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So on Mark Amery's Feedback post about the newest blog post, I wrote this comment:

If you're gonna use any user input to define "unwelcoming" y'all are going to be in for a rough time. The userbase of this site is diverse enough for there to be contradictory definitions of unwelcoming for different people. But I'm sure you know that and the data scientists know that too, so what is this exercise for?

Due to a prompt from staff I'm posting it as its own question, but I'll expand a bit further.

According to the new Code of Conduct Proposal, the various past blog posts and explicit statements the stated goal is to make Stack Overflow less unwelcoming.

The problem I have with this goal is that it is borderline impossible to define. From the direction the staff are going in, they're going to try and act on unwelcoming comments first. The problem here is ironically with how diverse Stack Overflow's userbase is.

We have people from all over the world on this network. We have many different cultures that have sometimes widely contradictory norms and values. So far we've tried to address this by focusing on the technical nature of the problems: Everything that wasn't explicitly important for the technical process of finding answers to your questions was considered noise and removed.

Moderators are already pretty liberal with deleting comments once they've outlived their usefulness or if they're noise. This was always the shield we managed to hide behind to quell any cross-cultural debate of niceness: All technical, what isn't technical needs to go.

Now with the new efforts, the goal seems to be to be especially welcoming to a wider audience. Quality concerns aside, I don't think we can arrive at a sufficiently specific and yet universally applicable definition for that.

With how many wildly different cultures are represented at Stack Overflow, any sufficiently specific definition of unwelcoming to be actionable by the wider userbase will be unwelcoming to another portion of the site. For instance:

  • I find comments with lots of phrasing and lots of couching and encouragement wrapping criticism to be rude and condesecending: They waste my time and I know it's insincere.

  • Other people (that I've seen!) react a lot better and a lot more receptively to feedback if you couch it this way

  • Anything in between.

Trying to get through to people and to not make them feel belittled is an art. Every person needs a different approach and it's not guaranteed to work. Some people will find anything that isn't expressly validating them and their opinions to be belittling.

Are there any concrete plans on how we'll arrive at a sufficiently specific yet universally applicable definition of "unwelcoming" so that it'll be actionable?

Stack Overflow obviously wants to expect more from its long term users, but how can we begin to define that?

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    Short answer: we won't.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 7:54
  • 42
    It just isn't necessary. The approach is to poke SO users with a sharp stick repeatedly to effect a change of behavior. Social engineering. When the number of DVs are down by 16% then that's certainly working. I didn't know that pushing programmer buttons was that easy. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 8:19
  • 9
    Yeah well, sticks hurt.
    – Gimby
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 8:20
  • 88
    It's a near-useless, moon-phase-dependent, non-metric that anyone is free to apply to any post that they wish. It enables anyone to r/a flag anything, anywhere, for any reason they wish. An all-purpose sword/shield weapon, it can be used effectively to to silence curators, placate shareholders and vilify other users with impunity. If you are sufficiently immoral to use/abuse it effectively, it's wonderful! For example, you can use it to drag misogyny and racism into a Q&A about linker errors. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 8:25
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    The other problem with comments with lots of phrasing and lots of couching and encouragement wrapping criticism is that they can be difficult for non-native speakers to follow.
    – TRiG
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 9:58
  • 11
    Honestly, for me personally these unwelcoming-related posts are making me confused about whether or not I'm doing/saying the right things overall, up to the point that I don't even know it anymore at some times. So I think that this is a good question, a definition of how/what should be defined as (un)welcoming would be helpful, even though it's probably impossible to define. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 10:00
  • 18
    "I know it's insincere" The core of all this "wellcomic" debat ...
    – Teemu
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 10:02
  • 113
    All this "unwelcoming" debate it nonsense for the most part. It reminds me of what is happening in schools in certain countries, where the mark system is dumbed down for children not to feel hurt in their little feelings if they are total failures. Let's call a spade a spade, if an answer or question is badly written or is down right stupid, or if the author clearly isn't making any effort to improve, why on Earth would we punish people for speaking the truth. How can one improve if they are always patted on the back for their mistakes? Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 10:35
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    <sarcasm> Perhaps a good start is that all sarcasm must be encapsulated by the appropriate HTML element </sarcasm>
    – Luuklag
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 11:09
  • 4
    Missionaries; "manifest destiny". Remake the world and force everyone into the mould that is perceived to be the only correct form of society... => Intolerance and lack of diversity. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 11:11
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    The big problem I have with the whole "welcoming" issue is the fact that a huge number of the people complaining do so because their issues (questions) are outside the scope of stack overflow (and are thus downvoted, closed etc.). It's like joining a gardening club to get answers for your car repair questions, you maybe even meet someone taht is willing to help, but you are just at the wrong place and will soon be told so. (1/2) Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 11:53
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    We cannot really be that welcoming towards them, because they are looking for something that is not Stack Overflow. We might need to do a better job explaining what our scope is. We might need to be more civil when telling people that they are outside our scope. But we can't really be more welcoming for people that just are at the wrong place. (2/2) Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 11:53
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    @Andy - SEDE is tricky due to it not tracking deleted posts. The site-analytics page shows it pretty well. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:54
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    @JulienLachal I live in one of those countries where the schools don't assign grades or give scores anymore. They don't even include what is called a learning outcome on the report card anymore. The report card is just a form for the teacher to write comments on. It's impossible to "fail" anything, and as my son has found out through observing other kids at school, it is entirely possible to do nothing at all without any negative consequences. As far as I can tell, the only thing this teaches the developing generation is that they can do whatever they want and get away with it.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:53
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    @smci look, all I know is that for the past 3 years my son has not received a grade or score on any assignment or report card. The only thing we get back from the school is positive reinforcement comments on the report card. Nothing negative or critical is said or written. At the parent teacher conferences we are only told positive things. When I asked why, I was told that anything negative would supposedly cause trauma or something along those lines. The whole precious snowflake mentality.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 3:21

7 Answers 7

145

Frankly I cannot see the site ever truly agreeing on what is "unwelcoming" behaviour. Beyond the basics, there will always be cultural and language differences that contribute to miscommunication.

