 at 23:17
  • I feel like this data needs to be normalized by the amount of people at each level of reputation as well as the amount of questions asked per user to obtain something like "% chance of question being closed per reputation" instead of this, which says very little. Realistically, reps should also be grouped into qualitatively similar groups (90k-110k for example)... The fact that people around 100k are spread between rep levels with insignificant changes make them look a lot better in these graphs.
    – Svj0hn
    Commented Aug 3, 2015 at 11:31
38

Yes, I completely agree. When an answer has received 4 downvotes and 1 upvote, the poster getting 2 reputation points is a little ridiculous. Maybe it could just be double the amount as questions so -4 for answers and -2 for questions since upvotes already work like that.

Having a 5:1 ratio for downvotes:upvotes simply encourages rep hunters and is why so many people are able to get away with answering bad questions. Hopefully this would reduce it.

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    There is a proposal to remove gained rep on questions that eventually close. I think that will be an effective way to reduce rep-hunting; not sure where that proposal is these days, however.
    – halfer
    Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 22:20
  • 2
    Maybe you mean this: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/260104/… - not really a proposal though.
    – Anonymous
    Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 22:52
  • I don't have a reference to hand, but it's been referred to several times around Meta.
    – halfer
    Commented Jul 22, 2014 at 22:53
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    @halfer That seems an awful thing to do. Many questions get incorrectly closed or get reopened after an edit. Also, some closed question still may have very good answers, especially duplicates. Often the duplicate has new/better answers than the old question. In such cases they answers do deserve the rep. If such a mechanism takes place we should make merging duplicates much easier so that such good answers get the reputation they deserve.
    – Bakuriu
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 10:43
  • 8
    What do you mean by 'get away with answering bad questions' - what's wrong with answering bad questions at all? Maybe we should stalk people who invested their time providing a good answer to the bad question and point with a finger? Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 10:44
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    @Boris In my opinion, people who answer bad questions are just rep hunters. A close vote/flag would be much better.
    – Anonymous
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 10:46
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    @Anonymous The point of stackoverflow is creating a compendium of answers for programming questions. Even if a question is 'bad', if one can reasonably answer it in a useful manner, he/she should absolutely answer it. Sure, we encourage better asking behavior in our users, and yes we edit and improve as needed, but at the end of the day we're trying to help the OP and future users solve their problem. There's even a gold Reversal badge encouraging this behavior.
    – nbrooks
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 11:01
  • 4
    @nbrooks Yes, but the point is closed questions should not be answered: duplicate: answer is already somewhere else | unclear: nobody can really answer it | opinion based: opinions won't be helpful to future users | off-topic: future users will think that they can get an answer for questions that do not relate to the site at all. But, if you want to answer a too broad question, go ahead.
    – Anonymous
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 11:09
  • 7
    I think people avoiding answering a question because it "may be seen as a bad question" will create a snobbish and draconian attitude among answerers, and be off putting to new people who don't understand what a 'bad question' is. Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 13:24
  • 3
    @user3791372 This would be true if users would unintentionally answer bad questions (such as very new users). However, in the vast majority of cases I encounter, I am convinced that people know they answer a terrible question which will be closed shortly, just in the hopes to score some rep points. And I think such behaviour should be discouraged.
    – dirkk
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 19:22
  • @nbrooks: the reversal badge has only been awarded 184 times. That shows how difficult it is to give a good answer to a crappy question.
    – ninjalj
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 9:20
  • 2
    @ninjalj I agree it can be more difficult to formulate a good answer when operating with imperfect information from a bad question. But I don't think it's fair to say that statistic proves "how difficult it is to give a good answer...". I think that just proves "how difficult it is to have your answer become extremely popular, and get 20 upvotes". Many of my best answers have 0/1 upvotes, whether accepted or not. I will agree that a better question is likely to be better promoted, allowing for more votes on answers; that's probably one of the factors in this badge being so rare.
    – nbrooks
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 11:01
  • @Anonymous so someone makes a question, I answer it. Few years later it gets edited by one user, then closed by another as off topic a few days later. I now get penalised for "answering a bad question" as a result in your scheme. Doesn't sound like a good idea...
    – jwenting
    Commented Aug 19, 2014 at 10:06
  • @jwenting If the question is old enough, it shouldn't be closed unless absolutely necessary. So, in that case, the close voters would have made a mistake. But, maybe there could be some need for the question to be closed recently after being asked to qualify.
    – Anonymous
    Commented Aug 19, 2014 at 10:33
18

