Ryan Polk, our new(ish) Chief Product Officer, has published his first blog post, which speaks to the path to socially responsible AI and his vision for the place that Stack Overflow has in that. As always, we invite your comments and discussion, both on the blog post itself and also here.
11 Answers
I feel that to be accepted by the community, we need a little more than "It's the future, honest!"
I'm a former moderator on meta.stackexchange.com and a current moderator on Pets and Super User. In general - AI companies have not shown social responsibility at all - ranging from widespread plagiarism - locking in content created by the commons into black boxes even they don't understand, to a replacing jobs with AI to increase profits.
Now is not the time for moving fast and breaking things because the people left fixing the broken things are the developers.
Well, in the context of the community, its the moderators, and community team, and quite a lot has broken over the last few months and years.
In the context of the Stack Exchange family, we've lost many voices in the company that spoke for us - multiple CMs and Devs who were close to the community. We've also lost core community members - many of whom probably could have helped bridged ties.
The reaction from the community - of people who contribute to the knowledge and commons about AI has been fairly heavily weighted towards it not being a net benefit. We even had a strike over how SO inc tried to handle our content in an attempt to deal with GenAI.
Stack Exchange the sites and chat are a product and what should be funneling people into things. They're often neglected, and kicked aside for other products. You wouldn't have OverflowAI without Stack Overflow, and frankly the rest of the network often gets ignored completely, despite us serving a wider, more inclusive audience. Healthy, happy communities also mean better more constructive feedback.
Speaking of broken - chat covers much of what Discussions could be, and I'm told discussions as it is has a very broken moderation system.
Stack Overflow is now on a journey to create a new era in the practice of AI: the era of social responsibility. As we prioritize the continued growth of Stack Overflow for Teams accelerated by our GenAI offering, OverflowAI, the addition of time-saving new experiences on the Stack Overflow public platform through OverflowAI, and the expansion of our strategic partnerships—it is all through the lenses of developer flexibility, data quality/accuracy, and community attribution.
If you wish to be socially responsible, it needs to start here. I believe the company talked about putting in 10% of developer time into GenAI (shortly followed by a large scale retrenchment of about 20% of staff).
Social responsibility needs to start at taking care of the community, and our needs. We've traditionally had deep ties and a large proportion of staff who were active in the community - but with actions over the last decade, that trust is lost. I would think social responsibility and showing we can trust your directions starts there.
I guess GenAI is the next shiny, but what about the things that were ignored?
Under your predecessor, we had a fairly positive relationship with the company. She put resources where we needed them and got the community team rebuilt. I figured, given time and resources, we were going in a decent direction before the recent pivot to GenAI.
We have never been a community of bots and AI. With our community cores, it’s always about people and mutual help. I've learnt a lot from the people who used to be on SE and left due to all sorts of reasons - many of which were a result of the company not acting in a socially responsible manner and understanding our needs.
We've always been a community of people with common interests. We've had, unfortunately people who never really understood that, and assumed we were really a Q&A site duct taped to, over time, a job site (SO Careers), a SaaS service (Teams) and later on whatever the AI plan is. We're communities of enthusiasts and experts who do Q&A. I mean, would I mind having a Q&A tool at a future job? I'd love it, but I'm not sure I'd put in a good word for SE in the current shape and form of things.
I get the feeling that y'all are out of touch with our needs. We need solid working communities first, and an AI is never going to be a community. At best, it’s a tool, at worst, a drain on resources.
If you want to be socially responsible, start with these communities. Understand their needs and what makes them unhappy. Give folks the tools we need to mend broken trust, and our communities. GenAI does nothing for social responsibility.
