88

I've seen some weird stuff coming from high-rep users. I won't post identifying information to avoid invoking the Meta effect, but I'll try to sketch in broad terms what my concerns are.

In one case, a user with 100K+ rep upvoted (and took credit for doing so in a comment) a junk question that was later closed as "unclear" with -11 votes. I actually flagged the comment for moderation because I was concerned that the user's account had been hacked. The flag was marked "helpful".

In another case, a 15K+ user posted a question you'd expect from a brand new user in their first high school programming course. This question got a -9 score and 4 close votes before the asker deleted it.

This user has quite a few well-received and well-written questions, although the top question is a shameless request for opinions about competing libraries posted in 2015 which cannot be deleted because it serves as a dup-target. They post a lot of "which is better" opinion-based questions that get upvoted and fewer actual on-topic questions.

I try to uphold what I understand to be the guiding principle of Stack Overflow, where helping the asker is a worthwhile but ultimately secondary goal to building a long-lived resource for future users. To maintain quality, it is necessary to downvote and close questions that are low-quality using a simple criterion:

If someone else encountered a similar situation, would the contents of this question make it findable in a meaningful way, does it contain enough information for an average user with knowledge in its tags to understand the question, and is it written in a way that will attract answers of value?

My questions for Meta are (all related):

  1. Is my understanding of the Stack Overflow raison d'être still valid?

  2. These questions that are off-topic but protected by dup-target-links are like cysts in the tissue of Stack Overflow. They are not terribly damaging, but their usefulness will eventually decay, possibly into negative value territory. Is it worth putting any effort towards cleaning these up?

  3. Does this sound like I'm suffering from XKCD's "Somebody is wrong on the Internet" syndrome, so I should take a long break from Stack Overflow?

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  • 59
    It's not a trend; users like these have been around for a long time. They are still exceptions, not a rule. Your understanding about what SO is about is still correct.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 8:21
  • 37
    For example, I am pretty sure I can find your question asker from your description. That user always asks low-quality questions but a few lucky early hits have raised that user out of post-ban territory.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 8:23
  • 7
    As SO grows, more users will "move up" in reputation who don't necessarily take the ethos of the site to heart as much as most early power users did. Not a trend though.
    – Pekka
    Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 8:27
  • 23
    There are a bunch of users that don't appear to care about the quality of the site's content. There's not much we can do other than downvoting / close-voting low quality content. I usually comment asking them not to reward / encourage low quality questions with an answer, but that's usually answered with a "I won't do it again", followed by more of the same.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 9:12
  • 3
    You're perfectly right; don't stop downvoting and closing all the crap. If you've got capacity, exert some peer pressure to teach newer folks who don't understand the principles of SO. You know, shepherding the weak through the valley of darkness kind of thing. Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 12:16
  • 10
    In another an 18K user posted a question you'd expect from a brand new user in their first high school programming course. I've seen that a couple of times and in both cases the OP was asking a question about a language they'd only just started working with. (They stated as much in the question.) They got all their rep in Java but asked a question about CSS. Not to excuse it but it does help it make a little more sense how it happened.
    – BSMP
    Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 14:44
  • 5
    I think sometimes poorly formulated questions (even from otherwise knowledgeable people) can come merely because of naivety about the given subject. How can you ask a good question if you don't know enough of the lexicon of a particular language? Granted there hasn't been a specific example given so it's difficult to know specifically why the question was poorly asked.
    – Некто
    Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 16:59
  • 9
    Flagged for moderation: When you say, "In another an 18K user posted a question you'd expect from a brand new user in their first high school programming course" you are not only attacking them, but you are creating an atmosphere that shames users for stepping outside of their normal skill set, trying to make them feel bad for learning something and asking questions.
    – JGallardo
    Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 20:38
  • 11
    @JGallardo the same way we do to 1 rep users. Asking a good question is a hard requirement upheld by the site for its quality standards. That the user is a dog is irrelevant.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 14, 2017 at 2:32
  • 8
    @JGallardo: Flagged for forcing your opinion on others. Moderation is not going to accept a flag on a post that doesn't target specific users.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 14, 2017 at 6:54
  • 4
    Despite SO's best efforts, it's clear that there are some users who are just dedicated rep-farmers, and manage to game the system to make themselves look like experts when they aren't. I've seen it myself. The only defence is, not to get emotionally involved with the site to the point where you care. It's sad that people do this, but hey, not everyone is honest in this world. Commented Sep 14, 2017 at 11:07
  • 4
    @JGallardo: Telling someone you reported them isn't obnoxious? Telling me I'm obnoxious isn't condescending? Practice what you preach, dude.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 14, 2017 at 16:08
  • 4
    Furthermore, Close-voting a discussion as "Opinion based" is rather silly. Discussions are by definition opinion based, and this specific example has some very clear observations / questions that can be answered perfectly fine.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 14, 2017 at 16:14
  • 4
    @JGallardo Just a note to let you know you may have mistyped the URL you were looking for which is "stackoverflow-where-everyone-feels-good-all-the-time.com". Characterizing someone's post as elementary is not "shaming" them, nor is shaming necessarily a bad thing--actually I think we could use more of it, nor do high-rep users need your protection from some imaginary shaming. How someone interprets and responds to something is entirely up to them. If they want to feel shamed, that's their prerogative. If they don't like it, they can head off to some safer space.
    – user663031
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 4:13
  • 5
    For the record, I've declined flags from both sides on comments here. If you're going to have an extended discussion with someone, it's unreasonable to flag the comment you're replying to as "no longer needed". Also, I prefer to err on the side of not deleting Meta comments, so as not to appear that discussion is being suppressed. But...honestly, please consider posting an answer if you want to give your opinion, rather than arguing with someone in the comments.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 6:55