How much rep you'll lose for asking a bad question has much more to do with how many SO-users will look at the question rather the amount you lose for a single vote. Do not make the mistake of assuming that this is where it ends, your question is now permanently recorded and will not be automatically removed. It will continue to receive downvotes when somebody encounters it, perhaps while browsing Google hits, if you don't do anything about it.

Excessive punishment has never been a great motivator, the receiver will prefer to just turn his back to escape it. Which is rather counter to what ought to be done, getting you to pay attention and improve your question.

And do keep in mind, if you continue to ask bad questions and don't fix existing ones then the site will turn its back on you. You'll get banned from asking questions again.

8

I disagree with the idea of making the repercussions worse, simply because someone who cares about SO and their rep feels the pain of a downvote simply because they don't like having asked a bad question, or added a bad answer. The recognition of their faults is bad enough.

For those who don't care, it doesn't matter. So you're only really making life worse for the people who genuinely care about improving which seems besides the point.

What I do agree with is that it seems wrong that 2 downvotes are contradicted by 1 upvote. However, instead of loosing more rep for a downvote wouldn't it be more fair to change the reward of an upvote to counteract a single downvote if you have 'outstanding' downvotes? That way a question that receives two downvotes and one upvote would have a net loss of -2.

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    Quite a good idea, so basically rep = score * 2 when score is negative, and score * 10 when score is positive? Seems fair to me
    – OGHaza
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 14:23
  • 1
    @OGHaza - Pretty much. It does have the rather unfortunate side effect of positive score questions loosing more rep from a negative vote (because they're effectively loosing an upvote), but I still think it's fairer over all. Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 14:47
  • 3
    That's not a bad idea. I must admit trying to "correct" the sign of the balance is a factor when I'm undecided. (Let's say there's an answer I wouldn't necessarily vote on either way, but it is visibly correct and with a negative score, I'd try to bring it back to 0 at least.)
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 17:28
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    @Bruno please vote based on your own opinions, not other people's. Or go and read meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/253383/…. Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 19:51
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    @DavidWallace I do. To be clear, it's only when I'm initially hesitating. It probably happened no more than 5 times as far as I'm concerned. Are there no questions where you've hesitated between upvoting or not voting? I'm just acknowledging that this may influence a bit my decision, consciously or not. Anything where where there's a split as proposed in this question would make it more conscious.
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 20:23
  • 2
    @DavidWallace Independently of the votes that counteract downvotes, do you never see an answer that you think is rather useful, not great, and maybe think "OK, it has a score of +X, but probably doesn't deserve much more", so you don't necessarily upvote it?
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 20:27
  • 1
    @Bruno I try not to look at the number of existing votes. Basically, for any answer, I try to decide - is this answer worthy of my upvote, my downvote, or no vote from me. To be fair though, an answer is probably more likely to catch my eye if it already has an unusually high number of upvotes or an unusually high number of downvotes. It makes me think "what's so special about this answer", where "special" could mean "especially good" or "especially bad". Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 20:38
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    @DavidWallace I don't disagree in principle, but not having any bounds on the rep has some side effects: there's much more incentive in answering a popular question (which may require a lower level of expertise) than there is to answer a more detailed question that requires far more expertise. Massively upvoted questions distort the whole "reputation" mechanism in this case. For example, you got 101 upvotes here for an answer that could be found reading the doc for valueOf, yet I'm sure you've answered harder stuff too getting you fewer upvotes.
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 20:56
  • @Bruno what you say is true (although I like to think that the value in my 101 vote answer is in the clarity of the explanation, not in the information itself). It's often really hard to know which questions will be popular. However, are you saying that you would downvote that answer, just because you don't feel it deserves 101 net votes? Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 21:04
  • 1
    @DavidWallace no, I only downvote answers that are incorrect, misleading, or sometimes suggesting solutions with security vulnerabilities. I just refrain from upvoting if I feel it's already very highly upvoted. I don't think sending a negative signal (however small) to an answerer just because they happen to be popular is useful to anyone. (As an high-rep answerer, I don't care about getting -2 for a downvote, but knowing why there may be something wrong is more important. I'm always happy to be corrected. I wonder why you got -2 votes on that answer, especially with only positive comments)
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 21:18
  • 2
    @Bruno Thatnk you for making my point for me. Someone with high rep will not care about losing rep for downvotes, but someone just starting out will care a whole lot. Further, knowing why the question or answer is not useful is more important than simply being repeatedly poked with the stick.
    – Jon
    Commented Aug 6, 2014 at 18:28
5