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1You make lots of good points, but "Under your predecessor, we had a fairly positive relationship" seems like a stretch. I'm assuming you mean Teresa (there was no "VP of Community" before Philippe) - her tenure had the Monica situation as well as many other incidents, e.g. lots of friction between the community and a former Director of Public Q&A who shall not be named. I'm pretty critical of SE in general but would argue some things actually got _better_since then (and of course others got worse and overall it's still bad). But maybe the situation is looking different from a mod perspective.– l4mpiCommented Jan 19 at 12:25
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15@l4mpi Teresa joined SE after the Monica debacle (early 2020) and actively worked towards rebuilding the relationship with the community. See The company’s commitment to rebuilding the relationship with you, our community. IMO, Teresa brought the right kind of change from the side of the company. However, initiatives she started did eventually just stop. For example the roadmaps (see Please bring back the Community Roadmap posts)– VLAZCommented Jan 19 at 12:39
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6Theresa took over at rock bottom as CPO - while I don't agree with many of the choices made, on the whole she left the community/company relationship in a better place. While I don't remember everything and there's probably a good many things that skipped my radar, I try to keep the details mostly straight - not from the perspective of a moderator, but rather someone who probably cares a little too much about the community as it was, as, and ought to be ;) Commented Jan 19 at 12:45
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2Right, seems like I misremembered the timing - Teresa joined roughly a month after the legal agreement between SE and Monica, although that situation was still the main topic at that point in time. I don't quite agree with her "bringing the right kind of change" as I mostly remember meta posts filled with good intentions and hot air, and ultimately nothingburgers - which might of course not be her fault but attributable to company politics. Still, the community relationship with the company was heavily damaged at this point and even though band-aids were deployed trust was never restored.– l4mpiCommented Jan 19 at 13:13
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2"We're communities of enthusiasts and experts who do Q&A" - if only. But perhaps Codidact will fare better in the long run. Commented Jan 20 at 1:34
If, instead, individuals interacted with AIs like they were any other community member, transparently collaborating, building, and contributing knowledge, the entire community benefits.
This is not a symmetric relationship; it's an abusive relationship.
AI tools can be used to create massive amounts of content with little to no supervision or effort. Curation of that content is a huge human effort that cannot be performed by automated tools. Worse, content provided by AI tools is rarely identified as such so that the real humans involved do not have a choice whether to opt-in or opt-out. This is understood to be the major risk of GenAI to society. This isn't a secret, and anyone paying attention to AI is aware of this. The worry is not a Skynet-style human-killing AI; it's production of AI content to an extent that the real humans can't filter it out from real information, whether it's propaganda from state-level actors, falsified reviews and other content to push commercial products, or just inept programming advice. This is a danger for GenAI itself, too, since these models are trained on the very types of data that AI is now being used to create.
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31"Curation of that content is a huge human effort that cannot be performed by automated tools." what's more, it can't even be wholly performed by humans. Because the tooling falls short, is inadequate, or completely missing for a lot of work that needs to be done.– VLAZCommented Jan 18 at 17:07
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9Funny thing is this brings to mind The user never gives anything back to the community, but only takes GenAI takes our content, sticks it in a blender, and the stuff that comes out isn't always usable. Commented Jan 19 at 13:28
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This is a legitimate concern but not a new one and not unique to AI. The US government has been operating fake social media accounts for years. Just one of many examples: cbsnews.com/news/… Commented Jan 25 at 15:41
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3@KevinKrumwiede Of course, but AI tools allow it to be done at scale with minimal cost. Commented Jan 25 at 22:20
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@BryanKrause I don't see a gain for the propagandists, though. The average person is already fully convinced by a simple press release blaming Russia. Commented Jan 26 at 15:52
AIs will become another member of the community—and the community can decide the quality, accuracy, and value of their contributions.
No.
Check out the definitions in Merriam-Webster or on Wikipedia. You see words and phrases like "social unit", "group of living things", "shared socially significant characteristic", "people with common interests", "body of persons", "interacting population of various kinds of individuals (such as species)". Tools are not part of a community. The community is only the people.
I think it's wrong to ignore AI. It can unlock some new possibilities for how people interact with each other and artifacts they produce, where "artifacts" in the context of Stack Overflow and the Stack Exchange Network include questions, answers, comments, discussions, articles, chat messages.
People, however, must come first. And I see a potential glimmer of hope when you talk about onboarding and engaging the users - the people that generate and consume content - across the Network. However, this needs to take precedence over "the AI focus".
Developers need tools and resources to produce quality, safe, and secure products, while enterprises need to trust the tools and resources to not introduce risk to their business.
This is key.
Your own 2023 Developer Survey revealed that over 25% of developers do not trust the accuracy of the output of AI tools. Although large numbers of respondents do see potential benefits of and have favorable sentiments toward such tools. A recent ACM TechBrief cites a study out of the University of Queensland and KPMG Australia that found over 60% of people globally do not trust AI.
I'm honestly not sure what angle I want to take here - as someone interested and involved in technology ethics, as an expert on tool qualification who is also involved in build and buy decisions, as a member of the Stack Exchange community and a moderator on two Network sites. From all of these angles, I don't see things coming out of the company that demonstrate the ability to help developers with quality or help enterprises reduce risk. In fact, I see the opposite. I see decisions or thinking that is actively harmful to trusting not only the content on the Network, but making it more difficult to have organizations that I have more trust in build trustworthy tools.