We need to take care of our long term user base

Many new users do not stay on the site. People wanting to stay, will stay, as did I and any other user being on here for some time. Was it easy? No. Neither was getting a paid job as a programmer and going through the code review process with my peers. That was harder than any problems I've had on here. As my livelihood depended on it. My reputation. I'd much rather cop some negative feedback on here than by an employer, colleague or client.

I don't think the language of welcoming is our biggest issue. We've had a lot of flux since the welcoming blog and there's been changes that most of the community has stepped to. I've been a strong advocate for the be-nice policy and improving our behaviour. At times it's put me at odds with the community. But, we need to take care of our long term user base. It's long overdue.

I am not advocating rudeness. We cannot cure rudeness and we have the means to take care of this, via flags and suspensions. There have been people who have had past issues and I can say (quite proudly) these people have stepped up. Long time high rep users with a following of flags, have cleaned up their comments and taken heed of the the issues raised here.

This real issue

This real issue is: Why are users being snarky, sarcastic or impatient. The low quality content. The sheer volume of it and the inability to clear much of it (re close vote review queue) in a timely fashion. If the network wants to encourage long term users to stay and improve the mood on the site, then these users need to ability to moderate poor content more easily.

This has been going on for too long. Heck, there's even a room dedicated to trying to reduce the Close Vote Review Queue. This should tell us, we do not have the tools for the community to moderate the site effectively. And we've been asking for those tools for years. 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018

Clearly the abuse on the site runs in two directions.

Are other reviewers opting to use no comment to avoid confrontation and is this a problem?

Comments asking for clarification or an MCVE are not rude/abusive

It's time for a change

Give the community the tools they need to remove the garbage off the site, make this site a quality resource. Not by giving us more votes and making us work harder, reduce the number of votes required to close and delete posts.

Revamp how to ask, rewrite the code of conduct, all helpful, but give the community the power to moderate the content quality on the site.

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    I totally agree that low quality content is probably the bigger problem, but I've given up on trying to convince Stack Exchange to do something about that years ago. The question template seems like a step in the right direction, even if it's a small step, from one angle only, and indeed long overdue. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:26
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    @usr2564301 look I don't mean to put anyone down, I've written some poor posts myself. It's trial and error for many people.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:50
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    Wow I did not expect this kind of answer from you, +1 indeed.
    – Krupip
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 19:05
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    I don't see how content quality justifies why users are "being snarky, sarcastic or impatient." It's been pointed out many times that if you feel the need to comment on content and can't refrain from doing these things, just don't. Someone else who can respond professionally will come along eventually. Anyone who responds in this way is just going to generate comment wars that a mod will need to come along and cleanup. It's counter productive. The fact that one person can come along and demonstrate the correct way to respond indicates it's not a necessary result of bad content.
    – AaronLS
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 21:49
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    @AaronLS It's not a question of justification. It's a question of treating the disease instead of the symptoms. "The fact that one person can come along and demonstrate the correct way to respond indicates it's not a necessary result of bad content." This is patently untrue. Nearly all of the questions I see on the front page are the result of the OP just fundamentally having no clue what they're talking about and not being willing to sort through that phase on their own time before posting a question. Such questions are often the easiest to answer and have the least lasting value.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 23:25
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    @AaronLS Example from today: stackoverflow.com/q/51331778/1394393. Answering questions like this isn't good for anyone. It just teaches learned helplessness and clutters the site with content no one is ever going to find helpful again. But some 141k rep user posts an answer and earns 8 more rep on it, anyway, communicating to the user that they're going to continue getting spoonfed. It's completely understandbale that a lot of users are frustrated.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 23:32
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    @AaronLS I'm not justifying snarky behaviour, I'm addressing a big cause of it and it's causing burn out and disillusionment. Our active user base needs to also be looked after. There will always be rude people and we don't accept that. However our long term user base have improved in the comment standards, so where do we go from there? Address some of the issues that have been long complained about.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 0:59
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    @jpmc26 I don't think the welcoming efforts are misguided as such, perhaps could have been handled better? But I'm not sure if it could have been, it's easy for me to be an arm chair critic. We needed to make a change, but we have been dismissive of our long term users and it's time that their needs were addressed. There's no point being welcoming if there's no experts left on the site because they're burnt out, or disillusioned. We at least need to say thanks to these people for putting the content on the site.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 1:04
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    @snb Yes, I see the flags and I'm feeling sorry for our community. It's getting to a point that people are tied up in knots, as the most basic of comments will upset some people, and that's not our fault. If people want to use that as an excuse to bad mouth the site, well there's nothing we can do about that. In terms of improving our conduct, we needed to and we have.Not perfect, no, but it never will be. At least by taking some of the pressure off people, it will surely help. If people can delete the content, they won't feel the need to comment so much when they find another low qual post.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 1:07
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    Reducing the number of votes needed to close: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/348560/…
    – Raedwald
    Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 8:22
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    @AaronLS I don't see how content quality justifies why users are "being snarky, sarcastic or impatient." Those things are subjective. Add non-native speakers in the mix and you can never be sure if that snark or sarcasm was intended or just a lack of sufficient skills in English, or maybe even so basic as cultural differences between for example US and UK. There are certain ways of phrasing that an American would find perfectly polite and nice, while a Brit would read it as intentional passive-aggressive sarcasm or fake politeness. Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 10:33
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    @jpp I'm a little confused how you're applying this analogy to our site?
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 15, 2018 at 9:37
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    TL;DR "We need to take care of our long term user base" alone gets you a +1 Commented Jul 15, 2018 at 16:20
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    @AaronLS "There's a big difference between a non-native speaker saying something and it being interpretted as snarky, versus someone who is so annoyed at content that they are intentionally snarky." - One of the original examples in the blog post that started this round ("And this is tagged Javascript why?”) is exactly how a non-native English speaker at my workplace phrases things.
    – Izkata
    Commented Jul 15, 2018 at 17:54
  • 2
    (Just as an aside, the other reason I only half-agree about letting someone else respond instead is that I taught students, in person, for three years in college. Occasional well-placed snark can work really well to disarm people and make them reexamine their preconceptions. It's a useful tool and shouldn't be totally discarded because a small number of people find it unwelcoming.)
    – Izkata
    Commented Jul 17, 2018 at 2:32
65