5 Answers 5

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To be honest, you have it all figured out. Just a bit of fatigue, it is common among highly active users such as yourself.

As for your questions:

  1. Yup, that all seems accurate.
  2. There is value in removing library questions, even old ones; even if they are dupe targets. Some have been removed. Some have been restored. It is kind of an ebb and flow. Pick one of the worst, and start a meta discussion about its value. More than likely, it will be deleted.
  3. I wish it were just an issue of not letting that one person be wrong. However, it is kind of a constant barrage of users posting low quality questions which is why moderation is so important - not only from ♦ moderators but from users like yourself. Take some time if you need it of course, but I don't think your actions indicate you are doing it wrong, so to speak.

So, there you have it. I leave you with this:

Don't forget the time you spend finding the chart to look up what you save. And the time spent reading this reminder about the time spent. And the time trying to figure out if either of those actually make sense. Remember, every second counts toward your life total, including these right now.

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    damn that fake scrollbar, you got me! Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 12:45
  • Thank you. I do believe I will take a month or two break. Commented Sep 14, 2017 at 4:19
  • @TimTisdall The scrollbar isn't fake, but it is touch-only. Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 20:30
  • 1
    @Yakk - i.imgur.com/okp66FD.gif Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 20:38
  • I believe, not taking time to properly edit image and image content are somehow linked, right? Commented Sep 16, 2017 at 9:28
  • "Pick one of the worst, and start a meta discussion about its value" no, don't do that! I've seen that unless you get some moderator to agree with you, not by popular vote but a moderator (and even then), do not force a meta discussion. Delete first, wait for a while, if nobody noticed, you did the right thing. There are people that are against all forms of deletion, and they are not too quiet either.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 16, 2017 at 9:54
  • 2
    @Braiam - So in order to avoid consensus you would rather try to sweep it under the rug? That is rather underhanded of an approach. If the community values the content, then why delete it? There is guidance all over the place that says not to delete content with value. There is absolutely no reason to delete it with some sort of coordination while no one is looking. That is a very troubling thing to suggest.
    – Travis J
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 19:07
  • @TravisJ no, in order to avoid "people that are against all forms of deletion" I do that. Consensus doesn't matter when the people that benefit the most doesn't care and those that complain doesn't care either, they just complain.
    – Braiam
    Commented Sep 18, 2017 at 20:10
40

I wouldn't use a couple of users to indicate that this was a trend. From the start of the site, high-reputation users have occasionally disagreed about what constitutes interesting content or sometimes posted dubious questions. I see no evidence that this is getting worse, and the cases I've seen of this seem to be as infrequent as they were years ago.

