248

Please read the question carefully, I'm NOT requesting removing the post

Joel Spolsky posted a very touching and inspiring post: Time to take a stand.

On one hand, I really appreciate his stance and his courage, and I truly agree with all that he said (I don't want to add more to avoid converting this post to political one). But on the other hand, I'm not sure if Meta is the best place to host this post.

I couldn't press the "close" button because I want to keep the thread alive, and I want it to reach most of us, but I know that the right action to take is to close the discussion.

Going through the comments of many users, I can see that some think it should be closed, while others think that sometimes bending the rules is essential to do the right things.

My thoughts:

  • Keeping the post might legitimize other political posts, and some users might think that it's OK to have such posts here.

  • Closing it makes me feel bad.

  • Maybe the best action to do is to post it as a blog post and moving it from Meta.

I'm really confused, I would be happy to know what's the right action to take.

EDIT

Since Joel's post targets Stack Overflow, and since we want it to reach to as many people as possible, couldn't it be attached to the main site? As a link to a blog post or a banner or whatever? Doing so will end the "to close or not to close" dilemma and will reach more people.

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  • 180
    "Time to take a stand against the 'Time to take a stand' question?"
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 13:48
  • 22
    Well, that is also confusing. You aren't against it, you just think we should…close and/or move it? Why? Because someone might think it's OK to post whatever they want? This is a dumb argument when it's made about other off-topic posts, and it's really absurd when it's made about Meta.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 13:51
  • 29
    This is a fight you cannot win, the post is there to stay. I just hope that it'll stop at that one post, and not escalate to a regular occurrence for the next few years.
    – user247702
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 13:52
  • 7
    @Stijn I'm NOT fighting to remove the post, please read my question.
    – Maroun
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 13:52
  • 5
    I hope it didn't escape notice that the same thing could be said about far more than this one question, @Stijn. If this type of thing escalates to a regular occurrence over the next few years, we'll have a lot more problems than Meta posts to complain about.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 13:53
  • 4
    @Stijn I shared the post on every social media account I have. I want this post to be alive, I'm just wondering if Meta is the correct place, that's all.
    – Maroun
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 13:55
  • 5
    Strictly speaking, no @MarounMaroun, this isnt technically the right place. But if someone with an important message has a platform they can slightly abuse to get that message across, why are we talking about whether they should or not? Some things transcend rules because of the effect they have on humanity, in my humble opinion
    – Clive
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 15:17
  • 5
    @CodyGray "Time to take a stand articles considered harmful?"
    – user764357
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 0:22
  • 9
    It has been reopened at least 10 times.
    – Knu
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 5:06
  • 28
    @JasonC: Suggested new title: "Time to take a seat".
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 9:19
  • 6
    On the other side of the pond: Jeff Atwood wrote a blog post about the same topic blog.codinghorror.com/im-loyal-to-nothing-except-the-dream
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 12:25
  • 49
    If Stack Overflow is to become yet another political site, it will cease to be of any worth. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:39
  • 59
    No, it shouldn't be closed or moved, it should be deleted and the user warned. It's not only off-topic, it's also baity.
    – david
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 0:35
  • 5
    @Trilarion "How should he know?" Heh, well apparently, according to Kasra, they "knew" that MSO was a prime place to post to quickly target "politically apathetic, employed, mostly-white males", hence posting it here. So who knows what they "know"...
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 17:19
  • 5
    @baudsp: As much as you disagree with that line, don't edit it out. That goes against the intent of the author of this question.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 3, 2017 at 14:38

32 Answers 32

336

If any other user had posted that content as a question on Meta.SO, it would have been closed, maybe even deleted, and probably heavily downvoted. If we leave it as it is, we send the message to users that whether a post belongs on the site depends more on the individual who posted it than on the content.

20
  • 83
    Is it really that surprising that when you're the CEO of the company, you are granted a bit of leeway in what you're allowed to post?
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 15:33
  • 223
    How often do we get reminded, whether voting, reviewing queues, or moderating, to "vote for the content, not the person"? How much automation and human effort goes into preventing targeted voting or favouritism? On any other site, I'd agree with you, but on Stack Overflow, I'm really surprised that Mr Spolsky thinks this post is more important than the fundamental ethos of his site.
    – Dan Hulme
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 15:53
  • 40
    If you are surprised by that, then you are fundamentally underestimating the magnitude of this issue and how much it affects the Stack Overflow developers. Don't miss reading Kasra's story.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 15:54
  • 64
    I'm not talking about the importance of the issue: I'm talking about the importance of an off-topic, hand-wringing moan. A question of the form "How can SE continue when its developers are under this kind of threat?" would be a valid post (regardless of the identity of the poster) - though still better suited for MSE than here.
    – Dan Hulme
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:01
  • 5
    I don't know why everyone keeps saying this would be better for Meta Stack Exchange. The question in question is clearly targeted to Stack Overflow itself.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:03
  • 58
    @Cody The question isn't clearly targeted anywhere. The only reason it was posted on MSO and not another meta is that one guarantees the most view counts.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 17:40
  • 13
    @Cody I didn't say he didn't mention SO. I said he didn't explicitly target it. That doesn't even make any sense, why would anybody want to solely target SO for a stance like that? Stop constantly twisting words around to fit your agenda and push the issue here. We get that you're extremely upset about Trumps immigration policies. We all are. But stick to what people are actually saying and stop twisting this. The meat of Joel's post wasn't his stackoverflow numbers or mention, it was the civil rights immoralities and getting the message out. Don't pretend it was some weird SO targeted thing.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 17:50
  • 9
    @Cody I'm making the argument that it should be elsewhere. Like a blog. Which I believe, and even state in my answer, and have stated multiple times. As I said, I don't think it belongs on MSO or MSE. And I think it belongs elsewhere. These things do not contradict each other. Are you twisting words again? Is it intentional, have you honestly been misinterpreting, or have I been unclear? I am fully open to the latter possibility.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 18:57
  • 105
    @CodyGray Yes, Joel can do whatever he wants. But he must be mindful of the message his post sends: "this is a community-moderated site, but you are plebes that must follow rules and I am better than you because different rules apply to me."
    – user439793
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 19:12
  • 61
    @CodyGray Is it really that surprising... - surprising? No. Disappointing? Enormously.
    – Ant P
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 12:50
  • 47
    President Spolsky can do whatever he wants, like writing an executive order, telling everyone how the site now works, which will then get executed by the moderators. We will now use meta to discuss politics rather than SO. Anyone who disagrees will get censored. After all, he got elected in some kind of democratic processes. No wait... I'm thinking about some other president...
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:14
  • 23
    @CodyGray "Is it really that surprising that when you're the CEO of the company, you are granted a bit of leeway in what you're allowed to post?", well the same can be said about the president of the United States and his work. But I am guessing you think it is wrong for only one of the two arguments. :)
    – Jordan.J.D
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:03
  • 38
    @CodyGray "...you are fundamentally underestimating the magnitude of this issue and how much it affects the Stack Overflow developers..." It sounds to me as though you're basing you opinion of whether this post belongs here on your personal feelings about the issue and not on what policies SO has in place to protect the community here. If this were a simple breach of protocol and Joel had remained respectful, I might agree with you. But Joel is introducing a toxic, yet popular, attitude to SO. This damages us all. Joel's post is the poster-child of why we don't normally allow this content.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 22:34
  • 17
    There's a lot of "Joel meant this", "Joel should be able to do that". Maybe Joel himself can comment here and answer some of the questions his post has raised rather than all of us second guessing him or explaining on his behalf?
    – onnoweb
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 0:25
  • 28
    It's difficult to read Joel's post as anything other than an attack on conservative voters and their values.
    – WOPR
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 4:00
228

Yes, this question should be closed. There is a specific close reason: "This question does not appear to be about Stack Overflow or the software that powers the Stack Exchange network, within the scope defined in the help center."


First, this is an example of Joel standing on a soapbox. Of the whole post, only the second paragraph that cites the number of posts written by people in Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, Somalia, Sudan and Yemen (the 7 countries affected by the executive order) and the number of views on those posts are relevant to the Stack Overflow community. The first and last paragraphs are expressing a personal view and the last paragraph can be seen as off-putting (at best) to people who may actually agree with the actions taken by the United States.

To me, it appears that Joel is expressing his own personal beliefs, and he has a personal blog which would be a much more appropriate venue. If he doesn't want to write a blog post, Joel also has a public Twitter account. If I'm wrong and this is supposed to be the perspective of Stack Overflow the company, there's still a blog and a Twitter account (two Twitter accounts, if you include the Stack Exchange account).


Second, it's an example of a double-standard. The sites in the network are built upon rules and community moderation. The post has been closed several times by community members. Once, a moderator used their moderator powers to reopen the question. The other times, a moderator casted the 5th vote. Honestly, I'm surprised that a moderator did not apply a Content Dispute lock and open a discussion similar to this one - it should have been done a long time ago. I think that if any other individual posted a politically charged posted on any Meta site, it would be down voted, closed, and even deleted in rather short order. The same rules should be applied to posts by staff.


Third, we have had political-related posts on Meta before. For example, we discussed how SOPA and PIPA could possibly impact the network. However, there's a strict, literal difference. Laws like SOPA and PIPA would have had a direct impact in how the network functions. Therefore, it seems reasonable that people who use the network should be informed by the staff what the impact would be to their ability to use the network.

There are plenty of rules and laws that impact people. I don't see posts from staff about the actions that target sanctuary cities (hint: New York City, where HQ is, is one). Or posts from staff about the construction of pipelines. Or the executive order that puts the US-EU data transfers at risk?

Reading the posts on the original question, it seems like many people agree with the sentiment that Joel provides. I do too. But agreeing with the content doesn't mean that it belongs on Meta.


Fourth, this post presents no action or no call for discussion. It simply says that it is "time to take a stand" and that "we must speak out". It's a command or instruction, not a discussion. There's no prompting for a discussion on what, if anything Stack Overflow the company or Stack Overflow the community can do. I believe that there are things that the company and each of the communities can and should do, but that isn't part of this post. It seems like it was written in haste and rather emotionally, rather than being well thought out.

4
  • 69
    Regarding the topicality of posts: this is an example of "do as I say, not as I do." That works with small children, not IT professionals who rely on Stack Exchange for useful discourse of technical questions and answers.
    – user439793
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 19:10
  • 53
    Btw, about the reopening, Joel himself unilaterally reopened it at least once, which not only seems highly inappropriate, but shows that he actively decided that the community was good enough to give his opinion to yet not valuable enough to engage in a conversation with. He didn't disappear, he was there, actively countering a community decision to close his question while ignoring the response and contributing nothing. To me, this was surprising, as one of the strongest points of the SE network was its apparent emphasis on its community, which I now question the sincerity of.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 3:09
  • 5
    It also shows scant regard for the moderation team, since he probably doesn't care that much if any of them decides to "take a stand" and stand down.
    – prusswan
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 4:07
  • 3
    Sorry for the off-topic comment, but "do as I say, not as I do" doesn't even work with small children, @Snowman (just to emphasize your point).
    – user1205935
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 12:03
166

I personally am very conflicted about this one. I wholeheartedly support the message. But at the same time there are several issues:

The message itself is lacking. So there is outrage and you feel we need to take a stand ... great. But what is that stand? Where do we go from here? Is there anything beyond outrage and being upset? In all honesty, I was expecting a follow-up "answer" from Joel stating "this is what we'll effectively do". There is nothing of the sort.

Secondly, why post it on Meta SO? Maybe it's just my view, but I don't find Meta a very publicly facing venue. Sure, you can drag in tons of views by leveraging your Twitter followers, and a fair amount will come from SO now it has been featured, but you're leaving out the wider Stack Exchange (why not post this on MSE?) and I really think it should go on the blog if anywhere.

And then there are politics. I have said a thing or two about SO and politics in the past, and while the message fits entirely in my comfortable bubble, I'm not entirely sure Meta SO as a venue makes me all that comfortable about it.

I'm not so worried about MSO as a whole. We recognize the author and will have no issue keeping post of others under control. But overall I think this message should go to the blog.