I don't really care how much downvotes reduce rep by, but in their current state they may as well leave everyone rep the same.

Why? Because downvotes end up affecting rep of those who actively moderate the site (the voters, rather than the votees) more than anyone else's.

Looking at my vote stats I've probably downvoted around 400 answers, that means I've lost 10% of my rep by downvoting answers even though almost 100% of votes against me are upvotes.

So I could have never downvoted anyone, have 33% of votes against me be downvotes, and my rep - by far the most prominent indication of the quality of my contribution - would be the same.

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    I think the reason there is a small cost for downvoting is to prevent abusive downvotes. Otherwise, some people would probably just go around downvoting whatever answer they feel they don't quite like or understand, without there being anything wrong with these answers. (There is unfortunately a category of people who like to express their frustrations on whatever they can get hold off, more so if they can do it anonymously.)
    – Bruno
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 17:43
  • Perhaps, but what are rep points good for, besides down votes and bounties? And you can't spend points on a bounty for 2 days, so it's worthless when you want an answer in a hurry. Again, the whole rep thing is "pointless" (once you have enough points to comment and edit stuff).
    – Hot Licks
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 3:47
  • @HotLicks "power" and "recognition". More rep points -> more power to moderate things (close votes etc.) and more swagger (lookie here, I've 100k rep, bask in my awesomesauce). Not everyone cares about those things, but way too many people do.
    – jwenting
    Commented Aug 19, 2014 at 10:10
  • @jwenting - I agree that far too many people are anxious to collect rep, but it must be awfully empty lives they lead.
    – Hot Licks
    Commented Aug 19, 2014 at 11:34
2

I would argue against increasing downvote penalty as asked.

IMO, if we are actually "voting" for an action/move, i.e. if an question is a motion to be or not to be passed, then, maybe downvotes and upvotes should have equal weights, and one upvote in an answer/question shouldn't equal 5/2.5 downvotes. In that case, the cost for downvoting and upvoting should also be equal (e.g. both costing 1 point to vote).

On the other hand, if the criterion was based on merit/effort, which in reality often reduces to "I (dis)agree or even (dis)like" what's said in the post, then it is often harder to get upvotes than getting downvotes.

Also, getting downvotes does not necessarily mean that your question/answer is bad, or polluting SO. It could be that your opinion is against the prevailing opinion in SO. For example, if you ask why is not downvoting penalty higher, you are likely to get higher upvote count. If you ask why certain features in SO, software or a programming language can't be changed, you are likely to get higher downvotes than upvotes.

In general, my sense is that downvotes and upvotes are not votes to pass a motion and should NOT be treated equally. Asking a good question or making a good answer is a constructive process, which is harder than making criticisms.

0

Well of course downvotes should come with a greater impact on reputation.

It's ridiculous that in terms of reputation, one upvote cancels out five downvotes - both on questions and on answers.

