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The Pain Points:

  1. For askers who treat SO as a help desk, a dupe closure is a point of frustration because they want to receive answers specifically tailored to their question.

  2. For answerers who treat SO as a help desk (and say that they aren't here for the rep gains [...pfft]), a dupe closure is a point of frustration because tailored answers cannot be posted while the page is closed.

  3. For duplicate close voters who strive to prevent the accumulation of redundant content and rep farming, FGITW help-deskers and non-curators create frustration.

  4. For duplicate close voters who want to give tailored advice about how to implement the dupe target's advice, they can only shoehorn poorly-formatted text into comments under the question.

  5. For careful/discerning answerers who are wary of answering a question which has a high probability of being a duplicate, they must burn minutes hunting for duplicates (while other users post carefree answers) despite being knowledgeable enough to answer immediately.

  6. Answerers are not meant to also vote to close duplicates because it can be seen as a technique to block competing answers from being posted.

  7. Despite SO's documented goal of getting answers on a specific topic in one place, duplicate close voting does not signal answerers to transfer their unique insights to the dupe target(s).

  8. Despite SO's documented appreciation for some duplicated content, duplicate closed questions count toward a question ban. False asssertion.

  9. While some questions can be legitimately closed as a duplicate AND have some other aspect that makes the page unsuitable as a signpost, the system does not permit that dual distinction.

  10. Eliminating the reputation benefit of asking and answering duplicate questions can only be combatted by downvoting content (which might not be merited based on question quality) and/or by deleting the closed page. For content curators, these actions are tedious, significantly draining of time, and can lead to revenge voting and/or re-open/close/undelete/delete wars.

The Solution:

  1. Instead of changing the terminology from "Duplicate" to "Resolved Elsewhere" (which I have previously suggested), the new page status should be called something positive/optimistic: "Potential Signpost". The subtext for the page status can be like: "Significantly unique questions which have been resolved elsewhere may be retained to help direct readers to recommended advice."

  2. All upvotes and downvotes on the page will be tracked/presented normally, however, all reputation changes (including rep cost for downvoting) will be held in escrow (potentially indefinitely) while the page is marked as a "potential signpost". Yes, this is retrospective -- all rep changes will be reverted upon the page becoming a signpost.

  3. Contrary to all other close vote options, which indicate that the question is unfit for the site, there will be no answer-block implemented. This means that after a question has been labelled as a potential signpost, answers can continue to be posted -- even by the user who voted the page as a potential signpost, if they so wish.

  4. This feature will be deliberately unattractive for rep-motivated contributors to bother posting an answer on potential signposts. Adding unique insights to the open target page(s), will be the simplest way to gain rep. As a secondary benefit, if a user who answered feels that the question and its resolving insights are sufficiently distinct from all other pages on SO, then they can vote to remove the potential signpost label. If successful, the rep points will no longer be in escrow.

  5. To prevent unilateral selfishness in removing potential signpost status to gain rep, there should be no "un-hammer" privilege (except for moderators) for the potential signpost label. Honestly, there would no longer be a reason to rush the decision because answers can already be freely posted.

Wins:

  1. Askers who ask good, clear questions will be allowed to receive answers even if they ask a question that has been asked/resolved elsewhere.

  2. Answerers don't have to wait to post an answer after searching; they can rush an answer, then go hunting for a page which covers the same narrow topic.

  3. Close voters don't need to rush to close for the sake of rep farming prevention. When the page is eventually closed, all temporarily earned rep will be withdrawn and held in escrow.

  4. Those who would have ordinarily voted to reopen a borderline question just so they could answer will no longer need to vote to reopen and wait to answer; they can answer and express their argument for uniqueness in their answer.

  5. Users who too zealously delete questions to prevent other users from earning rep from answering duplicates will no longer need to bother voting to delete -- while a potential signpost, no rep benefits will occur.

  6. This new scheme will motivate users to seek earlier posted questions and post answers there for a real chance to earn rep -- this will breathe new life into pages that have been collecting dust.

  7. SO and 3rd party search engines will have MORE total content on a potential signpost because answers were not blocked -- this will increase the ability to find vital keywords/phrases.

  8. Ultimately, this gives users more freedom to share insights while reducing the grumpiness that many users encounter in the Q&A.

  9. At a later stage, when signposts are accumulated, it may be appropriate to merge, reverse signpost directions, or delete pages based on their content quality.

