15

I came across this question just now and want to get some feedback on following question that arose while reading the article/question:

Is it already some sort of advertisement when the OP states in the first sentence

Im a very novice programmer but created a cool Google Maps flyout which is a hybrid of several online tutorials..

and then links to a specific site on two occasions for other users to reproduce his problem?

What are your opinions on that specific case? Is this already some sort of spam or fully acceptable in this case?

You may take following facts into consideration: The user has posted three questions in total - all three with negative voting record (1st, 2nd, 3rd) and all three mentioning a certain website leaving a fishy smell of repeat offender.

To answer Goerge Jemptys question in the comments below why nobody marked this as a dupe besides him:

This is not a dupe of What is the exact definition of “spam” for Stack Overflow? because I try to get opinions on a very specific case here..

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    One suggestion I may give: don't give upvotes to counter downvotes. give upvotes because you think the question is good, helpful, useful. If the question is really below standards, you've just made it a positive rep gain for the OP.... As for "is it SPAM".... hmmm I'd say no. I don't see it much like advertisement honestly. It is noise though, and doesn't really have its place in the question
    – Patrice
    Nov 27, 2018 at 14:16
  • I can still revoke it in case the common consens of this community discusssion is that it's some sort of spam/advertisment - that's why I'm actually asking this question here ;) Since the question is of a somhow medium to good quality an upvote would be still valid
    – iLuvLogix
    Nov 27, 2018 at 14:18
  • 6
    No you can't always revoke. The vote eventually locks and becomes impossible to change, unless the question gets edited.
    – Patrice
    Nov 27, 2018 at 14:19
  • I had a similar question a while ago where a new user linked to his site. Magisch gave an answer which might give clarity in this situation as well: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/369190/9420984
    – user9420984
    Nov 27, 2018 at 14:19
  • @Patrice I know that, but this is why I'm having this discussion right now in order to get a consens in a timely manner before my revoke-option times-out ;)
    – iLuvLogix
    Nov 27, 2018 at 14:21
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    Upvoting to counter downvotes is a misuse of the voting system. You're voting on what others have done, not the content itself.
    – fbueckert
    Nov 27, 2018 at 14:21
  • Isn't the revoke at 15 minutes? according to your comment, you upvoted 16 minutes ago. Your window is out already....
    – Patrice
    Nov 27, 2018 at 14:22
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    @Patrice : True that but after reading Magisch article mentioned above I believe thouh it's a little misplaced I dont think it was his intent to advertise and since the question is of ok-quality I left my vote as is..
    – iLuvLogix
    Nov 27, 2018 at 14:25
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    @IluvLogix sure. My point was just that your intent of getting a consensus here in 15 minutes was a little bit optimistic :P. Your vote is your own to do with, of course. I was also just pointing out that "I'm giving you an upvote because you got downvoted" is a very different reasoning than "I give you an upvote cause I believe your question deserves one"
    – Patrice
    Nov 27, 2018 at 14:32
  • @Patrick : I fully agree with you there - maybe next time I shouldn't pack my reasons behind sarcasm such as 'to save your day'.. But looking at the reaction of Stuart that just got deleted here on meta I think he ran out of humour anyways ;)
    – iLuvLogix
    Nov 27, 2018 at 14:39
  • @yivi : Same here, that's why I asked - but let's see what common consens arises out of this discussion so we'll have a clearer picture on questions composed of such content - I agree on your comment that it looks kind of 'fishy'
    – iLuvLogix
    Nov 27, 2018 at 14:42
  • Since JS is involved, it looks like the site is a live demo, on the same level as providing a JSFiddle (or related). There's still a MCVE requirement, but this question isn't exactly the first time a question links to off-site code. Nov 27, 2018 at 15:44
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    @Zoe, While I agree that such links are often intended as a live demo of a problem, they are significantly worse than a link to a JSFiddle (both, as you said, still require a MCVE in the question). The site is almost certainly going to be updated once the OP gets an answer that works for them (from the OPs POV, that's the entire purpose of the question, after all). Thus, the link to their site has absolutely no lasting value for demonstrating the problem to future visitors. As far as the SO question goes, links to a live site only have value to the OP for solving their immediate problem.
    – Makyen Mod
    Nov 27, 2018 at 17:45
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    Do you have Developement problems? Do you want an instant answer to your code crap? Did you ever wished to find a website that solves your problems? Try to visit this site. It will solve all your problems. - That's how spam looks to me. This question just seem to fail in providing a [mcve]. If it's his own website or JsFiddle doesn't matter. Simple lacks an MCVE. Nov 28, 2018 at 22:32