To your examples, I don't see any abuse in the first one. A high-reputation user came across something they found interesting in a question others downvoted. This happens all the time, and I know that I've found things of interest in bad questions. It didn't really hurt anything, and the question was downvoted and deleted in the natural course of things. Your flag was marked as being helpful by the system when the question was deleted. I didn't see any other problems with this person.

The second case is trickier. There are a few users who were grandfathered in before the question ban existed, shotgunning enough questions that a handful got voted up to the point where they can never be banned by the system. They would have been banned had this safeguard existed back then, but now aren't. There are also people who just got lucky with their first few questions and are now using that to leave many bad ones.

Moderators have special warning messages and suspension reasons for people who continue to ask very low quality questions but can never be banned by the system. We have used these on many 10k+ users, so if a high-rep user is really abusing the site by dumping a series of irredeemably bad questions, let us know via a custom flag. We'll warn them first, but if they don't improve we may have to resort to lengthy account suspensions.

Again, I don't see any trends to indicate that high-reputation users are more tolerant of bad content today than in the past.

1
  • they found interesting in a question others downvoted yep - what's on topic can be subjective at times. Also depends upon domain knowledge as to how users perceive a question.
    – user3956566
    Commented Sep 16, 2017 at 7:36
17

My post is mostly about the first case quoted by OP, i.e. a high-rep user who defended a "junk question".

It's actually quite simple: high reputation doesn't necessarily correlate strongly with involvement with the "janitorial side" of Stack Overflow.

Not all high-rep users participate in meta politics or share the "official" meta opinion about what "low quality content" is and how it must be handled, many are here just for the technical side of the things and don't care about the rest.

Since reputation is awarded according to technical contributions and not to uniformity of judgment with the majority, as long as a user posts mostly sound content his views about moderation, judgment of other posts quality and the occasional slip-up of a bad question are essentially irrelevant to his/her reputation score.

Actually, I even think that there may be an inverse correlation between high reputation and "clean up obsession". For a Stack Overflow-reply-addict (like me and I imagine many other high-rep users), even a non-stellar question is valid if it enables a useful and interesting answer. I'll quote @Hans Passant's comment below:

solid technical advice lasts forever. It is not like SO users are not constantly reminded about that when they see the typical Q+A as the top hit at Google, lazy unresearched question paired with a fantastic answer.

If I see an interesting (interesting problem but badly expressed; lazily researched but enables an explanation of an important topic from a novel angle; ...), my priority is "get the question in a decent shape before the cops come to shut it down" and then down to writing a great answer.

Ultimately, a question is good enough for me if it provokes good answers - which is why it's particularly infuriating when the close/delete police arrives after the facts and kills good content just because the question isn't particularly high quality (doubly so when the close/delete comes from reviewers who know shit about the tag, and can just judge the question from its "aesthetic" qualities, without seeing the redeeming qualities hidden in a garbage vest).

Another example is the "common meta judgment" about old, now off topic questions (because Stack Overflow narrowed its scope); the "official stance" is "lock if it's too disruptive to delete it, delete otherwise". My stance, which I expect to be shared by many other who are more "content creators" than "content janitors", is "lock it and leave it alone"; who cares if now it's off topic, it is good technical content, don't let the time that knowledgeable people spent go to waste just to appease the collective meta OCD.

