1217
votes

I've been using Stack Overflow for a few years, and initially most questions you asked got a positive reception: happy comments and answers, people that tried to help you out regardless of the way you worded it. Of late the tendency is to simply close or put on hold most questions, or downvote them, or make fun of the writing or the style.

I use GameDev SE too, and I find it much more positively minded. As a simple metric, compare my questions on GameDev vs my questions on Stack Overflow. See the multitude of closed questions and/or downvotes on Stack Overflow, while on GameDev every question was well received and has at least one answer.

Now I don't have files of hard facts to prove anything apart from a growing feeling that Stack Overflow is becoming very negative of late. Pretty much every intelligent question I've tried to ask of late gets downvotes, while silly technical issues get well received.

Firstly, why is this? Is it that moderators are getting egoistic about their powers and like to close or "put on hold" questions as a kind of power display? Is it growing frustration with "noobs" who ask "silly questions" that "should be deleted"? Or is it just that programming is a tough job and makes once happy people into irritable people because they're facing horrid technical issues day in, day out?

Secondly, whatever the case, whatever the cause, what can be done to improve the attitude (positivity) of the Stack Overflow users/moderators such that you don't feel scared to ask a question?

I'm not trying to criticize anybody or make a statement, I'm actually asking this out of desperation. The most useful, incredible programming community on the web is turning sour, and I really don't know what I should change (even in myself) to help make it work.

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54 Answers 54

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votes

What a crap.

Logged in to upvote a comment under the OP after reading links from it and found it wiped with mod's reproach. "Discussion site is not the place for a discussion!" - I thought only rotten Russian parliament can be associated with such an oxymoron. To see it in a programmers community is a foul shame.

Well, there was a comment that, according to the new censorship rules had to be posted as an answer. All right, here it goes

it's all due to repwhores who are digging for the same easy to answer ( coming from novice programmers ) questions on daily basis. Most of the good questions have already been asked and answered. What drives newbies here is the rep whoring part of this community -> the troubleshooting masters... who drive us away from hereme how

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  • +1 @Your Common Sense I just want to copy-paste your About Me into my About me profile :)
    – user2140173
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 12:46
  • @gnat As far as I remember this link weren't in the original comment Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 12:48
  • 2
    but it suits it well! leave it there :)
    – user2140173
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 12:49
  • @mehow well I wish that too. where can I find it? It is showing me a copy of my SO account profile, while my old good meta profile rant is missing. Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 12:49
  • 1
    I hate you both, Your and @mehow - because of you, I made two rollbacks :)
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 12:50
  • @YourCommonSense here
    – user2140173
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 12:50
  • 4
    Yes, yes. Repwhores never let you close FAQs, they would upvote the silliest of questions, and write the same answers over and over. Look at this rep whore who is complaining that it isn't possible to copy/paste an answer to multiple questions in less than a minute.
    – devnull
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 16:29
  • 2
    @devnull mmmyeaahh, but... that user looks pretty solid to me overall, looking at his top answers. So maybe he got that aspect of the site wrong - not a deadly sin in my eyes.
    – Pekka
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 22:09
  • 3
    @ddriver I parsed this as Your Common Sense as perhaps being Russian (and lamenting the state of things in his home country), not as some political statement.
    – Pekka
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 22:10
  • I hate reading comments that should have been posted as answers, leaving the question open. Thank the mods for enforcing the site's purpose. Commented May 5, 2014 at 12:08
3
votes

I've read through all the replies (admittedly not all the comments) and want to add my perspective which is a bit different.

First off I'm a very experienced programmer (C++, Java, and C#) and, I think, am a pretty good one. I use Stack Overflow as a resource and have never cared about points or badges. I try to answer questions at times to pay back for the help others give me, but I do ask a lot more than I answer.

I think a lot of this is people being quick to down-vote or criticize. We hire computer science interns at my company and they're among the top at school. When they get stuck on something I point them at Stack Overflow and give them guidance on how to ask the question, so they don't come across as a noob.

Almost without exception, people on here find reason to close it and without a whole lot of explanation as to why. And in every case I think it was a valid question well phrased. There's something wrong when people are closing questions from top computer science students that first did a diligent effort on Google and could not find an answer. People like this are a problem.

You also have know-it-alls, like this case, who have become the acceptability police determining what answers are appropriate. They reduce the useful information on the site and drive away experienced knowledgeable contributors - a two-fer.

And you have the grammar police. This question (link to my blog with the original wording as I re-wrote it to get it opened) comes up first in Google for "FIFO C#". Was the questioner's grammar imperfect - yes. But the question was clear and IMHO spot-on for this site. Yet it was closed.

And I get the same treatment in a number of my questions, where someone decides that what I'm asking isn't valid. From this one where a lot of the downvotes were - that can't be happening (the fact that it is apparently is not relevant) to this one where I figured the answer was probably no, but it's always better to ask.

I think people need to realize that not everyone comes at this with their exact same approach, knowledge-base, or fluency in English. If someone's made no effort first or is posting homework or you have no idea what they're talking about, yes let them know that. But very smart people will still ask questions you find trivial, but they're stuck on. People new to the site here will stumble at first. And the response to those cases is what determines the tenor of this site.

I'm presently learning TypeScript and JavaScript, and boy is that a learning experience as both the language and runtime environment are very different. I've noticed the people who answer the TypeScript questions are all very supportive, even for questions that once I understand it, I realize were dumb. The JavaScript ones are more across the board, some very understanding, many fine, and some quick to downvote or close.