4 Answers 4

11

This is just spam. It's an advertisement for their own product, and isn't even asking a question. The entire purpose of the post is to draw traffic to their own product. That's by definition spam.

The fact that they've made a pattern of behavior of this makes it even worse, with all of their posts linking out to their site. That would qualify the posts as spam even if they were asking good questions (which they aren't).

Avoid overt self-promotion.

[...]

If a large percentage of your posts include a mention of your product or website, you're probably here for the wrong reasons. Our advertising rates are quite reasonable; contact our ad sales team for details. We also offer free community promotion ads for open source projects and non-profit organizations.

https://stackoverflow.com/help/behavior

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    Not sure I quite agree with it being spam. Seems more like a new user that just doesn't understand how we do things here.
    – fbueckert
    Nov 27, 2018 at 14:29
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    @yivi or it could be SODD
    – Suraj Rao
    Nov 27, 2018 at 14:50
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    @Suraj Truth be told, it looks more misguided than ill-intended to me. But still, maybe they could rethink their approach.
    – yivi
    Nov 27, 2018 at 14:51
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    This assumes motives without evidence. While I have no problem with deleting the posts and giving the user a good talking to, the posts are at face value asking programming questions. The fact the user chose to ask specifically about their production site does not negate that they are demonstrably presenting us with HTML/CSS/JS problems to solve. Quite probably poorly asked, downvote and close worthy ones, but this is a far cry from the obvious, straightforward, pure self-promotion your answer asserts. This answer deserves to be downvoted to oblivion for blatantly misrepresenting the facts.
    – jpmc26
    Nov 28, 2018 at 2:41
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    @jpmc26 agreed - if the developer is only working on one specific product, of course all of their questions will be related to it. I don't see why the links couldn't simply be removed while leaving the questions with code intact. And yes there are a couple of ads on the website but targeting a dev Q&A site with spam for a series of motocross events (which make most of their revenue by attendance) doesn't seem very efficient Nov 28, 2018 at 5:52
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    @jpmc26 It doesn't really need to assume motive at all. Constantly linking out to your own site in every post of yours is defined as spam even if you are asking good questions (which they aren't). Also lots of spammers learned to tack on something vaguely resembling a half hearted question/answer into their posts to try to avoid them being removed as spam, it's not new, and it doesn't make it not spam.
    – Servy
    Nov 28, 2018 at 14:25
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    @Servy No. The entire section you cite is called "Avoid overt self-promotion." There is plenty of evidence that the user is not linking their site to promote it but just to demonstrate the problem. The paragraph you cite is just clearly not talking about what this user is doing by any reasonable interpretation. You're just trying to be pedantic, but it doesn't work if you actually stop and think for 10 seconds about what the help page is saying and compare it to what's happening here. Your answer explicitly asserts that the user is intentionally advertising.
    – jpmc26
    Nov 28, 2018 at 15:35
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    This is clearly not spam; all it takes is reading the flag description for spam to know that. Even moreso to me since I have additional context. Answer incoming.
    – TylerH
    Nov 28, 2018 at 15:37
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    @jpmc26 "Here are some specific behaviors to avoid - even with the best of intentions, these will nearly always result in your posts being flagged as spam: [...] Don't talk about your product / website / book / job too much. [...] Don't include links except to support what you've written. [...]" The help center very specifically says that these actions, which the OP has engaged in, will be treated as spam even if they are well intentioned. So you saying that it's not spam because it's well intentioned specifically contradicts the help center.
    – Servy
    Nov 28, 2018 at 15:38
  • @TylerH They're literally doing exactly what the help center says qualifies as spam.
    – Servy
    Nov 28, 2018 at 15:40
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    @Servy Saying that something draws spam flags in practice is not saying that something is spam. Your answer explicitly asserts that it is spam. Those are completely different statements. And wherever you pulled that from is not linked in your answer. If you're gonna be pedantic, at least do it right and interpret statements correctly.
    – jpmc26
    Nov 28, 2018 at 15:41
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    @jpmc26 I think it's pretty safe to say that the help center is referring to merited spam flags, rather than describing things that will be incorrectly flagged as spam. The whole section is on how to not be a spammer, and it suggests not doing those things because it'll result in your posts being flagged as spam. Why would it say those things if it didn't consider them to actually be spam? Here is the page.
    – Servy
    Nov 28, 2018 at 15:44
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    @Servy "I think it's pretty safe to say that the help center is referring to merited spam flags..." I have no idea how you justify that when the entire page is about how to promote your own work without being perceived as a spammer by the community, when the user is clearly not promoting their work but asking about specific problems they're having with it. That entire page is also talking about writing answers that use your product rather than questions about an actual site, so there's an obvious gap you've failed to close here.
    – jpmc26
    Nov 28, 2018 at 15:49
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    @Servy the help center being written with the knowledge of user habits does not make those user habits correct. The system says users will flag such things as spam. But the system also says via the spam flag that such things are not spam. So here we have the system revealing that users often wrongly flag stuff as spam and you're using that to justify your argument? Your evidence is arguing the opposite of your position.
    – TylerH
    Nov 28, 2018 at 15:51
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    @Servy, No, "users will likely treat this as spam" means users will likely treat it as spam. It doesn't mean it is spam. If you would like the flag description to be amended/improved, file a feature-request. In the meantime, as I've previously recommended, please don't expect users to rely on your headcanon when it so starkly differs from reality.
    – TylerH
    Nov 28, 2018 at 16:23
18