Disclaimer: these were just examples of some of my points of disagreement with the "official stance" on these topics; the point of my post is not to discuss them in particular, they are just an example of how, even being - or maybe, exactly because I am - a high rep user, I may value different things than OCD-level cleanup of the site.


In short:

All this to say: don't be surprised to find that high rep users don't necessarily agree with your or with the orthodox idea about questions quality and appropriate actions; as I said, these things don't influence reputation, and I even suspect that high rep users, who are more content creators and answer-addicted than content janitors, may place more value in producing interesting content (or saving existing content) than in weighting too much the inherent quality of the questions.

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    as long as I keep posting sound technical content Or, if there are other people like you around, even if you keep posting unsound, inaccurate, unclear, and otherwise low quality content, people like you will continue seeing their reputation grow. That's...the whole problem.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 20:53
  • 11
    @Servy: I disagree; I'll dutifully downvote technically wrong content; what I don't stand is deletion of valid content because two years ago was on topic and today somehow it isn't; or trigger-happy dupe closers that first dupe-close and delete, then actually read the question; or delete-hound dogs that don't know how to spend their time and go looking for old, then perfectly valid questions with 3-4 upvoted/accepted answers and decide that they must be deleted. Go kill the actual garbage that keeps getting in instead of disturbing long dead stuff. Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 20:58
  • 5
    But again, this isn't about justifying my ideas about moderation; it's just an explanation of the fact that "high-rep user" isn't necessarily correlated with "shares the majority opinion about moderation". Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 21:01
  • 8
    And yet nothing about this question is mentioning anything about deletion of anything. It's talking about high rep users providing low quality contributions, and people being rewarded for posting low quality contributions. You've asserted that because of your high reputation, which you assert comes from your valuable technical contributions, gives you the right to reward people for posting low quality contributions, because you've earned the right to not have to care about quality and to upvote bad content because you want to. That's clearly harmful.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 21:02
  • 5
    That you also think that people should refrain from deleting bad content that's old, just because it's old, and that apparently all old content must, by definition, be good, is simply unrelated to what this question is about.
    – Servy
    Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 21:02
  • 10
    @Servy: I'm mostly talking about the first case posted in the original post - the high-rep user that upvoted what OP marked as a "garbage question"; what I'm saying is, don't assume that a high-rep user necessarily agrees with you that it is such - and in general, that just because he/she's high-rep, holds the same majority opinion about what low-quality content is. Rep comes from technical contributions, not moderation. Also, when I'm upvoting or voting to reopen a question against the majority opinion is not because I like low quality content - it's because I don't think it's low quality. Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 21:07
  • 10
    About old questions, it's the same. I'm not going around undeleting random garbage; I'll vote to undelete stuff that was on-topic and well received at time, but now it was deleted because the scope of Stack Overflow has narrowed with time. IMO that's not a valid reason to delete the history, and in particular high-quality content that just happens to be no longer on topic. But again, my views on moderation are not the point of discussion here. If you think it's less distracting, I'll just delete all but the first three paragraphs, which are the actual point I'm trying to convey. Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 21:12
  • 12
    @Servy: keep reading in my question what you want to read, if that is what floats your boat. I may reward good problems that happen to be badly formulated - usually editing the question to make it understandable (as you can see from my "Copy Editor" badge I'm quite keen of improving posts), and I'll vote to undelete posts that I don't think deserve deletion, which often happens for old posts that don't conform to the current most stringent standards, but still contain valid content. Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 21:28
  • 5
    You know what, I'll just remove the last paragraphs, this discussion is completely irrelevant to my point about the question; feel free to think that I like upvoting spammers and undeleting "give me teh codez" posts if that makes you happy, honestly I don't really care. Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 21:33
  • 18
    @Matteo - don't let somebody shout you down in meta. You are absolutely right of course, solid technical advice lasts forever. It is not like SO users are not constantly reminded about that when they see the typical Q+A as the top hit at Google, lazy unresearched question paired with a fantastic answer. Keep them coming. Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 21:52
  • 5
    @HansPassant: I re-inserted my points in a bit less inflammatory tone, borrowing your quote because it really does express the core of my beliefs on the issue; I hope I framed it with considerations you agree with. Thank you again for the support, I think that without it I'd just have left the answer in its "censored" form. Commented Sep 13, 2017 at 22:53
  • 7
    This. Absolutely this. There are many roles to play in this game we call Stack Overflow, and people have different ideas about how those roles should be played. That's a good thing, because it's the differences that drive evolution. Perfection is unattainable, so it's a good thing I'm ok with just the best programming Q&A site on the web.
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 14, 2017 at 2:17
  • 14
    Broadly speaking, you have my support, too. I would very much prefer to salvage value from questions than to delete them. The issue here is quality. If you're contributing quality, you're tops in our book. If you see a nugget of value in a question, and know you can compose a good answer, then please edit the question. The way you're doing things sounds fine to me. Editing first isn't just important to stave off close-voters, though. It's also important to stave off a flurry of noisy answers that your edit obsoletes. That's the same reason we try to close questions as early as possible.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 14, 2017 at 11:40
  • 8
    There was nothing ironic about it whatsoever. The only good cure I know for boring content is interesting content. Why people want to stop users from posting interesting content is mystifying to me. Why Servey keeps going on about upvoting bad content is as well, nobody but him is talking about that. And besides, how I use my votes, how anybody uses their votes, is none of his business. Maybe it helps to stop talking about "quality", nobody seems to be able to pin down what it means. SO has too much boring content. Yawn. Commented Sep 14, 2017 at 15:30
  • 11
    There is absolutely nothing interesting about a site full of overly specific debugging questions that will never help anyone else.
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 14, 2017 at 18:00
1