I think what's needed more is the attitude of the many really terrific contributors here who do understand that the people asking the questions they can answer by definition know a lot less on that subject.

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  • 1
    YES. "Acceptability police." Any question that seems to invite an answer that would go against standard practices is downvoted. Ask a question that requires a global variable? Downvoted. But why? If the question is rubbing your aesthetics the wrong way, it's probably a good question. Noncanonical questions are the only good ones left.
    – stevesliva
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 17:54
  • THIS! 1) Put a lot of effort into writing up question (like 4 hours at least) 2) Someone decides "this is not a programming question" moves it "programmers" 3) Immediately title-edited, and answered by a guy who clearly didn't understand it; try to stay civil about this 4) his irrelevant answer gets 2 upvotes 5) my question tagged as "duplicate" by 5 self-appointed karma police who don't understand it 6) further study reveals an appropriate answer 7) write up answer 8) answer immediately gets two downvotes by random people 9) question classified as "duplicate". 10) WTF Commented May 3, 2014 at 12:55
2
votes

You all have very good points in this matter, and I agree with a majority. Many of these questions are asked because of laziness.

Unfortunately for newer users, Stack Overflow seems very negative these days. I mean you come to Meta to talk about problems and voice your opinion, and you get down votes? This is why they made Meta.

I know as a newer and developing programmer, I am not sure how to look up several questions I have, to accomplish all the tasks I've been given. I can't just post a junk question asking how you would word something or it would get shot down and closed extremely quickly. So I ask questions to get help to understand what we need to be focused on because, as the only programmer at my work, I don't have anyone to ask for help with issues that are over my head.

We don't mean to ask junk questions but we just don't know how to word them for your better understanding. I am not disagreeing with down-voting questions -- I like it -- but post a reason and maybe you can help the asker better understand what they have done wrong, or how they can better research these questions.

Stack Overflow has helped me more times than not in my work; it also makes me leery of posting questions, for fear that it's a bad one and will be ill received, no matter how I word it or show what steps I have taken.

I just think we should focus on getting people on the right track to answering their questions or them finding it themselves, instead of being negative and acting like we have been doing this for years.

I'll state it again: I'm not against down-voting; it needs to be in place for better understanding. I just think we could focus more on helping askers understand what they are looking for.

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votes

Well, I think it is about time that editing questions gets somehow incentivised and that people spend time making specific questions general and adding keywords/phrases/tags to questions such that they are more easily found on Google.

Merge duplicate questions... the text of the questions and the answers. This will also improve the chances of someone finding out the solution before asking the questions.

Insert a 'flag question for editing' in the workflow, and incentivise it. There are enough number of people who do not know the answer, but they can help phrase the question more appropriately. So badly phrased questions instead of being closed or downvoted get a chance.

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  • 1
    Unfortunately, doing really excellent editing of questions takes a lot of effort; it's not easy, and there aren't a lot of people who can or want to do it. On the other hand, maybe that means it should be rewarded, but then gaming is always a danger. Something to keep thinking about, for sure.
    – jscs
    Commented Apr 24, 2014 at 19:40
  • I am sure that there are lots of people like me who realise that they cant really improve on the answers and are on stackoverflow on weekends. I (and many like me) would jump at the opportunity of getting karma this way. Commented Apr 25, 2014 at 5:23
  • 1
    8k questions a day. I think you are woefully underestimating the number of active users daily with 2k+ rep that A) aren't already part of the problem B) would rather edit garbage than try to help the users asking good questions. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 0:28
2
votes

I do agree with many that the amount of 'stupid questions' has risen immensely.

I define a stupid question as:

  1. A question to which you can find the answer by just pasting the title into Google and look at the first page of results.
  2. As above but when adding the tags.

So maybe it's just too easy to get an answer. Because of the big number of people visiting SO and answering questions, there is almost always answering your question. And I find myself doing that too. Sometimes I see a question which is stupid (by above rules) or poorly written or unclear, and I will downvote or closevote it, and usually post a comment as well, or upvote existing comments that already denote my opinion.

But on other times, when my mood is different, I can read such a question, and just type in a simple answer.

And I think that feeds bad behaviour. If me and everyone else will just ignore the question, or downvote it and tell what is wrong, then eventually people will feel themselves forced to write good questions and Google (or, God forbid, read a book or tutorial) before askings yet another duplicate.

But then again, answering those question is also a hobby and a learning process for me. I've even (succesfully) answered questions for programming languages or techniques I've never used myself before. But sometimes a question (stupid as it may be) triggers my curiosity and it will cause me to Google a bit, read about a subject and learn something new in the process.

So to solve this problem, I think I and others should be even better police agents and be even more strict in judging the quality of a question. That should bring the volume down and the quality up.

But I'm afraid it won't work.

First of all, I don't know if I (and those others) can be that strict. If I see a question and would like to answer it, I don't want to ask myself whether the question is 'good enough' to be answered. Sometimes, answering it is just easier than checking whether it was already answered.

Secondly, I'm afraid a lot of damage has already been done, and I'm not sure if there are measures that would turn the tide without damaging SO's reputation even further.

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  • If someone posts their homework problem for you to just do for them, and you find the problem itself intriguing, then solve it and just don't post your solution.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 17:31
  • 1
    That's a good suggestion, although I don't see the difference between homework and professional work, apart from the latter dude actually getting payed for the solutions SO provides him.
    – GolezTrol
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 17:34
  • There isn't, I'm just less likely to find professional work as entertaining. Many homework questions are designed to be cool/fun/interesting/unique. A lot of LOB work is boring an repetitive. The general approach of solving and not posting can be applied to any question that should be closed for any reason.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 30, 2014 at 17:35
1
vote

I'm thinking that maybe one solution to improve the questions on SO (and thereby the answers and general tone on the site) could be to improve the chat part of the site.