Let's get this out of the way first: the questions are bad. They lack a self-enclosed MCVE and expect people to delve into code on a 3rd party website (that is clearly destined for production after it gets out of the test phase). This is reason enough to downvote, close vote, and delete vote by itself.

That said, there's some things that are good in the questions, too. Let's look at one paragraph from one of the questions:

In summary: background-image wont properly scale within parent container. Secondly, (which I believe is probably related) Why the big empty space between the divs going down the page?

This demonstrates the following positive qualities:

  • On topic programming problems involving specific elements of HTML and CSS
  • Effort attempting to understand, diagnose, and fix the problem themselves
  • Scoped to a narrow behavior of the page (There's a small addendum about something they believe is related which might warrant a second question, but it isn't some huge diatribe about a totally separate problem.)
  • Description of current behavior vs. desired behavior

The questions overall have a similar level of quality, which isn't high but is far from the worst posts I've seen.

The fact that the question is obviously basically on topic makes it clear enough that we have no reason to suspect ill intentions here. The user clearly misunderstands our normal practices and expectations, but I see not a single line of evidence that their primarily motive is to get traffic to their site. They even offer the following poor excuse for why they didn't include an MCVE:

Would be way too cluttered for something someone can easily see via the above link.

This doesn't excuse them, of course, but it offers a believable explanation for why they're linking to the site. There is no reason to believe that the primary motivation for linking was to get traffic to their site.

So what do we do about it? Downvote, close vote, delete vote as normal. Flag for moderator attention since there's a problem pattern here, and moderators probably need to communicate that self hosting example code rather than putting it in the question is not acceptable. (Make it custom so you can explain the pattern.) Maybe point out the existence of the snippet feature. But putting aside any technicalities about what is and is not spam, these questions do not warrant losing 100 reputation per post. On the contrary, the good things (especially the increasingly rare demonstration of effort) I do see encourage me to think that with some education, they could eventually become a productive member of the community.

(Granted, their deleted reaction here pretty much wipes away that encouragement, but my answer is about the questions linked, not the user.)

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11

I try and look at everything in good faith, and to me this doesn't seem like spam.

As Magisch says in this excellent answer to a similar question:

Outwardly, it doesn't look like the intent of the post is to promote a product or service. Outwardly, it looks just like a low quality question of someone trying to embed an iframe into his website and not providing any of the necessary steps for SO to help them (MCVE, their code, what they tried, etc).

