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I know how to mitigate the "fall of Stack Overflow".

The site should be made newbie-friendly

Or, rather, question-friendly.

I realize that such a blunt suggestion is likely to be met with immediate backlash, from all sides.
But please hear me out.

Please note that although I try my best to express myself, English is not my native language and sometimes the choice of words, as well as grammar, are not perfect. Please try to get past such glitches to the actual meaning. This proposal is very dear to me; I was pondering on it for a long time. Please give it a thought. It actually makes sense.

Stack Overflow declares its Noble goal as "to build a library of detailed, high-quality answers to every question about programming". But such a library cannot exist without, well, questions. So Stack Overflow also lets people ask, but it gets rather picky about what it's willing to answer: only "practical, detailed questions" that "have not been asked before" are welcome. While for a user, a Q&A site is generally seen as a place to turn in times of need, regardless of the nature or magnitude of the problem. A place where they are a matter of some importance, not just a building material for a great library.

Besides, there is a major miscalculation that hinders the achievement of the Noble goal: Stack Overflow puts too much emphasis on adding new answers, more and more new answers. Only adding new answers will earn you a decent amount of Internet points, while updating an existing answer will bring you none. This approach is great for answering ad-hoc questions, but, ironically, for the Library it doesn't seem so. Just a funny fact: on the same tour page Stack Overflow is proud to call itself "not a forum". But if you open a random popular question, it looks exactly like a forum thread, with dozens (if not hundreds) of replies, some of them even arguing with each other. And this lengthy discussion doesn't quite fit in with what I imagine to be a "high quality answer" (singular) - what I consider to be the direct result of such a policy.

Still, the experience for people who come for help is the worst.

The problem

Most of the questions currently asked on Stack Overflow are off topic. And that means something has gone very wrong.

Right now I am looking at the list of new questions under the [Java] tag. Many of them are either already closed, or in the process of being closed, with one or two votes. And it's no wonder, given the list of closure reasons provided below. Though just the first one is enough, since after all these years, 90% of new questions are inevitably duplicates, more or less. And we don't see all of them closed on the spot just because it takes a considerable effort to find the right duplicate, while Stack Overflow doesn't offer a single Internet point for that, so few people care. Let's have a look at the list, though:

  • Duplicate
  • Needs details or clarity
  • Needs more focus
  • Opinion-based
  • Needs debugging details
  • Seeking recommendations for books, tools, software libraries, and more
  • Not reproducible or was caused by a typo

(After putting them together, I can't help but hear them intoned by a snarky teacher).

But, jokes aside, there is a real problem: this list outlaws most newbie questions out there. When you think about it, asking a good question is a skill in itself. And even for a professional, it takes considerable effort. Yet, the same skill is expected from someone taking their first feeble steps in the profession. But instead of help, most newbies are met with closures and downvotes. Because Stack Overflow doesn't want stupid questions to get in the way of the Noble goal.

So it's no wonder that too many people are starting to see Stack Overflow as a hostile place, which has even become a meme. There is an old article, The decline of Stack Overflow (not to be confused with "The Fall..." mentioned below), followed by a heated discussion on Reddit, where people are using rather strong language towards volunteers and moderators. And - I think - undeservedly. The entire community cannot be trolls. The problem is not the people, it is the system. Mods are not evil. They simply follow the rules which are designed to serve the Noble purpose.

Still, all their efforts are for naught. It's just technically impossible to ban all the people who have no idea about the Library, but just have a problem and are looking for help (which could be just a nudge in the right direction or a fresh pair of eyes). For them, it's just natural to ask a programming question on Stack Overflow... only to find that their question isn't good enough for that site.

On the other hand, many people who have the time to help a fellow undergraduate, do not understand why it's forbidden either. Or how to actually earn their internet points, if most questions must be closed, not answered. Or, for that matter - how to earn enough reputation points that would enable them to actually close a question, or at least to leave a comment. That's too twisted a logic, people will never buy it.

And that brings us to the point of this article. You are probably aware of this recent post, The Fall of Stack Overflow. It's a fact that traffic is drying up. This means that Stack Overflow is less in demand as a "library of quality answers". But there are still people out there who need help.

I think it's time to embrace them. Yes, of course proper research needs to be encouraged. But it doesn't mean that learners should be just flipped off. Stack Overflow shouldn't be an elitist club. A Q&A site has to be open for everyone.

Creating better experience for those who ask

Why not do it this way: just let a silly question be answered, but then simply delete it altogether, without much ado? It will make everyone happy, yet such questions won't get in the way of the Noble goal!

I strongly believe that the following changes must be implemented:

  • No voting down on questions. It serves absolutely no purpose other than to harass the OP and as a flag for the future auto-deletion. Optionally, there could be some canned responses that explain how the question could be improved, which is much better than a downvote. That was the least significant part of the whole idea, and facing so much opposition, I can give it up
  • Instead, there needs to be an option to flag a question as having no community value
  • Questions flagged as such, must simply be removed after being resolved (or after a reasonable timeout)
  • The closure reasons listed above should just add such a flag, but don't close the question, letting anyone answer it.

The irony is that it will be pretty much the same as the current approach (when low quality questions are downvoted, closed, but still answered, guerilla-style - in the comments section under the already closed question - and finally get automatically deleted). But - without all the rancor! You see, it's really simple: if a question is going to be deleted anyway, there's no point in punishing the OP and there's no harm in answering it. Same result but without all the bad vibes!

Fulfilling the Noble purpose

Even after making it hard for newbies, the Library is still not that great. When we land from search, it's the same old answer to an ad-hoc question that Google, for reasons best known to itself, has declared canonical. And many of those answers are hardly intermediate, least of "high" quality. Such is human nature, people never write a canonical answer to an ad-hoc question. Instead, they always cater to the OP to the minute detail. Not to mention those crazy races, when a question gets half a dozen answers in 5 minutes. Which might be good for ad-hoc questions, but is a huge disservice when it comes to canonical answers.