I was going to write an answer on how I think we are not that diverse... we are all programmers, professionals and enthusiasts (or at least aim to be). Then I wanted to make an argument about how I think the most obvious form of "unhelpful" is silently walking away. I googled something because the exact translation into English eluded me. And what I found blew my mind (sorry for the clickbaity sentence, but it's true). We are very different in our most basic assumptions about helping others.


I think we all agree that anything posted in bad faith (insults, racial slurs, other obviously opposite-of-nice stuff) needs to be removed and offenders need to be punished.

However, what the new Code of Conduct is saying is that if you fail in helping by making a mistake in tone, you will be held accountable. If in doubt, do not help at all.

Most of us agree that the examples posted as "unhelpful" were not good enough. They were mistakes out of frustration or just missing the right tone. But none of them were in bad faith. None of them were just to harm others. They were mistakes, everyone makes mistakes sometimes.

Now, I don't want to say that a question about programming and being in need of help physically are in the same ballpark. But laws and regulations are taught time and again and form how we think about things. And the above reasoning is something that is completely alien to many Europeans.

In the US, as far as I could tell, helping somebody is not mandatory. If that person dies while you walk away... /shrug/ too bad. If you do help that person, you better know what you are doing, because if you make a mistake, you need to get a good lawyer and find an applicable local state law to not be held liable.

In the common law of most English-speaking countries, there is no general duty to come to the rescue of another. Generally, a person cannot be held liable for doing nothing while another person is in peril

In large parts of Europe (certainly in my home country) it's the exact opposite. Walking away from somebody in need of help is a crime. Any good faith attempt at helping makes you immune to any prosecution, even if the result is harmful. The fact that helping even if making harmful mistakes is better than doing nothing is drilled into people with every first aid course they take (and that's at least one if you want to get a drivers licence).

In Germany, failure to provide assistance is a crime under section 323(c) of the German Criminal Code: any citizen is obligated to provide assistance in case of an accident or general danger if necessary, and is normally immune from prosecution if assistance given in good faith and following the reasonable man's understanding of required measures turns out to be harmful.

So I don't say any of those laws are applicable or any of the questions we have are comparable to real life distress. But how we handle real life situations certainly forms our view how we expect that giving help in general is handled.


TL;DR That you can be punished for a good faith attempt at helping when you make a mistake is very alien to me based on my non-US upbringing.