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  • 30
    If you think that the exclusion and demonization of entire groups of people is "politics", then you might be missing the point. Joel probably hasn't decided what he/we are going to do yet. A lot of people are still too upset to think clearly, and coming up with an effective response isn't trivial. I'm sure he is also open for suggestions. That's why he posted it on Meta. Suggestions and discussions are one of the many things we do here, as abusive of the Q&A model as it might be.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 13:56
  • 21
    Discussions and suggestions can also be had under a blog post. There is no need to leverage MSO for that. Let this site be what it is. I guess my main conflict is that in the post I link I put a line at a "call for action", which I feel we're creeping towards. That doesn't mean action isn't required. And maybe I have to merely revise my point of view. Inaction is not going to achieve anything. But where it concerns MSO, let's just say "conflicted" describes it best.
    – Bart
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 14:01
  • 8
    But what is that stand? That's the point of posting it as a question. The answers to the question are a great discussion on exactly what that stand looks like, or could look like. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 17:27
  • 17
    @AlexanderO'Mara the blog uses Disqus, which seems to be even more appropriated for such activities. The Q&A design doesn't work well with the kind of feedback you are expecting or it's being experienced, Disqus doesn't have these problems, it was built for that purpose. Also, hey, they have flags and voting too!
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 17:55
  • 11
    @Alexander Quote the part where he asks for feedback. All he does is state his opinion then tell us we must... speak out or something. "Cool, sure Joel, we must do those things, got it, need anything else? No? Just had to get it off your chest? Great, have a nice weekend."
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 18:33
  • 31
    "We recognize the author and will have no issue keeping post of others under control." Why should one person be allowed to do something everyone else has been forbidden from doing because it has been deemed harmful to the network? Because he's a C-level exec? How is marginalizing so many people healthy for the community? How does it even accomplish the stated goal of the post itself? It's a rant, whether you agree with it or not. Why can't we call a spade a spade? Just because it's a globally popular opinion?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 18:55
  • 20
    If it's because it's a globally popular opinion (or because it's your own personal opinion), then it is extremely harmful to the community. It does create a "bastion of political activism," particularly for one set of opinions. It makes dissenting opinions unwelcome, which discourages people from even expressing them. Respectfulness in the name of exchanging ideas has to be for everyone or it doesn't work.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 19:03
  • 19
    @KasraRahjerdi Nobody needs wake up calls any more. We've had those. Plenty. More than plenty. And if a person isn't woken up at this point, Joel's random post on MSO isn't going to wake them up. It's true that wake up calls are good. It's true that the opinion is popular. Neither of these make it make more sense for Joel to post US policy personal political statements here. We don't need that here. Your plight is heartbreaking, but Joel's MSO post isn't changing it. We're awake already. Joel's post wasn't even a great wakeup call. It wasn't really a great anything aside from a distraction.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:22
  • 24
    @KasraRahjerdi And no it's not about users not feeling like it affects their profession. Just because a user doesn't want to see politics and rights issues on MSO doesn't mean they don't care. Please stop making those kinds of assumptions, those are at the core of the US's current toxic and divisive political climate, and they don't help. No matter how upset you are, and no matter how completely reasonable and legitimate your anger is, you don't get to assume that not wanting to talk about this in every venue at every moment, or wanting the site to stay professional, equals not caring.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:25
  • 32
    @KasraRahjerdi One more thing: "safe, employed mostly-white men who don't feel that this is all real, and want to ignore politics" -- Do you legitimately not see any problems with this phrase you so casually let fly? Is this SE's official view on the qualities of SO's primary audience? Did this information come from one of the Developer Surveys?
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 22:36
  • 18
    @Kasra What evidence do you have to suggest that that is "the default"? Why do you believe that e.g." safe" and "apathetic" are tied to employed mostly white males? And why do you believe that this group you've defined needs you to shake them awake? To be frank, you aren't some sort of almighty savior here, and you're not some kind of lone voice in a crowd of apathetic employed mostly-white male souls. And also, I am totally 1000% sympathetic to your cause, and sad and scared for you, but you are the center of your world, as you should be. You are not the center of mine. There are lines.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 0:42
  • 22
    @Kasra Do you realize that not only have I read that letter multiple times, I have read it to other people out loud multiple times at local activist gatherings. You know nothing about me, but you judge because I don't want to discuss it here. It's that kind of presumption that bothers me. And not even on a personal level, but because it's literally the problem with the country. Not only that but people doing what you're doing hurt our cause, not help it. We absolutely can continue this convo and I see what you have said but I do need to get back to work right now.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 1:12
  • 22
    @KasraRahjerdi you are massively overstepping your bounds as a service provider.
    – Ant P
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 12:27
  • 12
    @KasraRahjerdi I, like JasonC, am very sympathetic to your and your grandmother's plight. But having read both your answer to Joel's question and the blog post to which it links, I'm very sorry to say that I think that in your discussion here with JasonC you are completely failing to follow your own advice of "Listen to people. Listen to people. Listen to people...." -- which, by the way, is utterly fantastic advice and perhaps the only way out of this mess. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 0:32
  • 11
    And, furthermore, if we take Joel at his word and consider this community to be obligated to "speak out" about politics, and, moreover, to require a certain public stance on political issues (no matter how "obviously" correct or moral that stance is), then I don't want to be part of that community, even if I fully agree with the obligatory viewpoint, no matter how important the issue is. For instance, I want Curtis Yarvin to feel welcome offering people programming assistance here, no matter how racist his views are. Period. Of course I don't want him sharing those views here. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 0:40
151

I completely stand by Joel and SE having a stance. And in this particular case I personally agree with that stance. But these global, non-US-specific, professional Q&A sites are not the place for it, especially given the socially charged and divisive nature of the topic.

This question should not be on MSO, or any of the metas, for the following reasons. First, site-policy specific reasons, which I can see as being open for debate and exceptions:

  • This isn't about programming.
  • This isn't about the software that powers the network.
  • This type of post has always been frowned on here, and an exception by the CEO does not seem to set a good example.
  • While one could argue that this affects users and developers of the site, that type of connection isn't the intended spirit of the above three bullet points. I mean those to be literal and concrete.
  • The post is not a question.
  • The post is also not an announcement of company policy, which meta is used for from time to time. The subject is "I", meaning Joel personally.

Second, the general and as unbiased-as-I-can-be reasons:

  • The post is about US-specific immigration policy. While it does have global effects, since it's immigration, it's still a US policy issue. There are other countries with far stricter and more controversial immigration policies which would generally be regarded as inappropriate discussion topics here.
  • The post is a topic for which the social and political climate in the United States currently induces fear and shame into those holding opposing views, and into those holding no strong views, and into those who may hold strong views but do not express them. More importantly there is a strong feeling in the US right now that these things should induce fear and shame. While Joel himself may be open to discussion, no matter how much we like it the fact is this is not open to discussion.
  • Because of its nature, any opposing views are almost necessarily going to be offensive. This is not conducive to discussion or proper moderation.
  • Many people use SE in a professional context, where their expressed views, when tied to their profile, can cause problems for them in the workplace. Not only does this discourage discussion from these users, but it is inappropriate to force that association.
  • This is essentially a passionate political rant, it just so happens that the view of the rant is so generally socially acceptable that it is not seen as such. Additionally, because of the complex social climate described above, labeling it a "rant" is implicitly seen as morally unacceptable.
  • Joel has a blog and so does SE. Joel and SE as a company are not only entitled to their views, but have a social responsibility to express them, at least I believe this wholeheartedly. However, the appropriate venue is said blogs, not meta sites, and certainly not MSO (which was only chosen to reach a large target audience quickly).

And a more biased set of personal reasons:

  • The argument that "this is an exception, now is the time and this is the place" is not completely true. That is only the case for US citizens and other folks with a direct interest in US immigration policies. SE is a global community. Not everybody cares or needs to care.
  • I find the post to be almost embarrassingly US-centric.
  • The post had no clear intent: Is it merely to confirm that most people agree with Joel? Is it to solicit ideas for taking a stand? Is it simply to raise "awareness"? Who's going to read that in January 2017 after a year of high profile campaigning and social media debates and suddenly have their mind changed or realize something new and, even if somebody did, is SE really the venue the world has been missing all this time? There are many better and equally if not more effective places to state opinions on US immigration laws.
  • We are already bombarded with this 24/7, just Google for "news" or log on to Facebook. We've been bombarded with this 24/7 for over a year now. The SE sites have always gone above and beyond by staying professional and providing a high quality source of information and discussion on specific professional topics. We do not, in reality, need this to be here.
  • The post, at best, has brought the US's current divisiveness into the SE community. Look at all the arguments, negativity, accusations of "unsympatheticness", and debate we have here now, and to what end? Maybe one person who said "oh, I agree now, good point" then went back to fighting with Android documentation? Was it worth it? Was that the intent?
  • What about the SE workplace? Has this post brought this divisiveness there? While supporters of the view may say no, I can say for certain that if I disagreed with Joel and also worked there, I absolutely wouldn't feel comfortable doing anything but keeping my views a secret after this. It seems irresponsible for the CEO to post a personal view like this rather than discuss it internally then preface it with a "We at SE believe...".
  • Joel hasn't posted a single follow-up response, or even acknowledged any concerns. It was a fire-and-forget style post that, at least to me, sends a message that the community is good enough to express an opinion to, but not valuable enough to continue a discussion with.
  • This isn't Joel's personal soapbox.
  • We aren't Reddit.

And, finally, reasons -- with varying bias -- centered around the premise that Joel's post was hastily constructed and rushed out (here and in the last paragraph of this) (these points are based on a hypothesis that had the post been made elsewhere [a blog, etc.] then the community reaction would have been significantly different, toned down, and/or on a smaller scale):

  • This situation may have felt urgent because of strong emotional response and passionate feelings about the subject, but it wasn't. There isn't really any reason why Joel et al couldn't have waited a day or two and put some more thought into careful construction. Realistically, having that posted on MSO/blog/anywhere the day after the order vs. a few days later would not have impacted anybody's views or knowledge of the matter, and would not have made a difference.
  • I am a firm believer in "with great power comes great responsibility". Joel is the CEO, and as such I believe has a special obligation to think harder before acting compared to other staff and community members. I strongly believe that as a person's position in a community approaches the top, there are sacrifices in unfettered expression that a person must make.
  • Additionally, if Joel was not expecting the divisive community response that followed, I believe this is a problem. I don't feel Joel is obligated to be familiar with the community, to me that is OK. However, as the CEO he should either a) be familiar enough with the community to expect this, or b) be keen enough to know that he isn't familiar enough with the community and not make posts like this (or leave it to somebody else).
  • Joel himself states "If you don't have time to say something politely, just leave it for someone who does." Whether or not Joel's post adheres to this policy is a current discussion topic, but if you are on the side of the fence that believes this policy applies here, then I believe this is an important point.

I'm sure I can think of more reasons as the day goes on. I initially typed this on my phone so it was a bit tough.

I realize not everybody may agree with all of these points (I'd be surprised if anybody did), and that many of them are my personal bias, some perhaps far from reality, but I think there is at least a few points for everybody in here.

You can stop reading here as far as the OP itself goes, the rest is just reflection.


An added word on the criticism of Joel's lack of feedback solicitation:

This is an expansion of one of the bullet points above.

Some explanation, at least how I see it in the US (and NYC especially, where civil rights is a massive hot button issue, which is where I live and where SE is headquartered): For many reasons, suffice it to say the current social and political environment in the US is highly volatile and toxic. There is a major divide right now, where anti-immigration proponents, as well as people who are not vocal, regardless of their stance, are labelled as the bad guy. A consequence of this is the quiet / opposing folks end up with feelings of fear and shame, and even worse, a lot of the US feels that they should be fearful and shamed. It's more implied social censorship in a culture that has already been thriving on explicit social oppression as an acceptable strategy for nearly two decades ("shut up, you can't say that" as opposed to "I understand, but here's why I don't want you to say that").

So for many US citizens, posts like Joel's do implicitly discourage opposing viewpoints and do not invite feedback. I think that folks who passionately agree with the view completely understandably and reasonably may not be aware of this, but from the other side it's a bit different.

But, it's not Joel's fault, and it's not directly due to his wording (in good faith I assume Joel was passionate rather than calculating). It's because of the current environment, this fear / shame / divisiveness is immediately felt by folks who have been living in the climate. This may not be obvious outside of the US and might be a source of some of the disagreement about Joel's desire for feedback here. There's an unspoken rule here right now that you should not oppose the views that Joel has put forth. Reasonable or not, it exists.


An added word about whether this is "politics":

This also has come up a lot. I really think this depends on your point of view. To me, this is US immigration policy, plain and simple. It was a big platform point and I consider it pure politics, with the necessary and unavoidable civil rights impact.

On the other hand, for many folks this issue touches on moral cores, and is an issue of basic rights, not political. But we need to acknowledge both viewpoints here.

This different perspective is in fact one of the fundamental reasons for a lot of the divisiveness, passion, and anger surrounding this topic. The divide here isn't just pro/anti immigration, it's "this is a core human issue" vs "this is politics", which touches on individuals' moral foundations and creates major gaps in understanding. Let's acknowledge that this exists.