All too often, instead of a "detailed high-quality answer", a user coming from a search is faced with multiple similar questions, each crowded with a motley lot of different attempts to answer it. Which makes finding a good answer more of a challenge:

  • First, each question is asked dozens of times.
  • Second, each of them gets dozens of answers.
  • Third, nobody cares whether those answers are up to date, feature a good practice or outright make any sense. And no, voting does not help. Following the herd conscience, people tend to upvote already popular answers. For example, in the question above, the modern way of doing things, using the Fetch API, is only mentioned way down at the bottom, being awarded one single upvote in a year. How many people will make it to that answer? How many people will have enough expertise to understand that this is the recommended method nowadays?
  • Finally, many false positive results, when one lands on a question with a misleading title.

Yes, a relatively small number of the most popular questions gradually get something that can be called an acceptable answer, or even a high-quality one. The problem is that it's rather against the rules. Or at least never encouraged by the current regulations. Which:

  • encourage selfish and competitive attitude
  • reward you only for adding more new answers but never for improving an existing one
  • defend a selfish author who doesn't want their answer to be improved.
  • doesn't distinguish between ad-hoc questions and canonical ones. Quite too often, when you land on a question with a canonical title, all you see is some shortcut or a questionable tradeoff. Just a few examples: Cannot delete or update a parent row and mysql error 1364 Field doesn't have a default values are fairly common SQL errors that deserve a thorough explanation. But both topmost answers are anything but. Yes, for the particular ad-hoc question they may offer a plausible tradeoff. But after picking up some wind, a question automatically becomes a canonical post on the topic, where people come with different problems indicated by the same error message. And such a narrow-minded answer instantly becomes a disservice.

A recent case made it clear: the internal stance of Stack Overflow is diametrically opposed to what programmers expect from it. A volunteer, Jan Schultke, who made a habit of "regularly modernizing C++ questions and answers by adding notes or changes based on more recent versions", had been reproached for it. And decided to ask a question on Meta, When do modernization edits conflict with the author's intent?, which, to me, boils down to a more generic "Whether old but popular answers should be updated or left as is?". And active users of Stack Overflow voted for the latter: on the next day the question had -10 and a sole answer suggesting to leave old answers alone had about +20. But after I posted the link on Reddit, the question changed its score to positive and got quite a reasonable answer supporting the modernization of old answers, while the comments on Reddit agreed on "that's what I would hope to see on SO".

And it makes sense. Remember that library of high quality answers. Nowhere on the tour page does it say "a memorial to old practices". Stack Overflow needs to change its stance on this as well.

I strongly believe that such a library should provide the current generic approach by default, while optionally listing legacy and bleeding edge solutions. And in this regard, I believe that a canonical answer must be specifically made, by means of editing the initial ad-hoc reply, while targeting an "average Joe" as its reader, not the original poster. And the creation of such answers must be based on a collaborative, not competitive effort.

Any question that survives the "community value" screen, has to be heavily edited:

  • The title must be made to reflect the exact problem
  • All insignificant details must be edited out
  • The answer should address the generic question rather than dwell on irrelevant issues
  • The best practice should be provided first, while all shortcuts and tradeoffs mentioned later, with their drawbacks well explained
  • The most important part: canonical answers must be regularly maintained and updated, to stay current

And of course, people should be rewarded with those Internet points for all that effort. Or even something more substantial, this "buy me a coffee" stuff is not that hard to implement.

Separating the achievement of two goals

As you can see, Stack Overflow currently puts the burden of creating reference questions for the Library on the people who ask. "Either make your question canonical or go away". But that will never work. That task should be carried on by the community, by people of experience, not by people who ask questions.

And for the best results, achievement of these goals is better to be physically separated. Ad-hoc questions could be answered in a forum-like mode, a dialog that allows both parties to add code or images, to answer each other's questions. While Stack Overflow prides itself on not being a forum, there is nothing to brag about. Many questions simply cannot be answered without a discussion. Why not make it comfortable for all parties?

At the same time, canonical answers are best to be made more like Wikipedia articles, with a separate "Discussion" tab, and are written specifically, including a correct title, a generic question and a canonical answer, that provides the practice first and any shortcuts (if any) later, with drawbacks well explained.

Such a separation will solve many problems at once:

  • Canonical answers won't be distracted by irrelevant details or noise (which was the original goal when Stack Overflow called itself "not a forum")
  • Ad-hoc questions will be answered in a truly non-judgmental, friendly, and comfortable environment.
  • New contributors will earn as much reputation as they want

And Stack Overflow will indeed become that "Library of detailed, high-quality answers to every question about programming" it aspires to be.


I strongly believe that the idea is viable and it can prevent the decline of Stack Overflow. But I'm sure I've missed many important issues, because it's hard to consider all edge cases from just one point of view. That's why I am posting here on the Meta site of Stack Overflow: I am looking for feedback. Please share your thoughts and criticism. The only outcome I refuse to accept in advance is to leave everything as is. Simply because it's a road to decline. And in this case someone else will inevitably create another Q&A site, where anyone can ask a programming question without being reproached for having a problem of not as much importance.