And this goes back to needing a people-centric focus. Human people need to be at the heart of every decision. But it seems like trying to cram "AI" everywhere because it's a buzzword is what's really at the heart of company decision making. And that's going to lead to a lack of trust in the product and, more importantly, the data.
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5So they want AI to become a part of community, huh? I use ChatGPT daily in my work and it's a cool instrument. But there is a huge difference of communicating with tool or with a colleague. The day, when AI can validate his own answers to prove their correctness, I will change my mind, but as of now AI must have a human supervision. We don't want to have here a bunch of meaningless posts or another queue to handle.– SinatrCommented Jan 22 at 11:05
It feels like Stack Overflow is frantically trying to find excuses to introduce AI into the site, just because "everyone does it and it's the next big thing". Like FOMO. Did we exchange badges for NFTs in January 2022? Did we encode our answers in a blockchain in January 2018? No, because there was no need to use those technologies within the site. Should we add AI features to Stack Overflow in January 2024?
AI can be a useful tool for programming, there's no denying that. Making it easy to access and use for everyone interested might be a good and reasonable goal. But where is Stack Overflow in that equation? Must it be in there? Or could Stack Overflow just be a different tool or rather resource to make programming easier? Could Stack Overflow remain to be the alternative to generated code?
Roses in the dust
Violets on the road
Programming is more than
Generating code
Taken and adapted from a YouTube comment by "freecodecamp" from Tom Scott's video on "The consequences of your code"
Rather than treating AI integration as prerequisite, and then tinkering with ideas and ways to achieve that, I suggest to think about what the community (that is us, in case you forgot) actually needs and wants, and start doing that. If AI can help with that, fine. But if not, then maybe don't use it?
Image generation sucked until the invention of GANs. Then GANs got better and better in their niches, until they hit the crest of their splinter skill mountain. Yet it was not until the advent of Stable Diffusion that we had truly universally capable image generation.
I think it's entirely possible that the current approach of LLMs is the next GAN. Vastly superior compared to all we had before, but ultimately still flawed in its approach to the problem and not useful enough to solve it. We might find ourselves starting from scratch after realizing we've hit a dead-end that was still "not good enough". Maybe, by building increasingly larger LLMs to overcome halucination, we are building bigger and bigger rockets to overcome launch cost, when all we needed was re-usability.
Personally, I think generative AI is a tool that humanity hasn't even fully understood yet, let alone mastered. And striving for "mastery" now, with proclaimed noble goals such as "socially responsible usage", seems like a premature move on "our" side of the product. The ability to trace sources of generated results as well as prevention of hallucinated results has to come from within the technology itself. It cannot be outsourced to a few poor volunteers who, hour after hour, weed through content that can be generated within seconds.
GenAI output is already contributing to fake news. Facebook is full of "X made this Y" fake craftsmanship postings. Twitter is full of false claims. Websites are full of engaging stories split into 20 paragraphs on 20 pages to maximize site impressions and clicks. Only telling in the fine print that the story is fictional and provided for entertainment purposes. "News" sites, even reputable ones, are putting out false stories as facts, and their efforts of tidying up later are lackluster at best.
The Internet is dangerously ill. Creating, publishing and spreading anything untrue - AI generated or not - takes a fraction of the time that it takes to rectify it. And while we can maybe laugh at many of the faked photos, we probably won't laugh at hallucinated code that ended up in critical infrastructure.
So please, don't act as if AI was ready to be released into the world, and don't think you can reasonably enforce quality in a system that has no reliable quality control in its design principles yet.
The AI providers claim "Please use with care, may generate wrong answers." Stack Overflow's processes have been designed over the years to avoid having a need for this claim on its own answers. But once we allow AI content in its current state to flood the page, Stack Overflow loses that advantage.