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  • 58
    +1 Joel's post reeks of American Exceptionalism, i.e. that this is the only subject he will talk about simply because he is american and lives there, and to him americans news must be more important than anywhere else. There are countless similar laws in the world which may affect the community in much the same way as those he discusses. Yet he would never in a million year talk about them. And no, SE being an american company has nothing to do with it, since he is clearly arguing about the impact on the community, which is not american-centric.
    – Fatalize
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 9:54
  • 15
    Brilliant post. I thoroughly enjoyed reading all of it..
    – user2654834
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 12:58
  • 4
    "Joel's post reeks of American Exceptionalism, i.e. that this is the only subject he will talk about simply because he is american and lives there, and to him americans news must be more important than anywhere else." -- that's the most ignorant definition of American Exceptionalism I've ever heard. American Exceptionalism means we're a nation founded on principles, not tribalism or monarchic rule. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:41
  • 5
    @RobCrawford that is one meaning. Of several.
    – Ant P
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:45
  • 16
    @RobCrawford Not exactly. According to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_exceptionalism, American exceptionalism has (at least) three different meanings, one of them being "the sense that the United States' history and mission give it a superiority over other nations" - I guess that's the one Fatalize is referring to. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:59
  • 3
    "an issue of basic rights, not political" I'm really not sure why these categories would be mutually exclusive. In fact, human rights debates are typically political, since they are debates about government policy.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 23:21
  • I've updated the laundry list of reasons to include some new points centered on the premise that the post was rushed. I realize not everybody may agree with all of these points (the whole post, not just the new ones), and that many of them are my personal bias, some perhaps far from reality, but I think there is at least a few points for everybody in here.
    – Jason C
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 16:11
  • 2
    "A consequence of this is the quiet / opposing folks end up with feelings of fear and shame, and even worse, a lot of the US feels that they should be fearful and shamed." This is not actually a new phenomenon. It happens over and over in American history—during the "Civil Rights" era, protests over the Vietnam War, military excursions in the Middle East, etc., all just in recent memory. And the truth is, I don't have a problem with the shame. If you stand by and let injustices happen, you should be ashamed. If you support immoral laws, you should be ashamed. Some things just aren't OK.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 16:18
  • 4
    Not every opinion or perspective is equally valid. If you, e.g., propose a racist or sexist argument, that should be silenced on principle. Outrage is not an altogether bad thing. Now, of course, every individual needs to be respected as a person, but that's a very different thing than each idea being due inherent respect. People are due respect because they are people. Ideas that are offensive, exclusionary, dangerous, or just downright wrong are not entitled to the same respect. The only downside of this is it complicates compromise. But maybe some things shouldn't be compromised on.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 16:25
  • 2
    To be clear, it is an important element of free speech that you have the inalienable right to say such things. This is what prevents my logic from being abused by a despotic governmental apparatus that abusively redefines what is "dangerous". But the fact that the state cannot restrict your ability to say these types of things does not mean that the public sphere should tolerate or respect these ideas. That's where democratic discourse comes in, and it is right and correct that certain ideas are "beyond the pale" because of their harmful effects or having already decided they're not OK.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 16:28
  • 4
    @CodyGray Wow, I can't believe we agree on not just one thing, but like five things. The world is ending. But one thing I do disagree with (assuming I am interpreting correctly) is "If you, e.g., propose a racist or sexist argument, that should be silenced on principle". I don't think it should. If you silence the proposal, it's easy, but you're still left with a person who believes it's correct but is just temporarily socially oppressed -- you've solved a symptom not a problem. On the other hand if you engage them, it's hard, but you at least have a possibility of changing a mind or two.
    – Jason C
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 17:03
  • 2
    @CodyGray But yes I totally understand your distinction between respecting ideas vs. respecting people. It's just that "silencing an idea" almost always necessarily implies or leads to "silencing people", since it's ultimately people who have and express said ideas (and also, socially, a person who supports an unfavorable idea will, like it or not, end up being cast as an unfavorable person by many people [not all, but many -- not everybody is good at compartmentalizing things like that]). Ideal, maybe not. Philosophically correct, maybe not. But it is what happens.
    – Jason C
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 17:18
93

That the post is off topic for Meta SO is an issue (and an important one), but it's actually a secondary issue.

The bigger problem is that it is unkind to those who dissent from it.

Stack Exchange network policy on political discourse

As the campaign from the last US Presidential election carried on and even a little before, Stack Exchange moderators and staff had to address the issue of how to discuss political issues on SO. You can see some of the discussions here:

After much discussion, Stack Exchange (both staff and community) came to a reasonable conclusion: in order to foster a healthy community without shutting down discussion of important issues, such discussions must remain respectful, in adherence to the Be Nice policy.

Joel's post and the Be Nice policy

Joel's post does not do this. It calls the order "immoral," "fundamentally un-American," "morally repugnant," and "frankly stupid." And by association, it says the same thing about anyone who supports the order. This is not respectful. It does not foster a healthy community where users can safely discuss issues they feel strongly about. Instead, it brings the existing extremely toxic political environment to Stack Exchange.

Joel is completely entitled to his opinion, and he is even entitled to express his opinion with the form and attitude he has chosen. However, he should not be entitled to do so within the bounds of Stack Exchange, in violation of site policy. Not just because, "Those are the rules," but because those are good rules that create the community Stack Exchange wants to be. Violating them isn't just a matter of protocol; it's a matter of undermining the very philosophy the post itself advocates for, the one Stack Exchange users and staff have built and embraced. If Joel wants to express his opinion in this manner, he can do so on his own personal blog or Facebook or Twitter. It would still carry much the same weight to readers because of who he is, but it would do much less harm to the Stack Exchange community. If instead he wants to use the Stack Exchange network, he should comply with site policy and uphold the values he is purporting to defend.

Having this discussion in the right place

I said that being off-topic was secondary, but it is important to the issue of building the Stack Exchange community as well. When posting an opinion in an inappropriate venue, it is also inappropriate for those who disagree to debate the opinion. As such, posting it in SO's meta provides an additional discouragement to discuss the policy or learn about opposing viewpoints. This kind of "baiting" is called out explicitly in at least one of the meta discussions I link above, and it concludes that the behavior is harmful to the Stack Exchange community. And I agree with that perspective: it is disrespectful to post your own opinion when it's inappropriate for others to post theirs. Doing so does not foster learning or understanding or the sharing of ideas; instead, it encourages frustration and derailment of the original topic. This all applies doubly for an emotionally charged topic, and quadruply when the expression of the off-topic opinion doesn't follow the Be Nice policy to begin with. This needs to be posted in a venue where dissenters feel comfortable responding with a different opinion, one where hopefully, they will be treated with respect and dignity.

But isn't this issue super important? Why shouldn't we use such strong language for this?

The political left considers this policy abhorrent, a major violation of basic human rights that is beyond the pale.

But I think I can show that this post's choice of language is still wrong by turning the tables, so to speak. Consider the issue of abortion. The political right considers that to be a massive violation of humans rights. Would it be appropriate on Stack Exchange for a pro-life person to go around using this kind of language to describe the position and actions of the left with regard to it? No, it wouldn't because it alienates everyone and discourages discussion and exchanging ideas. There are venues that would allow the expression of the view in those terms, but Stack Exchange has decided not to.

Joel's abuse of position

Let's be honest. This post would've been downvoted to oblivion, closed, and deleted as a rant in about 10 to 15 minutes if it had come from anyone other than Joel. And that would have happened because of the position Stack Exchange has taken against these kind of harmful posts, not because people agree or disagree with the position.

Joel should be no exception. As CEO and a founder of this company, when he violates site policy, he does far more damage than an average user. This encourages other users to do the same, and it actively makes anyone with a differing political opinion feel unwelcome, particularly if they want to discuss their opinions on chat or somewhere else appropriate.

What Joel and SO can do

Complying with site policy would be incredibly simple. Joel has a couple options:

  1. Move it directly to his blog, Facebook, Twitter, etc. if he wants to post it unchanged.
  2. Work with the SO staff to make it less derogatory and post an official SO blog post.
  3. Make it less derogatory and still move it to his blog, Facebook, Twitter, etc.

I consider all of these acceptable alternatives, although I much prefer the ones where he tones down his message a little.

If Joel refuses, I ask the rest of the SO staff to take a stand for the Stack Exchange community's policy, which is derived directly from the philosophy the post purports to defend. Discuss it with him and try to bring him around. If he still refuses, they should unfeature the post and then delete it. E-mail Joel the content so he has it available to post elsewhere if he feels strongly about doing so.

35
  • 4
    [2/2] So for many US citizens, posts like Joel's do implicitly discourage opposing viewpoints and do not invite feedback. But it's not Joel's fault, and it's not directly due to his wording. It's because of the current environment, this fear / shame / divisiveness is immediately felt by folks who have been living in the climate. This may not be obvious outside of the US and might be a source of some of the disagreement about Joel's desire for feedback here. There's an unspoken rule here right now that you should not oppose the views that Joel has put forth. Reasonable or not, it exists.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 20:48
  • 25
    @JasonC I agree with you about the existing political climate, but I disagree about Joel's responsibility in all this. Joel doesn't just implicitly assume that his readers won't agree with the order. He actively chooses inflammatory words to describe the order and by extension anyone who supports it. His post also explicitly demands some kind of dissent and action from everyone, not even considering those who don't oppose it. So I think Joel is fostering that toxic climate, explicitly. And not just fostering it where it is: he is almost single-handedly making it acceptable on SE.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 20:58
  • 2
    This is not respectful: Saying to another person that he's not belong here and should take his stuff and left his country because of his origin is a lot less respectful. If is not about the old politics anymore, it is about actual life of people in our community.
    – Shmuel H.
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:05
  • 7
    @ShmuelH. So are other issues. Are you prepared to let them be discussed in the tone Joel uses?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:07
  • 6
    @ShmuelH. We can't compare the "respectfulness" of Joel's post with the "respectfulness" of Trump's proposed immigration policies. These are two entirely different topics, and it is not appropriate to draw a false equivalence between the two. The respectfulness of one is independent of the respectfulness of the other, let's make sure we keep the discussion focused.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:09
  • 10
    @ShmuelH. That is pretty much the definition of "double standard."
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:11
  • 22
    @ShmuelH. I've avoiding getting into politics until this point, but what "basics of human rights" involves going to any country you wish? Every country excludes people from entering. I don't like it when you accuse people of disrespecting "basics of human rights" when their goal is literally to stop terrorists from entering the country that they're sworn to protect, however misguided or not their policies are. We have a lot of people who argue that it's okay to chop up babies in the womb or suck out their brains in the middle of birth here, but I don't see SO posting about that.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:19
  • 7
    @ShmuelH. No, I don't. If I'm expected to be respectful about something as provocative as abortion, then no, no view should be disrespected.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:34
  • 5
    @ShmuelH. All the links in my post. This is official SO policy we're talking about here. It governs what you are and are not allowed to post. We're not even talking about how you personally feel about something; we're talking about what you actually say on StackExchange.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:51
  • 5
    @ShmuelH. No. If you think an opinion is unethical, you should respect it. Not only should you respect it, you should attempt to understand where it is coming from and why a person may have that opinion. Otherwise you have no chance of changing that person's opinion. Simply shutting out unfavorable opinions does not serve a purpose and, more importantly, does not facilitate the change that you may demand should be happening. Change doesn't just happen, you have to take accountability and do the hard job of winning hearts and minds, and showing respect to your opponents is the first step.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 22:05
  • 2
    @jpmc26 It changes nothing. He said his opinion in a very respectful way. You may not agree with him, but he did describe way this order is not ethical and way it is against this site's values.
    – Shmuel H.
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 22:22
  • 2
    @ShmuelH. I encourage you to revisit the phrases I quoted in my answer, but if that doesn't convince you, then there's probably nothing left to say.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 22:27
  • 3
    @jpmc26 After reading it again, I can understand your point. a few words in this post are not respectful at all (sorry, I'm after a long working day)
    – Shmuel H.
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 22:31
  • 4
    @ShmuelH. Thank you for the interesting discussion. And now, back to struggling with JavaScript...
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 23:15
  • 9
    @prusswan A strong stand does not require mistreatment of your opposition. Consider the Civil Rights movement of the 60s. The most potent and most remembered methods of opposition involved politely declining to comply with unjust policies.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 4:28
80

Yes it should be removed. It's essentially an advertisement for his political views. They conflate their difference of opinion with the current president as a sky-is-falling scenario.

It reminds me of during the campaign when everyone was asking if Peter Thiel should be removed from the Facebook board of directors and his role at Y-combinator. Now that Trump has won Peter Thiel is a huge asset for both of these companies.

Diversity of opinion is important. Let's keep the meta politically neutral.