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    While I understand the analogy, "good samaritan" laws in pretty much everywhere in the US protect good-faith/non-negligent attempts at helping.
    – mbrig
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:44
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    @mbrig Perhaps, but it doesn't stop the person they were helping from suing them, forcing them to spend time and money defending themselves. I know I wouldn't want to help someone if there was a chance I had to go to court because they think I did something wrong/don't have insurance/looking for a payday.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 15:21
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    @fbueckert There's also nothing stopping them from suing you for not helping. Merely filing a suit has very very few restrictions.
    – mbrig
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 15:26
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    @mbrig For that, they'd have to know who you were. If you just walked away, chances of that are negligible.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 15:26
  • @fbueckert I suppose, but if you decide all your actions out of worry that somebody will sue you for something that is explicitly allowed, well, you won't lead much of a life. I'm not 100% certain, but couldn't someone also file a frivolous in most of Europe?
    – mbrig
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 15:29
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    @mbrig I think it's a societal and cultural shift; here in Canada, medical care is taken care of. People aren't going to sue you because they can't cover their bills, so that limits much of the incentive to sue. I believe the US also has a bit of a reputation as a litigious lot, creating an active disincentive to help. I'm not sure how prevalent that is in Europe.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 15:35
  • Canada's legal system also limits the desirability of a frivolous lawsuit. Quite often the loser pays the court costs, adding significant risk of loss if you're just suing in case you get lucky. Unfortunately fear of further loss also keeps legitimate complaints out of the system. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 22:28
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    helping somebody is not mandatory. If that person dies while you walk away... /shrug/ too bad. If you do help that person, you better know what you are doing, because if you make a mistake, you need to get a good lawyer and find an applicable local state law to not be held liable Um, Good Samaritan laws are a thing...You sure you aren't thinking of China? Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 22:37
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    @Draco18s Good samaritan laws are "applicable local state laws" because they are not nationwide and vary by state. Your case might be covered in one, but not in another. They also only give you protection when you help, walking away not helping still seems the safest alternative if you go by the letters of the law.
    – nvoigt
    Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 7:07
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    @Draco18s By your own link, in my state, the the law only applies if you've already been trained & certified in whatever you tried to do to help. The vast majority of the population are not, so the law doesn't apply. And for example, per nvoigt's discovery, the very first thing we're taught in school about CPR is: Don't even try if you're not trained, because you will mess up and cause more harm than good.
    – Izkata
    Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 23:55
  • @Izkata Requiring CPR training is a reasonable thing IMO, as without proper training you can cause more harm than good. This is still a far cry from China's state a couple years ago. However, point made. Commented Jul 15, 2018 at 2:15
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    If you see a bad question, you can help by explaining why it is bad, and suggesting improvement. You can do it in 2 ways - the nice way (which we all want) or the unwelcoming way (by mistake). The analogy is, normal people will try to help, and risk being called off as rude. While the American culture suggests doing nothing, in order to avoid the risk.
    – anatolyg
    Commented Jul 15, 2018 at 17:05
  • @usr2564301 consider rephrasing: "So, when I read a question and I know the answer, I am required to answer it?" to "So, when I read a question and I can provide resolution, I am required to resolve it?". It important to value answering and closing as equally valuable services by our knowledgeable community. Commented Aug 16, 2018 at 4:43
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TL;DR

You are absolutely correct that with varying cultural expectations we'll never make everyone feel welcome, plus some people expect for some reason to be handled with extra care they neither deserve nor need. We just need to make a statistical shift in the percentage of people who feel unwelcome.

Longer answer:

At the risk of repeating myself, I think we're being overly concrete in our discussion of this topic. My understanding is that we're trying to shift a statistical trend over time and thousands of people, not have a deterministic algorithm that lets us 'be nice' in every conceivable situation where little Billy's tiny feelings might be hurt. Maybe I've misunderstood the goal here, but there will always be false positives where we hammer down on someone interested who just happened to (through ignorance or temporary carelessness) ask a bad question and false negatives where we let a bad question slide (through lack of policing or deliberate inaction). The powers that be seem to want to turn the dial towards the false negative end.

I also think the phrasing thing is a bit of a red herring. Consider this question and the following possible responses:

I need to build an e-commerce site what do I need PLEASE HELP!

Responses:

  1. Stackoverflow is not a code writing service!
  2. QQ ya noob/RTFM
  3. Closed with no comments and 3+ DVs for being off-topic/too broad
  4. This site is for specific programming questions and does not recommend tutorials. That's pretty broad: is there a specific piece of it you're having trouble with?

1 & 2 while perhaps true are not exactly welcoming, doubt there's much controversy there but people do write such responses. Heck, I write those responses when I see someone with enough rep to know better write a crappy question. Number 4 is probably the desired response, and while it may seem like a lot of effort for a throw-away question it's pretty general purpose and can be copy-pasted over and over.

The problematic one is 3: that's totally within the rules but is kind of harsh from the perspective of a new user. We should probably try to turn those into 4.

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    Completely second this. There will be no straight line between welcoming and unwelcoming. It will be a windy uphill road. When we want to force it to be a straight one the incline will be so steep everyone falls down! But what we do all know (hopefully) is that the track through the woods isn't any good either, so lets stick to the road and don't get too upset with someone cutting corners.
    – Luuklag
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:00
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    Given what has happened with the issue so far, I'll stick with (3). It's way safer for me. Popping up my username as the author of any kind of comment is now just target-painting:( Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:54
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    While I think it's unfortunate, I don't think @MartinJames's paranoia is irrational, here. Considering that I've been told by some users that using the word "even" in the phrase "this code doesn't even compile" is unwelcoming because it places emphasis on what the user did wrong, I'm pretty sure that 4 - in which you've italicised "specific" for emphasis - would still be considered unwelcoming by a lot of the "welcoming" side. Option 1 might well be considered preferable.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:59
  • 1
    I'd normally respond with a combination of 1 and 4 to a question like that. However, AFAICS the CoC will push people towards 3 rather than 4. How that is supposed to be "welcoming" is beyond me. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 22:19
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    @MartinJames: I have had a few instances of "suspicious" downvotes on old posts occurring within minutes/hours of having left a comment explaining to a user their answer was wrong (and downvoting it). Every single time it's made me smile. Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 10:49
  • @AnsgarWiechers 'How that is supposed to be "welcoming" is beyond me' - it's not welcoming, or supposed to be welcoming. It's merely the least-unwelcoming. Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 15:34
  • @MartinJames That is debatable, at the very least. Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 16:17
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    I'm going to agree with @MartinJames and others here - just want to point to the post where SE pointed to an analysis of the Tumbleweed badge which supports the No feedback is worse (or at least less welcoming) than negative feedback statements Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 17:21
  • I thought for a second there with (3) you meant leaving a comment that says that, which was a bit confusing. Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 22:16
  • 1
    Stack Exchange itself could probably make a large difference in (3). Most of the messages users are shown (especially the "negative" ones) could probably be a bit more tactful. Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 22:20
  • @Dukeling totally agree, the "primarily opinion based" one is pretty tactful compared to most of the others. Commented Jul 15, 2018 at 0:57
  • 'No feedback is worse (or at least less welcoming) than negative feedback' not from where the commenter/downvoter is standing, it isn't. It's now prudent and preferable. It is impossible to flag me as r/a, or copypasta me to any blog/tatter, if I just don't post anything. See? Welcoming to me! Commented Jul 15, 2018 at 19:15
  • Indeed; general rule the mods don't get. Form letters and form indicators only have as much information content as the keystrokes required to select them.
    – Joshua
    Commented Jul 15, 2018 at 19:53
0