If I have say a WINAPI question that I don't think would help anyone else (or one that I can't formulate into a good quality question) then the logical thing would be to ask it in a chat instead. But I just can't figure out the chat function. There are plenty of rooms, but little indication to which would be the best to ask my question in. Say there are maybe 5 rooms that possibly might be able to answer questions about WINAPI, but which one is best? Most of them also seems to be more or less empty with nothing written in hours or days. Result: either I ask my question in the wrong room and gets treated like an idiot or I ask it in an empty room and get no help.

I think larger (higher populated) more general and easier-to-get-into chat rooms would be more helpful. Or maybe better information to how they work or how they are structured (searching on tags, a tree structure or something). If people were informed that they could use the chat instead before they post their question on SO maybe some of the crap questions never gets asked and the tone improves.

Maybe have a general "noob" chatroom where you can ask your question and be directed to a more correct chatroom (or to post the question on SO proper)

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1
vote

I get far more than I give here. I.E. I ask questions when I need them answered. If, in so doing, I happen to see something where I feel I have something useful to say, I'll say it. This happens rarely.

I think most of the questions I ask are decent. I get more up-votes than down-votes. A couple of weeks ago I asked one that got down-voted really fast. There seemed to be two packages available for accomplishing something I needed to do, and I was looking for guidance as to which was better. I had done some research and it I couldn't find any A vs B flame wars on the internet such as is usually the case in such situations. I was initially offended. Eventually, I did a bit more research and learned that my basic assumption was wrong. There weren't two options. One was a living, breathing package and the other hadn't been touched in years and was dead except for zombie links. That's why there were no flame wars. I deleted my question. The quick-on-the-draw downvoters were right, and I was wrong.

I can take it! And if someone is unreasonably nasty I can be nasty in return if I have to.

I still find the site valuable.

If I had time I'd contribute more and I wish I could do so.

Let's stop beating ourselves up. This is a good community.

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vote

Why is Stack Overflow so negative of late?

It is the age.

It is not a baby anymore, nor a child, or even a teenager. Considering websites and online communities scale of time, Stack Overflow seems to be moving from adulthood to senior season, already.

I remember the good old days when people entertained themselves when a question arrived. It was a joy to make them and participate in the problem solving discussion, when not simply being amazed when receiving a well done simple and straight answer...

Last time I've made a question I felt humiliated. People, instead of trying to understand the question, rumbled because they couldn't answer it. Very different from the beginning, for sure. The polite and smart people from the old days are not as available as before, and the added noise makes sane and joyful threads each day harder to happen. Unfortunately, and paradoxically, it is also a price being paid for its own success and popularity.

Luckily, I am able to feel the good taste again, because we have Stack Overflow in Portuguese - which is my native language! There, the community is newer, and we can easily find and feel that joy we could originally find at SO in English.

Instead of being thrown critics, downvotes and offensive rants, when a question arrives there, it is considered as it is: a technical question, deserving its proper attention and consideration. I think we will also have this better community sense and enjoyment there for a longer time, exactly because of the language constraint. Our success and popularity in Portuguese will never reach the same proportions as the English one...

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  • This is effectively saying "There's no possible way for any site to maintain quality with age". Disagree. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 1:14
  • No, it is not. This is only your interpretation.
    – J. Bruni
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 7:24
1
vote

After reading a lot of answers here, I've thought a lot about the issue. I think there are two things I could say that could help:

First, I think the general attitude towards poor questions is people didn't know or didn't care about following the rules. I think we should be aware that for a lot of users, that isn't the case. I still get closed questions occasionally despite agonizing over every question I write to make it perfect and acceptable. I literally have a paranoid fear of my questions getting closed. So why does it still happen?

Usually because I don't understand a key detail about what I'm asking. I think I know enough to ask the question, I've done my research, I know the rules, I just have something that hasn't clicked yet. The result is someone who understands the issue correctly reads my question and it doesn't even make sense to him, since he understands the issue fully. And then he does what he should and closes the question.

Closing these questions is currently the correct behavior, but it has a few unexpected consequences. First and foremost, people who try very hard to follow the rules get disallusioned and feel the site is negative. Sometimes because their question was simply closed instead of their misunderstanding being addressed, they don't agree with the decision to close their question and get upset. Last, sometimes people do address the misunderstanding in answers, which leads to other users being upset that someone tried to answer a question that should have just been closed - because the question just turned into "help this one fellow understand why he made a mistake" rather than Stack Overflow's purpose of creating a reference to help everyone. I feel the current system doesn't address this problem - the individual who writes legitimately poor questions and an individual who takes hours out of his life to write what would have been a quality question if he understood the whole issue are treated the same. This leads to negative feelings.

Second, a lot of the problem comes from the general Internet not knowing or caring what Stack Overflow is. Ben put this perfectly when he said: "This site was meant to provide a canonical resource for programmers to find answers to their questions." The problem is, the average users on Stack Overflow do not use the site like this. Do they?

To change the average internet user's behavior on Stack Overflow, we have to understand how he thinks. The average internet user does not read instructions. The average internet user makes judgements about what a site is and its purpose within 5 seconds of first visiting the site. These are things we all know from UX studies and can't change.