I'm not sure I'd flag this as spam. Assuming good faith it's probably just a low quality question. That only marginally changes how it should be treated anyways. As it's currently sitting at -2 and is well on track to being closed, the question is most likely going to suffer automatic deletion in due time.

The question in cases here seems to be about preventing a flyout reappearing, it has what possibly is the relevant code, and then links to his website so you can see the issue live, and most importantly, links to the JavaScript files (which no normally spammer would bother doing).

The OP of this post is not exactly helping their cause, but taking the post in isolation it does not seem to be spam to me. And spammers usually don't hang around once they've posted either.

And as to them posting a lot of links to their website (3 questions with links), I agree with Suraj Rao in that it's a case of SODD.

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    I'm appalled by the number of downvotes on this factually correct answer. There's no evidence of malicious intent.
    – jpmc26
    Nov 28, 2018 at 2:46
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    @Jean-FrançoisFabre Yeah, I saw it. But why on Earth is that an excuse to downvote a correct answer and upvote one that blatantly lies about the situation? Also, I don't equate "unnecessarily angry reaction" with "malicious intent" in the first place.
    – jpmc26
    Nov 28, 2018 at 7:17
  • don't try to reason an angry mob. Nov 28, 2018 at 9:10
5

Bit late to the game here as OP has already responded and the linked Qs have all been closed/deleted, but I have interacted with this user several times on chat and am perhaps more informed than the other respondents here, and the accepted answer especially is flat out wrong and harmfully fails to assume good faith.

To me, this is clearly not spam. That should be evident even to others who don't have the history I have with OP, as the spam flag says:

Exists only to promote a product or service, does not disclose the author's affiliation.

OP here is not trying to promote their product... at least not as a primary effort. His primary effort is trying to get help with web programming problems for his website/webapp(s). He also clearly indicates they are his sites and apps, so there's no affiliation problem, either.

What these are are good examples of "lacks MCVE" closure candidates. I tried via an answer (10k only) and via several discussions in the HTML/CSS/Web Design chat room (going back years) to get him to include MCVEs in his posts and his chats to get better help and to potentially discover his own problems (e.g. narrowing down to an MCVE might reveal the issue to him), but he so far has seemed either uninterested in doing so or perhaps incapable. I believe the folks over at room 17 have also encountered him a few times.

As most respondents have said, these questions should be closed with the "Lacks MCVE" reason until the user learns to abide by the rules and expectations of the site. I know I have certainly given him plenty of benefit of the doubt in the past; you've linked three questions, but he has many more that he has deleted in the past, and from my recollection none of them included MCVEs.