Note: I'm just using "offensive" for simplicity here - feel free to mentally substitute that for "unwelcoming" if you wish (apart from the sentence which contains both - that may be confusing).

The way I imagine it, we have the following:

  • Things almost everyone can all agree are offensive

    For example, swearing, blatant sarcasm or degradation.

    These comments are already basically taken care of as it stands.

  • Things most agree is at least a bit offensive (or "offensive" by another name)

    For example, light sarcasm or being condescending or snarky.

    Some appear to agree that there are comments which are not entirely polite, and that they can be improved, but absolutely refuse to call them "offensive", "rude" or even "unwelcoming", which is a problem in itself, but I digress.

    I think this is mostly where the problem lies.

    Since most people agree on this, it shouldn't be too hard to classify and deal with it.

    Even if it's not a majority, but say 30%, or even 10%, it should still be easy enough to classify, although we'll need a lot more data, and dealing with it would still be a priority, since we can probably agree that alienating even 10% of our user-base (including long-time users) probably isn't a good idea.

    Would dealing with this alienate the rest of users? I assume this would only alienate those who completely refuse to be considerate of others if they can't understand their reasoning (despite knowing perfectly well what is causing offence). I don't really see that as a problem.

  • Things the general public won't find offensive, but someone with a specific background may

    For example, using a word that's also a lesser-known way to offensively refer to a specific race.

    This could be someone with a specific nationality, race, religion, general upbringing or whatever else.

    It can be really hard for others to tell that something may cause offense in this manner and, in some cases, most may not ever consider it justified to be offended.

    Although I think such comments are in the minority, and not really the focus here (at least not the short-term focus).

  • Things that are "entirely" neutral / blunt (and constructive)

    This may overlap with some of the above.

    This is perhaps the most difficult problem to deal with (although I'm not sure how big this problem is), and might require some discussion of its own.

    Some people may just not understand why others require a bit of fluff around their criticism.

    In some cases, they may just have no idea when fluff should and shouldn't be added, which would make it really hard for them to "fix" from their end, thus they may no longer be able to leave "appropriate" comments.

    In other cases, they do understand when it would be needed, but they just refuse to add it because they see it as unnecessary - for me, that's somewhat harder to sympathize with (I personally would also prefer to not add such things, but I can see how it could make others feel more welcome, so I wouldn't be against requiring a bit of that).

    In other cases still, they may find the fluff itself to be offensive, which may make it a hard situation to deal with (since you'll be offending people with or without it).

    There may be a compromise somewhere in the middle there - with "Give us the input you're using" on the one side, and "Hey, welcome to Stack Overflow. How are you liking it here? So, I was wondering, if it isn't too much trouble, can you please give us the input you're using? It would be much appreciated, thanks. It would really help us to answer your question. Let me know if there's anything else I can do for you." on the other side (which is going totally overboard), there's plenty of room in the middle.

    Although I suspect this also isn't really the problem we're trying to deal with here (at least not primarily).

    Some may also argue that something else is neutral, when it's most definitely not (and they likely know as much, at least somewhere deep down).

  • Variances in thickness of skin

    Some people may be offended by basically nothing, while others may be offended by basically everything.

    The former isn't really a problem, as long as they can refrain from offending others.

    The latter may be a problem, but that shouldn't really be the focus of this (we're trying to take a step in the right direction, not stop offending absolutely everyone no matter what it takes).

    I'd like to believe that most people have at least roughly equally thick skin.

This is not a social network or discussion forum

We should focus on the questions and answers anyway - things that are likely to cause offense don't, for the most part, belong anywhere here anyway - in most cases it wouldn't help improve a post (in which case you shouldn't say it).

In summary

I don't think dealing with this has as big a problem as you make it out there is.