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    "No voting down on questions" why limit it to just down? I'm not saying I disagree with what you suggest, but if you want to get rid of th down votes the getting rid of the upvotes on the question seems to make logical sense to me there.
    – Thom A
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 12:41
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    "The fall of Stack Oveflow" <citation needed>... That's just BS perpetuated by disgruntled users that want quick and easy answers to their lack of research.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 12:48
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    @Cerbrus whad to you mean, "needed"? I just checked the link, The Fall of Stack Overflow, it's still there. Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 12:52
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    @Lino the discussion tag is still relevant though. I must admit I never really thought about getting rid of downvotes on questions specifically so never really gave it thought how that would impact things. But IMO this is all pretty reactive. The source problem in my opinion is that the whole way the site explains itself is anchored in the internet user of the early naughties. Outdated by far. The first thing a person signing up should see is "This is not Reddit or Facebook, here is how Stack Overflow differs and why and what you can expect to happen if you fail to acknowledge that fact."
    – Gimby
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 13:03
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    What I don't quite understand here: you essentially want to temporarily allow a question so that it can be answered and then later on it will be deleted (by whom?). Also: who will be answering these questions? I don't think that you can motivate a lot of people to essentially turn into a free labour force. Already today, a lot of open questions have no answers, and these seem to be better questions than the ones you intend to allow in the future.
    – Lino
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 13:05
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    Your suggestions actually offer no benefits at all to what you call the "Noble" goal, and would severely harm it. The company cares intensely about traffic, the volunteers who run the site do not. Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 13:08
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    @YourCommonSense There's not enough people answering already. And now you want even fewer questions to get closer, requiring more answers!
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 13:28
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    The entire point of this suggestion is to inhibit/delay closure... How does that not increase the load on answerers?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 13:36
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    The suggested changes might increase the traffic on SO, but it would require more people answering while decreasing the question quality at the same time. Why would I as an answerer want that? I'm answering on SO because it quickly removes duplicates and other off-topic questions. If I would want to be a unpaid mentor for a single person, I'd go to reddit and Quora. I don't think that SO can survive if you drive away the people that currently do most of the work (reviews, edits, ...).
    – BDL
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 13:39
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    This is a big miss. The site is newbie/question friendly provided the asker follows some very basic guidelines. When I was a newbie all the way back in 2012, it wasn't hard at all to find those guidelines and put them into practice. It's even easier now. Why should those of us who actually put effort into our own work also put in extra effort to accommodate those who won't put in minimal effort of their own? Do you want SO to become Quora?
    – vbnet3d
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:03
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    @YourCommonSense the only possible outcome of lowering the quality bar of input is raising the amount of janitorial effort proportionally, if you want to maintain the net quality of the end result. This means that the onus falls on users who actually care about the quality - users who already put in effort.
    – vbnet3d
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:06
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    We already have physically seperated areas for the knowledge repository, and ad-hoc questions. Its called stackoverflow vs reddit/quora/all the other forums. Yet everyone comes to stackoverflow. Whats going to stop people from ignoring this new separated space in the exact same way and continuing to focus on the knowledge repository? Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:39
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    It is an interesting idea. How would you motivate answerers if they know in all probability that whatever they write is likely to be deleted from the Internet within a few weeks (other than the "I just want help" crowd, which I assume is a very small minority)? Even if they keep their reputation points. Offering extra reputation points (or other kinds of recognition) if the question survives? Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 18:12
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    You do realize that as far as trolling goes, the home of Internet trolling is called Reddit, yeah? So if you post about SO on Reddit and then Reddit posts accuses SO of trolling, I fear that you've just been trolled. Reddit is not a credible source for anything - you shouldn't even mention it in a question seeking to be taken seriously. It is social media. I think there's plenty of discussions elsewhere (on Reddit no doubt) about how fruitful it is to seek deeper enlightenment from social media.
    – Lundin
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 9:44
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    Wow wow wow, never thought I'd see the same plea for "Don't get upset to newbies not able to search nor to give a reproducible exemple" usenet thread here. The fact is if there's no new question, then SO is the library it needs to be, in java as it was your exemple there's not been major changes (if any) about what a null pointer exception is and how to track it's root cause since java 5 (I think). So yes, old languages are doomed to have one or two question on highly specific things per month by design.
    – Tensibai
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 12:52

12 Answers 12

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I will reply to some of the points you made, not the entire proposal.

Downvotes on questions

If you want to remove downvotes, you must also remove upvotes. But voting on questions isn't useless. Votes tell others (including search engines) whether this question is worth reading. Some questions have good but misleading titles. Votes should be used to determine that. Too narrow questions can also receive downvotes, hiding them from the wider public.

More importantly, votes let the system know what the public thinks of it. It has two effects:

  • A negatively scoring question will be automatically removed if closed and is eligible for quick deletion via votes.

  • A negatively scoring question counts against the user in regard to question bans. A user asking useless questions should be stopped from wasting everyone's time.

Flagging as "has no value"

We already have that, and it's precisely what you are complaining about that doesn't work. Questions can be downvoted, which indicates they have no value. Closed questions can be voted to be deleted. This system kind of works because we have millions of deleted questions, but it's not perfect. Why? Because we still get too many questions. People do not downvote enough and do not vote to delete old useless closed questions.

Replacing the current system with another one that will suffer from the exact same problem is not a solution.

Declining traffic

This was expected from the start. After all, there is only so much information one can add into the library. At some point new questions will be mostly garbage or duplicates.

The design of Stack Overflow implies the following flow:

  1. A programmer runs into an issue.

  2. They search the internet for a solution and can't find one.

  3. They ask a new question on Stack Overflow

  4. Someone (or themselves if they found an answer) provides a solution.

  5. Others can add alternative solutions.

  6. If a newer solution becomes available in future, it can be added as a new answer.

  7. Developers who run into the same issue find this question during step 2 and upvote instead of asking a new one.

It was never the intention to allow users to keep asking the same question over and over. Stack Overflow did fail in informing users about it.

The result is that we have most of the topics already covered. Any new questions asked are either extremely low-quality pleas for personal assistance or duplicates of existing questions. Traffic on Stack Overflow decreases because people who search for the solutions online, find it quickly, which results in fewer new questions that can be answered. Fewer answerable questions means fewer answers. Traffic is dropping to the levels that more accurately show the search-results traffic.

