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I recently searched here on meta for possibilities to avoid the meta effect and couldn't find any articles that would address/contain reasonable proposals.

So here's, or rather are my question(s):

Is the meta-effect desirable in terms of drawing necessary attention to a post even if it sometimes (regarding on the readers personal point of view on that topic) results in licentious negative-voting that otherwise wouldn't have happened to such an extent?

Or is it actually not desired by the SO community since it's unbalanced relation regarding down-votes?

In case of the latter, what proposals (like using an excerpt without directly identifying the post or poster via a link) would be reasonable and also effective to avoid this?

I personally don't believe this is a duplicate of Impose a 24h voting freeze.. since I'm asking here if this effect is desirable/undesirable. In addition I don't present a certain proposal to avoid the meta effect - I asked the community for proposals in general if the latter is the common consensus.

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    The logic is that the meta effect simply causes a question to go to its "final state" faster. Good questions get upvotes faster. Bad questions get their downvotes/closure faster. Personally (and I know a couple of other users that say they do it as well) I try not to vote on anything I see when clicking on a link from meta.
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 13:18
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    I think that the only reasonable way to avoid the meta effect is to include screenshots of the relevant post(s) with the titles and usernames blacked out (as opposed to full screenshots or links). It is still possible to find the post(s) that the question is referring to, but that mild barrier to finding them might be enough to dissuade the meta mob from hounding any given post with votes and flags. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 13:21
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    @Patrice Good point there on the "final state" - but there's still the effect that the amount of downvotes exceeds the regular/ordinary..
    – iLuvLogix
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 13:22
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    "exceeds the regular/ordinary"? Since I'm sure you won't write that without any evidence except your "gut feeling", can you please share that? Thanks.
    – Tom
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 13:26
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    One thing about "ordinary" though. The number of views also grows very quickly when something is linked in meta. Is it possible it's that effect we see more than "out of the ordinary downvote". Basically "do questions linked on meta get so much visibility that the up/down vote ratio (compared to views) is still similar to what we see on non-meta linked questions?"
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 13:33
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    @Patrice Interesting - Are there any statistics available in order to get the relevant numbers to determine the aspect ratio between those two?
    – iLuvLogix
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 13:48
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    @Tom With 'ordinary' I mean within the normal ratio of views and votes without being exposed on meta as Patrice mentioned in his comment as well
    – iLuvLogix
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 13:59
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    @yivi I disagree with respect to the POB point. We should be able to post Meta questions that probe whether there is a consensus about issues like this one
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:26
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    @yivi Sorry if this reads like a caricature of your stance, but (1) Surely this can't mean we shouldn't discuss controversial issues about how the site is moderated? (2) If "either we have policy and tools [...] or it's all just a lot of noise", how should we decide whether new policies or new tools are necessary?
    – duplode
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:36
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    I don't think licentious is quite the word you want, unless you are implying that people who downvote are sexual deviants... Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:46
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    @yivi Are you meta-policing a little too much here maybe? And still you are getting involved with comments like I could understand attempting to avoid meta-effect in votes. But in flags...? Why?and therefore aproove that this question is valid..
    – iLuvLogix
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:24
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    You are, instead of providing arugments against my points, making arguments against my participation.
    – yivi
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:26
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    not against your participation - but against your sentiment in regards to the validity of this question and the effort you undertake to point out your noise-thing.. And if you would read my comments you can see that i do indeed argue about the asked topic - but anyways - let everyone decide on their own what to think about the topic and the question itself ;)
    – iLuvLogix
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:29
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    Possible duplicate of Impose a 24 hour voting freeze on questions being discussed on Meta
    – gnat
    Commented Nov 29, 2018 at 7:29
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    @user10465355 I just stumbled across a very good proposal suggested by JonK - a non-interactive snapshot of the question. I concede, this is much better than an image if one were trying to avoid the meta effect. Commented Nov 30, 2018 at 15:56

2 Answers 2

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How does the Meta effect differ from sharing the link on Facebook, Twitter, or ? I don't see anyone complaining about an influx of upvotes on their question. This is specifically about the perceived additional negative attention a post receives via the audience engaged.

People see the Meta effect as a bad thing, because the end result generally is unfavorable to the advertised post. Part of this is that the audience is much more quality minded, and usually have the additional privileges to perform curation activities, leading to the perceived negativity. Nobody likes their question being closed, or downvoted. Well, curators don't like low quality content; a question slipping through the cracks is arguably bad for the repository we're building.

There's going to be some additional commenting, which will lead to the user feeling harried. That I believe is unfortunate; it's hard for people to refrain pitching in when they see an argument going on. Here's the flip side, though; those comments often get defenders as well as detractors, which leads to a big massive freewheeling argument, where the defenders write off criticism, the poster sees the support and ignores criticism entirely, and the detractors just feel frustrated. Everyone's better off just casting their votes and refusing to engage further. That is, after all, their purpose.

TL;DR: Nobody complains about Facebook sharing and getting upvotes, but everybody complains about Meta sharing and being subject to curation. Can't have one without the other.