We obviously shouldn't have to hold their hands or allow their poor behavior, but we should understand that if we want to solve the problem, we HAVE to address their behavior and habits. In other words, instead of complaining about the general internet user's behavior, we have to accept that it's not going away and change Stack Overflow to reflect that. We have to do a better job at communicating the purpose of Stack Overflow within 5 seconds.

Perhaps a solution to this problem could be somehow changing the format or expected wording of the questions to better represent a general resource rather than one user's question. Or perhaps it would help to make the site a little more exclusive or forceful in purpose (Quora seems to have taken this approach). I honestly don't know what the best course of action is.

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  • You only have three closed questions, and I only see one that might fit your description of "closed even though I put in a lot of research effort", Best way to record changes to a sql server database and send them to the client. Do you have deleted questions, or are you inflating one example?
    – jscs
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 19:24
  • @JoshCaswell I've deleted a few because once I understood them they were no longer good questions. Here's one of mine I was thinking of: goo.gl/gKkUPD. Generally, I think I ask good questions, but because it has happened, I'm scared to ask questions. I know there are a lot of other users who are scared to ask questions despite trying their best to follow the rules. Some people struggle with the language skills to word their questions in a clear way as well. In other words, I think we should treat people differently when they are trying, as opposed to asking legitimately bad questions.
    – dallin
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 20:02
  • What do you find "negative" about your question being marked as a duplicate? It's just "your answer is already available". If you don't find your answer at the linked question, edit to clarify why.
    – jscs
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 20:17
  • @JoshCaswell Because when you tried your best to make sure there wasn't a duplicate and then it gets marked as a duplicate, you feel like "why should I even try anymore." In other words, it's not negative if you didn't look, but if you tried your best to look, it is.
    – dallin
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 20:20
  • @JoshCaswell I'm just trying to explain my personal mentality so others will be aware some people do get hurt by these things. I'm not saying it's the right mentality. It can be quite negative though when, like in the case of my link, you do not agree with the decision and your question gets thrown out with little you can do.
    – dallin
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 20:32
1
vote

It doesn't seem like more moderation-hours or harder moderation hours will resolve the bigger problem of power-user/moderator burnout.

A confluence of factors internal and external to the site have exposed flaws in its regulatory mechanisms. Internally, there are too many new users asking too many low quality questions; there are too many users who value rep over the integrity of the site; there are too few compelling questions to maintain the interest of expert users.

I think the external part of this is more interesting:

  • SO has become the de facto resource for programming q/a (I.e., It is no longer a resource enterprising programmers find on their own, but is now a resource complete novices are sent to directly because it is the one obvious resource.)
  • There are large economic and political incentives at play in the market for programmers and the skills they possess.
  • Relating to the above, SO profiles are sometimes used as a measure in the hiring process; SO reputation can be said to have real-world value. We would probably be hard-pressed to quantify this value on our own, but I suppose a shrewdly-composed study with smart controls could probably suss out what the rough real-world value of a quality SO profile which asks smart questions and gives smart answers is (especially for those of us without long resumes.)

The answer is probably just a question: can we align the incentive system in such a way that it leverages the economies which currently work against the goals of the site in such a way that the incentives instead properly drive the behavior we need to see?

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vote

By just filtering on the behaviour of a self-selected group of high ranking users you're skewing the results (not that they're not potentially valid when extrapolated to the community at large). I've been an occasional poster for several years now, and agree the percentage of fluff in the questions has gone up. But the main reason it appears so massive it the massive increase in the number of questions overall.

Simply put, if there's 100 questions asked per day, and 5% are fluff, that's 5 questions and most likely nobody will see more than 1 of them before a moderator removes it.
If there's 5000 questions asked per day, and 5% are fluff, that's now 250 questions that are fluff and most people will see several and think the quality of the site is degrading.
Worse, at that point the literal amount of fluff will start to affect search ratings for the site as a whole, skewing the Google index for several topics people who generally end up posting fluff use to find places to post (typically these amount to homework problems...). Once the site ends up being listed by search engines among "free homework services" you're doomed unless you spend a lot of time and energy in an extremely aggressive campaign to get rid of it (and just closing the questions doesn't help, they're still indexed by the search engines, they need to be actively deleted).

So why is the mountain of fluff what it is today? In part it isn't, the percentage is probably not as much higher as it was a few years ago, even if the total amount is.
BUT the very real danger exists that it's already at or past the tipping point for causing search engines to list SO among those places where lazy schoolkids and others with no interest in doing their own research go in order to get others to do their work for them. And with the "be nice" campaigns (which were a good idea by themselves, a lot of the old timers here were and often still are way too hostile towards people with lower reputation, just look at the meta posts where people suggest allowing users to do things like block out all content generated by people with low reputation...) causing a reduction in the actual deletion and deterent effect on the homework kiddos (as I call them) the problem was allowed to grow.

So more aggressive moderation of blatantly off topic or unresearched questions, deleting the questions outright rather than just closing them (with a possibly automated email to the asker as to why might well help stem the tide, but it will take time to clean things up and revert the search ratings to what they should be (and yes, that will reduce the total traffic, something many site owners don't like).

0
votes

The answer is simple: gamification. Some users care about programming, but the most care only about their reputation. And creating lots and lots of new rules will never solve this problem, as this is a fundamental design defect.

0
votes

Every community hit periods of growing pains (repeatedly) as old mechanisms for signalling and communication break down at new scales. One of the main issues here is the crapflood on the question queue. It may be that I've just missed part of the UI, but where is the option to filter out questions with less than X upvotes?

