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Dec 1, 2018 at 21:28 comment added duplode @JamesWhiteley JonK's proposal is interesting and well-argued. One example of prior art along those lines is Reddit's "no participation" mode. For many subreddits, using np.reddit.com rather than www.reddit.com when linking to a thread will disable the voting UI.
Nov 30, 2018 at 15:56 comment added James Whiteley @user10465355 I just stumbled across a very good proposal suggested by JonK - a non-interactive snapshot of the question. I concede, this is much better than an image if one were trying to avoid the meta effect.
Nov 30, 2018 at 11:49 comment added 10465355 @JamesWhiteley At the moment I am not convinced that any action is necessary, as the post shows no evidence that meta effect is significant enough (both in magnitude, as only tiny fraction of questions is ever discussed o meta, as well effect on votes ratio) compared to other non-organic sources of traffic.I could be wrong of course.
Nov 30, 2018 at 11:36 comment added James Whiteley @user10465355 users who need accessibility tools obviously wouldn't be able to get much out of a screenshot, no (unless the image description was particularly thorough). That's a problem with all posts with images though. What do you suggest as an alternative?
Nov 30, 2018 at 11:31 comment added 10465355 @JamesWhiteley I think that the only reasonable way to avoid the meta effect is to include screenshots of the relevant post(s) - ins't that effectively disenfranchising visual visually impaired users?
Nov 30, 2018 at 8:51 vote accept iLuvLogix
Nov 30, 2018 at 6:10 history reopened duplode
Blackwood
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Nov 30, 2018 at 0:45 review Reopen votes
Nov 30, 2018 at 6:10
Nov 29, 2018 at 18:53 comment added C Perkins Does the "Hot Meta Posts" list cause a meta-meta (double meta?, meta^2) effect? I never would have read or voted on this particular question without the list. Is the list bad or good? Should that list be eliminated? The answer to all these questions is to stop visiting SO altogether and there won't be a problem to worry about.
Nov 29, 2018 at 18:31 history closed yivi
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Arun Vinoth PrecogTechnologies
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Opinion-based
Nov 29, 2018 at 12:59 history edited iLuvLogix CC BY-SA 4.0
added reason why imho it's not a dupe
Nov 29, 2018 at 7:29 comment added gnat Possible duplicate of Impose a 24 hour voting freeze on questions being discussed on Meta
Nov 29, 2018 at 5:26 history edited Jonathan Leffler CC BY-SA 4.0
Fix trivial typos
Nov 28, 2018 at 16:02 history edited iLuvLogix CC BY-SA 4.0
added 18 characters in body; edited title
Nov 28, 2018 at 15:29 comment added iLuvLogix not against your participation - but against your sentiment in regards to the validity of this question and the effort you undertake to point out your noise-thing.. And if you would read my comments you can see that i do indeed argue about the asked topic - but anyways - let everyone decide on their own what to think about the topic and the question itself ;)
Nov 28, 2018 at 15:26 comment added yivi You are, instead of providing arugments against my points, making arguments against my participation.
Nov 28, 2018 at 15:26 comment added yivi @iLuvLogix The fact that I believe the question is noise, ultimately harmful and should be closed doesn't preclude me for commenting on the question (to hopefully help you into editing into shape), or its answers (where they are perfectly relevant).
Nov 28, 2018 at 15:24 comment added iLuvLogix @yivi Are you meta-policing a little too much here maybe? And still you are getting involved with comments like I could understand attempting to avoid meta-effect in votes. But in flags...? Why?and therefore aproove that this question is valid..
Nov 28, 2018 at 15:16 comment added yivi I'm trying to reduce the noise by pointing out the uselesness of this question and questions like this.
Nov 28, 2018 at 15:12 comment added iLuvLogix @yivi If you honestly consider this questions as noise - why do you get involved with lots of comments on the actual content and the answers then? - That seems rather odd to me - Why not just vote for closure and move on..
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:53 comment added iLuvLogix @HereticMonkey Thanks for pointing that out - That remark just put a smile on the frivolous part in me ;)
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:51 comment added iLuvLogix generally you are right - but licentious can be also used in terms of 'with no restraint' or 'arbitrary' without the sexual connotation.. Feel free to edit ;)
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:46 comment added Heretic Monkey I don't think licentious is quite the word you want, unless you are implying that people who downvote are sexual deviants...
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:45 comment added yivi @duplode It doesn't, dont' worry. I think is great to discuss interpretations of actual policy. In this case, it's not about site policy, but about etiquette. "Should we, as end users, do something to avoid the meta effect when posting on meta. If yes, what can we do?". I believe that's a mis of POB/Too Broad/Trivial; and it is also impossible to regulate. Another discussion would be "Should SE/SO do something to avoid the meta effect" . That other question is a dupe. (It also doesn't help that this question is actually asking two different questions).
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:39 comment added iLuvLogix @yivi The question already has one close vote - if not for discussion what is meta exactly for?
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:36 comment added duplode @yivi Sorry if this reads like a caricature of your stance, but (1) Surely this can't mean we shouldn't discuss controversial issues about how the site is moderated? (2) If "either we have policy and tools [...] or it's all just a lot of noise", how should we decide whether new policies or new tools are necessary?