80

I initially posted this as an answer to the post. I think the post should be moved somewhere else (on the personal twitter account of the OP for instance?), and removed from SO.


I'm very uncomfortable with this post. I see three four main issues.

  1. This doesn't belong here. SO is NOT a political platform.
  2. Once you wrote one political post, what is preventing you from writing another one tomorrow? The day after? You just opened the Pandora's box.
  3. What if I wrote the same post? Certainly it would have been deleted. I think you're abusing of your moderator privileges.
  4. This is your personal point of view. This might be mine too (or John Doe's, or whatever), but you cannot associate the whole community with one particular political view.

This doesn't mean I don't agree with the content of you post. It's just not the place to put it. At all.

3
  • 1
    The fourth point is probably the weakest. I recognized the post quickly as a personal opinion and I think in general it becomes clear that it isn't associated with the whole community in any way. I think the way out is making something positive out of it, like showing commitment to cultural diversity on SO (if this is actually desired, maybe we don't want that). Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:17
  • 4
    @Trilarion Nothing wrong with the fourth point. The post in question states something like 'time for the community to take a stand'. I'm a member of this community but I didn't sign up to have CEOs co-opt my membership for use in political campaigns.
    – user207421
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 3:05
  • @EJP One can surely see it like this, one can also see it easily different with 'time for the community to take a stand' seeing as a purely optional, non-obligating appeal with no further consequences. In this way you would not need to sign up for anything. Either you take a stand or you don't in which case nothing would happen. Don't say this is the true interpretation, but I see the fourth point as the weakest because I identified the post quite clearly as just an opinion piece early on. Other might see it differently. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 8:43
58

For the record: I was originally for the meta post being allowed to exist, and I am strongly for the political position, but I am strongly opposed to the language used to describe the opposition.


The actions taken by moderators with regards to the target post are morally repugnant, frankly stupid, and counterproductive.

I originally thought that this post should be allowed to exist, but I have realized that it has only served to derail the normal operations of this site and insult any users who may not share the same political views as the poster. Any attempts to correct the offensive language and open up the discussion to all users instead of just those who agree with the political position have been shut down by either moderators or staff members acting in conflict with the site's policies.

This post has done nothing but cause a massive disruption.

It should be deleted outright so we can be done with all of this nonsense and move on with our lives.

(Note that by nonsense I mean the bickering and arguing about whether the post should exist at all, and the complete lack of regard for site policy by moderators and employees alike.)

0
32

I don't think that should be on MSO. It truly has nothing to do with is not specific in any way to Stack Overflow (the site) or its topics.

A blog post seems like a good solution, and then just pin a link somewhere on the SE sites (not just SO). Whether it's a personal opinion or official company stance, blogs should be used for that, not meta sites, right?

Or put it on MSE. It is kinda offtopic there as well, but since it has more to do with Stack Exchange as a network than Stack Overflow as a site, it could pass. Also we get the benefit of other people from e.g. law.SE or politics.SE chiming in (or islam.SE, since they have their own version on their meta, making the post WET, which as we have been taught isn't good).

30
  • 6
    "It truly has nothing to do with Stack Overflow or its topics." Well, that's not completely true. If current politics could influence under what conditions the Stack Exchange site could be run and gains any ROI, that might be an on-topic issue. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:19
  • 2
    @πάνταῥεῖ fair enough, but the same reason could be used for that post to appear on Worldbuilding or Russian language or any of the other sites for that matter; it's more of a general issue than SO-specific, therefore it doesn't belong on MSO. In order for it to affect SO the site it first must affect SE the company, and it should be handled at that level.
    – Luke
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:39
  • 1
    and, well, SE>SO, I'm pretty sure this would benefit from some non-programmers' input as well. Make it a featured MSE post or something.
    – Luke
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 16:43
  • 2
    @TinyGiant isn't SE the company? Look at the copyright at the bottom, it cites SE not SO. I do remember they changed it multiple times however. Nonetheless, this should concern the network, not only one site.
    – Luke
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 17:14
  • 1
    Okay, I stand corrected. Weird how Stack Exchange is attributed copyright, even on the SO site. Sure he is allowed to ask anything, I'm just saying other SE sites should get the chance to express their opinion as well (as seen on islam). To reiterate, this topic isn't specific to SO the site, but SE the network as a whole.
    – Luke
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 17:26
  • 1
    @Tiny Actually, if you read Joel's post, he isn't asking anybody anything. And if you're wondering why SO was mentioned, it's only because MSO is one of the most widely viewed sites on the network so that's where he out it. The explicit mentioning of SO was only to keep it palatable there and preemptively counter any arguments for it belonging on MSE. If SU was more popular it would've gone there and used those numbers instead. There's nothing SO specific that's necessary in that post.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 17:41
  • 1
    I stand corrected on the question part, but I think the rest of that comment is out to lunch @JasonC
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 17:46
  • 1
    @Tiny Is it out to lunch? Then here's a rhetorical question: Why didn't Joel post it on the Patents site instead?
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 17:53
  • 1
    @JasonC Is the name of the company Patents Stack Exchange now?
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 18:33
  • 1
    @JasonC Well why would a Stack Overflow The Company call-to-action be posted on the patents stack exchange? It seems to me that the best meta for a Stack Overflow The Company call-to-action would be Meta Stack Overflow. Do we really have to argue about whether the Meta medium is the most ideal medium for a Stack Overflow The Company call-to-action?
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 18:42
  • 1
    @JasonC It has been Stack Overflow the company for more than a year now. Meta Stack Exchange is the network's meta. Meta Stack Overflow is the stack exchange site's meta as well as the company's meta.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 18:54
  • 2
    SO is the company, but I (and I believe many others) have never perceived this site (MSO) as the meta for SO the company but rather meta for SO the site. There's stackoverflow.blog for company-related issues and MSE for network-related meta discussion. I guess those definitions are up for discussion though (and they would probably require a new question altogether).
    – Luke
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 18:59
  • 1
    @Tiny I am aware of that post and was following for some time but, and please correct me if I'm wrong, AFAIK it didn't stick. The footer of SO still says Stack Exchange, Inc. The SE about page still lists SO specifically as the name of a site it operates. The SO.com whois record still lists SE as the owner. The Wikipedia page still lists SE as the sole company and owner, and nothing else really supports any follow through from that blog post. But I definitely wouldn't mind follow up info.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 19:05
  • 1
    @JasonC Here it goes: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/290430/…
    – Luke
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 19:17
  • 1
    @Luke Nice. Related question here, similar topic: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/290435/… I think between the two we'll be able to get clarity here on a few things.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 20:38
29

Should this post be closed? Well, looks like it cannot be closed because whenever five people close the question, another one to five people reopen it, that'd probably be an infinite cycle as lots of people with enough reputation visit SO every day, and many of them would want to close or reopen the post.

Should it be moved? To the blog? So, one of the creators of SO will express his own opinion in a post on the Stack Overflow blog? Then it could be viewed as the community's opinion, as a call to action against, well... the law! Do we want this to happen? I don't think so.

There are rules on Stack Exchange that everybody must obey, and if someone does not, their post vaporizes within minutes or even seconds. Off-topic posts are off-topic. Period. Why can the one who created the sites' rules break them? If a regular user posted the same 'question', the latter would get downvoted and closed instantly, so what's the problem?

My opinion is as follows:

  • politics is not to be discussed on Meta Stack Overflow
  • the rules about off-topic questions are for everybody

So, let's get rid of this post and try to forget about it as we do forget about hundreds off-topic posts moderators and other users deal with every day.

2
  • 11
    "another five people reopen it" is not an accurate description of the process. Most of the reopens have been by diamond-holders (13 out of 21 so far). Some of them reopened it more than once.
    – user6655984
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:01
  • 14
    @zaq, that's even worse as it shows that some diamond holders misuse the diamond...
    – ForceBru
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 16:03
28

I've cast an up-vote and a close-vote.

Personally, I am strongly opposed to President Trump’s policy, but I really don't think this post is on-topic here, even on a meta site, because U.S. political issues are not that related to Stack Exchange.

This question must be closed, even though it's posted by the co-founder and CEO of Stack Exchange, and has yielded lots of enlightening discussion and touching answers. If we leave this question open, questions like Time to take another stand: President Trump should be impeached, or even Foreigners! Get out of America!!!, may appear on our meta site someday, which is definitely not we want.

I think Stack Exchange could post an article on their Blog instead, if they really want to protest. I'm also glad to see a fifth tag (preferably hidden from ordinary users) apart from , , and , say , which is dedicated to hold such special questions.

4
  • 3
    As a non-American, I am strongly opposed to President Trump’s policy. that implies that you are spokesperson for non-American, which is NOT CORRECT. (If you consider all non-American including me). Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 12:36
  • @MithleshUpadhyay Sorry for the confusion. My answer has been edited.
    – nalzok
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 1:08
  • 2
    @MithleshUpadhyay No, it doesn't imply that.
    – user247702
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 8:44
  • 1
    @SunQingyao, I voted up after your edit. Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 9:44
26

I lean in the same direction as Joel politically. I'm not happy about Trump or what he's doing. Joel's extremely upset, and I respect that.

I'm also seeing people that I respect as members of this site genuinely, sincerely, strongly upset that this view has been injected here. They feel disrespected as people who don't agree with the politics, and as site participants whose dedication and judgement is ignored.

They feel cut off. And that really sucks.

Politics is always going to be divisive. I'm sure political divisions have existed since before our species figured out language. ("Highjumper get more antelope meat for group", thought Shortfingers, grooming a companion's hair, "but other idiots support Flatnose just because taller and promised get rid of Stinkbreath. Fascists.")

But we have a place here where we all come and do something together that doesn't divide us. Here, I don't know how userNNNNN views abortion, and he doesn't care about my thoughts on LGBTQ rights. [Purple language warning: I'm about to use the word "transcend".] We have something in this place that transcends those political divisions: we have a shared purpose in our craft, and in helping each other practice that craft.

When you've got a page of HTML in one hand and a regex function in the other, trying to pull out those <p> and <a> tags, it doesn't matter if you're a lazy latte-sipping libtard, illiterate paleoconservative thug, soulless corporatist hack, or paranoid anarchist wingnut: Tony the Pony is coming for you.

I want refugees fleeing terrible circumstances to feel welcome in my country. It's also important to me that fellow code craftspersons feel welcome on this site. I don't like the fact that raising opinions about the former has endangered the latter.

I acknowledge the idea that the site owner thinks something is so important that it must be discussed here. But I propose that might have been a mistake. If our political disagreements are going to divide us everywhere we go, then where do we go to find the common ground we need, to cooperate despite those disagreements?

8
  • 3
    I'm beginning to come around to the same point of view, despite being initially in favor of Joel's post, after listening to some of the arguments against it and seeing how much backlash it stirred up. On the other hand, I'm still conflicted. Why? Priorities. Programming is neat and fun, and getting answers and having a shared bond is wonderful, but some issues transcend others. Fundamental human rights is one of those transcendental issues. Maybe this isn't the right venue, but at the same time, it is important that we don't avoid important issues out of fear of disagreement.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 14:05
  • 2
    I'd award you a bounty if it was possible on Meta.
    – user247702
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 14:05
  • 5
    @CodyGray I kinda feel the same way but why do we never talk about the great firewall or how we can get the probably talented people in North Korea on this site. If we are going to open up the can of worms we should be doing it equally. Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 14:11
  • 2
    Well, you do have to pick your battles. The US claims to be a representative government, with the obvious implication that its citizens and its corporations have influence over its policies, if not being the ones who dictate them outright. North Korea doesn't make the same claim, and neither does China, at least not regarding its censorship of materials. Beyond that, if SO were headquartered in China, I suspect they'd want to take a stand on the Great Firewall. They probably couldn't because that's how censorship works, but the point is, this affects the functioning of the company that...
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 14:35
  • 3
    provides our access to this website, and Meta is precisely the place that has been set up to discuss issues that affect the functioning of this website. Reading some of the arguments, I can't help but feel like they're objecting as if this had been posted on the main site. It wasn't. It doesn't get much more "Meta" than "our programmers can't work on this site because of US governmental policy".
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 14:36
  • @CodyGray That is close to how I feel about this whole ordeal right now. To put it bluntly, I believe that from the many objections raised against the post the only one that holds any water is that the company misjudged how the community would react, by failing to consider how unreasonable the attitude to political discourse is society-wide (not just in the US, but mostly anywhere in the world) -- i.e. the objection expressed in this answer. I find it hard to condemn the company for that as harshly as people are doing around here.
    – duplode
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 15:06
  • 4
    "Priorities. [...] Fundamental human rights..." Yeah, agreed, @Cody. I erased a paragraph along that line from this answer more than once. Programming isn't life and death; getting kids out of Aleppo obviously is. If I could trade the existence of Stack Overflow for the non-existence of Boko Haram, I would, without a nanosecond's consideration. But I kept coming back to the core idea that the whole group of humanity is made up of lots of smaller groups that cooperate in limited ways. And I think those smaller groups are important to build cooperation for the bigger stuff.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 15:08
  • 1
    I think it is critically important to know what Highjumper and Flatnose think about idea of migrating the tribe from East to West caves. This is top priority
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 7:34
25

Please delete all personal and political views from Stack Overflow. This is the one place I can come and get away from the actions of the world and get serious with the issues of coding and learning something challenging.