The problem: over time the ratio of questions worth answering approaches zero.

A solution:

  • Give people filtering options that include scores when they look at the queue (remove the frustation of trying to find non-crap to answer).
  • Set a default threshold for the site that people can change, e.g. +2.
  • Give people a motivation to read the crap, for people who browse at a low threshold:
    • When a question has an accepted answer, everyone who upvoted before the answer gets +1 rep.
    • When a question is closed, everyone who upvoted before the close gets -1 rep.

tl;dr Separate out filtering crap from answering non-crap, and provide an incentive for people to filter. A better signalling mechanism will soothe growing pains until a new community scale is hit.

-4
votes

Competition.

The initial idea of the member reputation thing was to encourage good answers and good questions. But as the site is getting more popular, people show their SO score on their online profile, in their resume, on their blog etc. There's also the careers site: People with high reputation score have higher chance to get the job. So what happens is that people feel they are in competition with each other -- which encourages them to downvote rather than to upvote. Why increasing someone else's job opportunities?

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  • 3
    If this was the case people would be being harsh on answers, not questions - and even then if your argument held, I risk losing rep by downvoting on answers. Finally, nobody puts/should put their SO rep on a real-world resume. If the employer cared, they would be using Careers. Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 12:25
  • 1
    At least Spolsky does
    – claasz
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 12:30
  • Is it really your feeling that people are harsh on questions, but positive on answers?
    – claasz
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 12:36
  • 1
    Like I said. If the employer cared, they would be using Careers. And yes, people are positive on my answers! Unless I've said something idiotic, in which case they're 60% constructive, 40% harsh - and I can handle that Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 12:38
  • 1
    I would have to agree. I recently interviewed with a company who asked if I used SO (and had a spot on the application for my SO id). If I were a hiring for a software developer, I would like to know if the person used SO and what his/her score was. With this in mind, it puts SO rep on a whole different playing field than it originally started out to be. We need to try and stay focused on the OP and his/her question not rep points. Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 18:54
  • 1
    I strongly disagree with this argument that users downvote other people just in order to be competitive in terms of job-marketability. Most Stack Overflow users are either here to help people, earn reputation, or both. Downvoting posts that don't deserve downvoting is just silly and unreasonable. Downvoting posts that aren't good, clear, well-researched questions, or clear, correct answers, on the other hand, is reasonable, especially given the clear guidelines on how to write good posts.
    – user456814
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 19:45
  • 3
    This is a valid concern in theory, but it's also why there are such strict limits on voting: you'd be hard-put to make a dent in the reputation of anyone with any perceivable amount of competence, and the anti-fraud systems would tend to kick in long before that. As a general rule, folks up-vote much, much, much more than they downvote.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 23, 2014 at 21:04
-5
votes

Stack Overflow wants to be a wiki of technical information, but it is laid out as Q&A. It really doesn't want to answer questions. In other words, it wants to be one thing but is advertising itself as something else.

1
  • I don't see how that is true. Questions and answers are the lifeblood of the place. What is true that those questions and answers are intended to be somewhat "canonical" answered only once of a few times, but very very well (and constantly improved, that's where a Wiki aspect indeed comes into play)
    – Pekka
    Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 5:10
-5
votes

As a new user of SO, who absolutely fell in love with the StackExchange communities, and recently had many questions downvoted and forced to be deleted, I can't express my frustration over this. I came to find answers not to pester the mods, and more importantly, yes I would try to make my questions better and better, but the veterans of SO can probably attest to the fact that this takes time and experience to get a good question and good answer in. This is not your typical forum.

I feel that StackOverflow and StackExchange as a general was created for smaller communities. StackOverflow being the forefront of SE is overflowing (yes, "overflow" again) with questions and users who are not as cultivated as the older members. Quite simply, the format of Q/A is a bit outdated for our current usage.

Others in this question mentioned that users in StackOverflow are having harder times finding good questions to answer, AND having a hard time making good questions for others to answer.

Put simply, I think SO has to refine the search functionality so that people can filter through the levels of expertise. There are always bound to be newbies to the forum that are going to ask easier and 'stupid' questions, but usually, these questions can be answered by users that are similar to themselves.

The solution is not to turn newbies to other forums and to www.google.com, but rather to let them work amongst themselves by creating microcommunities within SO.

TLDR:' The Problem: Helpers can't find good questions to answer, newbies can't ask without being bashed super hard. The Solution: Help helpers find good questions, through refinement of search functionality and creation of microcommunities and by doing so also help newbies get answers from other newbies.

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    The community does not exist just to provide you with an answer to the question you couldn't bother to do any research on. You are obligated to form a proper question if you want it answered. We are not obligated to answer your poorly formed question. That is exactly how this site has separated itself from its competition, and why it has been so successful. The site already goes to pretty great lengths to encourage users to search for duplicate questions before posting, and it already creates microcommunities through the use of the tag system.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 19:29
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    "Quite simply, the format of Q/A is a bit outdated for our current usage." ... I think you have that the wrong way around. The way people are currently trying to use SO isn't its purpose. And unless we want to let SO simply become "ExpertsExchange II" we need to put a stop to it. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 23:06
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    "also help newbies get answers from other newbies" That's exactly the thing you don't want in a programming community. That's what degrades the site into a steaming pile of an endlessly duplicated, useless rubbish. Let me put it that way: StackOverflow is not a programming assignment solving machine. It is meant to help people learn, not help them get their jobs done. That's only a side effect. If users recognize you solely ask for the latter, you will naturally get flak from them. Questions that permeate thoughtfulness and modesty still get great answers and hardly any downvotes.
    – Tomalak
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 9:06
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    In fact, if your question was downvoted, that's pretty good evidence that you've been doing things wrong and it has nothing to do with being unwelcoming to newbies. Sure, its uncomfortable to be criticized, especially when you come with the best intentions. But taking that personally is a mistake. Think about the critique and try to improve in that area. Asking a good question is surprisingly hard. If it takes you less than half an hour then you're already trying to outsource thought processes you ought to have to the community. And that's the issue I (at least) have with most bad questions.
    – Tomalak
    Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 9:11
-6
votes