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    In fact, I would argue that Stack Overflow does not suffer from too few questions being asked, but too many questions being asked. Duplicate galore, lack of canonicals, etc... It's not an influx of askers that SO needs, it's an influx of editors tackling the unrewarding job of weaving order from chaos. Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 16:20
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    In regards to declining traffic I think you're misreading the data. Most of the frameworks and tools that have popped up in the last 3-5 years that I've seen actively avoid StackOverflow but have big communities in other places (as much as I hate it, Discord of all places). Stack Overflow would benefit from hosting Q&As for a lot of these communities, if it weren't so renowned for its gatekeeping.
    – SirDorius
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 17:03
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    "If you want to remove downvotes, you must also remove upvotes." You have not supported this statement in any way, probably because it's obviously incorrect. Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 21:18
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    @JohnHaggerty probably because it's been "supported" so many times already that they felt it was a given. Unfortunately, most posts that this gets discussed on end up self deleted by the question author, or the questions they're on are so poorly scored that they're hard to find.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 21:23
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    This is the same fallacy as you have on votes on Reddit where it says it should be "upvote high-quality answers" where in reality it's an "agree/disagree" button. Votes do NOT tell you if it's a question worth reading, it tells you roughly how many people had the same problem. Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 23:58
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    "Votes tell others (including search engines) whether this question is worth reading." - I see zero evidence that external search cares about question scores, nor has any mechanism for doing so, nor would see any reason for doing so. There have been many times I got negatively-scored questions mixed in with canonicals in the top page of search results. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 6:31
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    "A negatively scoring question will be automatically removed if closed" - no, it is far more complex than that. The closure needs to be very fast; a single answer at +1 keeps questions alive indefinitely, no matter how poorly they score, no matter the closure reason. If the question survives the "abandoned closed" check, any answer will then keep the question alive indefinitely unless explicitly voted on for deletion (or migrated). Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 6:36
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    "A negatively scoring question counts against the user in regard to question bans. A user asking useless questions should be stopped from wasting everyone's time." - Sure, but this system appears to be deeply flawed. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 6:37
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    @TanakaSaito Good point. This is a fundamental social problem endemic to user-generated content across the Internet. It is basically impossible to get most people to use a content-rating system in an even slightly outward-facing way; they will rate according to their personal preference and experience, no matter what. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 6:41
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    "When is the last time you programmed without any frameworks and tools?" Unless you count the standard library, most of my programming fits that description. And no, I am certainly not a beginner (just check some of my answers). Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 7:25
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    @Egon If you require that level of granularity for supplying feedback, it makes supplying feedback difficult, so people will stop providing feedback, and the site will die. Again, this is well-trodden ground.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 10:25
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    @Paul how is a thumbs down different from a downvote?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 14, 2023 at 9:26
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    @Paul, are you aware of the downsides of providing feedback instead of / next to downvotes? We need a way to signal bad content, and downvotes are, IMO, the most productive way to do so.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 14, 2023 at 9:39
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    @Cerbrus: Yes - I do appreciate that. Dharman, above, points out that the OP's ideas don't work, but obviously, if new users are simply being frightened away by a harsh voting system, then something IS wrong... We have privileges in place. Why can't new users, up to 100 rep, be prevented from losing rep from downvotes?
    – user1945782
    Commented Sep 14, 2023 at 9:50
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    @Paul That's interesting. I'd suggest the safety floor being somewhere between 25 and 99, looking at the privileges list. The two drawbacks I see are: Are DVs taken poorly irrespective of rep loss? A single decent question is enough to blow past the floor in a single day. When someone gets 100 rep in their first hour on the site, how does they feel about DVs weeks later when they ask a crummy second question? (I'm happy to move this to an answer on feature request if/when) Commented Sep 14, 2023 at 17:19
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You fundamentally don't understand (or perhaps, as Gimby pointed out, refuse to accept) what Stack Overflow is intended to be. For you to claim that you can prevent its fall is therefore ludicrous and, to be completely honest, incredibly offensive to those of us who do understand it.

Your post contains absolutely nothing that hasn't been suggested, complained about, and debated on Meta dozens of times before. I repeat, you have offered nothing new - while managing to use hundreds of words to do so, which is politician-level stuff right there.

On top of that, you have the temerity to post this to /r/programming, a subreddit where every and all "discussion" about Stack Overflow inevitably results in nothing more than thousands of comments by folks complaining that their questions were closed by "moderators" for allegedly arbitrary reasons (thus said folks very obviously don't understand how SO works either). Which means the overwhelming traffic to this question will be from people who have an incentive to agree with you, and thus upvote this question. In effect, you've artificially inflated its score in order to create the impression of support for your lack of new ideas - that's politician-level dishonesty right there.

A Q&A site has to be open for everyone.

Stack Overflow is, always has been, and always will be open for everyone - everyone who follows its rules. The problem is that the vast majority of new users have little interest in doing so. And unsurprisingly, we the curators have little interest in helping those who choose not to learn or respect said rules. That's not unwelcoming, that's basic human psychology regarding reciprocity.

I have never had a single problem with how Stack Overflow operates; I have never had a question closed for a reason I believe is unfair, or an answer deleted, or anything of the sort. And that's simply because I understand how it's intended to operate, and adhere to those rules of operation. A little bit of education goes a long way.

Now, if you were to argue that educating users on how SO operates is currently something the site does poorly, CONGRATULATIONS! You've once again discovered something that the site's curators have been concerned about for years.

Most of the questions currently asked on Stack Overflow are off topic. And that means something has gone very wrong.

Agree. It means that most of those questions don't conform with the rules of Stack Overflow, and are being closed/deleted as a result. In other words, curation is working exactly as intended.

Agree, but for different reasons. What has gone wrong here is that the people asking those "questions" aren't following the site's rules for asking questions. The fact that their sub-par questions are being closed and deleted as a result is a feature, not a bug. Every society functions on rules, and the fundamental ones imposed by SO since its founding have stood the test of time. There's no aversion to changing them, but there is aversion to changing them simply because you, or others, believe they're wrong. Bring evidence (no, blogs from people smack-talking SO just to get clicks is not evidence, sorry) and we can talk.

... asking a good question is a skill in itself. And even for a professional, it takes considerable effort.

Agree. If you have any feasible suggestions for teaching that skill within the constraints of a website, we'd honestly love to hear it. Because - again - we've tried about everything we've thought of to teach that skill within said constraints.

Disagree. If you're really a professional, asking good questions is second nature to you. Because you're aiming them at other professionals, who like you have limited time in their day, and thus aren't going to spend that time trying to dredge pearls from the sand of an incomprehensible question. They're instead going to focus in on the questions written in a way that are easy (not necessarily quick) to understand, replicate, and thus answer. Again, reciprocity.