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  • 8
    I'm not sure if it's SO Meta's job to be your safe space, but if you stick to SO main you shouldn't have to worry about seeing something you disagree with.
    – ivarni
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:40
  • 8
    Translation: I don't like the discussion, so don't let anyone discuss it. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 20:43
  • 14
    @AlexanderO'Mara And the translation of your POV, to me, appears to be "I like the discussion, so everybody needs to be exposed to it at every possible place and time, in every context", correct? Would you feel differently if Joel had posted a pro-Trump stance? No? Are you sure?
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 1:12
  • 3
    @JasonC That's weird, I didn't say any of that stuff. Now your just making stuff up. And for some reason you keep trying to twist this into being about Trump... Anyway, my point was this was a very irrational argument. I see no reason we should censor discussion because some people don't like the topic. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 1:18
  • 5
    @Alexander I am most certainly not making up what your stance looks like to me. What it looks like to me may not even remotely resemble reality. That's why I asked. Anyways I'm sure that at some point in the past you've strongly felt that something you didn't like should go away, and others disagreed. So have some understanding. And again, would you feel differently if Joel posted a pro Trump stance? Don't dodge the question just because you don't like it.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 1:24
  • 3
    @JasonC I didn't "dodge it because I dislike the question", I ignored it because it was irrelevant. Joel hasn't yet posted a pro-Trump or an anti-Trump post. Joel was very focused on a specific issue. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 1:32
  • 1
    @JasonC BTW, since you dodged the point my comment made, and instead went for some bizarre ad hominem attack, let me ask you: Is this answer a rational argument? Yes or No? Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 3:54
  • 3
    @Alexander Your premise is flawed. This answer isn't an argument. It is a request by the OP to delete content, and a statement of how they feel about it and what their expectations of SO are. It is not your place to claim that the OP is lying about their expectations, or question the rationality of them. None's stated expectations when coming to SO are not up for debate. It is the truth that they have them, as stated. It does not matter if your expectations are different, or if their expectations are or are not realistic.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 3:58
  • 1
    @Alexander Besides, you stated some "translation" that you made up as if it were a fact, yet when I stated that to me I had a "translation" and outright asked you if it was correct (and even admitted that it might be far from reality), you act as if I somehow did a bad thing. But objectively, which of our two "translation" comments was crappier? Can you tell me where to get that "made up translation" pass that you seem to have? I want one too. (BTW, not sure how you weaseled your way out of my question by pretending the post wasn't Trump related but, sure, whatever.)
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 4:05
  • 1
    @JasonC So, that's a "no" then? This is not a rational reason to close it? Because surely we're not going to go delete every post because some random person dislikes it? Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 4:08
  • 1
    @Alexander Since you can't seem to respond to the hard stuff, and insist on just making up translations, I'm sorry, but I simply don't care about you, and talking to you serves no purpose for me or anybody else. I have answered all your questions. You'll either have to be satisfied with that, or not.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 4:11
  • 2
    @JasonC There is a fundamental difference between our translations, and as a programmer, I'm surprised you don't see it. I simplified what the OP said. You concocted some bizarre polar opposite of what I said. This should be obvious. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 4:12
  • 1
    @JasonC To be frank, you've strained credulity to the point of breaking for me. Alas, when it comes to things related to politics, otherwise rational people seem to lose it. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 4:22
  • 1
    In case anyone else wants to try answering the tough question, I'll make it simple: Is "Please delete, I/some-of-us don't like the topic." a rational and logical answer to a question asking what to do? If YES, shall we just start deleting all posts that some random people don't like? I'm sure SE has many, many such posts. If NO, why does such a bad answer have so many upvotes? Are the people upvoting it voting rationally? Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 4:56
  • 1
    @Wildcard Yes. This has been explained by Stack Exchange staff multiple times. Commented Feb 22, 2017 at 22:08
21

I gotta say, Joel posting this on meta disrupted my weekend, if nothing else. I had planned on playing some XCOM 2 and instead spent time reading comments and chatting with people in the Tavern. Now in some respects that's appropriate. A huge problem I see with the executive order is that it took effect suddenly after it was signed late on Friday, which meant Saturday was stressful and confusing to a lot of folks. My brother is an airline pilot and, while he sympathizes with the protestors, he wishes they had picked a different venue to disrupt. I'm sure a lot of travelers think that way.

Similarly, a post prominently featured in the sidebar, that's titled "Time to take a stand" and discusses a politically divisive issue, gets in the way of the normal functioning of this site. If you agree the ban is "morally repugnant", you probably have heard plenty about that on Twitter, Facebook and the news. If you disagree, well, having that opinion broadcast in a space normally free of politics can be very off-putting. I for one don't look forward to four years of bickering on meta. (Or rather, needlessly bickering. ;-)

In general, meta is the wrong place to bring up political issues. As many people have pointed out to me, if Joel weren't a co-founder and CEO of Stack Overflow, his post would have been deleted nearly immediately. (I would say, however, that a handful of other users could have posted the same thing without having it immediately closed/removed.) It sorta feels like he abused his privilege by making a political stand and asking others to do the same.

There's a lot of issues going on, so I'm going to break it up:

Defending the venue.

One idea I've seen is that the post ought to have been published on Joel on Software or the Stack Overflow blog. The first has the advantage of being Joel's personal site and the second has the advantage of positioning the opinion as the company's, but not necessarily the community's. But both have the disadvantage of not being great places for the community to discuss the issue. And that was important to Joel. This isn't his first rodeo; he knew the sort of responses the post would get.

Meta Q&A is beyond bizarre when you think about it. Whenever we have an announcement to make on meta (typically signaled with ) you can set your watch by how long it takes for someone to comment that it's not a real question. I like to direct people toward what I hope they will use the answer space for, but it's really an artifice to avoid the criticism. (And it doesn't always work.) But what people miss is that Q&A is a unique opportunity to write up dissenting responses that are on similar footing as the original post.

When an employee posts something dumb on the blog, the best you can hope for as a user is that readers will scroll to the bottom of the page and find your necessarily-short comment buried among many others. When an employee posts something dumb as a meta question, you can downvote, answer with an equally sized post, comment, edit the post, vote to close and even vote to delete. Now, we can undelete and reopen, sure. But those actions are not necessary if we post on a blog. When an employee posts an announcement on meta, it exposes us to negative feedback. That's one of the reasons we prefer this venue.

I will say I was surprised Joel picked Meta Stack Overflow. This site certainly has the greatest number of people affected by the issue, but it's hardly confined to the developer community. For that reason, I immediately posted a copy on Meta Islam. Reading between the lines, I suspect Joel had in mind the unique position of Stack Overflow within the developer community. That leads me to:

Why this particular issue?

"I am extremely upset by President Trump" is probably a feeling folks are going to have to get used to. Personally, I've had to mute several dear friends and family members on Facebook who have seemingly been outraged 24/7 for months. I'd hate to have people start ignoring announcements specific to Stack Overflow because our CEO has used meta as his soapbox too often. But I think this issue is singularly important for the way Stack Overflow operates. Time to take a stand points out we have plenty of people who particpate from the countries singled by the executive order. It's important those users know they are still welcome on this site.

But I think this is also an issue that has specific impact on the technology industry. In previous jobs, I've worked closely with immigrants from Egypt, Bangladesh and Iran. As far as I can tell, these predominantly Muslim countries produce fine programmers. A cynical way to look at the tech industry's support for H-1B Visas and other immigration-friendly policies is that it provides good workers who are often willing to take less pay. (I will say this isn't true of Stack Overflow since we pay programmers according to an algorithm rather than according to their negotiation position.)

So this particular issue is a concern for the tech industry in a way that other political issues aren't. To quote from a similarly titled post I'm sure Joel had already read:

The tech community is powerful. Large tech companies in particular have enormous power and are held in high regard. We need to hear from the CEOs clearly and unequivocally. Although there is some business risk in doing so, there is strength in numbers—if everyone does it early this coming week, we will all make each other stronger.

Tech companies go to extraordinary lengths to recruit and retain employees; those employees have a lot of leverage. If employees push companies to do something, I believe they’ll have to.—Sam Altman, Time to Take a Stand

(If you don't recognize the name, Sam Altman is the president of Y Combinator.)

One of the effects of giving the community a chance to provide feedback is that we (the community, I mean) can show that this issue matters to us too. We don't necessarily have consensus on what criteria should be applied to immigration cases, but I think there's strong agreement that religion should not be a consideration. We want to be able to work with excellent developers no matter where in the world they were born.

But seriously, should Joel's question be closed/moved?

The post has now been temporarily locked. I'm not sure what's going to happen next, but I suspect it will end up being closed and eventually given a historical lock. We've heard quite a lot both in agreement and in opposition. I think we are close to the point where diminishing returns means there's no new substance being added.

Thank you for indulging us in this opportunity to hear from you, the community, on an issue we don't usually solicit feedback about.

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  • 7
    I am curious why it was cross-posted specifically on Islam.SE. Well I suppose I know why, the ban apparently targets the islamic world. But to say that "Stack Overflow stands with you" on Islam.SE and not on the other communities (like Judaism or Christianity) is off-putting, and, if I didn't know better, pointing the finger. I am a strong defender of secularity, and firmly believe than to fight those arguing about "difference", we shouldn't make the difference ourselves. It just reinforces the idea that there is a difference to begin with.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 22:18
  • 1
    Thank you for the backstory! Something I haven't seen raised yet. From a politically ignorant non-US citizen: how can an activity be called un-American if 50% of Americans (give or take a few, depending on who's counting) voted for it?
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 22:36
  • 2
    @Tunaki: That's a good question and I have a longish answer. The really short version is that I feel Muslims are unfairly targeted right now. I've spent a good deal of time with the other sites about religion that you mentioned and I pretty sure they know where they stand without me telling them explicitly. (If not, I'm sure they'd let me know.) The longer answer is found in something I happened to read over the weekend: Emotional Labor and Diversity in Community Management.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 22:38
  • 8
    @RadLexus: "Un-American" means "things I and my political allies do not believe should characterize America". It does not mean, e.g. things that are not consistent with American history, things that the country was not founded to support, things that the majority of American disagree with, etc. (This is true whether the person saying it is Libertarian, Republican, alt-right, moderate Democrat, extreme Democrat, or nutjob wacko.) Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 22:38
  • 1
    @RadLexus: Good question. I don't think it's entirely clear what Americans think about the specific policy. My guess is that a lot of Americans are fine with being really careful about people coming from these particular countries but not at all comfortable with the way this particular executive order was written. But that's my (not entirely unbiased) opinion.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 22:42
  • @NathanTuggy: ah, I think I get it. I thought it weird because I had heard that same term come from the hon. president (then) elect before Day Zero.
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 22:43
  • @JonEricson: yes! They are not against, and, when asked, guardedly for, because they can see the clear advantages for them and their loved ones and no immediate harm against themselves. It's like changing to another seat in the bus. No harm, no foul. Does that sound like a correct characterization?
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 22:48
  • 2
    @rad The basic idea is that one of America's foundational principles is a nation of immigrants, getting a second chance in a "free" system. Now, you can quibble over whether or not that is actually the system that we have, but there are very few Americans (to an approximation of zero) that would disagree that such is our goal, and history objectively says that's what we intended to create. (Again, we failed pretty spectacularly, in committing genocide against native inhabitants, and etc., but that's—to be glib—an implementation detail. It was against our values when we did that, too.)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 1:37
  • 2
    Contrary to what Nathan said, "un-American" does mean "things that are not consistent with American history." The issue is, of course, that American history has itself been sharply politicized, to the point where many authors of "American History" textbooks will outright make things up to fit into their favored political narrative. So yes, the term gets abused, and you might think Joel is abusing it here, but this is fundamentally what it means. The white man who is in power in America is an immigrant, a few generations removed, and it is the height of irony for them to restrict immigration.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 1:41
  • 3
    @CodyGray: It has not been honestly and correctly used in that sense by one person in ten, if that, and has, if I'm not gravely mistaken, been misused in this way almost as long as it's been in existence, so, as a descriptivist, I'm happier taking what is clearly meant rather than what is claimed is meant. This way we get to tame a word which otherwise is so oversimplified, so value-laden, that it could really only ever be used for exaggerated speechifying that no sane person could take seriously. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 3:39
  • 1
    Anyway, the only argument here is that measures like this are necessary to preserve our security. Even putting aside that such security threads are primarily imagined and socially constructed, there's no argument to be made that "security" is an American value. This is a country founded in revolution and protest, the very definition of insecurity. Even the rational people who support anti-immigration laws concede that it is effectively sacrificing fundamental American values in the name of practicality, under exceptional circumstances, so your position here is very difficult for me to grasp.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 9:17
  • 4
    @CodyGray: That's probably because my thoughts on the meaning of "un-American" have little to do with my opinion of the merits of Trump's order. I don't think "un-American" can be used as anything other than a vague pejorative at best, or rank demagoguery at worst (e.g. Sen. McCarthy's infamous right-wing extremism), but that doesn't mean I necessarily consider that we should shut down immigration, even temporarily and partially, any more than I think we should have interned the Japanese-Americans in WWII… although the Niihau Incident has made me wonder ever since I found out about it. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 9:22
  • 2
    Jon, an excellent post - arguably the best post I've seen associated with the question in question.
    – anonymous2
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 19:34
  • 9
    "But both have the disadvantage of not being great places for the community to discuss the issue. And that was important to Joel." What kind of discussion did Joel expect? If he wanted discussion of whether the policy is good or bad or makes sense, why did he insult the opposition? If that's not what he wanted, I don't see how it's "discussion" rather than "validation of his opinion," which is not an appropriate use of SO. You can definitely get that from blog comments. I think this claim is disingenuous, or at best completely invalidated by his choice of language.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 20:00
  • 4
    Good post, but the arguments presented here in defense of Joel are still weak. "But both have the disadvantage of not being great places for the community to discuss the issue." MSO is not the appropriate place for political discussions, as jpmc26 points out. This is a Q & A forum, after all. Use a blog, chat, or whatever for such discussions. "It's important those users know they are still welcome on this site." Why should any SO user have any doubt on this? SO is not the us government. Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 10:30
20

