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Please read the question carefully, I'm NOT requesting removing the post

Joel Spolsky posted a very touching and inspiring post: Time to take a stand.

On one hand, I really appreciate his stance and his courage, and I truly agree with all that he said (I don't want to add more to avoid converting this post to political one). But on the other hand, I'm not sure if Meta is the best place to host this post.

I couldn't press the "close" button because I want to keep the thread alive, and I want it to reach most of us, but I know that the right action to take is to close the discussion.

Going through the comments of many users, I can see that some think it should be closed, while others think that sometimes bending the rules is essential to do the right things.

My thoughts:

  • Keeping the post might legitimize other political posts, and some users might think that it's OK to have such posts here.

  • Closing it makes me feel bad.

  • Maybe the best action to do is to post it as a blog post and moving it from Meta.

I'm really confused, I would be happy to know what's the right action to take.

EDIT

Since Joel's post targets Stack Overflow, and since we want it to reach to as many people as possible, couldn't it be attached to the main site? As a link to a blog post or a banner or whatever? Doing so will end the "to close or not to close" dilemma and will reach more people.

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    "Time to take a stand against the 'Time to take a stand' question?" Jan 29, 2017 at 13:48
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    Well, that is also confusing. You aren't against it, you just think we should…close and/or move it? Why? Because someone might think it's OK to post whatever they want? This is a dumb argument when it's made about other off-topic posts, and it's really absurd when it's made about Meta. Jan 29, 2017 at 13:51
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    This is a fight you cannot win, the post is there to stay. I just hope that it'll stop at that one post, and not escalate to a regular occurrence for the next few years.
    – user247702
    Jan 29, 2017 at 13:52
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    @Stijn I'm NOT fighting to remove the post, please read my question.
    – Maroun
    Jan 29, 2017 at 13:52
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    I hope it didn't escape notice that the same thing could be said about far more than this one question, @Stijn. If this type of thing escalates to a regular occurrence over the next few years, we'll have a lot more problems than Meta posts to complain about. Jan 29, 2017 at 13:53
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    @Stijn I shared the post on every social media account I have. I want this post to be alive, I'm just wondering if Meta is the correct place, that's all.
    – Maroun
    Jan 29, 2017 at 13:55
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    Strictly speaking, no @MarounMaroun, this isnt technically the right place. But if someone with an important message has a platform they can slightly abuse to get that message across, why are we talking about whether they should or not? Some things transcend rules because of the effect they have on humanity, in my humble opinion
    – Clive
    Jan 29, 2017 at 15:17
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    @CodyGray "Time to take a stand articles considered harmful?"
    – user764357
    Jan 30, 2017 at 0:22
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    It has been reopened at least 10 times.
    – Knu
    Jan 30, 2017 at 5:06
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    @JasonC: Suggested new title: "Time to take a seat".
    – Jongware
    Jan 30, 2017 at 9:19
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    On the other side of the pond: Jeff Atwood wrote a blog post about the same topic blog.codinghorror.com/im-loyal-to-nothing-except-the-dream
    – Braiam
    Jan 30, 2017 at 12:25
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    If Stack Overflow is to become yet another political site, it will cease to be of any worth. Jan 30, 2017 at 14:39
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    No, it shouldn't be closed or moved, it should be deleted and the user warned. It's not only off-topic, it's also baity.
    – david
    Jan 31, 2017 at 0:35
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    @Trilarion "How should he know?" Heh, well apparently, according to Kasra, they "knew" that MSO was a prime place to post to quickly target "politically apathetic, employed, mostly-white males", hence posting it here. So who knows what they "know"...
    – Jason C
    Jan 31, 2017 at 17:19
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    @baudsp: As much as you disagree with that line, don't edit it out. That goes against the intent of the author of this question.
    – Cerbrus
    Nov 3, 2017 at 14:38

32 Answers 32

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-43

The post should stay

  • Did the post make you feel uncomfortable?
  • Did it make you feel like something was creeping into your way of life, something which you wish hadn't?
  • Do you feel like your safety bubble was encroached on?