It's equally ridiculous that downvoting an answer costs half as much rep as it penalises the respondent, as it removes the incentive to apply downvotes.

Downvotes on an answer should be worth at least -5. Maybe -2 or -3 for a question.

10
  • The focus seems to be on questions where down voting is free, to prevent poor quality posts bubbling to the top and getting more views. Answer however don't get showcased on the home pages, so there's less incentive to stop people viewing them other than those answering the question. I guess down votes in this case carry a penalty so people answering don't simply down vote each others answers to make there's more popular, it'd just be tit for tat and un-productive.
    – Tanner
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 12:36
  • I'd like to assume that Stack Overflow isn't populated with kindergarteners. Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 12:37
  • 1
    What is it they say about assumptions?!
    – Tanner
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 12:37
  • 4
    People who are active and regular contributors to StackExchange need to get over the "my precious rep! I can't downvote!" attitude.
    – enderland
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 13:15
  • 2
    "it removes the incentive to apply downvotes". There /should/ be a disincentive to apply downvotes! You should have a bloody darn good reason to penalize someone besides simply not finding a question worded to your particular liking.
    – Jon
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 13:28
  • 1
    down votes are essentially a help to stack overflow moderators. Why should the users be penalised for helping moderators? Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 13:28
  • If you feel that something isn't right, why should you feel afraid to stake your name and rep on pointing it out? It's the anonymity and lack of accountability that is not helpful.
    – Jon
    Commented Aug 6, 2014 at 18:22
  • @user3791372 they are now, to a degree. If you remove the penalty to the downvoter they become a popularity contest even more than they are now ("xxx has more rep than me, let's downvote bomb him with all my dozen accounts so he gets below me again" is a common way of thinking on sites where downvoting has no consequences for the downvoter).
    – jwenting
    Commented Aug 19, 2014 at 10:12
  • @jwenting so... the system's broken. Down voting helps moderators which in turn helps the site owners to produce a better site which brings more visitors which sells more ads which makes the site owners more money. And we, the conscientious people, have to then work from the bottom of that description upwards to get more rep to then help the moderators which in turn... Commented Aug 19, 2014 at 11:29
  • @user3791372 yes, the very idea of downvoting "costing reputation" and upvoting "giving reputation" leads to the system becoming a popularity contest. Let there be no rep involved at all, and require a comment explaining the reason for the downvote (which also logs the name of the downvoter for the world to see) and ditto for upvotes. That way people think twice before hitting those buttons, as now there's real effort involved, and no "reward".
    – jwenting
    Commented Aug 19, 2014 at 12:06
-14

I don't care for the whole notion of the anonymous downvote. There are many times when a question is asked and the poster is looking not just for an answer, but for a little education. Sometimes, it is hard to understand the problem enough to formulate a proper question, hence what some may interpret as "vagueness" or "badness". Simply downvoting or commenting "Your q is too vague" is not helpful to the poster's understanding, but it may help keep SO a "site of the elite", where newcomers are not welcome thanks to the tomfoolery of the elders.

If you wish to downvote, it should be accompanied by the downvoter's name (there should be no reason why you cannot assume responsibility for your action) and a good reason why you are downvoting... overly general "too vague" reasons are not good enough.