As a separate answer (I don't want to bundle this in with my other views), I'd like to propose a compromise:

  • Move the post to Joel's personal or the SE company blog.
  • The blogs have comment sections, let discussion happen there (and also this maintains some anonymity from SE profiles, which can be important for a topic like this on a site that many use in professional contexts).
  • Make a short, unbiased, sweet featured meta post announcing only that the blog post exists, and inviting users to discuss it there. No politics or social views in the post, just "Feel strongly about US immigration laws? Come join the discussion."

I think this could potentially keep everybody happy and also keep the view count high. Also a short featured post like that would be palatable on multiple sites, thus increasing the exposure even more.

4
  • Not a great idea, huh. Well, just thought it was worth throwing out there.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 18:14
  • 1
    I believe that SO blog posts are featured on every site. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 18:15
  • @Thomas Ah. I wasn't sure if that was automatic or not.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 18:19
  • I don't know if they have to toggle it or do anything, but we see at least some SO blog posts on the side bar of Software Engineering, and I've seen them on The Workplace, too. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 18:20
10

As much as I agree with the message, I disagree on how it has been published. That is not a question to be in Meta Stack Overflow for many reasons, but mainly because:

  • It's not directly related to the content of StackOverflow.
  • You are reaching only ONE of the many communities in SE, but it affects people from all of them.
  • Not everyone enters in Meta.

I think the best course of action would be to move the question into a blog post and then take one of these actions (or all of them):

  • Put a pop-up message in every single SE community with a link to the post
  • Place it in the list of highlighted posts in every community
  • Change the logo for each community to add a symbolic icon and link it to the blog post.
8
  • 2
    Just an additional point of information re: inclusion: Jon did repost Joel's post over on the Islam site (meta.islam.stackexchange.com/questions/1839/…). That's the only one I'm aware of, there may be other links.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 18:22
  • Thanks for pointing that out. I participate mainly in the community in Spanish and didn't see it there, but I'll be happy to translate it if needed. Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 18:27
  • 11
    @JasonC Quite funny to post it on Islam.SE and not, for example, Christianity.SE or Judiasm.SE (or to post it at all...). The staff is eager to condemn comments by other people targeting the islamic world, but they are themselves pointing the finger. Ironic.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 18:34
  • 7
    Why should everyone, every member of each SE community (!!), see a link to this post?? I believe that there are so many people who don't really care about whatever happens in the USA, so they would be annoyed by this popup. Also, is this post so important for the community? Does it explain any new Stack Exchange features or talk about any Stack Echange news? Not at all, that's just a personal opinion, nothing more.
    – ForceBru
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 15:59
  • @ForceBru and why not? The same way that many other companies have made public their position about that specific topic, SE is in their right to do the same thing (especially taking into account that some of its employees are affected). A link to a blog post is harmless to you or any other user, and fits better for the purpose of the post than a question in meta SO. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 0:48
  • 1
    @AlvaroMontoro, I'm afraid we don't know much about the company's opinion, we know only Joel Spolsky's by now.
    – ForceBru
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 16:07
  • @ForceBru agreed that the original post is from Joel Spolsky, but it seems to be something generalized as the answers and comments from admins and employees seem to be in the same line Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 16:58
  • They are more keen to appease one religion over the others, that itself is pretty telling.
    – prusswan
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 6:22
6

There is no debate. The question violates the SO rules, and therefore should be removed. The content is immaterial.

3
  • 33
    This entire thread is literally a debate, so it seems a little ridiculous to say that there is no debate. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 1:47
  • 3
    @KevinWorkman "There is no debate," means, "There can be no reasoned way of disputing this claim." It's idiomatic. Hopefully that clear up the confusion.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 18:18
  • 1
    @jpmc26 And again I'll point you to this entire thread being full of reasoned ways to dispute the claim. Hopefully that clears up the confusion. Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 2:09
4

I have created a Political Activism proposal on Area 51 where political activism posts can live, survive, and thrive in peace. Support it and help keep Meta.SO on-topic without needing to take a stand against "Time to take a stand".

4
  • 9
    I don't think this would stop Joel from using mSO as his personal soapbox.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 2:30
  • 3
    @TinyGiant Perhaps not, but it provides an answer to "But then where should such political posts be made?" Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 2:40
  • Anywhere but here is also an answer
    – Developer
    Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 2:44
  • @Developer true, but they are off-topic here. They would be explicitly on-topic there, so there would be a strong reason to migrate them there and away from Meta.SO. Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 2:47
2

Plan of Action:

Edit and THEN lock the post, and...

Just locking the post at this point isn't enough. It just makes it impossible to express disagreement.

A Stack Overflow employee (preferably Joel) should edit the post to add in a notice along these lines:

EDIT: I want to profusely apologize for making this entirely off topic post. This post does not fit within the guidelines for the use of Meta SO.

As this post has severely shaken the stability of the definition of Meta SO, I want to take the opportunity to reinforce the definition in full as contained on the Help page:

Meta Stack Overflow is the part of the site where users discuss the workings and policies of Stack Overflow rather than discussing programming itself. It is separated from the main Q&A to reduce noise there while providing a legitimate space for people to ask how and why this site works the way it does. Meta is for...

...Stack Overflow users to communicate with each other about Stack Overflow (asking questions about how the websites work, or about policies and community decisions)

...Stack Overflow users to communicate with Stack Overflow the company (posting bugs, suggesting improvements, or proposing new features), and

...Stack Overflow the company to communicate with the community (soliciting feedback on new ideas or features, or discussing policies that affect the whole network)

Please look around to see if your question has been asked before, and avoid asking questions that have nothing to do with Stack Overflow or the Stack Exchange network. This is not a random discussion area; rather, it's a place for improving our community and website, together.

DO NOT DEFEND the post in the edit. It is indefensible. I don't care WHAT your opinions are. You could have made the post, "Torturing kittens to death is bad," and it would still not fit within the guidelines for Meta SO.

In particular, notice the absence of phrases such as, "Although I still hold this belief," or "although this is a very important blah blah blah," because

  1. It's irrelevant.
  2. It's still using your bully pulpit.
  3. It undermines the whole point of on topic-ness that makes the Stack Exchange worthwhile.
  4. It continues the controversy.

Instead, just apologize for off-topicness and then lock for historical significance.


...Joel, please post the way you should have in the first place.

Here is what could have been posted in the first place, and would not have received the huge proportion of downvotes and argumentation:

I just want to make it clear to our (insert number here)+ users from (insert list of seven countries here) that we value your contributions to this site and appreciate you as members of this community.

That's it. End of story. Not even a statement that, "Trump's attitudes don't reflect ____."

The context of the statement is enough. It would be positive, welcoming, non-contentious, and would subtly indicate your own political views without ramrodding them down everyone's throat.

And above all, it would be ON TOPIC.

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  • 5
    Let's stop beating that dead horse.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 22, 2017 at 22:02
  • 5
    @Cerbrus, feedback on my proposal welcome. I'm calling for an explicit reinforcement of the policies of Meta SO by SO employees, in an edit to that post, followed by a lock. No one else has called for that exact action to my knowledge.
    – Wildcard
    Commented Feb 22, 2017 at 22:06
-4

TL;DR :

  1. The existence of situations where SO, as an organisation or as a community, should express political views is rather undeniable.
  2. The definition of such situations is very subjective and needs to be stated clearly in the site's policy so that no one feels like the staff or the CEO is above it.

Everyone agrees that "standard politics" should stay out of SO or MSO. Folks defending Joel's post do not argue that, they claim that this particular matter is beyond standard politics. Thus, the core questions are really :

1. Is there such a thing as "non-standard politics" ?

2. If so, where is the line ?

I think most people will agree that the answer to the first question is yes. For exemple, if a respected/famous figure of the community was imprisoned or threatened by a repressive regime for political views (god forbid), I don't imagine anyone would complain about the CEO supporting him or her and condemning one's abusive repression. Yet, that would be 100% political. Therefore, situations where SO staff should stand up for political matters do exist.

Now, the second question is much harder to address and chances are everyone has its own line. As several mods (like Tim) let us know that such posts were to be posted again, I believe this should be discussed at least by the staff and stated clear in SO policy.

A possible definition, that Tim, Jon and others used, is that politics is on-topic if it potentially threatens the site's functionning. Many argued it was not the case with the Muslim ban but I'd like to highlight that SE is based on worldwide solidarity and cooperation between folks without any sort of distinction. It works so well because many people from everywhere are willing to share their knowledge with whoever needs it. Therefore, any politics that feed nationalism or any kind of discrimination is ultimately a threat to the very core of this site, especially because this phenomenon is not just growing in the US but everywhere on this planet.

However, there are plenty other possible definitions, more or less wide. I don't think we can all agree on one, but I think we do need a clear definition of what is on topic, so that anyone can share that kind of post and not just the CEO or a mod. That would help everyone, whether agreeing with the view or not, accepting such posts.

5
  • 2
    "I don't imagine anyone would complain about the CEO supporting him or her" If recent events have taught me anything, it is that people most definitely would complain about and/or disagree with this being promoted via Meta. Other than that, it might be worth pointing out that Tim is a staff member, and the staff members have discussed this.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 1, 2017 at 16:06
  • @CodyGray I'm not sure that you're impling this but I definitely did not intend to suggest that the staff hasn't discussed this. What I wanted to say -maybe awkwardly- is that we need a rule for this matter in the site policy, should this rule be discussed by the sole staff.
    – Vincent
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 10:20
  • @CodyGray As for the first part of your comment, maybe I'm too optimistic but I'm not sure that would be the case. I believe people complain here because they object to the fact that this is not "regular politics". In other words, they accept nationalism and some discriminations to be valid opinions. I don't think they would react the same way with more unanimously disapproved matters.
    – Vincent
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 10:28
  • @CodyGray And should you be right about this, maybe that's even more important taking a stand.
    – Vincent
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 10:31
  • 2
    Well said. Stack Overflow has policies against racist or sexist language, which only a couple of generations ago would have been considered politically radical, but no-one says this violates political neutrality, because according to today's standards that view is uncontroversial and therefore considered "apolitical"/politically neutral (when really it isn't).
    – samgak
    Commented Feb 2, 2017 at 21:18
-5

I don't believe that Joel's post is as off-topic as it might appear at first glance. Stack Overflow is not just a Q & A site, it's also an international recruitment agency for programmers, and many of the job listings offer Visa Sponsorship, which is highlighted in pink when you browse the listings. Questions about are on topic on meta. SO is a website that facilitates immigration to the USA and other countries, including from the countries affected by this ban, which therefore affects both the site and its users. So despite the political content of the post, it has a special relevance to the site (moreso than say, a political rant about animal rights or chemtrails or what-have-you). In general, I think that there should be more leeway for political posts when they touch on the site's area of interest and business activities. This is true obviously for posts about things like net neutrality, censorship and copyright, and because of the Jobs section I think it's arguably also true for immigration.