15
  • 3
    "they do understand when it would be needed, but they just refuse ... that's somewhat harder to sympathize with" - imagine that what was being demanded was something that you would personally find rude (let's for fun imagine an alternative universe in which we get told to address all new female posters as "darling" to strike a friendlier tone) and it should be easy enough to sympathise with those of us who don't share the staff's notions of politeness. Adding a bunch of cheerful fluff would, in my view, make my comments sound insincere and patronising, so I don't want to do it.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:34
  • 1
    @MarkAmery Edited. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:41
  • I think this breakdown now covers the cases pretty well... but I think there's a couple of sub-cases that fall under "Things most agree is at least a bit offensive" that merit thinking about differently. On the one hand, you can imagine an otherwise polite criticism with an only-slightly-offensive personal jab tacked on the end. Just posting the polite criticism minus the jab would be strictly less effort; the only reason you'd argue in favour of posting the jab is if you think that deliberate incivility has a role in weeding out bad users. On the other hand, you've got comments like ...
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:51
  • 3
    ... the ones from stackoverflow.blog/2018/07/10/…, where, sure, I can see how most of them come across a bit curt, but finding a way to frame the point more nicely might be an extra minute or two of work for me, and more for someone whose English isn't great. There there's a real tradeoff between politeness and the volume of useful output that commenters can produce - or, if they're not heavy contributors, then just in the amount of their personal time that we demand they invest in order to contribute their point.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:53
  • @MarkAmery For 3 of those 5, you can also just remove the offending sentence. I'll agree that the other two might be a bit hard to rephrase. Although one seems a bit too borderline, and probably shouldn't have been included as an example, and the other (presumably) involves an extremely common use case (telling someone to fix a problem they need to fix before the question is answerable), which should give even an occasional contributor plenty of opportunities to think what's the best response. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:25
  • It may be illustrative of the fact that people often don't parse comments in the same way that I'm far from sure which 3 of those 5 you think can be "fixed" by just removing a sentence. I guess you mean 1 (remove first sentence) and 4 (remove first sentence), and that you definitely don't mean 2, but I'm sure which out of 3 and 5 you think is fixable by removing a sentence, nor which sentence you'd remove from either of them. And I also think the removals of the first sentence from 1 and 4 would remove content beyond just removing an insult.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:30
  • 1
    In particular, to me the first sentence in 1 conveys "I'm not willing to continue participating in a lengthy conversation about this if you won't actually try the things I suggest, so either do that or stop replying to me" - which is innately hard to phrase politely, but a request I think someone has the right to make - and the first in 4 is pointing out to the asker that the error is written in readable English and means what it says, and that they should read it and aim to understand what's actually written in the message (something which beginners are often too intimidated to even try).
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:34
  • 1
    There are probably drastically friendlier ways to phrase both of those points than the wording chosen in the first sentences of 1 or 4. But coming up with those ways is not quick or easy, at least for me - which is precisely my point when I say that not tolerating those comments amounts to a demand that commenters invest much more time in order to contribute the same commentary.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:38
  • @MarkAmery Telling someone something is self-explanatory doesn't seem constructive (even if I may also have said that plenty of times myself). That's basically "wow, that's so obvious, how can you not figure this out yourself?". Explaining how you interpret it (assuming there's at least something you can explain) would probably be more helpful. Or a "as the error should tell you" can already be better. 5 is basically just entirely bad and I suspect nothing written in "..." would justify even posting that comment at all. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:53
  • 1
    @MarkAmery The first sentence in 1 and all of 5 goes back to "this is not a discussion forum" - instead of repeating yourself or expressing your frustrating with them not listening to you, just stop commenting and move on. You don't need to get in the last word - if they're not listening to you, there's little to no benefit to keeping the discussion going. It will just leave a bad taste in both of your mouths. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 14:54
  • 4
    One presumes that "how you interpret it" is precisely what would be explained in the "You need to check" bit of the comment; it's not obvious to me that phrasing the first bit as "The error is self-explanatory." is any less civil than phrasing it as "As the error should tell you". If anything, the latter seems more critical of the asker, to my ears - the former phrasing at least permits the interpretation that it was reasonable for the asker not to realise that the error was self-explanatory, while your proposed rephrasing explicitly asserts that they should have known what it meant.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 15:01
  • 1
    As for 5, I probably agree that it's just plain not constructive as written in the blog post, and am being biased by the fact that I know that it's not genuinely representative of any real comment and has been formed by the staff taking an actually useful comment (shown at meta.stackoverflow.com/q/370792/1709587) suggesting that the user provide an MCVE showing what failed when they attempted the commenter's previous suggestion, then slicing off the main useful bit so that it looks like nothing but an unconstructive jab.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 15:03
  • 4
    Most of those things are subjective and depend on both the cultural background and language skills. I have seen examples of 'condescending' comments floating around that I simply cannot tell what would be condescending about it. I have regularly seen comments that can be read as perfectly polite but also as passive-aggressive sarcasm depending on cultural assumptions. Similarly the bluntness that you seem to think is unwanted/bad, is considered a virtue in my culture (ok that is slightly exaggerated, but still). Adding fluff is seen as distracting and a sign of insecurity. Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 10:46
  • 2
    Promoting fluff is not helpful.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 21:21
  • 5
    @MarkRotteveel "I have seen examples of 'condescending' comments floating around that I simply cannot tell what would be condescending about it" - yeah, me too - and also supposed examples of polite comments that to my ears seem so laden in contempt for the recipient that if I were on the receiving end I'd want to reach through the monitor and punch the commenter in the face.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 15, 2018 at 9:09
-2

By following this easy two-step plan:

  1. Ignore the opinions of a large number of users.
  2. Label those users as "unwelcoming", thus legitimizing their disenfranchisement.
1
  • 7
    Is this meant to be ironic?
    – user9455968
    Commented Jul 15, 2018 at 7:32
-8

[H]ow will we arrive at an actionable definition of “unwelcoming”?

Organically through trial and error. With plenty of feedback and discussion. And with user traffic statistics. If it turns out that the typical user prefers blunt comments or sarcasm, then I'm sure that Stack Overflow might create a different initiative. I personally doubt this will happen, but we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. I think we shouldn't let perfection stand in the way of incremental improvement.

Honestly, I see the call to action around the unwelcoming stuff as being a reminder that we expect professionalism and patience on Stack Overflow. It's a reminder that there is a real human being on the other side of the text you are reading, and that should be one of the considerations when commenting.