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    There is a difference between not understanding and not accepting. This is pretty much yet another example of wanting Stack Overflow to be more like Reddit. Which I don't understand. Just use Reddit. We don't need two of them, Reddit already allows the creation of subreddits :/
    – Gimby
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 9:07
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    @Gimby - Indeed reddit does allow the creation of such low effort sub-reddits. And as a long time lurker on reddit, I can tell you they repeatedly become a cesspool one has to wade through to find anything useful, then they are just as quickly abandoned and pruned due to lack of activity. Wanting SO to be more like reddit is incredibly asinine. It's like migrants who flee a terrible situation in their home country that then demand a change to the law in their new country which is meant to make the better place more like the terrible place. Just plain... ugh. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 11:11
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    "If you're really a professional, asking good questions is second nature to you. Because you're aiming them at other professionals, who like you have limited time in their day, and thus aren't going to spend that time trying to dredge pearls from the sand of an incomprehensible question." Hrm... well... Having spent ridiculous amounts of time over the years on communication between private companies in the so-called professional setting, mainly e-mails, some 50% of all things you get sort under "wtf are they saying", often due to sloppily written e-mails lacking details or explanations.
    – Lundin
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 11:47
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    @Lundin And I'd argue that if you can't communicate effectively with your nominal peers, you are not their peer.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 14:56
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    @Lundin not all "professionals" are.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 14:58
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    @IanKemp Quite often they are customers, so they have an exalted status and calling out their lack of communication skills becomes sensitive. But even if you look at your co-workers, there's always a few oddballs and anti-socials (particularly among programmers). And in addition a few who might not have your language as their first language. Or another common case: someone who is real easy to work/communicate with face to face - then you ask them to send a technical question to some tech support and when you read it, you realize they have the verbal skills of a 10 year old. And so on.
    – Lundin
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 15:12
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    @Lundin Indeed. In university I had a technical writing course. I was absolutely appalled by some of the written output of my peers. It was if people I was used to having conversations with on a daily basis, suddenly revealed themselves as not actually knowing English at all and having somehow faked all the face-to-face discussion. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 19:33
  • 12
    As much as I agree with the points raised in this answer, the general tone comes across to me as continuing some kind of personal vendetta, and it doesn't seem to properly recognize the differences between this proposal and the ones we usually get. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 19:35
  • You fundamentally don't understand (or perhaps, as Gimby pointed out, refuse to accept) what Stack Overflow is intended to be. And right off the bat we have phrasing that is indicative of what the OP was talking about. Look in the mirror the next time you say "You fundamentally don't understand".
    – alife
    Commented Nov 14 at 18:17
42

I want to respond to these bullet points you're suggesting:

I strongly believe that the following changes must be implemented:

  • No voting down on questions. It serves absolutely no purpose other than to harass the OP and as a flag for the future auto-deletion. Optionally, there could be some canned responses that explain how the question could be improved, which is much better than a downvote

This has been suggested so many times already.

Votes are a quality control mechanism. Downvotes enable deletion on especially egregious questions. Downvotes signal bad quality.

They're extremely useful, and a critical part of how the SE network works.

  • Instead, there needs to be an option to flag a question as having no community value
  • Questions flagged as such, must simply be removed after being resolved (or after a reasonable timeout)

So they're of no value, yet we're keeping them here for... What reason?

  • The closure reasons listed above should just add such a flag, but don't close the question, letting anyone answer it.

You're basically suggesting we should just open the floodgates to any and all crap and not allow deletion of it until the OP is satisfied.

Damn no.

Quora can take those questions.

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    Why you're twisting my words? It's even clearly visible in your own post, "(or after a reasonable timeout)". Which can be even shorter than it needs for the current auto-delete? How it's "not allow deletion of it until the OP is satisfied"? Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 13:44
  • 1
    By your suggestion, can we delete a bad question ourselves, before that aritrary timeout expires? No. It can't be closed, it can't even be downvoted.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 13:46
  • 14
    I agree with OP on question downvotes (if on nothing else). Yes, this has been discussed before but, frankly, the majority opinion is simply wrong. Question downvotes (as opposed to answer downvotes) do not carry a useful signal. Close votes are sufficient, and downvotes are perceived as hostile, regardless of intent. — Personally I also sometimes itch to downvote an objectively bad question because it’s frankly rude and annoying. But closing it is a more constructive way of dealing with it. Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:08
  • 23
    Downvotes and closevotes do not serve the same purpose. Downvotes do help speed up deletion of questions. You may disagree with them, but that doesn't change how SO works, @KonradRudolph.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:13
  • 9
    @Cerbrus I know that they don’t serve the same purpose. I am asserting that downvotes on questions serve no useful purpose, and it is blindingly obvious that they are harmful. Helping speeding up deletion isn’t required. It happens anyway once the question is closed. And “how SO works” can be changed (and is constantly being changed), so that’s a complete non-argument. Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:15
  • 5
    I disagree that speeding up deletion is not (ever) useful. You're free to not use the mechanism, but that doesn't justify the removal of said mechanism. And seeing as how voting is one of the core mechanisms of SO... I don't see this changing any time soon.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:16
  • 10
    @Cerbrus If only there was a way of quantifying the usefulness. And, I will reiterate that downvotes are also incredibly harmful to SO’s reputation, and this needs to be balanced against any usefulness. In answers, this balance is clearly present. But in questions? I am no longer convinced. Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:18
  • 3
  • Speeding up deletion is helpful, but on new questions, the purpose of downvotes vs questions is not usefully different. Or rather: in basically every case, both sets of purposes have the same applicability, except that downvotes carry that added psychological impact. If a question is unclear, that's explicitly a reason to close it. If it's poorly researched, this should only matter if it impacts on clarity or focus (or makes it a duplicate). If it's "not useful" then that's directly claiming that the site shouldn't keep it. I've said it many times before and I'll keep saying it. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 19:42
  • @KarlKnechtel unfortunately, we no longer have a not useful close reason.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 19:44
  • We do have a close reason that's named a bit oddly, but does describe itself as "the problem was resolved in a way that is unlikely to help future visitors". I think that's pretty much a textbook explanation of what would make a Stack Overflow question "not useful". Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 20:28
39

TL;DR: the ideas that you propose seem amazing for a new site that learns from Stack Overflow's mistakes, and they sound a lot like what I have been preaching for Codidact. But I don't think they are feasible for Stack Overflow as it stands today. Even if we could snap our fingers and get everyone instantly on board with this new way of doing things, the existing questions would represent an enormous workload (and until properly processed, they would stick out like a sore thumb, and make it harder to recognize the good new work being done).

but it gets rather picky about what it's willing to answer: only "practical, detailed questions" that "have not been asked before" are welcome.