Some Additional points:

  1. Answers, while specifically resolving the asked question, may include compelling points regarding why the question is different/nuanced versus the page(s) to which the signpost points. This should not only help curators to resolve disputes, but also inform the asker and future readers about nuances.

  2. Since this "experiment" may or may not be successful in creating a positive net impact, this feature should only be in effect for newly asked questions from the datetime when this feature is officially deployed.

  3. In terms of question bans, it should neither be a good nor a bad thing that a user asks a duplicate question. If they ask a good, clear, on-topic question which happens to become a good signpost, then they are not doing any harm. If a user is posting low-value, unclear, off-topic questions, then this is obviously not desirable regardless of if the question has been asked or resolved elsewhere. Potential signpost status should not count toward a question ban.

  4. Voters will need a UX separation for voting a question as a potential signpost versus an off-topic/unfit question. Ideally, volunteers should be able to signal both when appropriate -- that a question is, for example, resolved elsewhere AND unfit for the site under the other criteria.

  5. Some thought should be given to the how Mortarboard, Epic, and Legendary badge calculations should work in the event that large sums of rep are released from escrow.

  6. If this feature proves to be beneficial, then it can be incrementally applied to earlier years of content. If this feature proves to be harmful, it will be very easy to revert the applied changes -- all rep is taken out of escrow, question bans can be recalculated, and signpost pages will be closed as duplicates.

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    "For askers who treat SO as a help desk, a dupe closure is a point of frustration because they want to receive answers specifically tailored to their question." I must admit, and this might seem a little "harsh", but good. Stack Overflow isn't a helpdesk, so users shouldn't be treating it like one. It's not a surprise that they have a poor experience as they aren't using it as it's intended. Just like when you use a hammer to put a screw in a wall.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 15 at 13:57
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    "Askers who ask good, clear questions will be allowed to receive answers even if they ask a question that has been asked/resolved elsewhere." Can you elaborate on why closing as a duplicate doesn't give the user an answer? If the answer to their question exists somewhere else (on the site), but instead of for the nth day of the week and the variable is called MyDate, it's for the xth day with a variable called Foo, why do we need a 2nd near identical question?
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 15 at 14:12
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    I'm saying that I personally hold no value in the auto-redirect feature. Manual redirect is fine with me. The system should let me decide where I navigate to. Commented Jan 15 at 14:29
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    Your comment also, however, doesn't answer the question I asked: Why does closing a question as a duplicate not provide the asker with answers?
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 15 at 15:02
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    "Contrary to all other close vote options, which indicate that the question is unfit for the site, there will be no answer-block implemented." - One of the main purpose of the current duplicate closure is preventing answers. A dup-hammer makes the duplicate closure faster exactly for preventing new answers for a duplicate question as soon as possible. I agree that sometimes a tailored answer looks suitable. But for every such good answer there will be 100 answers which are plain copy of existing ones, and thus useless and even harmful for the site.
    – Tsyvarev
    Commented Jan 15 at 17:30
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    @Tsyvarev yes, currently closing dupes does prevent answers, but not retrospectively -- so FGITW users know that if they rush an answer, they can beat the curators. As a curator/closer, I hate this "game". I want to disincentive the speed answering. I want people to mark new duplicates and post unique insights on earlier questions because... Commented Jan 15 at 19:58
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    So you want to have to now read 10's of questions for multiple different solutions for the same question, rather than 1? I, personally, would find that UX awful, and I'm sure many others would too. Fortunately, the duplicate feature at the moment stops that.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 15 at 20:08
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    So you're using behaviour of others doing what doesn't align with the goals of the site as a reason to make those things allowable..? Nope, that just cements my opinion of this being a terrible idea.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 15 at 20:35
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    withholding rep when a post is ~~~closed as a duplicate~~~ marked as a signpost puts even more weight behind closing as a duplicate. It means suddenly this action of pointing users to the best answer now influences the reputation people earn from their contributions. That seems like it'd be even more problematic than the current system.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 15 at 20:44
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    I understand that you want answers to the same question all over the place, @mickmackusa , and I strongly disagree with that. I understand you want to service users that treat the site as a helpdesk, and I strongly disagree with that.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 15 at 21:28
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    "The difference is that the new hammering destroys rep changes, instead of limiting answers." - so basically, you expect that people will move their answers to get rep, and also stop voluntarily answering because they won't get rep - and that this is better than simply preventing them from answering in place... somehow? Perhaps you might consider that people who write good content are often much more intrinsically motivated, and already recognize very well that the reputation system is horribly broken. Commented Jan 16 at 0:36
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    For the record, that doesn't invalidate any of my comments here.
    – Thom A
    Commented Jan 16 at 13:29
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    @mickmackusa and that's not a problem with the curators. The problem is in lacking tooling. The problem is in lacking effort from SE's side with their quantity over quality changes over the last few years. That you even suggest that the curators are the problem is absurd.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 17 at 8:13
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    Your observations are coloured by your own bias and opinion. Your interpretation of these observations seems very subjective... So no, they're not simply "accepted as truths".
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 18 at 13:11