I don't think SO is so different from any other social network. Except that

  1. here you can downvote
  2. here you have an explicit reputation
  3. here we can elect the sheriffs

So what's different here is that SO is a social network where power is more evident. But the social game is the same everywhere. It's a big social experiment.

And as many believe, every social network also has some duration. If that chart showing the top users leaving SO is accurate, maybe it's a trend.

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  • Yes, the task at hand is to not make the same mistakes as the other Networks that lost it. This is a trend, and it is possible to change it. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 12:42
-6
votes

While the founders and many people on SO may still see the site as a Q&A library, from this new poster's view, SO is in fact something quite different than that. SO is first and foremost a community - a community of teachers, learners - people. Since the rationale of the site is for experts in a field to provide guidance to others, I would humbly suggest that a thorough answer to this question should come from a specialist in group dynamics.

Maybe someone out there knows an expert in the field who could weigh in on the subject. Maybe the community even cares enough about the answer to sponsor an engagement of that sort with someone who could study this thread, browse the community, interact with various users - really dig into the problem - and provide specific recommendations back to the group to address the perceived shortcomings of the current model.

I have found SO very useful as a research tool and have started to post answers in an effort to give back to the community that has helped me. My interactions have largely been positive. I posted a half-baked answer in that sleepy hour after lunch one day and got some corrective comments from the community, including from at least one PhD specialist in the field whose insistence on precision really impressed me. Notable is that the question was initially posted by a 13 year old looking for very general information about how JavaScript can interact with the DOM.

While that entire discussion may have driven some of the more experienced users on the site a bit mad, it seems to me those are exactly the kinds of posts that keep the community going. Was that question a duplicate of something earlier? Almost certainly. Was it well researched? Not at all. What really matters is that a 13 year old kid was interested enough in knowing the answer to ask the question. The old passing on knowledge to the young is what builds a community and keeps it thriving.

You can, for instance, strictly enforce the idea of closing duplicate questions, but as long as people can still ask questions, you will continue to get duplicates, and someone will have to answer or close them. If you cut off the ability to ask questions, you are then declaring the goal of the project reached, leaving behind a read-only Q & A library. If that happens, the SO community, the Internet, and the world of learners at large will be much poorer for it.

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    The about page is very explicit about not being what you claim it says we are. I fail to see how you can determine, from the about page, that this site is what you are claiming. Also, your assertion that duplicate questions should be closed as such, rather than answered again and again and again and again and again and again and again by people too lazy to do a web search would mean making this site read only is simply not true. While there are a lot of duplicates, original questions crop up every single day. The topic is simply that expansive, and ever changing.
    – Servy
    Commented Apr 24, 2014 at 20:06
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    Quite simply, you're using the site wrong (start reading at the last quoted segment).
    – jscs
    Commented Apr 24, 2014 at 20:10
  • @Servy, The site is not the same thing as the community. The site is the vehicle through which the community builds the library of knowledge. The problems being discussed here are not technology problems, they are people problems. That's why you need a group dynamics expert to properly answer the question. Commented Apr 24, 2014 at 20:44
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    Yes, there is a community; a community of people asking and answering specific, concrete questions such that artifacts useful for others are left behind. It's not really clear how your interest in discussion, guidance, and extended interaction fits in with this topic of negativity, but one thing is clear: your decision to play polo on a cricket pitch does not constitute a problem so complex that it requires a "group dynamics expert". It constitutes a decision point for you: to play cricket or find another field.
    – jscs
    Commented Apr 24, 2014 at 20:57
  • @John Caswell, Trying to enforce the way the site is used through convention is like trying to make everyone healthier by telling them to eat better and exercise more. You might make a dent in the problem, but you will not solve the problem. If you want to change the way the site is used, you need to change the way the site works. To do that, you need some recommendations on what to change, which brings me back to the notion of having a group dynamics expert offer suggestions about ways to change the site that would improve the experience for everyone. Commented Apr 24, 2014 at 21:10
  • @Robert your analysis of the situation is not wrong. And if millions of people show up and want to play polo on a cricket pitch, then you have to question whether it isn't time to convert to a polo field. But - the community you speak of isn't a static asset. It consists of experts showing up frequently. The main reason why they do that is arguably: good questions. There will always be an infinite demand for free programming help, but a very limited supply of it, so your main focus needs to be how to be attractive to those experts.
    – Pekka
    Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 4:00
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    Now personally, as one of those experts, I signed up here to help build a canonical archive to help future generations; I've done the other thing before, answering questions in a traditional Q&A forum with no serious concept of "duplicates", and I've grown deeply tired of it. I'm not sure whether a group dynamics specialist can really provide the insights necessary to provide continued incentives to those people to show up.
    – Pekka
    Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 4:01
  • I like this part of the answer "a 13 year old kid was interested enough in knowing the answer to ask the question". To me it means that nobody is error-free and all are still learning to some extent. It takes a bit away the pressure to deliver perfectly researched questions. Still one should make the check for duplicates rather yourself instead of relying on the community to do it for you. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 7:14
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votes

Sharing a few month old experience here, I had asked this question because of the comment by a user, who is reaching 80,000 Reputation, says

Disclaimer : Am not targeting users personally, am just taking few examples to prove my point

Unfortunately, questions asking to fix your code considered offtopic on this site [sic]

And few people supported him, I somewhat got upset with this but there is much little we can do about.