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    IMHO you are comparing apples with oranges since not every FB or Twitter user has an SO-account and can therefore cast a vote.. Please also note that nobody is complaining about ME in this thread - I just asked a question (or two) how this effect is perceived..
    – iLuvLogix
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:35
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    @iLuvLogix And the ability to upvote comes much easier than the ability to downvote. The chances of someone being able to upvote is much higher than downvote. And I disagree with not complaining about it; your entire question is predicated on, "avoiding" the Meta effect, which carries the implication of it being a bad thing.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:00
  • I composed the question title in the believe that it's a rather unfortunate effect after reading some articles on it - you used these words as well in your comment to James answer - but to clear my doubts on that topic I did ask if it's desirable or not..
    – iLuvLogix
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:05
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    @iLuvLogix There's an aspect of the meta effect I think is unfortunate. It, however, isn't limited to only detractors. I address that very aspect in my answer, and how we can properly deal with it.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:08
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    "TL;DR: Nobody complains about Facebook sharing and getting upvotes" For the record, people do complain about those sometimes too, just not as much as the meta effect. Of course it's usually not the author complaining about those upvotes, but rather other people who feel it's unfair or not representative of the post's quality or other such things.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:48
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    @Servy It seems additional attention, no matter from where, causes someone to complain. Meta effect, Facebook, social media, Hot Network Questions...
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 16:05
  • Technically, @iLuvLogix you can navigate meta without having an SO account as well...
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 16:10
  • @Patrice True but the affiliation between SO and meta is still much stronger than lets say SO and Twitter ;)
    – iLuvLogix
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 16:14
  • @iLuvLogix 100% with you. I was just being pedantic ;)
    – Patrice
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 16:15
  • @Patrice That's OK with me - what's a fact is a fact indeed ;)
    – iLuvLogix
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 16:16
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I don't have a horse in this race. I don't see the Meta Effect as a huge problem, but I can see why it is deemed to have issues. I don't see it as objectively or inherently desirable or undesirable. The below text addresses the following part of the question:

what proposals (like using an excerpt without directly identifying the post or poster via a link) would be reasonable and also effective to avoid this?


I think that the only reasonable way to avoid the meta effect is to include screenshots of the relevant post(s) with the titles and usernames blacked out (as opposed to full screenshots or links).

It is still possible to find the post(s) that the question is referring to, but that mild barrier to finding them might be enough to dissuade a meta mob from hounding any given post with votes and flags.

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    This presumes that the meta effect is a bad thing, and that the extra attention is unwarranted.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:04
  • @fbueckert : Do you personally think of it as bad/not desirable?
    – iLuvLogix
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:05
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    @fbueckert I'm aware. This is a proposal to avoid the meta effect, under the presumption that it is a bad thing. I personally don't hold a strong opinion on whether it is objectively good or bad. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:06
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    @iLuvLogix I think there's some additional dogpiling that happens in the comments, which I think is unfortunate. Voting, however, just brings additional eyes to it. Generally, since those eyes come from the more quality minded members, it's going to be more critical. It's less organic, but it's no less valid than sharing it on Facebook or Twitter.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:08
  • @fbueckert I disagree with you on your point with 'more quality minded members' since access to meta is granted with reaching a rep of 5..
    – iLuvLogix
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:12
  • @fbueckert But I agree with 'additional eyes'..
    – iLuvLogix
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:13
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    @iLuvLogix access isn't granted with 5 rep. The privilege to ask a question comes when you have reached 5 rep points. Access is granted to anyone. But the "quality minded members" point is valid. In general, the users that come to a SO question via a link in a meta post and the members who spent a lot of time on meta, which are the users who tend to be more interested in maintaining the quality standards. That also means they are more likely to up/down vote and/or cast close or delete votes. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:21
  • I could understand attempting to avoid meta-effect in votes. But in flags...? Why? What harm could "extra" flags bring?
    – yivi
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 14:59
  • @yivi admittedly I don't know how the flagging system works beyond "I raise a flag and it's usually marked as helpful by someone with more rep than me". "Hounding with close votes" might have been more accurate, idk. I guess my point is that people seem to be drawn to voting with the crowd - I know that if I see a post with lots of down-votes, I might be more inclined to look for reasons why it's off-topic rather than viewing it objectively like I would if I hadn't seen the voting (even subconsciously). Everyone does this in one way or another. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:17
  • Again, I don't really have a hat in the ring here. This is just my two cents about a possible "solution" to it if you see it as an objectively negative effect. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:19
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    @JamesWhiteley It's not even a good solution to that problem. Finding the post is easy, so you're just making it more annoying for people to participate in the post, not stopping it, and when a specific post is being discussed on meta, often a screenshot wouldn't be enough. People may need to be able to see not only the post, the comments, answers (if a question) the question (if an answer), the revision history, the post timeline, deleted content that the meta question author can't see, etc.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:24
  • The actual solution is to either ask a meta question about a specific post, and link to it, or to ask a question that is not about a specific post, and that merely describes a hypothetical question (even if it's inspired by a real situation) and gets answers to that hypothetical question. This both requires the meta question author to be able to accurately describe the situation clearly enough for meta users to understand it, and means any inaccuracies or incomplete info in the question may prevent the answer from being applicable to the situation it's based off of.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:24
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    Also realize many questions want to have a meta effect. Many questions are of the form, "I think this question shouldn't have been closed." or, "This is a good question it shouldn't be getting downvotes." and the intention of the author is for people to go there and vote on it. People may then go there and see a bad, or close worth, or flag worthy, post and use those actions as they feel is appropriate, even if it's not what the meta author wanted to happen.
    – Servy
    Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:26
  • @Servy any information pertinent to a question should be included in that question, so standard users shouldn't need to go to any given SO question in order to get what they want out of a question on Meta. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:52
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    For what it's worth, if an OP wants the meta effect to go one way and that backfires then I'm all for that. It makes entertaining reading for me while I'm on a break at work, and it teaches the OP about not trying to recruit meta to mass-upvote stuff. Commented Nov 28, 2018 at 15:53

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