Note: I am not saying there should be a rule that "if it affects programmers, it's on topic" because that could be used to allow anything e.g. "programmers live on planet earth, therefore a rant about climate change is on topic!" But this is something that SO is specifically involved in.

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  • 1
    So, you're arguing that it's on-topic because it touches on the company's revenue stream. Well, that's a good deal more plausible than most of the other arguments; I still would consider the remarkably divisive tendencies to put this out of line, but at least there's one reason to consider it a possibility. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 9:54
  • 1
    People believe that climate change will potentially destroy [create a mass-extinction event that will include humanity amongst it's victims] the planet in a fairly short timescale. This will effect revenue more significantly. - Again, I am trying to make a point here, but also the OP did not make any kind of statement about revenue. His intent was to impart a political stance on us in accordance with his personal views.
    – user2654834
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 12:30
  • 1
    @KimberleyBarrass I didn't mention revenue either
    – samgak
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 18:53
-5

While I have been uncomfortable with the political atmosphere as of recent, this is a site where people share answers to technical questions. There are so many venues within one may explore opportunities to be politically active, and I'm not sure this should be one of them.

I think it would be hard to find a user here who doesn't agree that the diversity on Stack Overflow is what makes it strong. The issue I'm pointing out is simply mathematical:

If there are a million users on Stack Overflow, it's nearly a mathematical guarantee that you will find somebody so deeply disturbed and offended by the actions of the POTUS. However, this will always be true no matter who is president simply by the nature of the number of users here. No matter who you are searching for, they exist within a community with sufficiently large n.

That said, with sufficiently large n you will also find people who do not take issue with the actions of the POTUS. Is it really worth poking that fire in a place we're committed to the betterment of engineers. Let the battle happen somewhere else. Please. It's happening just about everywhere else so it's not like there's a shortage of activism.

Like it or not, no matter how messed up things get, politics will never rise above standard politics. Last year I went without health insurance, was hit by an uninsured driver at the same time which almost cost me my life, had to sue my way out of a dangerous apartment where the locks on the doors weren't working etc. and all of this cost me almost every dollar I've saved in the last ten years. So it's not like I don't understand what unfairness is. But there is a time and a place and I just don't think this is it.

Feel free to disagree with me.

-8

It shouldn't be closed - here, but perhaps MOVED to Politics Beta on Stackexchange's Site for Politics as there is obviously plenty demand for discussion/debate/discourse/chatting/ranting. Perhaps the Moderators can move the matter in question to the mentioned site.

The other forum states:

Politics Stack Exchange is a question and answer site for people interested in governments, policies, and political processes.

So what do you think? Problem solved?

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  • 4
    I don't think it's on-topic on Politics.SE. The Help Center states that Politics.SE is "for objective questions about governments, policies and political processes." A call to take action against something is not an objective question. Commented Feb 15, 2017 at 14:12
  • @S.L.Barth Maybe, but if a question is needed, then this could be fixed. There are enough new questions (headings) on SO, which won't correspond to the explanations afterwards. So the deliberations in the related post which lead to another "subpost" like this one here, are political and introduce implicit questions. If a mod would help to modify the call as you declare it, which is questionable compared to the content, I think that my answer is a valid option/answer, hence I don't understand the downvotings. I don't see a misjudgement on my side, but of course perhaps I omitted (a) fact/s?
    – Semo
    Commented Feb 15, 2017 at 21:31
  • On Meta, downvotes are also used to express disagreement. I guess the downvoters disagree with your suggestion to post it on Politics.SE. Commented Feb 16, 2017 at 7:46
-11

Stack Overflow is a global knowledge-sharing community. The community is the thing that sets us off from other Q&A engines. Sure, the software's good, and the rules work pretty well most of the time. But it's the community that makes this place work as well as it does.

Communities are the best way to organize a bunch of people to get a bunch of work done quickly. Communities are more than the sum of their parts. This particular community is optimized for deciding what to do with certain types of Q&A posts, and then executing on those decisions efficiently. But in the coming years, this community is going to need to do more than that.

Our primary purpose here will continue to be to curate the best programming Q&A on the internet. But we have to do more to keep that goal alive. We have to protect every programmer's ability to be a part of this community, and sometimes that's going to mean taking a stand about things that aren't immediately programming-related.

Meta is the place for the community to set objectives and organize to meet them. The objective Joel is setting here is this: We need to make sure that Stack Overflow is a free and open community in which all the world's programmers can learn, share knowledge, and level up. Current events in the world threaten that.

Yes, it's taking a very U.S.-centric view of the world to say that our current political quagmire threatens global freedom and the ability of all programmers everywhere to join a programming Q&A community. But it's not just here. International current events are pointing in a similar direction, and many of us are hunkering down for a very tough decade ahead.

Stack Overflow will survive, but its survival will depend on its community's ability to organize. Q&A policy is just one thing to be discussed here, but you need to do more. Developers' ability to share information is crucial to nearly every issue that faces our world today. Engineering, science, warfare, climatology, sociology, charity, supply chains, business, education... every single thing in the world is going to be affected by programmers' ability to write excellent code and build ethical software.

It's time for us to fully acknowledge that responsibility. It's not "just a Q&A site". It's developer Q&A and it's absolutely crucial.

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  • 16
    So political posts should be OK?
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 18:51
  • 24
    "We have to protect every programmer's ability to be a part of this community" doesn't have a lot of credibility when those who suffer from the Great Firewall are often left helpless when it comes to the Stack Exchange network.
    – user247702
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 18:51
  • 27
    How do migration restrictions threaten programmers' ability to join SO? Joel's own post demonstrates they are quite capable of contributing to SO from where they live now. Internet censorship, on the other hand, does threaten online communities -- but we don't see Joel taking a stand against Chinese Internet Wall.
    – user6655984
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 18:51
  • 19
    Put another way, does that mean we can expect more posts about political issue from the staff in the future?
    – Tunaki
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 18:53
  • 3
    @Tunaki: I encourage more discussion within the community about issues that programmers face in the world. It shouldn't have to come from staff; I've got my own issues with the way this particular post was deployed. But restricting Meta to Q&A ONLY would be, IMVHO, making a crucial mistake.
    – hairboat Staff
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 18:58
  • 9
    @hairboat "It shouldn't have to come from staff" - So are you claiming that if anyone other than Joel had made that post then it wouldn't have been closed and deleted within minutes?
    – resueman
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 18:59
  • 11
    Programmers face the same kind of RL issues as non-programmers. Can we discuss the environment here? Parenthood?
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 18:59
  • 6
    No one is saying that meta should be limited strictly to Q&A. No one is even saying that it should be any more limited than it has been to this point. I'm saying that political discussion has no place on meta. Along with a host of other important but off topic issues.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 19:01
  • 8
    There are plenty of places on the Internet and even within the Stack Exchange network where political discussion is welcome.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 19:04
  • 8
    @hairboat If that should become a new policy, I would expect at least a post from the staff saying that political issue relating to programming can be asked here, because that is currently not the case. And it should happen before any other posts (should have happened before that one if you asked me). I fail to see how this particular one was programming related, and I don't think it'll help bring the community together, but obviously I'm not the one pulling the strings.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 19:05
  • 13
    @Tunaki You can expect posts from us that talk about issues that face us (as a site or company) or our users if something looks like it might majorly impact either. You're going to see quite a bit more about the nature of Joel's post this week from Abby and myself. We're not turning into a political soapbox, but at the same time, we're here to support every single user that helps us be what we are. And if occasionally that means speaking out against something, especially when our own developers are affected, we're going to do it. There will be a separate discussion about this tomorrow.
    – user50049
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 19:06
  • 8
    @Tim So I'm told that "It shouldn't have to come from staff", but "I can expect posts from [the staff] that talk about issues that face [the SE company]" and it's not a political soapbox. Where is the (objective) line? I guess I'll wait for tomorrow...
    – Tunaki
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 19:08
  • 4
    @Tunaki tomorrow will be much more glorious than these cheese puff things I'm eating because I'm hungry and want to go to bed. It'll also be great because I'll actually be there and not sleeping, which is what I'm going to go work on right now.
    – user50049
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 19:15
  • 10
    @Tunaki two hundreds close votes cast on "Time to take a stand" seem to suggest that community has figured the way to express their disapproval when MSO is used in a way that deviates too much from what is expected. No matter how much diamond holders will police stuff like that, votes of several tens thousands 3K users can make a clear enough statement (hope next time "reopen-policing" of such posts will be more handled by salaried SE staff and less by elected community moderators)
    – gnat
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 9:00
  • 7
    @TimPost "quite a bit more about the nature of Joel's post" We know what the nature of Joel's post is. We've been analyzing it for 4 days! It's objectively off-topic, rude, and divisive; no one has disputed those claims with actual facts related to the post itself. How can you say you're not a political soap box when you're defending the post that turned it into one? What about all the developers negatively affected by doing what he did? You don't care about us?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 18:14
-15

Short answer: no, it shouldn't be moved or closed. The post is generating a lot of useful discussion on how Stack Overflow does and can help with this situation, and with other social issues.

Maybe it could have been posted to Meta Stack Exchange, just because it concerns every site, not just Stack Overflow. But that could be said about a lot of posts here on Meta Stack Overflow, plus I do see an argument for Stack Overflow having specific needs that could be discussed separately from the rest of the network.

And at the risk of being downvoted to death, does it really matter? I know Stack Overflow / Exchange is a place where my fellow pedants can talk everything to death, but are we really that bothered by a single post by a single admin? What does it hurt to just leave it alone and appreciate it for what it is instead of beating it into the ground?

Maybe I should post a meta meta meta question asking if questions about closing questions about social issues should be themselves closed...

7
  • 7
    This. I doubt many of the people advocating for the removal of the post disagree with the sentiment, so really it comes down to wanting to keep this site strictly on topic at all times. Nothing wrong with that in principal, but when you consider the gravity of what's being discussed I think the rules go out of the window. I'm sure others disagree, and that's fine, but frankly this is so important that it's appropriate to post it anywhere people will listen. If you're someone who doesn't like the rules being bent, maybe you can just look past it for this one
    – Clive
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 15:51
  • 5
    Except for the irony that Meta is never "strictly on topic", @clive.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 15:55
  • 3
    The post hasn't generated much useful discussion on what SO can do. In the comments and answers there are a few grand but not quite fully formed ideas, but that's about it. For the most part it's only generated discussion on whether or not it should be here. If the purpose of the post is to generate ideas it should be framed as a question asking for such ideas. It isn't, and the few half baked ideas that have been presented there were more random side effects of an undetected discussion than anything else. If you want to solicit ideas, solicit ideas.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 17:38
  • 3
    @Clive Honestly, if it had been more respectful to people who disagree, I don't think I'd have nearly as much problem with it. But even if it had been, there are still problems associated with the fact that people who disagree don't really have an opportunity to engage in discussion. Additionally, your comment above is dismissive of those who disagree. So what if they're small in number? That doesn't justify mistreating them. And there are other issues that are just as, or even more, important to people. Do they get to post them on Meta.SO because it has a wide audience?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 20:27
  • 1
    @jpmc26 I've drafted about 4 different replies to that, and deleted them all. There's no response I can give that doesn't get into my personal opinions about the group(s) you're referring to, and that's a slippery slope. Suffice to say I don't have a problem with Joel's approach to this, and I disagree that anyone is being mistreated or under-represented.
    – Clive
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 20:57
  • 4
    @Clive So it's okay if I make an inflammatory post about how terrible abortion is? One that completely dismisses self described "pro-choice" people? What if I copy/paste Joel's post and reword a bit to be about that instead? The left and right both have issues like this. That doesn't make the kind of post Joel made okay.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:03
  • 1
    Why are you asking for my permission @jpmc26? Do whatever you think is right. If your opinion turns out to be wildly unpopular, so be it.
    – Clive
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 21:07
-15

I'm quite surprised at the open/close attention the post has gotten. As of almost 24 hours after the question was posted, it had been closed as "off-topic" and reopened a total of nine times, and it had two close votes. Whatever this is, it is one of the most controversial posts I've seen on MSO or on any stack, for that matter. I would not be surprised if we reach 15 or 20 close/reopen cycles in the next day.

What this means for the site is unclear at this point. Whatever the merit of the original post, this is something that is causing an above-average amount of heated emotions.