Well, not quite: while generally we don't want to accept answers on duplicates (questions that have been asked before), because that makes a mess, we're happy to receive a duplicate version of a question that helps people to find the original. Once the question has been recognized and closed as a duplicate, different standards come into play for deciding whether to delete the question, and for voting on it.

While for a user, a Q&A site is generally seen as a place to turn in times of need, regardless of the nature or magnitude of the problem. A place where they are a matter of some importance, not just a building material for a great library.

This is the fundamental mismatch, yes. No, I won't accept solutions that entail prioritizing "helping people in need" over building the library, because building the library is why the site exists. If we wanted to end up somewhere different, we needed to design for that explicitly, years ago (think 2011 at the latest).

There are countless other sites where that kind of "help desk" model is either already implemented, or easily can be. To justify including it here - even with the kind of cleanup process you describe - requires some reason why we add value vs. other sites. (Of course, it also requires raw answering resources; but I think we agree there is no shortage there.)

Only adding new answers will earn you a decent amount of Internet points, while updating an existing answer will bring you none.

Agreed. This is a network-wide issue and I have written about it at that level before.

But if you open a random popular question, it looks exactly like a forum thread, with dozens (if not hundreds) of replies, some of them even arguing with each other.

I hope you have also noticed that:

  1. The material for this question is actually pretty easy, and it's a reasonable question that a beginner needs to understand the answer to, even if a beginner could not be expected to phrase the question that way.

  2. The reason it's contentious is because it's trying to fit very old terminology onto a modern language that wasn't designed for it. (In the past, it was more or less taken for granted that the variable itself has value semantics, so the consequences of call-by-value and call-by-reference are much more readily apparent. Also in the past, doing call-by-reference by default was seriously considered as a reasonable design; nowadays, while variables may have reference semantics, practically everything is call-by-value and if call-by-reference is supported at all it must be explicitly requested.)

Most of the questions currently asked on Stack Overflow are off topic.

Well, no. Most of them are close-worthy, but we don't generally say that duplicates, questions that lack debugging details or are unfocused, etc. are "off topic". Sometimes people really do ask questions that aren't related to programming, and are straightforwardly outside the scope of Stack Overflow. But that isn't the most common reason for closing questions, not by a long shot.

since after all these years, 90% of new questions are inevitably duplicates, more or less.

This obviously isn't the problem, since it can't be avoided...

And we don't see all of them closed on the spot just because it takes a considerable effort to find the right duplicate

This is the problem. So it's hard to appreciate the desire to accommodate the search for a help desk - even a temporary one that gets cleaned up afterward.

The time spent on those questions is time that could be spent behind the scenes on real curation work:

  • Identifying patterns in what beginners tend to ask about

  • Obsessively looking for the best versions of those questions, and figuring out if they need to be asked fresh by an expert (in order to have an acceptable version of it)

  • Going through search results (both on-site and external) to look for bad results that come up, and clean up those questions (by linking them to a canonical, or by closing/deleting them if they are that bad and were overlooked before, or by fixing their titles so they don't come up in the wrong searches, or so they do come up in the right searches...)

  • Editing the target questions to meet current standards (fix grammar etc. even if nobody cared at the time; remove noise; organize the question to lay out the problem clearly; fix examples where appropriate, add cross-references etc.

  • Raising awareness of such canonicals after promoting them, using the chat rooms or off-site resources, so that others can help close duplicates

And yes, you will still need people to cast the proposed "no community value" flags. And as much as I generally agree that questions that aren't close-worthy or delete-worthy also shouldn't end up with downvotes, we really need that mechanism to help clean up old existing stuff. So simply trying to create a separate tier of questions is more work than you think.

Even after making it hard for newbies, the Library is still not that great.

Well, yes. It took years to "make it hard for newbies", then it took years more to make it hard in the right way, which involved a lot of bickering back and forth about how to treat people nicely and avoid PR disasters (and still have quality control). I have an entire catalog of saved questions on Meta that I bet you would find fascinating, and it's mostly related to this topic.

The thing is, fixing the library requires attention to the existing questions. Even if we stopped getting any new questions at all immediately, it would still be an enormous task. I can't emphasize this enough. Stack Overflow has about three times as many open questions, as Wikipedia has articles. And the scope for Stack Overflow is "things to do with writing code", while the scope for Wikipedia is "literally anything, as long as it's 'notable' and discussed in 'reliable sources'". If we accept that the goal is quality and organization, we can be certain that the quantity is way too high.

But after I posted the link on Reddit

Of course, this is a rather tight-knit community, and we would prefer not to have that kind of interference. (It's hard to get accurate numbers for a fair comparison; but we can safely say that it takes Reddit mere months to create an entire new Stack Overflow worth of volume.) And of course, people will be unhappy about this, because you also posted an answer for that question, so that looks like a clear conflict of interest.

But as you can probably see from my answer on the other Meta question, I think the Redditors were basically right this time.

When it comes to editing Stack Overflow, there is a case for progressivism, and I'm always happy to make it. There is also a case for conservatism, and I think Lundin makes it better than I can, but I do try to include it for fairness.

Any question that survives the "community value" screen, has to be heavily edited

I love the optimism here.

Many questions simply cannot be answered without a discussion.

A lot of the time, a discussion is needed in order to understand the exact parameters of the question. Some OPs, for example, appear willing to do the needed debugging/MRE-creating work, but they don't have the experience to know what kind of information is missing, while the others looking at the question don't have the setup needed to create that information.

Similarly, sometimes having a discussion with a beginner - in order to figure out why the beginner does not understand some simple concept - can be very helpful in figuring out good canonical questions. If an expert has this experience a few times, it can become clear that beginners commonly fall into the same wrong thought pattern - and that can become the basis for an artificially crafted canonical.

However, it is still not intended for Stack Exchange to function as any kind of tutoring platform. Those kinds of discussion really need full-featured comments and live updates, and they greatly benefit from the ability to thread comments. Site software like Reddit's is far more suitable for that.

