Timeline for With a userbase as diverse as Stack Overflow's, how will we arrive at an actionable definition of "unwelcoming"?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
38 events
when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Jul 17, 2018 at 2:32 | comment | added | Izkata | (Just as an aside, the other reason I only half-agree about letting someone else respond instead is that I taught students, in person, for three years in college. Occasional well-placed snark can work really well to disarm people and make them reexamine their preconceptions. It's a useful tool and shouldn't be totally discarded because a small number of people find it unwelcoming.) | |
Jul 17, 2018 at 2:26 | comment | added | Izkata | @AaronLS (2/2) The problem is that "snarkiness" is being determined by a third party, one that doesn't know if the poster is ESL or acting like that intentionally. That's why I advocate for leniency (what you see as "justifying intentional rudeness") and one of the reasons why I only half-agree with your "let someone else reply"; your measuring stick is your own experience. What's snarky to one person is not to another, and whether the reason is low-quality posts setting them off or simply ESL, you can't really tell from the one comment alone. | |
Jul 17, 2018 at 2:25 | comment | added | Izkata | @AaronLS (1/2) Nope, your two comments are in (minor) conflict when it comes to ESL, that's what I was trying to point out. You've stated that ESL comments can be interpreted as snarky (I agree), and that if you are being intentionally snarky you should just stop and let someone else reply (I half-agree). You also object to low-quality content being a good justification for intentional snarkiness (irrelevant to my point). | |
Jul 16, 2018 at 19:49 | comment | added | AaronLS | @Iztaka It's as if I said cows should get sunlight, and you responded and made several points about how sheep are fluffy. You've stated valid facts, but they are out of context of my comment. So it's impossible for me to respond and reinforce my point of view by diasgreeing with you, since your points are valid, but they simply do not correlate. Both facts are true and not mutually exclusive. You solve problems by decomposing them, and my goal was to address a specific decomposition of the problem. | |
Jul 16, 2018 at 19:43 | comment | added | AaronLS | @Iztaka In other words, nothing I said argues against what you are saying, because that wasn't what I was addressing. I've agreed with your points, regardless of the fact they don't have anything to do with post quality correlation stated in the answer that I was specifically addressing. | |
Jul 16, 2018 at 19:41 | comment | added | AaronLS | @Izkata I was only addressing the false correlation between post quality and intentional snarkness. You are addressing misinterpreted rudeness of non-native speakers, which is relevant to the parent question and I agree valid, but not at all relevant to my comment. So in the context of replying to my comment it's completely irrelevant. "am a step past that" you mean you took my comment completely out of context. | |
Jul 16, 2018 at 18:49 | comment | added | Izkata | @AaronLS I had both of them in mind when I wrote my comment, and am a step past that: If you can't tell the difference between a user being intentionally snarky and an ESL user, then punishing users for snarkiness would be punishing ESL users for no good reason. Going after snarkiness based on the comment alone is a bad idea, and IMO is a really good reason to defend at least some snarkiness leniency. | |
Jul 16, 2018 at 16:06 | comment | added | AaronLS | @Izkata What's your point? I'm not arguing against that. I'm not saying it's not an issue, it's just not what I'm discussing. It is an issue, but I'm not talking about that. I'm responding to a very specific section in this answer. You need to go back to my original comment for some context. | |
Jul 16, 2018 at 7:40 | comment | added | user541686 | @MartinJames: Moreover, you can't have the well-established users constantly getting pissed off and frustrated and then expect them to somehow be welcoming to newbies. I mean, you could expect it, but I don't think you can get it. If they keep getting shut down (by the site admins or by each other) every time they come across something they find interesting, they won't have much reason to be very forgiving or try to help improve the content when newcomers dump CS 101 homework questions on them. They run the site after all (at least purportedly). And attitude trickles down from the top. | |
Jul 16, 2018 at 7:34 | comment | added | user541686 | @MartinJames: By demanding them to be similar in number, you're explicitly going out of your way to miss the point. Think about it: if SO only had basic/superficial questions, many experienced users would eventually get bored and leave. The reason many of them stick around is so they can ask/answer more interesting/advanced questions once in a while so they get something out of it too. In the process, they of course try to help the other users too. So if you think the long-term users are valuable and worth keeping around, you can't just focus on newcomers. You gotta avoid pissing them off too. | |