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3Indeed. The analogy is going to be programmers of the near future. There are going to be those that will be programming through a variety of ChatGippity and/or copilot and then there are those, the Cobol programmers of the "AI"-age, who do old school development, using old school knowledge, skill and cunning to solve problems requiring a brain rather than an algorithm. Stack Overflow is part of the Cobol crowd, not the "AI" crowd. Unless it completely reinvents itself, which at this point I am shocked it hasn't happened yet.– GimbyCommented Jan 23 at 11:31
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1I would also like to point out that when I say "LLMs may not be useful enough to solve the problem" I am talking specifically about code. LLMs are good at generating text, but code isn't "text". It's an accurate recipe, where understanding the exact difference between 1 and 2 is important. LLMs predict what is likely to be next. But code is at its core mathematical instructions on bits, and likely isn't good enough, it must be right. For LLMs, we just the hope that the truth has been predominant in the training data and it was transferred into becoming the most likely prediction.– LWChrisCommented Jan 26 at 6:56
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"what the community actually needs and wants" - ah, but AI is the community now, so they just ask ChatGPT what it wants and do that. Commented Jan 26 at 11:17
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1@OrangeDog That is why I included the "that is us", which reads spiteful, but is actually an honest clarification. GenAI tools are nothing like us. We usually realize when we don't know an answer and subsequently actually don't write one. But AI will always give an answer, one that likely feels right at first glance. But we can only hope that is because it is - but no guarantees. AI could always post iffy answers instantly. Their contributions cannot be treated equally, as our answers mostly come from knowledge, and where the authoring itself is already a proof of work.– LWChrisCommented Jan 26 at 13:41
The "north star" metaphor has been twisted and abused for so long now that it may be naive to expect any meaning at all from words found in its vicinity... But for the sake of discussion,
Our north star is offering a true collaboration between the individual, AIs, and a global community — working in unison to solve problems, save time/frustration for developers, and speed up innovation responsibly. Now is not the time for moving fast and breaking things because the people left fixing the broken things are the developers.
I'll translate:
Our guiding principle is slow and deliberate facilitation of information transfer between individual developers, developers as a group, and some well-funded databases built from the work of the former whose future value might be jeopardized if access to future work gets more difficult.
I'll contrast this with the original principle which drove the creation of Stack Overflow:
by programmers, for programmers, with the ultimate intent of collectively increasing the sum total of good programming knowledge in the world.
Now, times change and so do stars; just as the star that points north in our sky today is not the same one that our long-ago ancestors navigated by, so it is with these metaphorical "stars". What matters isn't the mass of gas, but where following it leads...
In 2024, we’re looking at how we can continue to enable developers and technologists by welcoming AIs into our ecosystem and providing paths for everyone to collaborate with AIs. Our alpha testers are trying out an early experiment, conversational search, and we’re looking at doing more. AIs will become another member of the community—and the community can decide the quality, accuracy, and value of their contributions.
I certainly hope that it won't become part of this community. Stack Overflow is, and should remain, a site by humans and for humans. I come to Stack Overflow for information generated and vetted by humans. If I really wanted ChatGPT hallucinations.. err... "answers", I can easily go to ChatGPT myself; it's unclear what value Stack Overflow would be adding in this case.
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3Yep, on SO agent Smith has taken the form of ChatGPT answers. We could say they're around. Commented Jan 22 at 4:34
and we’re looking at doing more. AIs will become another member of the community—and the community can decide the quality, accuracy, and value of their contributions.
If you're considering introducing AI involvement to curation or answer-post-generation, I invite you to please first read the following posts of mine:
My answer- especially at the part that starts with "you've got to (not really, but it sure would be nice if you'd) talk with us and think real hard about [...]"
My answer to If SE introduces system-generated answers, how to fit them into SE's question and answers model.
Didn't the title and formatting assistants violate OpenAI's policy for Sharing and Publication?
How could AI be used to augment curation tooling? with emphasis on the last bullet point
Is the cost of ChatGPT integration into Stack Exchange sustainable?
My answer to Is there a correlation between opposing the use of AI-generated content on Stack Exchange and rating AI low in general?
https://meta.stackexchange.com/revisions/384378/2 around the section "My Closing Unsolicited Personal Thoughts: Do AI belong here on SE?" (this was written against individual person-operated users posting AI answers
Please think hard about the design questions I raise in those posts, and involve us in your thinking process.
To summarize my personal feelings, I'm apprehensive of that direction.
Now is not the time for moving fast and breaking things because the people left fixing the broken things are the developers.
Wow.
- The tag scores have stopped updating
- Top users not updated for about a month
- Error when clicking calendar view for daily visits
- AI search: sometimes returning no results, toggling off takes hours, opting back in days instead of instant
- Questions and Articles are occasionally duplicated into two identical posts created in the same instant
- The Cookie Policy link is broken
- Cookie pop-ups are repeatedly displayed on international sites & translations are not reflected and displayed in English
- New activity indicator (bullet/dot) in Custom Filters no longer displaying
- Why is the URL advanced search operator only finding lowercase URLs?