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    I cannot thank you enough for providing the exact kind of feedback I was looking for. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 8:28
  • Re "still not intended for Stack Exchange to function as any kind of tutoring platform": The company has indicated it wants to do something on the learning front (even the current homework sites may not guarantee any learning. My emphasis): "The users: learners, from beginners to experts" and "Community. Learning, sharing, and growing together".". Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 15:32
  • cont' And at 23 min 38 secs: "Our outcomes are not just a library. But it is actually a community of people writing, consuming, curating, recommending, bringing in outside pieces of content". Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 15:32
  • "it also requires raw answering resources; but I think we agree there is no shortage there" There's no shortage of "resources" willing to cut+paste from either ChatGPT or their google search results, but there is a shortage of resources providing good answers.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 16:48
  • 2
    @PeterMortensen if you suppose that the whims of new owners overrule both the original owners and the community, sure. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 18:33
32

Reading further through this mess of a suggestion, there's one paragraph I must address. I decided to use a separate answer for this, as the point is completely unrelated to whether or not we should DV / close questions.

A recent case made it clear: the internal stance of Stack Overflow is diametrically opposed to what programmers expect from it. A volunteer, Jan Schultke, who made a habit of "regularly modernizing C++ questions and answers by adding notes or changes based on more recent versions", had been reproached for it. And decided to ask a question on Meta, When do modernization edits conflict with the author's intent?, which, to me, boils down to a more generic "Whether old but popular answers should be updated or left as is?". And active users of Stack Overflow voted for the latter: on the next day the question had -10 and a sole answer suggesting to leave old answers alone had about +20. But after I posted the link on Reddit, the question changed its score to positive and got quite a reasonable answer supporting the modernization of old answers, while the comments on Reddit agreed on "that's what I would hope to see on SO".

That OP is new to Meta. He's made multiple suggestions on here that are completely out of touch with the community consensus. He's also been rather argumentative with any and everyone that disagreed with him...

Being the author of the (currently highest scoring) answer you mentioned there, I was very surprised that the suggestion was inexplicably, out of nowhere, getting a lot of upvotes.

Now it makes sense. You dragged it into social media.

I should probably disclose that I wrote one of the answers there. Just wanted a look from the programming community outside the close clique of SO functionaries. (source)

You know, Reddit, not exactly the most neutral of social networks. There are a lot of discussions there that indicate the participants' frustrations are based on a misunderstanding of how SO works.

Of course they're gonna disagree with any and all curative efforts. They've got no stake in SO.

Frankly, I think it's very low that you'd use external social media to boost your own answer, artificially inflating the votes on it.

To me, that alone completely invalidates the point you're trying to make...


And after this answer was posted, this discussion was reposted to Reddit, by the OP...

Brigading like that is very much in conflict with internet etiquette.
It has resulted in harassment and skewed vote counts.
(Sure, we can't "know" the source of votes, but it's a pretty safe guess)

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    It's not a "boost" I didn't ask anyone to vote on the answer. And what is appalling here, is the amount of repulsion in your replies that you don't even try to hide. Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 13:24
  • 31
    You knew very well that an answer like that would get upvotes from Reddit crowd. Let's not pretend you didn't think of that. And about repulsion, how about your "clique of SO functionaries" comment on reddit?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 13:25
  • 38
    And yes, I freely admit that I think dragging SO matters to media like Reddit and Twitter is repulsive.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 13:27
  • 7
    The first point is an ad hominem, and the second one is some sort of reverse ad populum. I see why you decided to put this in a separate answer.
    – E_net4
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 13:47
  • 26
    @YourCommonSense What you are doing is commonly known as [incitement to] “brigading”, and it is immensely looked down upon in online discourse. Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:16
  • 8
    @KonradRudolph I simply don't consider this topic a private matter of Meta Stack Overflow. I could have posted it anywhere from Facebook to Medium, and then "brigaded" my own post all the same. That's calling sharing a link, not "brigading". I consciously decided to post it here. Only I didn't expect that much hatred. Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:24
  • 34
    @YourCommonSense it isn't about meta being "private" - it's about biasing the discussion by pulling in people who aren't generally active on meta and thus do not represent community consensus, haven't been around for previous discussion, & tend to already have an axe to grind. It's not conducive to good community discussion. It's unhelpful and you should stop doing it on your meta posts.
    – vbnet3d
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:27
  • 17
    @vbnet3d that's the problem. "people generally active on meta" consider themselves the only community that's allowed to decide what's right and what's wrong :) Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:33
  • 20
    @YourCommonSense You definitely have a point about the community (I stopped contributing on Meta long ago because I, along with many other former “super”users consider it toxic and unconstructive). But the other points in the comment you are replying to still stand. What you are doing is also not constructive. You’re just fanning flames. Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:34
  • 19
    @YourCommonSense Other points aside, I'm not sure that you understand that the purpose of meta is discussing and deciding on community guidelines. People who choose not to participate in that on a regular basis have the right to not do so. That doesn't mean you should pull them in to side with you on an ad hoc basis because you disagree with the communal consensus
    – vbnet3d
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:38
  • 12
    @vbnet3d first off, I don't need anyone "on my side". I just have no idea what to do with that side. It's a not a criminal case hearings. I don't have any means to "benefit" on any outcome. It's a discussion. I am looking for feedback, not "sides". Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 14:58
  • 10
    "Frankly, it's appalling that you'd use external social media to boost your own answer, artificially inflating the votes on it." if new users coming to the site and expressing their viewpoint is that destructive to the site, may be the view point on the site was wrong/toxic in the first place. And as far as I know boosting any post's popularity on social media was never disallowed (if I remember there was a bot that posted questions to twitter for visibility). Unless you're trying to imply OP paid to get his post more visible (which I highly doubt)
    – user13267
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 2:42
  • 14
    @user13267 "if new users coming to the site and expressing their viewpoint is that destructive to the site, may be the view point on the site was wrong/toxic in the first place." - well, no, here I have to disagree strongly. I may be "progressive" about editing, but "conservative" about Internet communities deciding their own norms and being protected from outside influences. Even Reddit itself has had to acknowledge this value, due to "brigading" between subreddits dedicated to opposed points of view. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 6:26
  • 14
    Again I'm not saying people are not allowed to participate. I'm saying OP has drawn in a very specific audience that has historically always been anti-SO. That's just foul play.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 7:26
  • 13
    I don't care what they think. I do care about the harassment I've gotten from users coming here from Reddit, and about the fact that doing so has skewed the voting on this question massively.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 8:35
28

Stack Overflow has already fallen. It fell a long, long time ago during the Summer of Love, if you want to put a finer timeline to it. Worse, with this post, whatever grave the site had left has been desecrated by people who just wanna use us as cheap labor chiming in saying, "yep, I agree, this is why I use ChatGPT."