There seem to be several things you may be overlooking.

First, the fact that a user is an expert in one area doesn't mean they can't be a beginner in other areas. "Reputation" earned in one topic doesn't indicate expertise in another.

Secondly, just as the best composers know when to break the rules of music composition, high-reputation users may feel that they are more qualified than the average moderator to know what is the right thing to do in the interests of the user population as a whole or of an individual poster. You don't actually have to agree with the crowd (e.g. as to what constitutes an "opinion-based" question) in order to take part here. They may not even agree with what you consider to be the "guiding principles".

(I'm afraid my only guiding principle is to try and help the poster with their problem. I really don't care if that isn't everyone's guiding principle. You don't have to sign in blood that you agree with SO's guiding principles to take part here.)

Thirdly, everyone has off days. Everyone occasionally makes technical mistakes. Those with high reputation generally have sufficient self-confidence that they don't mind occasionally being wrong, and being put right. They probably don't even care about the effect on their reputation.

-3

I noticed something along these lines. A high-rep user created a decent question/answer--decent, no better. I pointed out some shortcomings. While one point was addressed and edited into the answer, the other point was criticized with blatantly incorrect response ("don't ever do that, because if you use the -f argument in the awk shebang, you remove the user's ability to pass flags to the script"). We were being perfectly civil, but he wouldn't elaborate or defend his claim. Instead deleted both of our comments. I didn't even know you could delete other people's comments. It seems like he's cultivating his image in a way that low rep users aren't allowed to do. It's a bit gross, like a politician that gets a newspaper to not run a story about him.

In the end, the answer was fine, but not quite as good as it could have been. 2/3 of the comments that said how the solution could be better were disappeared down the memory hole.

I assume there's no official policy on image cultivation when it's detrimental to answers? This seems kind of specific. People are always going to do this as far as they're allowed to, and it doesn't really hurt anyone, but it seems ugly to allow more efficient image cultivation for high-rep users in particular.