Sentence #1:
As a company, we strongly believe that the community of the world’s most engaged developers and technologists and the answers they share will ensure the success of AI’s future.
Eh, I was more hoping for "we strongly believe that AI will ensure the success of the community of the world's most engaged &c".
Doesn't the sentence as stated say "we will sponge off the community of developers to develop AI"?
The aftermath of every scam Kickstarter is pretty much the same: dozens sometimes hundreds of the same comment where the poor sods tries to invoke their rights under a ToC which has not been in effect over a decade. Of course no one from Kickstarter ever reads these or even if they do they certainly don't care.
So it is here.
Ever since the company decided to walk down the dark path, set a well known corporate butcher as CEO who, as could be expected, fired CMs and probably a lot more people we do not know about then sold to a private company -- and be happy it's not a corporate raider I guess they didn't see much value in it -- no one reads or cares what you post here. Y'all made it clear you want no AI on the site which is ignored. Yeah there's a ban on AI generated answers but that's a trivial concession which cost the company nothing. But the search is now AI powered and so on and so on. You can't stop the enshittification by complaining. It doesn't work.
The Reddit community tried to strike. It didn't work. Eventually the company told the moderators to open up or be replaced and most relented. By now it's quite clear nothing has changed over there.
The big twitter exodus has seen ... Mastodon exploding to a full 3% of the twitter userbase. Yay.
This place ostensibly has a lot of damn smart people. So instead of complaining try to find a better solution. The dump of the data is available so perhaps stand up a competitor and organize a mass move over? Of course these sites will always be higher in Google and there will always be power hungry trolls who will gladly put on the moderator hats so these sites won't die at all. But perhaps, eventually, a better alternative for monetization could be found and the new sites could flourish.
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1Complaining is cheaper than investing money and time to make something better. There is inbuilt inertia. But still, just imagine power users were fully standing behind the mission, motivated and answering questions or handling tons of flags day in and day out. Part of why SO had to lay off employees is surely because they couldn't sell their current ideas that well to their user base. Sometimes we all have to live with a suboptimal solution. Commented Feb 9 at 17:44
The future of AI: help develop AI or you’ll be laid off, and after you help develop AI you’ll be laid off.
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Looks a bit like it. How does it feel to only be the delivery guy of some training text for the AI instead of directly interacting with other humans. I asked that already How do content authors feel about AI powered searches using their content for summaries? Commented Feb 9 at 17:40
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Responsible AI is important. I have found that using AI tools daily has changed the way I ask questions. It feels more natural. The current AI search that is being tested on SO is very well thought out. It gives references to all the source information on the response. Allowing me to see it in a context that helps me see my unique case more specifically.
Credit and Attribution are critical elements of SO. In addition to the references to questions. Maybe a hit counter on number of times a question is referenced in an AI Response, and new Badges to still help acknowledge good questions and Answers.
For those concerned about source data and false answers, if that data is from SO then it's already been curated and ranked by voting and accepted answers.
If an AI generated response to a query is returns a wrong answer it's really no different than when I find a question/answer that looks like it would help but does not.
So the current AI All this basically does is it allow SO to help you find data quickly.
Imagine AI prompting for correct TAGS when asking a question. Or alerting a person is asking that the question is incomplete and could use some additional data to ask a question that can be answered.
Also Off-topic alerts to the asker of the question could happen and redirect them to the correct SE site.
All of this leads to people getting answers to questions faster.
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10"If an AI generated response to a query is returns a wrong answer it's really no different than when I find a question/answer that looks like it would help but does not." - no. because current "AI" do not have actual understanding, they can more easily "interpret" a question or context wrong, and give information that does not fit the context or the question.– starballCommented Jan 24 at 20:37
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"All of this leads to people getting answers to questions faster." Faster yes. Good answers that are actually helpful and improve the productivity? The jury is still out. I've made good and bad experience with AI so far. The same goes for SO, but there I would still say that I profit more from a combination of google and experts giving spot on answers to difficult problems. AI is currently mostly helping me in avoiding and speeding up repetitive tasks. The clue is how SO and AI get combined. To the better or worse. We'll see. Commented Feb 9 at 17:38
community-vp-questions
, promised to read/respond, and here we are several months later, still waiting for responses.