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    Constantly linking out to one's own affiliated site in every single one of their numerous posts is defined as spam in the help center, as my answer states. Additionally, that they've made a constant habit of intentionally refusing to provide self contained answers, and are instead demanding that anyone who wants to understand the question go to their site, driving it traffic, only supports the assertion that it's spam. That's not a suggestion that it's not spam. Demanding that people go to a website you own to even understand the question is super spammy.
    – Servy
    Nov 28, 2018 at 15:51
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    @Servy Nothing you've cited explicitly defines spam at all. All of it focuses on answers rather than questions, too.
    – jpmc26
    Nov 28, 2018 at 15:54
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    @Servy it's clear you don't know what spam means. Demanding someone go to your site to understand the question is not spam. Spam is unsolicited advertising. This is not unsolicited, it is in pursuit of programming help. The user has unreasonable demands/requests, yes. The user posts off-topic/close-worthy questions, yes. The user does not spam by the site's definition of it. The quicker you realize that, the quicker we can all get on with helping users.
    – TylerH
    Nov 28, 2018 at 15:55
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    @jpmc26 That doesn't mean it doesn't apply to questions, it just means that most people who engage in these activities are often posting answers, not question. And yes, it does specifically say that constantly referring to your own affiliated site is spam, even if you disclose affiliation, and even if there's an actual post in there.
    – Servy
    Nov 28, 2018 at 15:56
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    @Servy It also talks about advertising rates, which is clearly not relevant to a user asking about specific programming problems. None of it is talking about a situation remotely like this one. It's clearly talking about using the site to bring attention to your own, which is the definition of spam that appears elsewhere and is evidently not what is going on here.
    – jpmc26
    Nov 28, 2018 at 15:57
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    @Servy Because it's asserting that there is good reason to believe the person described is motivated by a desire to advertise their product. In this situation, all the evidence points to that not being the case.
    – jpmc26
    Nov 28, 2018 at 16:01
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    @Servy Parroting my own words back and repeating yourself is immature and doesn't help the fact that you're wrong. Perhaps the core issue here is that you are not aware you should be assuming good faith in all situations. Pretty much everyone who has responded here and in the linked answer in the comments sees this as not spam, but a misguided effort at getting programming help. You seem to think that, regardless of everything, OP must be covertly trying to drive traffic to his site for dubious/illicit reasons. You cannot moderate in isolation; context is key.
    – TylerH
    Nov 28, 2018 at 16:02
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    @Servy It doesn't say that. It only explicitly says it might get flagged as spam by the community and provides advice about conventions we have to avoid that happening. Self promotion is actually explicitly allowed by the help you link, since it describes the ways in which to do it without getting in trouble. And these questions aren't even self promotion.
    – jpmc26
    Nov 28, 2018 at 16:06
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    @Servy I haven't "repeatedly asserted" I'm right; I've shown via several different explanations and examples how you're wrong. There's a difference. By the way, since you seem so interested in absolutist positions (albeit wrong absolutist positions), the stackoverflow.com/help/promotion page is about answers, not questions, so you shouldn't be using it to support anything in this topic, since we're talking about questions.
    – TylerH
    Nov 28, 2018 at 16:08
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    @jpmc26 Yes, the help center describes ways you can self promote appropriately, without it being spam. And they didn't do that, they did tons and tons of things that it says make it spam. And they were told not to do those things, and they kept doing them anyway, because they just didn't care. That makes these questions inappropriate self promotion, a.k.a. spam.
    – Servy
    Nov 28, 2018 at 16:09
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    @TylerH You should take your own advice and actually read the help center, rather than making statements that contradict it, and say that exact quotes from the help center are wrong. The help center defines self promotion like this as spam. The definition in your answer is an incomplete summary, for the sake of brevity. The detailed description I linked to specifically defines this behavior as spam. It specifically says that the intentions are irrelevant, and that the content is spam even if there are good intentions, so even if you assume good intentions, it's still spam.
    – Servy
    Nov 28, 2018 at 16:26
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    @Servy: I'm just chiming in because there are so many comments here. The three questions are not spam. They are just bad questions. He simply hosts his MCVE on his website for his own convenience, when he should be hosting it on JSFiddle (etc.) and also including the code in the question. There's nothing more to it than that. Being marked as spam gives -100 reputation and should be reserved for cases where there is minimal doubt.
    – thirtydot
    Nov 28, 2018 at 22:15
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    @Servy: I think you're wrong on this one, but it seems that none of us can change your mind. The guidelines do not even support your position. "Don't include links except to support what you've written." - the links in his questions clearly support his (bad) questions. Here's another way of looking at it: one of his questions is still there, and hasn't been deleted as spam. For spam: I know it when I see it. And that isn't it. Good day, sir.
    – thirtydot
    Nov 29, 2018 at 1:08
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    @Servy Literally all of the comments by me, jpmc26, and now thirtydot to you on this page have described the ways in which the guidelines do not support what you've written. Everyone who has spoken up on this meta question in answers and comments agrees this isn't spam... except you. Even the two moderators who have engaged with Stuart's question(s) don't think they're spam. As a matter of fact, the one question that was deleted as an alleged spam question is the one that was undeleted. The other two were deleted for other reasons, e.g. low quality, no MCVE, and/or no value to readers.
    – TylerH
    Nov 29, 2018 at 15:38
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    @Servy So you can continue to accuse the overwhelming majority of participants in this discussion and multiple moderators of intentional misuse/abuse of the system if you like, but the rest of us have come to the correct conclusion and moved on.
    – TylerH
    Nov 29, 2018 at 15:39

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