Good!

This is an extremely exceptional situation that we're all in, and Spolsky's message was an extremely exceptional one.

How do you think the people whom all of this affects feel?

The OP was quite striking to me and I immediately thought "what on earth is Spolsky doing?". But having read through and decided how I feel about the situation in question, I realised that that was the point of Spolsky's post - to get us thinking, to get us taking part and action in this situation.

StackExchangeOverflow is built on the participation of a very large community, consisting of many people of diverse backgrounds and cultures; that much is obvious. However, that very fact that makes us strong as a community is being threatened, and has been allowed to do so by the apathy of all of us. This doesn't affect me or this isn't the place for it is no longer a suitable option (especially because that is what has gotten us all in this situation in the first place).

Arguing about the technicality1 of this post is 100% the incorrect response to it, IMO. Saying things like "I agree with your points, but..." is frankly a cop-out.

This situation transcends politics, especially because the only effective response to this situation is non-political.


1. I realise we're all technical pedants on a technical site, so this is almost a meta joke in itself; at the very least it's ironic :).


★ I'm an Iranian born Australian citizen (and have lived here for 90% of my life) and know very very little about American politics.

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    "the only effective response to this situation is non-political" — what possible (effective or ineffective) response to this is, in any way, non-political? I'm curious. Jan 30, 2017 at 22:51
  • Show kindness rather than hate.
    – Möoz
    Jan 30, 2017 at 23:16
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    That's nice, and I do agree with it, but it's pretty vague at the high level and must be translated into specific actions. Show kindness to whom? How? To what potential cost in kindness to others? Is allowing immigration kindness? Is preventing terrorism kindness? Is trying to prevent terrorism but failing still kindness? These are all questions that turn rather political precisely at the moment they start requiring real people to make real decisions that affect the lives of other real people. And to sweep all that away as a trivial "be kind" is honestly quite disrespectful. Jan 30, 2017 at 23:35
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    (For what it's worth, when I first saw the post I thought "Oh no, Trump is being an idiot again, why do I have to hear more about his horrible stupid policies on MSO of all places?" It was only after looking into the issue more that I fully realized that he was neither as stupid nor as wicked — at least in this — as he appears.) Jan 30, 2017 at 23:37
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    "This is an extremely exceptional situation that we're all in". But we're not all in it. Many of us don't live in the US and are not affected by its imigration policy. The post in question is just an example of an american thinking that America is the whole world.
    – vascowhite
    Jan 30, 2017 at 23:43
  • @vascowhite I live in Aus and am clearly affected; these are people who are just like me (or you for that matter), they are people, as are we. My whole point of saying things like "this doesn't affect me [directly] is a cop-out" is exactly that - what happens to those in the world, not directly next to us, is still relevant to us.
    – Möoz
    Jan 30, 2017 at 23:51
  • @NathanTuggy Showing kindness is not something which can or should be specifically defined. Kindness needs to be shown on a case-by-case basis. Is stopping people travel to and from your country without a justified cause (for that specific person) kind? Nope. Is generalising and stereotyping entire groups of people kind? Nope. The only real and tangible method we can use is "How would I feel in this situation? How would I want to be treated?". I'm 100% sure that not a single person would like of the things proposed in the current situation happening to them, including the proposing parties.
    – Möoz
    Jan 30, 2017 at 23:58
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    @Mooz: OK, so how do you determine what a "justified cause" is, and what happens if you aren't sure or get it wrong? How do you make sure you can allocate enough resources for everyone to get enough individual attention, without allowing someone who wants to cause trouble to simply take up all available resources and cause trouble that way? Again, you are showing disrespect to everyone who must make practical decisions by pretending that this is simple. It is not. The Golden Rule is a lot more sophisticated than it sounds, and its proper implementation is the work of a lifetime. Jan 31, 2017 at 0:04
  • @NathanTuggy At what point did I say that this is a "simple" solution? In fact, I agree, showing kindness (especially aligned with the Golden Rule) is one which is insanely complex and requires a lot of building up of one's character. Which is why I said it. This is an exceptional situation, which is why it will take something exceptionally powerful; kindness. Saying "proper implementation is the work of a lifetime" doesn't exclude the fact that one should start now not at the end of one's lifetime, no?
    – Möoz
    Jan 31, 2017 at 0:09
  • @Mooz: The point is that anything that is complex requires a lot of work and cooperation and decision-making, which, because it is a matter of public policy, thus automatically by definition becomes a matter of politics. Decisions do not stop being political when they become motivated by questions of right and wrong — the very idea is absurd and insulting! Anyone who thinks it's wrong to prevent people from immigrating based on where they lived previously (say) has a political opinion based on their ethics or morals, because they think that policy should not be enacted. Jan 31, 2017 at 0:16
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    @Mooz: The worst part is, of course, that by denying that this is a political problem, you are implicitly stating quite strongly that anyone who disagrees with you simply does not value kindness over hate. This is not how to resolve conflict, and in general is not true, either. It's called polarization, and is the antithesis of cooperation. Jan 31, 2017 at 0:19
  • @NathanTuggy I also never said that this is not a political problem, I said that the solution to this problem is not political. So, far from telling people who don't agree with me are wrong, I'm saying that we need to step outside the bounds of "what fits in here" and go beyond that to our daily characters and attributes. I'd be blind and naive to think that this is not a political problem, but I'd also be blind to think that this problem only exists in the realm of politics. The reason I say that this boils down to our characters is that that's the only thing stronger than politics.
    – Möoz
    Jan 31, 2017 at 1:32
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    @Mooz: Solutions to political problems are at least partly political in impact, even if not essentially political in nature. That is, suppose someone preaches that everyone should repent and turn to Jesus. (Which they should.) Unless all potential terrorists could be verified as having done this, there would still be the essential problem that there are people willing to conceal their violent intent in any way they can, and while Christianity teaches many relevant things about just procedures, it does not grant magical lie detection. So we'd still have fallible policies. And that's politics. Jan 31, 2017 at 1:49
  • @NathanTuggy I feel like we're agreeing over this, or at least starting to, also we're starting to stray in our comments. Happy to continue in chat if you'd like, otherwise thanks for your honest discourse, but at this point I'd rather not extend this discussion here. :)
    – Möoz
    Jan 31, 2017 at 2:31
-47