Jul 16, 2018 at 6:51 | comment | added | Martin James | @Mehrdad 'I don't think what you're trying to do is blessed...',I'm frustrated that...' you have examples of these? I mean, like dozens of examples from the last week, similar in number to the number of no-effort, low-quality, 'Computer 101' homework dumps? | |
Jul 15, 2018 at 23:02 | comment | added | user541686 | Also, people often downvote/close/delete questions that are duplicates (esp. C tag users), but that has nothing to do with the content itself being low-quality. They're just taking out their frustration at the OP who purportedly didn't do their due diligence. Again: low-quality content misses a huge part of the picture. And finally, StackExchange actively pisses off its user base via some of its policies (like constantly moving comments to chat). You cannot blame this on the users posting low-quality content. | |
Jul 15, 2018 at 22:58 | comment | added | user541686 | I don't know what you mean by "low-quality content", but if you're referring to newbies posting low-quality questions and/or answers, it misses a huge part of the picture. Namely, well-established users can often be antagonistic even against normal-quality posts, for reasons that are not always explicit, but which, if you hang around long enough, you'll understand. In my experience they range from "I don't think what you're trying to do is blessed by your framework, hence I'll downvote/close/delete" to "I'm frustrated that I don't know the precise answer, so I'll just shut this down". | |
Jul 15, 2018 at 19:49 | comment | added | Joshua | I generally agree with you but be careful. I often hang out in reopen getting of really bad close votes. | |
Jul 15, 2018 at 17:54 | comment | added | Izkata | @AaronLS "There's a big difference between a non-native speaker saying something and it being interpretted as snarky, versus someone who is so annoyed at content that they are intentionally snarky." - One of the original examples in the blog post that started this round ("And this is tagged Javascript why?”) is exactly how a non-native English speaker at my workplace phrases things. | |
Jul 15, 2018 at 16:20 | comment | added | Jean-François Fabre Mod | TL;DR "We need to take care of our long term user base" alone gets you a +1 | |
Jul 15, 2018 at 10:03 | comment | added | user3956566 | @jpp ah there's a chicken pox vaccine lol Yeh I see. It doesn't help to scratch, and it causes scars on the skin. We need a balm to help relieve the itch. So a way to remove the scabs quickly and seamlessly without causing scarring to the site. | |
Jul 15, 2018 at 10:01 | comment | added | jpp | @YvetteColomb, So the bad posts keep on coming (a bit unpredictably, and incurably, like chicken-pox). You need to avoid irritation. So you don't post snarky / sarcastic comments. If you think the solution is to prevent chicken-pox from coming in the first place, this is wishful. It'll come (in most cases) no matter what. People will still have questions. You can make it a little harder for them to post bad questions, but never prevent them entirely. You can help get ride of bad posts sooner, but there's still time for scratching / snarky comments. | |
Jul 15, 2018 at 9:37 | comment | added | user3956566 | @jpp I'm a little confused how you're applying this analogy to our site? | |
Jul 15, 2018 at 9:28 | comment | added | jpp | Taking the "treat the disease, not the symptom" analogy further, I see the problem more a case of chicken-pox than a curable disease. If a young child has chicken-pox, should we not recommend, or enforce [by the way of mittens], that the child does not repeatedly scratch themselves? We don't simply stand back and say, "It's not the child's fault, let him/her continue scarring themselves, really the docs need to find a cure for chicken-pox." | |
Jul 14, 2018 at 18:27 | comment | added | AaronLS | @Mark Valid points and I completely agree, but not at all relevant to Yvette's "real issue" which I was specifically objecting to. | |
Jul 14, 2018 at 18:22 | comment | added | AaronLS | @Mark There's a big difference between a non-native speaker saying something and it being interpretted as snarky, versus someone who is so annoyed at content that they are intentionally snarky. It's clear which of these was mentioned by "Why are users being snarky, sarcastic or impatient. The low quality content. " and that idea is what I objected to in my comment. You are talking about something completely different, it is relevant to the original question, but I was specifically objecting to that quote in the Yvette's answer. They're "real issue" is trying to justify intentional rudeness. | |
Jul 14, 2018 at 10:33 | comment | added | Mark Rotteveel | @AaronLS I don't see how content quality justifies why users are "being snarky, sarcastic or impatient." Those things are subjective. Add non-native speakers in the mix and you can never be sure if that snark or sarcasm was intended or just a lack of sufficient skills in English, or maybe even so basic as cultural differences between for example US and UK. There are certain ways of phrasing that an American would find perfectly polite and nice, while a Brit would read it as intentional passive-aggressive sarcasm or fake politeness. | |