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    You can't delete other people's comments. You can, however, flag comments for a moderator to delete. Comments are not intended for extended discussion. If the comments provided insight on how the solution could have been better, then you should have made the solution better, which would make the comments obsolete and deleted. None of this has anything to do with "image cultivation", and I'm just not sure why you're going on about that.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 6:53
  • 2
    @CodyGray Gotcha. Then I think the high-rep user must have deleted his comments, flagged my comments, and the moderator must have mistakenly thought the criticism had been addressed. As for making the solution better, I respect the sanctity of authorship enough not to change people's code against their wishes. Finally, I don't know why you believe it isn't image cultivation if someone tricks moderators into deleting criticism of their post.
    – piojo
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 8:15
  • 2
    Because comments don't make or break anyone's image, any more than the post-it notes left on your desk. If the comments led to an improvement in the answer, then they are obsolete and should be deleted. If they're just pointless bickering that never leads to a conclusion or agreement, then they should probably be deleted.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 8:18
  • 1
    @CodyGray The scenarios you mentioned don't cover the actual situation, which was constructive criticism which the author said he didn't want to discuss. If that's how I publicly responded to feedback, I would certainly want to make the conversation disappear, but perhaps the high-rep user was simply doing as you said, unaware he was censoring criticism he didn't like.
    – piojo
    Commented Sep 15, 2017 at 8:30
  • @piojo if someone doesn't feel that your criticism is valid, they don't have to do anything. If they feel it is irrelevant, it is completely appropriate for them to flag said comments for removal. If the moderator agrees that the comment is irrelevant or not needed, they will delete it. You should never expect comments to exist for any period of time. If you have a better/more correct/whatever answer, post it yourself and move on.
    – user4639281
    Commented Sep 16, 2017 at 0:49
  • @TinyGiant All that is reasonable. The scenario was just fishy. He commented to say "I'm deleting my comments to clean up the thread", and the next day my suggestions were gone (the point he addressed as well as the points he said he didn't want to discuss). From the outside, it sure looked as though a high-rep user was censoring feedback.
    – piojo
    Commented Sep 16, 2017 at 4:12
  • @TinyGiant However, the premise that comments cannot be informative and useful in and of themselves is misguided. Comments serve the purpose of letting viewers see what popular sentiment is about a solution, and what its shortcomings are. A commenter replied to an answer of mine: "by the way, if you set the capacity smaller it will throw an exception". I would hate to see that note of caution ever disappear from the space below my answer!
    – piojo
    Commented Sep 16, 2017 at 4:15
  • 1
    @piojo: That helpful comment you mention as an example of how good comments can be? That is a perfect example of precisely the sort of comment that should be deleted as soon as possible! But, of course, not without first incorporating the useful tip into the actual answer. Most lastingly helpful comments are really just proto-edits that haven't been framed quite right, or need to be accepted by the original author, or the like. Once they're properly handled by being converted into an edit, they are no longer necessary and should be deleted. Commented Sep 16, 2017 at 4:23
  • 1
    @NathanTuggy I'm open to accepting that philosophy of comments, but is it empirically valid or does it work only in theory? Based on past internet search results that have brought me to old stackoverflow answers, there is usually information in comments. I'm not sure whether it could all be artfully incorporated into the answers, but that I suspect writing the canonically complete answer is at odds with the equally valid goal of reasonable brevity. I'll keep this philosophy in mind as I read future answers and comments, though.
    – piojo
    Commented Sep 16, 2017 at 5:57
  • @piojo: One could make an argument that there are useful comments that are extremely difficult to helpfully incorporate into an answer, yes. (Although if necessity demands, writing up two answers with different approaches, one very concise, and one very thorough, would be a fairly reasonable compromise.) But this particular example seems to be exceptionally easy. Commented Sep 16, 2017 at 6:19
  • @NathanTuggy Beyond my own questions/comments, I'd be interested in picking ten commented answers at random and seeing whether all the comments could be incorporated into the answer without loss of readability. If not, the stackoverflow philosophy about comments is overly optimistic/naive.
    – piojo
    Commented Sep 16, 2017 at 6:44

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