No, it should not be moved or closed.

Stack Overflow is not a democratic nation-state

Many objections to the post focus on the idea that an "ordinary" user is not allowed to make such political posts. Some have even drawn comparisons between Trump's flaunting of the US government's checks and balances and Mr. Spolsky's use of his position to raise awareness of this issue. There are two major problems with that analogy:

  • Donald Trump did not create or invent America and he sure isn't offering it to everyone for free in order to benefit the community. I believe this is relevant because a creator should have certain rights regarding the use of their work, including the right to decide when certain rules are enforced. A work doesn't automatically become community property because it's popular or useful.*
  • Equating a website with a country is, frankly, a bit absurd. People do not (literally) live on Stack Overflow. No one is born on this site nor do they have to go through a tedious immigration process to enter it. We don't pay taxes to support its infrastructure. Our participation here is at-will and voluntary.

*I'm not saying that it's not broadly beneficial to listen to and even defer to the users in most cases. But we're not all entitled to exercise the same powers as the creator.

Furthermore, Mr. Spolsky isn't shoving his views down anyone's throat simply by stating them. Those who wish to ignore the plight of vulnerable people can continue to do so. It's beyond ironic that some (no, not all) of the people objecting to the CEO's use of his own platform to promote values widely embraced by the majority of the community are conservatives who love to appeal to the "Founding Fathers' intentions" and "majority rule" in order to justify the status quo.