2 Answers 2

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For askers who treat SO as a help desk, a dupe closure is a point of frustration because they want to receive answers specifically tailored to their question.

For answerers who treat SO as a help desk (and say that they aren't here for the rep gains [...pfft]), a dupe closure is a point of frustration because tailored answers cannot be posted while the page is closed.

SO is not a help desk, and askers and answerers who treat it like one are misusing the site software and interfering with the site mission. It is not the goal of SO to provide tailored answers. It is the goal of SO to provide high-quality answers. A high-quality answer requires a high-quality question - which entails asking in a way that makes the question applicable to others. Tailoring the answer is generally reducing quality - except insofar as giving one arbitrary object example of a common problem is illustrative of the general pattern - because it entails not explaining things directly to the reader, but addressing the OP - from the ordinary reader's perspective, an unrelated third party.

Therefore, when setting site policy, there is absolutely no reason to consider the goals, aims or frustrations that are specific to these groups.

For duplicate close voters who want to give tailored advice about how to implement the dupe target's advice, they can only shoehorn poorly-formatted text into comments under the question.

Speaking as someone who commonly gives "tailored" advice of this sort: I don't want to do this. I do it to preempt objections and try to mitigate how the site is perceived externally. And really, it is never about "how to implement" the advice - it is about why the OP's question is really an instance of the canonical.

The point of the site is not, will not be, and never was to get other peoples' code to work. It is to answer questions. As such, it's not part of the job to guide others with "implementing the advice". The job is to communicate the advice as clearly as possible.

For careful/discerning answerers who are wary of answering a question which has a high probability of being a duplicate, they must burn minutes hunting for duplicates (while other users post carefree answers) despite being knowledgeable enough to answer immediately.

If a question has a high probability of being a duplicate, then it also has a high probability of having an acceptable answer. In fact, in many cases there are way too many answers, almost all of which are mediocre. The skill to discern such questions doesn't necessarily translate into skill at writing stellar answers.

But when it does, the people who write stellar answers should feel more at home writing them for the best possible version of the question, which ideally is also the one that gets all the search engine traffic and thus puts their stellar work in front of more eyeballs.

Answerers are not meant to also vote to close duplicates because it can be seen as a technique to block competing answers from being posted.

It's the other way around. Close voters are not meant to attempt answers, because the purpose of close votes is to signal that answers should not be attempted.

Despite SO's documented goal of getting answers on a specific topic in one place, duplicate close voting does not signal answerers to transfer their unique insights to the dupe target(s).

How often do they actually have unique insights?

For example, if I look at the most "frequent" Python questions that aren't also about common specific technologies - the ones most commonly used as duplicate targets - the top 30 questions, by my accounting, have an average of over 25 answers - and all of them have at least four.

While some questions can be legitimately closed as a duplicate AND have some other aspect that makes the page unsuitable as a signpost, the system does not permit that dual distinction.

Sure it does. That's what deletion is for. An OP that doesn't ask a suitable new question, and also doesn't properly describe a suitable old question, is therefore not asking a suitable question at all. It therefore has no place on a question and answer site.

instead withhold rep on signposts

Unsurprisingly, I like the sound of that. The rest of your points about the existing system are fine, and they naturally lead to that conclusion.