The problem I have with this goal is that ["unwelcoming"] is borderline impossible to define. From the direction the staff are going in, they're going to try and act on unwelcoming comments first.

This isn't the whole picture. Don't forget the UI changes to the question dialog to help alleviate the issue from the new user side. As for the experienced users, we already know how to deal with the egregious stuff. And we can even edit posts that are problematic yet redeemable (even if they aren't our own posts). We cannot do that for comments, so it's important to remind users that their "temporary" are actually less fixable than posts. Any mistakes in comments can really only be solved with deletion.

I've noticed a few users suggesting that not knowing if their borderline comment is "unwelcoming" is preventing them from posting it. Discouraging users from posting comments they can't classify as "definitely not unwelcoming" is a good thing. It takes less effort to avoid comments than it does to comment. The unwelcoming focus is a reminder that if you do decide to take the effort to comment, please don't do it halfway and write comments that are actually useful, respectful, and don't create more problems than they solve (e.g. by raising moderator flag).

9
  • 12
    "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all." completely misses the more important audience -- the other users reading the answers and comments, who need to be warned away from dangerous recommendations
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 14, 2018 at 21:26
  • 4
    Err, on "If it turns out that the typical user prefers": Facebook had to change its algos precisely because maximising engagement (and the time users spend on the site) leads to promotion of divisive content. reuters.com/article/us-facebook-results/…
    – Nemo
    Commented Jul 15, 2018 at 7:24
  • "with user traffic statistics…we expect professionalism" So, if I understand you correctly, SO volunteers are expected to make the site as commercially successful as possible, as their professional duty? Commented Jul 16, 2018 at 3:34
  • @BenVoigt isn't that what edits/competing answers are for? Also, it's disingenuous to classify any disagreement/dissent as unwelcoming/not nice. Please treat the typical SO users like human beings who know how to raise a counterargument without calling the poster dumb.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jul 16, 2018 at 12:44
  • @BenVoigt The very next paragraph I wrote actually clarifies that, asking people to take the effort to write "useful, respectful" comments. Regardless, you're right that the tongue-in-cheek advice was easily misinterpreted, so I've edited that out.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jul 16, 2018 at 13:33
  • 1
    @ryanyuyu: Mom's advice was not ungrammatical. She meant to use an adjective. (On the assumption that she was repeating the stock proverb, which I've heard myself no small number of times) It's good for most interpersonal interactions, but not universal. And even saying things nicely cannot come at the expense of clarity. The situations aren't hard to recognize when you see them and when they crop up, being accurate, clear, and nice is best, but accurate, clear, and blunt also must be acceptable.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 16, 2018 at 13:37
  • Sure, I never said anything to the contrary. Or did I? It's hard to proofread your own work. Also, I'm a bit confused as why advice that is "good for most interpersonal interactions, but not universal" is getting so much scrutiny. Is that not the goal for the "welcoming" stuff @BenVoigt?
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jul 16, 2018 at 13:58
  • 2
    @ryanyuyu: Because formal policies need to be written to handle the edge cases.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Jul 16, 2018 at 14:00
  • Ok. Fair enough. I guess I just didn't consider the welcoming stuff to be enforceable, but that does seem to be where it's going. It's too bad it's gotten to the point where we're having to enforce general advice for interpersonal interactions. Thanks for the clarifications @BenVoigt
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Jul 16, 2018 at 14:11
-25

Are these definitions of "Unwelcoming" inconsistent?

  • Cambridge:

    not making a guest or visitor feel happy, comfortable, or wanted:

  • Merriam Webster:

    not giving pleasure to the mind or senses

  • Collins:

    If someone is unwelcoming, or if they behave in an unwelcoming way, they are unfriendly or hostile when you visit or approach them.

  • MacMillan:

    behaving in an unfriendly way because you are not pleased to see someone

  • Oxford:

    1. Having an inhospitable or uninviting quality,
    2. (of a person or their expression) not friendly towards a guest or new arrival.
  • Wiktionary:

    Lacking in hospitality, accessibility and cordiality.

To address this:

I find comments with lots of phrasing and lots of couching and encouragement wrapping criticism to be rude and condesecending: They waste my time and I know it's insincere.

Well I personally feel the same way, but I understand that others like some sugar-coating or at least some verbosity that indicates mutual respect to go with their criticism. I don't personally consider either style, sugar coating or lack thereof, "unwelcoming".

Here's some things that are unwelcoming - based on a synthesis of the above definitions and my own moderation experience:

  • ad hominem criticism (one should critique the content, not the person).
  • making people feel unwanted.
  • escalating back-and-forth (no-one needs to have the last word - your best improvement suggestion was probably the first one anyways.)
  • putting your own ego above the quality and reputation of the site.
  • rhetorical flourishes that only serve to make the commenter (and their supporting critics) feel good, such as:
    • I'm not going to sugar-coat it, ...
    • There's no nice way to say it, ...
    • Let me google that for you...
    • ... but you would have known that had you read the man page/book.

I just cleaned up a comment thread that began with something like "if you had googled... you would have found <useful link>", to which the asker gave a nominally rude response (noting the rudeness of the first!), and the original commenter gave another rude response. I immediately deleted the two follow ups, and edited out everything but the purportedly useful link from the first.

Yes, there's an element of human judgment involved, but that's why moderators are elected.