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    So instead of answering answerable questions, people would spend their entire time explaining why the non-answerable are non-answerable. And what is the benefit for the site? Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 14:18
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    This doesn't appear to have anything to do with the question.
    – OGHaza
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 14:20
  • 1
    Also consider that downvotes are not much to signal something to the asker than to the rest of the readers. It may mean: "don't waste your time on this question, I did already and it's hopeless." Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 14:20
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    @DanielVérité If you are too lazy or disinterested to spare a few moments to inform a user as to why you are downvoting their question, then move on to a question that better whets your appetite.
    – Jon
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 17:08
  • @OGHaza Au contraire, mon ami, it has everything to do with the original Q. We are discussing the merits of downvotes and the elephant in the room is assigning ownership of and explanation behind a downvote. Seems many folks simply want grand downvoting powers with no accompanying responsibility.
    – Jon
    Commented Jul 23, 2014 at 17:10
  • 2
    absolutely agree - this place is becoming an elitist faction allowing people to hide behind their pc's and impose their personal frustrations on to others - i don't know how many times I've read a comment from an established user stating a question is too vague. I don't really understand what they expect - the poster has come in search of knowledge - often trying to tackle a problem they are not so familiar with - these people seriously need to sort it out
    – Biscuit128
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 8:41
  • The idea of removing anonymous voting has been discussed to death in a bajillion other MSO questions. If you wish to discuss the merits of such a proposal I would suggest you move to a thread where such a thing is the focus of the question.
    – awksp
    Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 14:48
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    Nope. Downvoting is not some criminal punishment that must be justified and applied only after due procedure. It's a quick way to thumb questions up or down for the information of their author and potential readers. It's nice for the person being downvoted to know exactly who dislikes their question and exactly why, but it's nicer for the site to let people get on with rating things. The most common reason I downvote without commenting is that someone has already said the reason I'm downvoting. Don't make me fill SO with "me too" comments. Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 16:25
  • That said, I'd be cautiously in favour of experimenting with making both up and downvotes non-anonymous. Naturally there's a fear that it would feed the trolls and ragers. If someone is behaving badly then I'd prefer to warn others away without engaging them or giving them my name, thanks very much. But if there's net benefit from sacrificing that in favour of openness then OK, give it a whirl :-) Commented Jul 24, 2014 at 16:29
  • @SteveJessop: It's more that just nice, it's rather essential for questioners to understand what is wrong with the question. If too vague, state why..the question might not appear very vague to the asker (who, if they were an expert on the subject, presumably wouldn't need to ask the question in the first place).
    – Jon
    Commented Jul 29, 2014 at 14:29
  • @Jon: you're speaking as if the choice is between "downvote with comment" or "downvote without comment". I think frequently he choice is between "downvote without comment" and "no feedback at all". As such, I don't think the comment is essential at all. Especially when the questioner already has criticism of their question. Actually I think the spectre you raise of bad question with downvotes but no explanations from which the questioner can improve, rarely happens. Forcing each individual downvoter to comment is a waste of their time. Commented Jul 29, 2014 at 15:21
  • ... besides, if if the question is all that bad there'll be a close reason for the questioner to consider too, which at least is some explanation what's wrong with the question. Commented Jul 29, 2014 at 15:26
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    @SteveJessop Another point: "when the questioner already has criticism of their question" If the questioner has already received a critique, then there is no further need to continuously hammer them (the, "Me too" mentality) with downvote after downvote, further eroding their rep. One downvote and associated rep downgrade is enough. Downvotes should not be used as clubs to punish users, but, rather as pointers to improve , if you're the questioner, or ignore, if you are a potential answerer.
    – Jon
    Commented Aug 6, 2014 at 18:16
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    @Jon: you're mistaken (or anyway have a very minority opinion) as to the primary purpose of the downvotes. The idea is that the more people there are who think the question is bad, the lower its score should be. Therefore everyone who thinks the question is bad should downvote it. The downvote is nothing to do with clubs, punishment, or improvement (although if there's a comment that would help, sure, people who are downvoting are well-placed to make it since they've already identified flaws). Sorry, but people crying because they lost 2 rep per downvote don't move me from that. Suck it up. Commented Aug 7, 2014 at 8:18
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    But, the problem is, it should not be about what you don't like (you, in the collective sense). It should be about sharing knowledge and disseminating information. We are not the stone-masons of yesteryear who worry that sharing information will cost us our jobs. If you feel the question is vague, explain why. If you feel it shows no effort to self-educate, give a short note as to why you feel that way. Sometimes, a concept is so new to someone, they might not know the proper terminology to phrase the question the right way. Slapping them upside the head because of that, is not helpful.
    – Jon
    Commented Aug 8, 2014 at 13:33

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