3
  • 14
    Ominous? Tearing mso apart? C'mon. It's a single post by a single user. I think we'll live through this great tragedy. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 1:48
  • 1
    Thanks, I toned the post down a little. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 2:15
  • 3
    What it says to me is that a useful resource is going to become another Pravda because someone can't keep their politics out of every aspect of their life. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 14:47
-25

This is an obvious one-time thing. And it is relevant: the main point of the post - as I see it - is not to fight Trump but to remember to embrace people regardless of their country of origin. Being nice to people and supporting them in time of trouble does not conflict with American goverment or politics.

So yes, that's what you're supposed to focus on - either through kind words or charity, support people who are having a hard time due to development in U.S. politics. Supporting them does not undermine U.S. goverment. I see no sane argument that would justify being ignorant to their situation. They are people separated from their families, students and professors from their colleges. This is bigger than politics.

5
  • 4
    How do you guarantee it's a "one-time" thing? Again, I really want this post to reach to as many people as possible, but I suspect that MSO is the best place to host it - which is why I proposed maybe moving it.
    – Maroun
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 11:21
  • 1
    This being one time thing is the implicit assumption. Meta.SO was never political, I don't think one post is going to change that forever. People are missing the fact, that sometimes you have to drop the apolitical mask and make a stand for people being oppressed. The real heroes do this even if they politically support the oppresors. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 11:24
  • 10
    How do you infer this is "an obvious one-time thing", an "implicit assumption"? Just like the last time was?
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 11:40
  • 5
    @RadLexus Indeed it was. I don't remember any political posts since then. Arguing that such post will immediately start flood of political posts is simply a slippery slope fallacy. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 11:54
  • 7
    @TomášZato: If MSO can be used as a political soapbox even every few years, that's a serious problem, but it's a much worse problem when you realize that since the founding of the site, politics have mostly gone the way Joel wants, but now are not. So it is far more plausible to, in fact, suppose that this post objecting to one of Trump's actions a few days into his presidency is simply par for the course of this entire presidency: that such events will continue to happen, that Joel will continue to be horrified, that MSO will get yet another political post, and so forth. Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 21:23
-27

Honestly after reading the question, I thought that it should be closed. Regardless of the validity of the statement, it was clearly off-topic. However, upon reading @KasaRahjerdi's answer I felt that the question needed to stay open, if only to preserve that answer.

What he said wasn't about politics, or President Trump, or any other specific figure or people group in history. It was about the pain that is caused when human beings treat other human beings as though they were something less than human beings. As a community of people online, we are in a unique position. Our neighbors, brothers, and friends are scattered across the globe, and despite our vastly different cultural, religious, and familial backgrounds, are brought together by a shared passion. In this place, we are all free and equal. I am very grateful to have read what Kasa Rahjerdi shared with us, and I am thankful to him for having shared it.

No matter what society or time period we live in, as human beings we should strengthen, encourage, and embrace those around us; our neighbors, brothers, and friends. Any action that could reverse the tide of prejudice and oppression on the earth is far too great for one person. But I will keep these things in my heart, and my prayers will go up for Kasa and his family, as well as all those who face similar trials.

People like us built a whole virtual universe out of nothing. Maybe someday we will have a hand in fixing our own.

0
-31

It's fine in the state it is.

There is existing precedent over how Stack Overflow has reacted to momentous and sweeping [mostly US] events which have had some kind of impact on either the site or its users.

It's a temporal event.

While I doubt it's going to be the only time that something like this happens over the era of the Trump administration, it isn't likely that this event is going to last as long either, or gain as much traction/attention as it will right now.

There's really no better venue to discuss this on.

You can argue that personal blogs are a better outlet for this kind of opinion, and I'd agree - if it weren't for the fact that there are employees that are genuinely impacted by this decision.

If it's not the sort of thing you want to discuss, you're not obligated to.

You can safely disregard, ignore, downvote, or do all of the above to Joel's post if it isn't your cup of tea.

Preventing discussion of the matter isn't constructive.

I've learned a lot from reading that post, and while I want the message to convey a specific call to action (a service which I can use to look up my congressperson, etc.), understanding that Stack Overflow has tangible and viable evidence that people impacted by this ban have contributed positively to the site is important information to get out there.

7
  • 26
    Can I discuss recent tax raises in my country (which is not the US), as it is an event that touches me, the employees at the firm I work, and many of my countrymen at the most basic level? Under the same conditions, please: if it's not something you (personally) want to discuss, then stay out of it.
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 23:49
  • 19
    Yeah, I'd like to post about the upcoming French presidential elections as well, which are surely going to touch, among others, international affairs, foreign employees of local firms, immigration, and, maybe the SE employees hired in France.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Jan 29, 2017 at 23:52
  • 10
    A cursory list of better venues to discuss this on, not to mention everywhere else, including real life.
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 0:05
  • 6
    Why isn't the SO blog a more appropriate venue? Heck, what is even being discussed here? The post is an "announcement" more than anything.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 0:10
  • 8
    Did you know that SO has tangible and viable evidence that people impacted by Airbnb's logo change have contributed positively to the site? And everything else, really. This "tangible and viable evidence" doesn't really say much: Given that it's immigration, it would be surprising if a global online community didn't have contributors from a country that was related. And Joel's numbers don't say anything about how many are actually affected unless you saw a stat about how many intended to immigrate, and how many would no longer contribute positively as a result?
    – Jason C
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 0:11
  • 1
  • 10
    "It's a temporal event.", I don't need to see this discussion for every single decision Trump makes.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 30, 2017 at 8:15
-31

tl;dr - The post is going to stay, and stay open. We (as employees) need to reserve the ability to reach you on our own platform if we feel that it's necessary.

However, it was posted in a hurry and we didn't consider everything that we probably should have; we're looking at making some changes down the road. Employees will, on occasion, write announcements here on Meta that aren't really questions when put under technical scrutiny, yet they still exist to get feedback from all of you, which is what meta is all about.

Both Abby and Jon did a great job of explaining our decision to run the post on Meta. There are some things I'd like to touch on, in addition to what they've said, and talk about things going forward.

Let's start with all of the places all of you have been pretty correct to call us on:

Joel's post doesn't exactly convey a call to action.

This is something we'll work on. We came out, we expressed pretty grave concerns, we asked people to take a stand, but we really didn't end on something folks could actually do if they wanted to do something.

We also gave absolutely no hint as to what we anticipated people posting as answers to it. While many folks were able to connect with both the post and what would be good to share, it was a disconnect for quite a few.

It feels weird on meta.

Employees coming to meta in general to give updates or make announcements feels odd, because dissertations in Q&A form are dissonant. We will, as employees, occasionally come to meta to post something that we feel we need to make you aware of. But it has to be our job to make the connection to the format by letting you know the kinds of things we anticipated you replying with.

And to be honest, quite a few things are a little weird on meta. Polls, for instance when we discuss burninating a tag just about work, but they could be more tightly supported and integrated. So could a more proper content archetype for meta announcements.

I know we have a blog, and we love our blog, but there are many times when we'd much rather engage with you here, on our own platform. I'll be writing up a "Things Tim Wishes He Could Build On Meta" at some point this week which will tie into this more directly.

We should be politically neutral

We agree, for the most part. But when something threatens to undermine our ability to provide Stack Overflow to you, or your ability to provide yourself to Stack Overflow, we're going to speak out about it. It's not often, we take it very seriously, and we promise to do a better job going forward (just as I said we would for all future announce-y type posts).

Where we can ensure that we're neutral is ensuring that we don't imply in some way that you agree with whatever we're saying. That .. wouldn't have been an issue if we had ended the post with a clear call to action saying things like "we're asking you to [do thing]", and ending with "We'd love to hear your support if you want to offer it"

Did I mention that this happened in a major hurry during a time when someone's reality had just been flipped upside down, while the rest of us were just completely dumb smacked that it could even happen?

Going Forward

If we do our jobs well, these occasional "come, read this, we don't anticipate anyone having much to say but we're all ears if you do" things won't look out of place. I'll update this post later with my wish list of additional features for meta.

And if, everything forbid if, we feel that something threatens to stop us from reaching you, or you from reaching us, we'll keep everything that you've told us this time in mind. But, that's something we reserve the ability to do if we feel that we need to do it.

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  • 32
    While I agree with everything you've said here, there are two other arguments from the foregoing debate that you might want to address, considering they were made frequently and highly upvoted. Those are: (1) it is not fair and leaves a bad taste in the mouth of many that the CEO and/or employees be exempted from the normal rules of topicality, and (2) posting things that deal with the United States "reeks of American exceptionalism" and users in other countries don't care about these issues. (I could find things in your answer that address this, if I try, but you might want to be explicit.)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 14:26
  • 62
    I feel that there needs to be a better explanation as to why the immigration ban has anything to do with SO being able to "reach" anyone. It's a website on the internet, anyone can access it from anywhere, not just from the U.S. As it stands, I personally (not that it matters to the community, though) still feel like an off-topic agenda was pushed down my throat by someone who has the power to post what he wants.
    – Tricky12
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 14:36
  • 63
    Thank you for your explanations, @Tim. Please bear with me, I do not wish to add fuel to the fire but I would like something to be perfectly clear: is the attitude of the moderation team / SE staff and the complete disregard for our rules and the will of the community taken for granted? Are you basically saying this will happen again in the future and we should either deal with it or go somewhere else? Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 14:41
  • 29
    Can we add a feature to the entire network that would allow me to visually distance myself from the network's political beliefs? For I do not want to be associated with you. Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 14:43
  • 28
    If there'll be more posts like this in the future, please give them a special tag so I can ignore them. It's been mentioned by several people: this is American exceptionalism.
    – user247702
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 14:47
  • 59
    I come to SO for programming related Q/A. I don't care about US politics, and I don't want to have the discussion of it forced on me. SO used to be a place where I'd be guaranteed not to be bothered by stuff like that. That is no longer the case. This still does not answer why Joel's blog or Meta.SE weren't used as a medium, instead of SO's meta.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 15:08
  • 38
    Basically, don't bother me with politics. That's not what I'm here for.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 15:09
  • 44
    Nor does this answer why the original question was written like it was, poor language and all. It was basically a rant. Altogether, the original question doesn't appear to have been thought through, at all. At very least, I'd expect Joel to come with an apology for the way this was posted, with an promise to be better, next time (or a promise there won't be a next time). Acknowledge the concerns raised. Don't come with excuses.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 15:15
  • 34
    There was also no feedback at all from Joel during this whole mess, which probably made things a lot worse than they should have.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 15:20
  • 36
    Note: Directed to SO as whole, not to you Tim :) I would appreciate it if your format of "letting us know" and "speaking out" would not be as derogative as it was in this case, calling everyone who thought differently stupid and all that jazz. That was pretty uncalled for. Also, if you tag something as "discussion", offering an unbiased ground is the key to a healthy debate. If you want us all to chant along with you that "Trump sucks", because that's what I and a few others felt like when reading Joels "question"... Meh. Keep that kind of stuff off of MSO, please.
    – Seth
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 15:36
  • 61
    This completely ignores every reasoned argued everyone has given against this post. Especially the fact it violates the Be Nice policy. This answer is just saying, "We can do what we want, all our policies to protect the community we say we believe in be damned." I am deeply disappointed in everyone at SO, who is apparently unable to get beyond their own political opinions and see that this post is exactly the kind of problem content that has been forbidden from every normal user. This literally makes my stomach upset.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 15:58
  • 32
    Why don't you ask whether we want this kind of biased hate-filled nonsense polluting our site? Pretty sure your platform will be rather useless if all of the regulars leave because you forced your personal political views down their throats and demonized anyone who may disagree. You have a site for politics, keep the political discussion to where it is on-topic. We are not politicians, nor experts on political policy, as such we are not equipped to deal with such posts. This is like trying to convince the president that RegEx should not be used to parse HTML.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 17:04
  • 44
    It may be wise to add an additional banner, "The normal Be Nice and political discourse policies do not apply to staff members wishing to promote their personal anger against a political opinion." This entire thing is still just a slap in the face to every member of this community who tries to be respectful.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 17:13
  • 28
    @Sklivvz you mean the fact that the post itself is blatantly incorrect and based completely on fake news with exactly 0 objective arguments provided? The post's existence is offensive to me.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 17:19
  • 30
    I'm also deeply offended by moderator and employee disregard for community policy with regard to rolling back edits to the post that did not deviate from the intent (unless the intent was to demonize anyone who may disagree) but encouraged those who may have a different opinion from contributing to the discussion. We were told that we were required to ask permission from Joel before we could edit, yet any attempts to request permission were deleted shortly after posting, and Joel made no effort to respond to any feedback whatsoever.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jan 31, 2017 at 20:21

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