In short, nowhere is it written that all communities must grant equal privileges to all their members at all times. This has never been the case in the United States or on Stack Overflow. One needs a certain amount of reputation on the site to perform certain actions. Why is this any different?

Tolerating hateful views leads to less open discussion, not more

In contrast to the disingenuous conservatives named above, many are personally supportive of the views expressed in the post, but are, in good faith, facing an ethical quandary over the method by which it was delivered. To them I argue that they are taking their zeal for inclusivity to an impractical level, in a way that will ultimately result in more silencing and (self-)censorship.

People complaining about being made to feel unwelcome for their "dissenting opinion" are a bit like Young-Earth Creationists whining that their views aren't being given equal weight with evolution in high school science courses. Extremist or fringe views don't have to be given a platform. Particularly in this case when they're overtly harmful. When marginalized people feel unsafe, they may keep quiet or avoid the community altogether. If we continue to allow the expression of views that make them feel unsafe, we're effectively silencing a lot more rational discussion, with people who are a lot more likely to be rational than the ones we're currently protecting.

Just because an idea can't be proven mathematically, doesn't mean it isn't broadly supported by facts. Politicians across party lines are condemning this action. Foreign policy experts have explained why it's bad for the US. That it's bad for the refugees and deported green-card holders needs no explanation.

Regarding the arguments that this is off topic.

This is a programming issue because human rights affect all of us. As was explained in the post, many programmers are from the affected countries. Members of our community are being threatened and we're wondering if discussing the threat is on-topic. This sends the message that maintaining the purity of our subject matter is more important than their lives. There is a time to stick to principle and a time to decide that other principles, like basic decency, are more important.

Also, please consider the relative costs to the parties involved. It takes a sheltered Euro-American programmer who wants to ignore this issue zero effort to ignore the announcement and go back to their Javascript. How many would even have noticed if not for this Meta discussion? It costs an immigrant programmer in danger of being deported a great deal more to have their suffering made invisible.

"Be Nice" doesn't mean "turn a blind eye to abuse"

There is a point when silence speaks volumes. There is a point when tolerating hatred is a tacit endorsement. Yet right here in this thread we have people honestly defending the notion that treating children fleeing from a war as terrorists is just another one of many valid viewpoints. I argue that this extreme-pluralist dogma is harmful. You should not feel comfortable expressing such an opinion here, or anywhere in a just society. That's called respectability politics, and it's long been used as a tool by those in power to silence resistance by de-legitimizing the anger of the oppressed. Some ideas don't deserve respect.

"But it's not about what you say, it's about how you say it!"

There is some merit to picking one's words carefully. However, that doesn't mean we should focus exclusively on syntax while ignoring the content of the argument. Poor word choice can make an otherwise benign position sound offensive, but no amount of eloquence and civility can make a cruel and intolerant position less hurtful. I could tell you very politely to kill yourself, and that wouldn't make it any less unkind--quite the opposite, actually.

It is unfair to insist that marginalized people and their advocates walk on eggshells to spare the feelings of their opponents whose words and actions are inherently Not Nice. This places all the power in the hands of the anti-refugee camp, who only have to cry "I'm offended!" to shut down discussion. We need to remove the burden of political correctness. That doesn't mean everyone needs to be dropping F-bombs left and right, but it does mean that we should be allowed to tell uncomfortable truths without being censored.

Is this going to be upsetting to some? Yes. But all the people shedding crocodile tears for the refugees while insisting that we continue to treat supporters of the policy that's hurting them with dignity and respect, you are part of the problem. You are not "heartbroken over this issue" if you actively defend the ability of those in power to keep oppressing. Your hurt feelings over being lumped in with them by those of us who are angry about your complacency are not hurting you as much as your failure to take a stand is hurting the victims of Trump's policies.

Joel's post calling this action immoral, un-American, and stupid is not being unkind. It's telling the truth. Because the action was immoral, un-American, and stupid. How about being kind to the refugees?