Jul 14, 2018 at 8:22 | comment | added | Raedwald | Reducing the number of votes needed to close: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/348560/… | |
Jul 14, 2018 at 1:07 | comment | added | user3956566 | @snb Yes, I see the flags and I'm feeling sorry for our community. It's getting to a point that people are tied up in knots, as the most basic of comments will upset some people, and that's not our fault. If people want to use that as an excuse to bad mouth the site, well there's nothing we can do about that. In terms of improving our conduct, we needed to and we have.Not perfect, no, but it never will be. At least by taking some of the pressure off people, it will surely help. If people can delete the content, they won't feel the need to comment so much when they find another low qual post. | |
Jul 14, 2018 at 1:04 | comment | added | user3956566 | @jpmc26 I don't think the welcoming efforts are misguided as such, perhaps could have been handled better? But I'm not sure if it could have been, it's easy for me to be an arm chair critic. We needed to make a change, but we have been dismissive of our long term users and it's time that their needs were addressed. There's no point being welcoming if there's no experts left on the site because they're burnt out, or disillusioned. We at least need to say thanks to these people for putting the content on the site. | |
Jul 14, 2018 at 0:59 | comment | added | user3956566 | @AaronLS I'm not justifying snarky behaviour, I'm addressing a big cause of it and it's causing burn out and disillusionment. Our active user base needs to also be looked after. There will always be rude people and we don't accept that. However our long term user base have improved in the comment standards, so where do we go from there? Address some of the issues that have been long complained about. | |
Jul 13, 2018 at 23:32 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @AaronLS Example from today: stackoverflow.com/q/51331778/1394393. Answering questions like this isn't good for anyone. It just teaches learned helplessness and clutters the site with content no one is ever going to find helpful again. But some 141k rep user posts an answer and earns 8 more rep on it, anyway, communicating to the user that they're going to continue getting spoonfed. It's completely understandbale that a lot of users are frustrated. | |
Jul 13, 2018 at 23:25 | comment | added | jpmc26 | @AaronLS It's not a question of justification. It's a question of treating the disease instead of the symptoms. "The fact that one person can come along and demonstrate the correct way to respond indicates it's not a necessary result of bad content." This is patently untrue. Nearly all of the questions I see on the front page are the result of the OP just fundamentally having no clue what they're talking about and not being willing to sort through that phase on their own time before posting a question. Such questions are often the easiest to answer and have the least lasting value. | |
Jul 13, 2018 at 23:21 | comment | added | jpmc26 | Starting off with "We need to take care of our long term user base" made me think you were going in a completely different direction with this post than you ended up going. (Sorry for not reading all the way before my initial comment. I need to work on that more.) Are you saying that the "welcoming" efforts are completely misguided? | |
Jul 13, 2018 at 21:49 | comment | added | AaronLS | I don't see how content quality justifies why users are "being snarky, sarcastic or impatient." It's been pointed out many times that if you feel the need to comment on content and can't refrain from doing these things, just don't. Someone else who can respond professionally will come along eventually. Anyone who responds in this way is just going to generate comment wars that a mod will need to come along and cleanup. It's counter productive. The fact that one person can come along and demonstrate the correct way to respond indicates it's not a necessary result of bad content. | |
Jul 13, 2018 at 19:05 | comment | added | Krupip | Wow I did not expect this kind of answer from you, +1 indeed. | |
Jul 13, 2018 at 15:20 | comment | added | user3956566 | @RemingtonThurber that carries issues of trust (by trust I mean in judgement) the rep gives the community confidence (to a point) in the reviewers abilities to vet posts. Reducing the limit opens all sorts of cans of worms. It could be a possibility. | |
Jul 13, 2018 at 15:17 | comment | added | Remolten | What about lowering the rep threshold for the close vote privilege? | |
Jul 13, 2018 at 14:32 | history | edited | user3956566 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
deleted 129 characters in body
|
Jul 13, 2018 at 13:50 | comment | added | user3956566 | @usr2564301 look I don't mean to put anyone down, I've written some poor posts myself. It's trial and error for many people. | |
Jul 13, 2018 at 13:26 | comment | added | Bernhard Barker | I totally agree that low quality content is probably the bigger problem, but I've given up on trying to convince Stack Exchange to do something about that years ago. The question template seems like a step in the right direction, even if it's a small step, from one angle only, and indeed long overdue. | |
Jul 13, 2018 at 13:13 | history | answered | user3956566 | CC BY-SA 4.0 |