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:31 comment added yivi @duplode In the end, either we have policy and tools (policy we kinda have, IMO, in the answer by Tim in the first question I linked), or it's all just a lot of noise.
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:30 review Close votes
Nov 28, 2018 at 15:33
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:28 comment added yivi @duplode I understand, but I believe these questions are more harmful than beneficial. They are asked again, again, and again (just search for meta-effect and see the results), and the answers are all over the place. Some users will believe one thing, and others will believe another. In the end in most cases it will come to "it depends", and those posts will be used now and then to attempt to "prove" a consensus exists, where it actually doesn't. Opinions change, members of the community change, circumstances change, etc.
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:26 comment added duplode @yivi I disagree with respect to the POB point. We should be able to post Meta questions that probe whether there is a consensus about issues like this one
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:23 comment added yivi And as you see on the answers below, users are answering different questions in your post.
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:21 answer added fbueckert timeline score: 21
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:17 comment added yivi The first question is completely POB, so I wouldn't ask it. I would refer to the many posts discussing the issue. The second question I find useless, since there is no magic about it: if you want to avoid meta-effect when posting a question, try to make it less likely users can reach a specific post from your question.
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:15 comment added iLuvLogix @yivi Sometimes one question raises another - would you recommend to me to split them apart in seperate questions then?
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:10 comment added yivi I mean, you have more than one question "is the ME good or bad" (POB), and "how to avoid ME" which I think it's not possible to answer beyond "if you want to avoid the meta-effect, avoid direct links, attempt to anonmyze if need to refer to specific posts".
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:04 comment added iLuvLogix @yivi As stated in my question: 'In case of the latter....' - meaning that I'm curious if somebody comes up with a practical solution that could be used by sensible users of this community
Nov 28, 2018 at 14:04 answer added James Whiteley timeline score: -4
Nov 28, 2018 at 13:59 comment added iLuvLogix @Tom With 'ordinary' I mean within the normal ratio of views and votes without being exposed on meta as Patrice mentioned in his comment as well
Nov 28, 2018 at 13:55 comment added yivi I don't understand if you're looking for something like this, or are you looking for some sort of community consensus. If it's the latter, I'm afraid that kind of thing is very hard to achieve, if at all possible. I'm pretty sure a lot of users will have very different opinions about what's proper and what not about the meta-effect, or even opinions about when is appropriate and when not. I believe that looking for consensus on this wold be a POB question.
Nov 28, 2018 at 13:53 comment added Tom What do you mean with "ordinary"? More general votes than usual (up, down, close or delete votes) or votes "leaning" into a certain direction? About the first one: yes, that's obvious. You've shared a question to a much broader audience, thus more people will read the question and cast their vote. About the second one: it would be interesting to get some evidence regarding the negativity of the "meta effect". We (or at least I) don't know if the same amount of down votes (or the other types) were cast when the same people visited the question without being linked on meta.
Nov 28, 2018 at 13:52 comment added Patrice @iLuvLogix I guess you can make it in some SEDE queries.... might be difficult to track which question has been linked from meta though
Nov 28, 2018 at 13:50 history edited yivi CC BY-SA 4.0
deleted 1 character in body; edited tags; edited title
Nov 28, 2018 at 13:48 comment added iLuvLogix @Patrice Interesting - Are there any statistics available in order to get the relevant numbers to determine the aspect ratio between those two?
Nov 28, 2018 at 13:33 comment added Patrice One thing about "ordinary" though. The number of views also grows very quickly when something is linked in meta. Is it possible it's that effect we see more than "out of the ordinary downvote". Basically "do questions linked on meta get so much visibility that the up/down vote ratio (compared to views) is still similar to what we see on non-meta linked questions?"
Nov 28, 2018 at 13:32 comment added iLuvLogix @Tom Eyperienced it yesterday when posting this question on meta when poor Stuart got down-votes exceeding the ordinary for that given time frame - besides that you could read the answer of Oded (>400k rep) on the question I linked in my post
Nov 28, 2018 at 13:26 comment added Tom "exceeds the regular/ordinary"? Since I'm sure you won't write that without any evidence except your "gut feeling", can you please share that? Thanks.
Nov 28, 2018 at 13:22 comment added iLuvLogix @Patrice Good point there on the "final state" - but there's still the effect that the amount of downvotes exceeds the regular/ordinary..
Nov 28, 2018 at 13:21 comment added James Whiteley I think that the only reasonable way to avoid the meta effect is to include screenshots of the relevant post(s) with the titles and usernames blacked out (as opposed to full screenshots or links). It is still possible to find the post(s) that the question is referring to, but that mild barrier to finding them might be enough to dissuade the meta mob from hounding any given post with votes and flags.
Nov 28, 2018 at 13:18 comment added Patrice The logic is that the meta effect simply causes a question to go to its "final state" faster. Good questions get upvotes faster. Bad questions get their downvotes/closure faster. Personally (and I know a couple of other users that say they do it as well) I try not to vote on anything I see when clicking on a link from meta.
Nov 28, 2018 at 13:16 history asked iLuvLogix CC BY-SA 4.0