Timeline for Should the "Time to take a stand" question be closed / moved?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
21 events
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Jun 3, 2020 at 15:29 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
Commonmark migration
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Mar 20, 2017 at 10:32 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
replaced http://meta.stackexchange.com/ with https://meta.stackexchange.com/
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Mar 20, 2017 at 9:16 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
replaced http://meta.stackoverflow.com/ with https://meta.stackoverflow.com/
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Mar 16, 2017 at 15:50 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
replaced http://meta.islam.stackexchange.com/ with https://islam.meta.stackexchange.com/
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Feb 1, 2017 at 10:30 | comment | added | AGuyCalledGerald | Good post, but the arguments presented here in defense of Joel are still weak. "But both have the disadvantage of not being great places for the community to discuss the issue." MSO is not the appropriate place for political discussions, as jpmc26 points out. This is a Q & A forum, after all. Use a blog, chat, or whatever for such discussions. "It's important those users know they are still welcome on this site." Why should any SO user have any doubt on this? SO is not the us government. | |
Jan 31, 2017 at 20:00 | comment | added | jpmc26 | "But both have the disadvantage of not being great places for the community to discuss the issue. And that was important to Joel." What kind of discussion did Joel expect? If he wanted discussion of whether the policy is good or bad or makes sense, why did he insult the opposition? If that's not what he wanted, I don't see how it's "discussion" rather than "validation of his opinion," which is not an appropriate use of SO. You can definitely get that from blog comments. I think this claim is disingenuous, or at best completely invalidated by his choice of language. | |
Jan 31, 2017 at 19:34 | comment | added | anonymous2 | Jon, an excellent post - arguably the best post I've seen associated with the question in question. | |
Jan 31, 2017 at 9:22 | comment | added | Nathan Tuggy | @CodyGray: That's probably because my thoughts on the meaning of "un-American" have little to do with my opinion of the merits of Trump's order. I don't think "un-American" can be used as anything other than a vague pejorative at best, or rank demagoguery at worst (e.g. Sen. McCarthy's infamous right-wing extremism), but that doesn't mean I necessarily consider that we should shut down immigration, even temporarily and partially, any more than I think we should have interned the Japanese-Americans in WWII… although the Niihau Incident has made me wonder ever since I found out about it. | |
Jan 31, 2017 at 9:17 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | Anyway, the only argument here is that measures like this are necessary to preserve our security. Even putting aside that such security threads are primarily imagined and socially constructed, there's no argument to be made that "security" is an American value. This is a country founded in revolution and protest, the very definition of insecurity. Even the rational people who support anti-immigration laws concede that it is effectively sacrificing fundamental American values in the name of practicality, under exceptional circumstances, so your position here is very difficult for me to grasp. | |
Jan 31, 2017 at 9:14 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | I don't see it that way at all, @Nathan. While there are certainly people who have misused it, I don't think they are nearly as numerous as you represent, either now or throughout American history. And most of the people who we would say "misused" it in retrospect have honestly meant what they said. I'm not trying to "tame" a word. I'm describing what is meant by people when they say it, and what is meant by Joel here. It is a very well-known phrase throughout American history, and I think your view is revisionist and politicized. But I'll concede that I have a somewhat liberal bias. | |
Jan 31, 2017 at 3:39 | comment | added | Nathan Tuggy | @CodyGray: It has not been honestly and correctly used in that sense by one person in ten, if that, and has, if I'm not gravely mistaken, been misused in this way almost as long as it's been in existence, so, as a descriptivist, I'm happier taking what is clearly meant rather than what is claimed is meant. This way we get to tame a word which otherwise is so oversimplified, so value-laden, that it could really only ever be used for exaggerated speechifying that no sane person could take seriously. | |
Jan 31, 2017 at 1:41 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | Contrary to what Nathan said, "un-American" does mean "things that are not consistent with American history." The issue is, of course, that American history has itself been sharply politicized, to the point where many authors of "American History" textbooks will outright make things up to fit into their favored political narrative. So yes, the term gets abused, and you might think Joel is abusing it here, but this is fundamentally what it means. The white man who is in power in America is an immigrant, a few generations removed, and it is the height of irony for them to restrict immigration. | |
Jan 31, 2017 at 1:37 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | @rad The basic idea is that one of America's foundational principles is a nation of immigrants, getting a second chance in a "free" system. Now, you can quibble over whether or not that is actually the system that we have, but there are very few Americans (to an approximation of zero) that would disagree that such is our goal, and history objectively says that's what we intended to create. (Again, we failed pretty spectacularly, in committing genocide against native inhabitants, and etc., but that's—to be glib—an implementation detail. It was against our values when we did that, too.) | |
Jan 30, 2017 at 22:48 | comment | added | Jongware | @JonEricson: yes! They are not against, and, when asked, guardedly for, because they can see the clear advantages for them and their loved ones and no immediate harm against themselves. It's like changing to another seat in the bus. No harm, no foul. Does that sound like a correct characterization? | |
Jan 30, 2017 at 22:43 | comment | added | Jongware | @NathanTuggy: ah, I think I get it. I thought it weird because I had heard that same term come from the hon. president (then) elect before Day Zero. | |
Jan 30, 2017 at 22:42 | comment | added | Jon Ericson Staff | @RadLexus: Good question. I don't think it's entirely clear what Americans think about the specific policy. My guess is that a lot of Americans are fine with being really careful about people coming from these particular countries but not at all comfortable with the way this particular executive order was written. But that's my (not entirely unbiased) opinion. | |
Jan 30, 2017 at 22:38 | comment | added | Nathan Tuggy | @RadLexus: "Un-American" means "things I and my political allies do not believe should characterize America". It does not mean, e.g. things that are not consistent with American history, things that the country was not founded to support, things that the majority of American disagree with, etc. (This is true whether the person saying it is Libertarian, Republican, alt-right, moderate Democrat, extreme Democrat, or nutjob wacko.) | |
Jan 30, 2017 at 22:38 | comment | added | Jon Ericson Staff | @Tunaki: That's a good question and I have a longish answer. The really short version is that I feel Muslims are unfairly targeted right now. I've spent a good deal of time with the other sites about religion that you mentioned and I pretty sure they know where they stand without me telling them explicitly. (If not, I'm sure they'd let me know.) The longer answer is found in something I happened to read over the weekend: Emotional Labor and Diversity in Community Management. | |
Jan 30, 2017 at 22:36 | comment | added | Jongware | Thank you for the backstory! Something I haven't seen raised yet. From a politically ignorant non-US citizen: how can an activity be called un-American if 50% of Americans (give or take a few, depending on who's counting) voted for it? | |
Jan 30, 2017 at 22:18 | comment | added | Tunaki | I am curious why it was cross-posted specifically on Islam.SE. Well I suppose I know why, the ban apparently targets the islamic world. But to say that "Stack Overflow stands with you" on Islam.SE and not on the other communities (like Judaism or Christianity) is off-putting, and, if I didn't know better, pointing the finger. I am a strong defender of secularity, and firmly believe than to fight those arguing about "difference", we shouldn't make the difference ourselves. It just reinforces the idea that there is a difference to begin with. | |
Jan 30, 2017 at 22:02 | history | answered | Jon EricsonStaff | CC BY-SA 3.0 |