We are deciding right now what kind of community we want to have. If the privileged majority of Stack Overflow decide their comfort is more important than being welcoming to immigrants, they deserve the narrower, less insightful community they'll get.

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    I want Stack Overflow to be a programming community.
    – Jongware
    Jan 30, 2017 at 18:25
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    Joel has the right to violes the sites rules all he wants. You are correct that the community of SE members have very few rights as compared to citizens of a nation, and the rights of the CEO/president are very different with respect to what they can do. But that's not what this meta post is about. Notice the title here. "Should" not "Can". SO users are expressing their opinion that they do (or don't) appreciate this action, and are asking (hopefully politely) that SE respect that opinion and choose to take a particular course of action.
    – Servy
    Jan 30, 2017 at 18:27
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    As to the be nice policy, that's not so much about what you say as it is how you say it. It doesn't mean you can't share your opinion that you feel a particular course of action is wrong, rather, it's a statement that you should be reflecting that opinion without personal attacks, without being derogatory, staying constructive, etc. You can say that something is wrong, or that an action shouldn't be supported, and be nice. Likewise, you can advocate for world peace, human rights and spaces over tabs without being nice about it. The underlying position isn't nice or not.
    – Servy
    Jan 30, 2017 at 18:30
  • @Servy And they should, if that's how they feel. I happen to disagree. I may need to edit... don't mean to say "users should shut up." Mostly wanted to point out that we don't have room for moral outrage there.
    – Yumecosmos
    Jan 30, 2017 at 18:31
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    To wit: arguments on whether it should be moved should focus on what's best for the community, not "but it's not fairrrr!"
    – Yumecosmos
    Jan 30, 2017 at 18:34
  • You are echoing my point of view here so I'm wondering how it's possible we are disagreeing.
    – Jongware
    Jan 30, 2017 at 18:36
  • @Rad Lexus Most disagreements between rational people result from a dispute over terminology. I suspect we mostly disagree on the definition of "fair" and "best for the community."
    – Yumecosmos
    Jan 30, 2017 at 18:50
  • I think it's the "community" we're both talking about. The one I'm referring to is the programming community, which is what Meta.SO should be discussing. Not the "global" or, narrower, the "American" one.
    – Jongware
    Jan 30, 2017 at 18:58
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    @RadLexus "I want Stack Overflow to be a programming community" sounds like you think SO lives in a well protected bubble in which no issues or problems from the outside affect it within. We cannot simply sit silent and pretend that everything is ok, just because it is ok in our particular sphere.
    – Möoz
    Jan 31, 2017 at 1:34
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    What if the refugee today becomes a terrorist tomorrow? When the person is clothed and fed it will be the time for more religious pursuits
    – prusswan
    Jan 31, 2017 at 4:29
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    @prusswan That's not a safe way of thinking, anyone can become a "terrorist" whether a refugee or not; in fact, terrorism isn't even the major threat in the West, general violence is. Terrorism just happens to be the "scariest".
    – Möoz
    Feb 1, 2017 at 1:14
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    While anyone can become a terrorist, I believe any sane country should exercise discretion in accepting refugees and keep out undesirable elements that are incompatible with or present a threat to Western institutions. Europe has shown me quite enough.
    – prusswan
    Feb 2, 2017 at 12:38
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    @TylerH In real life actions have consequences. The choices we make about our community matter. In hindsight I shouldn't say "we" there, it's othering...
    – Yumecosmos
    Feb 2, 2017 at 21:33
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    I don't need statistics to tell me christians/atheists/jews/apostates are less likely to turn into radical you-know-whos. It's for the same reason why jews are "undesirable" and banned outright from several you-who-wheres
    – prusswan
    Feb 3, 2017 at 4:43
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    The point is that I have a right to keep pests out of my home and I am exercising the right.
    – prusswan
    Feb 4, 2017 at 12:46
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