Coming to similar situation today, take a look at This Question, here, it was closed as

This question was caused by a problem that can no longer be reproduced or a simple typographical error. While similar questions may be on-topic here, this one was resolved in a manner unlikely to help future readers. This can often be avoided by identifying and closely inspecting the shortest program necessary to reproduce the problem before posting.

So this sentence is too broad for me, it's just a personal opinion, looking close to the sentence it says

This question was caused by a problem that can no longer be reproduced or a simple typographical error.

So fine, no typography error in the question, so I deem this reason to close vote as invalid.


While similar questions may be on-topic here, this one was resolved in a manner unlikely to help future readers.

I don't see any reason how this may won't help the future visitors, OP also stated that he searched and he got Over half a million - kind of random - hits. I haven't found any page describing the value itself. It has 0 hits on StackOverflow.

So again, this reason is deemed invalid as well.


his can often be avoided by identifying and closely inspecting the shortest program necessary to reproduce the problem before posting.

Again, deemed invalid, now solution is weird to the question, the string which OP found is nowhere in the source code, and may be a result of something.


After I commented there, I went to the PHP room because am aware of the CV-Ring because I was the victim for the same. User commented that I am rep whoring, judging someone from the reputation is not a good reason to downvote, I may have good reputation, but I was a beginner and was learning PHP.

What if user learns new languages, he may answer some questions, to just try out his skills, but users judge from the reputation. I don't mind if I receive downvote, but peer force is what upsets me the most.

I've being the part of CV-Ring and I know how it works, I've closed the questions as well, but I've always read the question before voting whereas other users go with the flow.

So I went to PHP room today and posted this and I came to know that the same user did the fuzz with the above question I discussed. What was the reason?

of topic, no use to future visitor, higly localized

The question was useful, even the PHP professional appreciated the efforts.


The point I want to prove here is that users generally go with the flow, few care, rest follow other users. I remember well, when I joined this website, users used to comment

What did you tried?

After seeing this, I used to comment similar things on the questions who didn't shared any codes and asked for help, as and when I got some understanding, I left doing so. Similar thing is with PHP OOP comments, one user comments, rest of them just insult the user saying you have a vulnerable code, and stuff. And they downvote just because the users code is ineffeciaent.

Same with the upvotes and the downvotes, one user upvotes, its likely that the other user having low experience will go with the vote score and will upvote and downvote rather than judging the question.

I try to write canonical answers most of the time, because I love to explain things in brief, and I get a comment (Now deleted) saying

-1, explained too much in detail which is confusing for a beginner

So, its matter of judgements, few users are concerned, rest follows the herd ... what I call is Sheeps, one jumps and rest of them follows (except few), so its the effect off all the things together, like, One comment abuses the user, creates negative impact on the other viewers as well, and likely they follow the same.


Also, we have some really vague definitions as far as the site rules are concerned which does disturb the users, we often say this

The question won't be useful to future visitors

So what we do? Close, or delete, now these action makes sense when questions are duplicate or they are really really generic in nature, which can be found by simple search, but as far as I know, most of these questions gets highest views. Site will be left with mere 1/2 a million unique questions, rest are left with < 50 views, so should we close or delete them all? Because the definition says so, we should close them if they are not useful for future visitors.

In what way does this question helps future visitors? - Reopened by a moderator

Whereas the similar one was closed


tl;dr : rules are bit vague, where users are confused themselves what to do, they judge the posts either by peer reviewing, or by judging the actions of others, or some review the posts with the interest, post some fancy things, attract the visitors. So there is nothing like negativity, it's the high rep users who dominate, and downvote/close questions of the users who are new, and as the post is closed, we get more crap as the OP will ask another question, and thus arises debates.

Can't help :)

-7
votes

What is crap for some is enlightenment for others. May be answering some basic question is a waste of time for someone, but can be intellectually stimulating for someone else, less advanced in this area.

Wouldn't be the solution to split a way or another a community into several levels, like beginner, intermediate, advance, wizard ? If you think a question is too dumb, you vote to downgrade it to a lower category. There some people may find rewarding to make a reputation for themselves by answering questions some more advanced users would regard as "crappy". During that time, the experts can concentrate on a stream of more sophisticated questions.

In short, don't mix the high school with the university.

Just my 0.02 €.

"Education is cheaper than ignorance"

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-8
votes

Stack Overflow used to reflect the archetype of The Perfect Programmer.

Everyone wanted to be one - hence everybody acted in unity to achieve that.

With popularity and dividing site into countless subsites, this reflection got lost and replaced with some kind of holy shrine of scrupulosity or whatever how anyone sees it. Main thing is - people don't want to identify themselves with this site anymore. Those that care and do want to - are in pain.

And when there's no common goal - there's no empathy.


The idea that this can be fixed by more segregation through dividing questions into levels of quality is just stupid - that would just furtherly encourage the brightest minds to go elsewhere.


This looks sad.

-11
votes

DUPLICATES - SO got it wrong at the first place. In order to stay interesting for all, SO must accept duplicates.