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  • I fully disagree that "It is not the goal of SO to provide tailored answers.". Askers are expected to offer a MCVE and fully expect to receive answers which resolve the asked question. Answers from 2008 are absolutely horrible when they say: "RTM, call array_walk_recursive()`" These low-value, no-implementation hints are more akin to a comment versus actually being helpful and generous resolutions. Every asker would prefer an answer WITH an implemented solution versus general guidance with no implementation. It is elitist to believe worthy readers can figure out implementations on their own. Commented Jan 16 at 6:40
  • If a question is clearly and accurately asked, resolving the question should also "get other peoples' code to work". Obviously. Implementing the solution within the scope of the asked question while clearly communicating the resolving advice is absolutely how one crafts an appropriate / generous / excellent answer. ... How often do people have unique insights? Since SO has MILLIONS of pages with answers, sharing something unique can be quite hard. If you are not aware that a new question is a duplicate, you might remain blissfully unaware that you actually only spew redundant insights. Commented Jan 16 at 6:49
  • Deletion is for content that cannot be rescued from "unfit-ness" or has otherwise been abandoned in an unfit state. A question's identification as a signpost is a completely different evaluation from other close reasons. If a signpost is a sufficiently unique version of the scenario and does not suffer any close-worthy problems, it should stay alive as a signpost. If the page is unfit and cannot be rescued, delete it. The decision to delete should be based on the question's quality in accordance with the site's on-topic guidelines. Commented Jan 16 at 6:54
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    If the question is a duplicate, then editing it cannot rescue it from the reason it was closed - since making it "not a duplicate" would require fundamentally changing what is being asked. Of course, sometimes the title can be fixed to make it a better signpost. But per my previous stance, if there is no such potential to redeem the question by editing, it should only be kept long-term if there is a novel, otherwise-useful answer that doesn't get (re)moved. Commented Jan 16 at 7:12
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    I fully disagree that "It is not the goal of SO to provide tailored answers." You can disagree, @mickmackusa, but that doesn't make it true. A large part of your suggestions is based on your (incorrect) interpretation of how SO (should) work(s)... Which invalidates all of that.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 16 at 8:22
  • @Karl "If the question is a duplicate, then editing it cannot rescue it from the reason it was closed" pertains to the current system. If my feature was implemented, "duplicateness" would no longer be a page closure reason. Commented Jan 16 at 9:51
  • @Cerbrus there is no true/false when it comes to what a "good" generous helpful question is. It is an opinion to say what is good, this is why is it okay for me to disagree. Since my interpretation of what I think is best for this platform/system/community is subjective and personally formulated by my lived experience, it is an opinion and is not definable as correct/incorrect. You are free to have your opinion and I am free to have mine. Maybe you are fine with the status quo; I'm seeking initiative to try to improve user behavior. Commented Jan 16 at 9:56
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    @mickmackusa The goal and intended purpose of SO is not an opinion. It's defined by the company. There's nothing subjective about that. So yes, you are objectively incorrect there. You may find a question to be be helpful, but that does in no way mean it's automatically part of the purpose/goal of SO.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 16 at 11:15
  • The goals of SO are vague / poorly defined / open to interpretation. For instance, some duplicate questions are welcome ...well, how many is some? The company does not say. Commented Jan 16 at 13:01
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    Eh, no. Duplicates are duplicates... Duplicates should be closed as such. Please, province a official source that states some duplicates shouldn't be closed.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jan 16 at 14:49
  • That is the spark of this feature. It is challenging the convention in an attempt to change behavior. We need more awareness that The fundamental goal of closing duplicate questions is to help people find the right answer by getting all of those answers in one place. This feature urges users to post unique insights on open dupe targets. Commented Jan 16 at 22:00
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    @mickmackusa unfortunately meta does not fulfil that goal. Only a very small subset of people actually look here and those people are pretty convinced their idea of the truth is the truth. If you want to inspire change, you'll need to build up a popular Youtube channel. Then you have a voice in this day and age. Here? You're just shouting into an echo chamber mate :)
    – Gimby
    Commented Jan 18 at 10:24
1

All upvotes and downvotes on the page will be tracked/presented normally, however, all reputation changes (including rep cost for downvoting) will be held in escrow (potentially indefinitely) while the page is marked as a "potential signpost".

I find that feature good neither from the answerer point of view, nor from the view of preventing duplicate answers:

  1. [Answerer] Every good content is rewarded. Even answers on closed question give the reputation. The only not rewarded content is deleted content (because that content is not shown). Why an answer on a duplicate (I use current terminology) should be an exception? It is simply unfair to the person who creates that answer.

  2. [Answerer] There is a difference between copy (stealing) answer from one question to the duplicate one and actually tailoring the solution with some modifications. The former answer should not exist at all, but the latter is actually a pearl. Why the latter answer is not awarded?

  3. [Preventing duplicate answers] Once the duplicate mark will be removed, every answer to the duplicate question will give the reputation to the owner. Because of such possibility to gain reputation from the duplicate answers, such answers WILL be posted by "rep-motivated contributors". And it will be difficult to detect stolen answers, because you need to check many questions with "duplicate" relationship.