Treat your fellow users with respect, and flag when you see behavior that isn't.

Don't respond to rudeness, just flag it.

Remember that new users will treat other users the way that they feel that you treat them.

Try to model good behavior for new users - do not demonstrate impatience. If you lose patience, please just walk away (metaphorically or even literally).

Let's all try to be more "Welcoming" - as best as we can each individually tell what that is. There is no rule against being nice.

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  • 4
    Doesn't literally everything you just listed already fall under being deletable as noise or because of be-nice violations? The new push is obviously supposed to add something on top of that, not re-contextualize already recognized misconduct, no?
    – Magisch
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:21
  • 28
    FWIW, I'm opposed to editing comments for tone. If you think a comment has technical merit but is rude, delete it and post what you think is be a more polite variant under your own name. If you edit but your judgement of tone is off (or just doesn't match that of the original commenter), you'll be attributing a ruder variant (or what they consider to be a ruder variant) to the commenter with no publicly-visible indication that it wasn't really written by them. (e.g. I generally don't dump bare links without explanation - I think it comes across dismissive - and would be upset by your edit.)
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:35
  • 3
    @Magisch - FWIW, I'm with you that those examples already ran afoul of the Be Nice policy before this recent "welcoming" push. But I saw them a lot, and saw them not getting deleted a lot. And to me (can't speak for SE), that was a problem. (A problem I'd been known to be a part of.) Now I'm seeing them less, and seeing them getting pushback more and being deleted more. I don't know what SE's goal was, but that's an effect I'm seeing of the recent discussion, so...result? :-) Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:35
  • 20
    @MarkAmery - Big time. If my words are unacceptable, a mod should remove them, not pick-and-choose, or put words in my mouth. Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:37
  • 1
    I would think that reasonable people may disagree here. I don't have time to write a comment of my own, perhaps I don't even have time to verify that a link is good, but I can see that the original post intended to provide value while some of it was unhelpful. I would prefer to remove the decidedly unhelpful parts, leaving the ostensibly valuable part, and move on.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:42
  • 6
    @AaronHall So write "A commenter shared this link, which she thought was relevant: example.com. I deleted her comment because I felt its tone was unacceptable, but thought I should mention the link in case it is useful." You don't need to evaluate the technical merit of the link to repost it.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:44
  • 1
    FWIW, my personal canonical example of comment editing by mods gone wrong: ux.meta.stackexchange.com/q/3130/47336. I still find it hard to fathom that they thought their edited version was politer - to my ear, it warps my admittedly harshly-worded technical criticism into an embarrassingly deranged moral condemnation of the answerer - but somehow they did. Having witnessed that makes me very conscious of just how much standards of politeness differ between different users, here.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:46
  • 3
    Mark, I think that's very unrealistic. If I cannot edit the comment, I'll have to delete it altogether. If I have to choose between reposting the link as you did, or not, I'll simply move on. It takes 2 seconds and a few button pushes to delete offending words. It may take a full minute to type up and double check a custom message, and I'd usually much rather be doing almost anything else.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:51
  • 19
    @AaronHall I don't think it's unrealistic - but if I can't convince you that it's worth your time to do, then just delete and move on when you find yourself in that scenario. That's still better than attributing a comment to somebody that they didn't write. Especially one that, in your own (hopefully hyperbolic) words, you've only spent "2 seconds" considering the tone of. Maybe coming from a culture where "false attribution" is illegal alters my perception of this, but I just don't think it's okay at all.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 12:55
  • 4
    @MarkAmery I'll keep your perspective in mind. I never change the meaning of a comment, and sometimes removing something like "how stupid!" from an end makes it completely salvaged, and no one could claim the rest wasn't correctly attributed. But maybe I'm too precious with the material anyways.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 13:02
  • You state that you find sugar coated messages rude and condescending (by agreeing with magisch's statement), but not unwelcoming. I don't see how those can coexist with you given definitions of unwelcoming. By your definitions, not unwelcoming would mean that it is pleasing to the mind or senses or, making a guest or visitor feel comfortable, happy, and wanted. Could you clarify/reword that part, because the way I read it, you are stating that being rude and condescending is welcoming, which I don't think is what you are trying to say.
    – Dragonrage
    Commented Jul 13, 2018 at 16:00
  • I suggest you take a look at nvoigt's answer; there's similar underlying assumptions in this answer that he only just discovered while writing up his.
    – Izkata
    Commented Jul 15, 2018 at 0:17
  • "delete offending words" -- there's a reason why I write earlier exempting strike-through from my position of almost never edit comments.
    – Joshua
    Commented Jul 15, 2018 at 23:25
  • 1
    To be honest, the set of definitions at the top of the answer come across as condescending. I know you didn't mean it that way, but before reading the rest of the answer, those definitions give the impression that "go get a dictionary if you don't know what 'unwelcoming' means." I guess that speaks about the subjectiveness of this whole issue as well. Commented Jul 16, 2018 at 5:40
  • 7
    @NisargShah More importantly, they don't back up the point Aaron is trying to make, which I think is why he's been so heavily downvoted. For one thing, he's only got US and UK dictionaries and Wiktionary in there, but even if that weren't the case, the illogic of pointing to different cultures' dictionary definitions to argue that "welcoming" means the same thing in both becomes obvious if you try the same trick with "moral" or even "legal". The dictionary will say the same thing across cultures, but that does not mean all humans have the same moral values and all nations have identical laws.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jul 16, 2018 at 7:53

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