Trying to remove duplicates is cumbersome (ask the admins), frustrating (ask the users), useless (from the user's point of view), and harmful to Stackoverflow.

Yes, harmful: Everything evolve, fast: languages, practices, libraries, environments, OSes, databases. Even answers do expire. Take this example :

(MVVM) How can I manage to close a Window from the ViewModel?

Ask this question in 2008 and ask it again in 2014. You would not receive the same answers: MVVM has maturate, users have found shortcuts, some practices have proven better.

  • If you don't allow duplicates, you would got one question with, say, 8 answers, the last one having been posted in 2010. The irremovable "Best Answer" will reflect what was the state of the art... in 2008-2010!
  • If you allow duplicates, you may end with three similars questions having 8, 10 and 2 answers respectivly, and three "Best Answers", each of them being the best at the time they were choosen. The whole thing would simply show the evolution of MVVM.

I said "irremovable Best Answer". As you already know, "Best Answers" are not the best answers. They are "Best Answers YET", and this matter. A lot. The best answer is the best until a better one is posted.

  • If you don't allow duplicates, a question asked in 2011, that got 12 answers and for which a Best Answer was choosen 3 months later, will never be read by those who may now have better "Best Answers". This question is dead.
  • If you allow duplicates, the same question can be asked again, and again, each time opening the door for better answers and letting more and more new players play the game of sharing and learning.

Of course you can get the same answer. But so what? Users will always find the best answer for their case (do not underestimate them). SO will pay just a little more for the storage, but admin will have great time focusing on problems that matters, new users will be able to win points and medals, answers will be kept up to date.

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-13
votes

Starting from this answer with which I totally agree I would also add another possible explanation for the negativity here.

I can find on StackOverflow some really strongly amazing and interesting question like this one: How do 20 questions AI algorithms work?

69 Upvotes, 27 bookmarks, 5 answers each of which is very voted. A lot of enthusiasm and so on.

But if the question would be opened today probably it would become closed. Since maybe it's more suitable for the Programmer site.

Doesn't matter if I'm wrong with this specific example, don't focus on the detail, don't be nitpicking / quibbling. The important stuff is that a long time ago SO was full of enthusiastic people who wanted to share the knowledge.

We can read this also on the guidelines. The main purpose of this website is to spread the knowledge. It's written on a 2 years old article of the blog. A milestone.

Have a look at it: https://blog.stackoverflow.com/2010/09/good-subjective-bad-subjective/

The point is all in this two words: quibbling and main purpose = spreading the knowledge. Today the objective of SE is to allow only high quality questions. To stay in topic. To follow the rules. And this is achieved with a strong fight against wind mill..

Many effort to create some questions which could really attract interest is considere OT.

And now, for fun, the movies to see to understand which kind of world suits the model SE has taken: Matrix, Equilibrium, V for Revenge, Divergent. A world where someone which is better than you can tell you what you are allowed to write or not. Think on my joke and try to be more flexible. Life means different opinion, and not: who doesn't think like me should leave this community. This, in real life, would sound really really bad.

-16
votes

To be completely honest: I hesitated to even participate in answering this 'question' because of the omnipresent threat of downvoting (core of the problem IMO). I'm sure I'll get downvoted for SOMETHING in this response, but whatever I'm just trying to help - shame on me. Often times people don't even know how to ask their question or which keywords to Google! This leads to bone head questions, but it can lead to useful answers to obscure questions. These poorly asked questions are then crawled by Google and other people typing in the same poorly worded question will search, find, and learn... somewhat reminiscent of how I first learned of Stack Overflow.

Side note, I completely agree that "heres my code dump fix it plz" is lazy :\

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    Why are you afraid of downvotes? Since MSO is a real meta, downvotes don't count negatively towards your reputation. That said, I'm not entirely sure your answer addresses the points raised. It kind of seems like you're agreeing with the question as stated, in a more terse fashion.
    – Makoto
    Commented Apr 24, 2014 at 0:14
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    This is the internet. If you write "I'll probably get downvoted for this" then you will. It's a magical incantation, like a Bat-Signal that summons sadists. Commented Apr 26, 2014 at 10:58
  • @Charlesism Nevertheless this magical incantation doesn't make much sense, does it. Maybe the site should automatically insert an "Probably I will get downvoted" at the beginning of each question and answer here. This answer here makes the case for a higher degree of tolerance on this site and thereby answers the original question. So why was it downvoted? Commented Apr 27, 2014 at 12:00
  • @Trilarion Downvotes on meta are different; they mean "I don't agree with this". They are not a commentary on the quality of the answer. Commented Apr 28, 2014 at 23:10
  • @BrianRoach Thanks for the explanation. I understand it now although the tooltip of the voting buttons still say useful/not useful. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 7:02
  • @Trilarion Yeah, I may not be right; according to the FAQ that's only the case for "feature-request" tagged questions. I'm new to the meta thing and I had read others saying that without looking it up myself (shows you what I get for that). I'm not sure now. Commented Apr 29, 2014 at 7:04
  • @Makoto I think he's pointing out that there's people out there who downvote and upvote in order to game the system and get themselves and their friends more reputation over others. Create 2 accounts, upvote each other constantly, downvote other things. Each upvote gets the other account 10 point, which is enough to downvote several things and still get positive rep. Seen that a lot on other sites, I'm sure it happens here as well.
    – jwenting
    Commented May 2, 2014 at 14:50
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    I just wanted to find the most downvoted question :P Commented May 4, 2014 at 18:38
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