I agree that some duplicate questions will benefit from the tailoring answer(s). But bunch of duplicate answers (see point 3) far worse than that benefit.

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  • 1. If a duplicate question is otherwise fit for Stack Overflow, why block contributors from answering it? Volunteers hate to be silenced, it's frustrating. Instead, they can answer, but if they actually want to be rewarded, they need to post a unique answer on the dupe target. This is more fair than telling the user that they cannot post an answer. 2. Plagiarism should always be flagged and downvoted. Tailoring an answer seems fine to me. There is no system reward for answering a dupe because we want to incentivize getting all unique solutions for a topic in one place. Commented Jan 15 at 21:18
  • 3. Pages that have the signpost label removed will be in the change history. If someone is gaming the system, there will be proof. It can be addressed Commented Jan 15 at 21:18
  • Right now, there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON/REWARD to search for duplicates or consolidate content. Commented Jan 15 at 21:19
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    "1. If a duplicate question is otherwise fit for Stack Overflow, why block contributors from answering it?" - Because we (SO) want all solutions to a single problem to be consolidated in the single place. "... if they actually want to be rewarded, they need to post a unique answer on the dupe target. This is more fair than telling the user that they cannot post an answer." - We want only unique answers, and it is perfectly allowed to post it in the duplicate (linked) target. In that aspect the current system works perfectly.
    – Tsyvarev
    Commented Jan 15 at 22:27
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    "2. Plagiarism should always be flagged and downvoted." - As stated in the point 3, it is difficult to detect plagiarism, if an answer on one question is copied from another question. That another question could be a duplicate target, or even another question with the same duplicate target. Currently it is sufficient to check answers only to the same question.
    – Tsyvarev
    Commented Jan 15 at 22:31
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    "3. Pages that have the signpost label removed will be in the change history. If someone is gaming the system, there will be proof. It can be addressed." - The point 3 is not about "gaming the system". If there is a probability that answering will get the reputation to a person, the rep-motivated contributors will post such answers. They will post answers even if such probability doesn't depend from them but from some other factors.
    – Tsyvarev
    Commented Jan 15 at 22:37
  • 1: No, the current system behaviour does not work correctly-- answers posted before the dupe closure are rewarded and unique insights are usually NOT transferred to the dupe target because there is nothing to provoke such activity. My feature does not reward answering a question before or after it is labelled a signpost. If an answer is posted, then upvoted or accepted, then labelled a signpost, then the answer is likely to notice the loss of rep and learn how/where/when to post answers. The feature is designed to steer unique insights to a single place. Commented Jan 16 at 6:26
  • 2: If you find content that is in anyway unhelpful or is plagiatism, then downvote it and potentially vote to delete the answer. Leave a comment explaining your issue with the post if you want to educate the answerer. If you downvote an answer on a signpost page there will be no cost to the downvoter. If the page's signpost label is lifted, then your dv will cost -1. Commented Jan 16 at 6:30
  • 3: answerers are 100% free to waste their time posting loads of answers which will not earn them any points. I am confident that even slow-learners will eventually learn what the system wants them to do. Commented Jan 16 at 6:33
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    @mickmackusa: It seems you treat useless answers which don't give reputation as answerer-only problem. But they are problem for curators too. We need to check their correctness (and express it via upvote/downvote), we need to edit them for fix grammar and representation issues. And, more vitally, we need to detect non-unique answers and delete them. "2: If you find content that is in anyway unhelpful or is plagiatism, then downvote it and potentially vote to delete the answer." - Again, the problem is not to react on plagiaism, the problem is to detect plagiaism.
    – Tsyvarev
    Commented Jan 16 at 8:55
  • If an answer to a signpost is not unique to SO, then users can downvote the answer if they wish (with no personal cost). This will make it easier for bad signpost answers to receive del-votes. As content becomes better consolidated and related, it will only get easier to identify plagiarism. I am sure AI enhancements will emerge to assist witj identifying duplicate/redundant advice on the site and plagiarism sourced from anywhere. Commented Jan 16 at 10:03
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    @mickmackusa - After you have answered a handful of questions, 2 reputation point, to downvote low quality answers is insignificant Commented Jan 16 at 11:43
  • @Sec ...okay, I agree, what is your point? Commented Jan 16 at 13:02

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