The reason it fell is obvious in hindsight but may be difficult to interpret if you're still looking at it from specific lenses:

The company put way more emphasis on the new user experience and a lot less emphasis on improving how people can find answers to their questions.

People love to categorize the "problem" with Stack Overflow as one being that we're just not nice enough to people, when in reality we're actually really pleasant as long as you follow the rules. Don't tell me otherwise.

The actual problem is that people put way too much value on the people that come to the site to ask questions. Like, that's kinda blindingly obvious that people are going to do that. Does anything encourage them to stay? I would imagine not; the opportunity to rate content is meh at best, and the privilege and responsibility of editing posts is appealing to a niche, and the whole responsibility of content curation sounds more like it should be a full-time job with benefits rather than a part of some holistic "community building" pipe dream.

What do I come here for? An answer to my question. Do I care about anything else? No, not really, I've gotta get this project/homework assignment/thing done in X hours/days so I don't have a lot of bandwidth to listen to your spiel about this "great library" thing. Just answer my question already.

The other factor here is one I mentioned a while back. How do you find an answer to your question? Because the site search is so terrible at its job, and has been since time immemorial, people just use Google or Bing to do it, with poor to mixed results. This is why you tend to see a lot of duplicates.

The company is finally addressing this, but we have to have this whole "AI" cruft added on top of it. Well, at least it's moving along. I guess.

As for the declining traffic factor, I mentioned it a bit earlier. What's the point of sticking around if I have my question answered? The site hasn't done anything to really encourage that sort of thing, and the efforts are a bit tone-deaf or orthogonal to what it is that made some of us decide to hang out in the first place.


Honestly? I wish we had more motivated curators to help with the cruft, and I wish we had a few more people in positions higher up that actually valued us, but the site is still chugging along, even if it's a shell of itself. It could have been better than this, but that would mean actually listening to the community for a change.

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    @zcoop98: It's still all bundled into the same "new user experience" package, since new users tend to just...ask questions. So they try to improve that. But then you also have things like the Welcome Wagon, experimenting with an additional "like" button, increasing the rep gained from upvotes from 5 to 10...all so new users can "get a leg up". But then there's the solid few of us that bother to transcend that to see what else there is to this site, and discover curation. It's pretty well hidden, to be fair. Doesn't seem like there's a lot of energy spent on promoting it.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 14, 2023 at 2:16
  • 1
    I would more say that the beta version of Stack Overflow has fallen, a long time ago. The one where meta meant something and feature requests were actually looked at. What we have now is the release version where the company has taken the reigns and we're just along for the ride. And it is a pretty resilient version I must say. It has outgrown itself so much that it is impossible to effectively curate, yet it keeps on chugging along.
    – Gimby
    Commented Sep 14, 2023 at 14:42
  • 3
    "we're actually really pleasant as long as you follow the rules. Don't tell me otherwise." I will tell you otherwise. I'm usually on the side of "the meta folks" as opposed to the company or the general public, but in this case I disagree slightly. I think the disconnect comes from the fact that most people who follow the rules have a good experience, but there are some rule-following people who are affected by "unpleasant" high-rep users. Certainly not all the time, but I think it happens often enough to color the opinion of the general public. Commented Sep 14, 2023 at 21:38
  • 1
    @TheGuywithTheHat: So what made the interaction unpleasant? Did someone ask a question that was off-topic? Did the answerer leave a snarky comment?
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 14, 2023 at 21:42
  • 2
    @Makoto The complaints that people tend to have are (speaking very broadly): snarky/useless comments that misunderstand the questions, and incorrect question closure with little recourse (no actionable comments, and failure to get enough votes to reopen). Commented Sep 14, 2023 at 22:29
  • 1
    @TheGuywithTheHat I wish we could prevent the comments, but alas all we can do is flag them.
    – Gimby
    Commented Sep 15, 2023 at 8:03
  • 2
    @TheGuywithTheHat: Flag the snarky comments. No need to complain about that, You™ have the power to deal with that already. The other two things are hard to explicitly quantify as someone directly going out of their way to be unplesant; that's a side-effect of the platform in how it communicates question closure and also how to reverse it if a closure was done in error.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 15, 2023 at 14:26
  • 1
    @Michael My understanding is no, there's no comment ban for unconstructive comments, but you can certainly be suspended site-wide for a week for behavior in comments just like you can for behavior anywhere else on site.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 15, 2023 at 16:19
  • 1
    @Michael: I don't tend to frame this as a "encourage good behavior" kind of mentality when it comes to comments. Either you're making constructive comments or you're not, and the rules are unequivocal on the matter. You can be suspended site-wide for a period of time if one is not able to make constructive comments. Conversely, one can also be suspended site-wide for raising a lot of superfluous flags, too. So the comments really need to be out of line, not just something that someone could say was "mean" in a certain light.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 15, 2023 at 16:22
  • 1
    @Makoto To be clear, I'm talking from the perspective of low-rep users new to the site. Flagging a comment doesn't prevent the unpleasantness of reading a snarky comment in the first place (and also new users probably can't flag anything anyways). Aside from obviously-bad snarky comments, the general commenting of high-rep users on new users' posts can frequently be perceived as unpleasant, even if that's not what the asker intended. If a new user had their question closed with cold/blunt/canned comment(s), I would be surprised if they didn't find their experience/interactions unpleasant. Commented Sep 15, 2023 at 17:44
  • 3
    @TheGuywithTheHat: You're making my point. There is a tacit difference between perceived snarkiness and actual snarkiness. One of these things can be actioned without the need for a sob story or pleas for us to "be a little nicer". The other is a direct consequence of how many questions we have to answer and how technologists may not always be the best at communicating with others in empathetic tones. (Especially if this isn't their project, or they're not getting compensated for putting in the work.) It takes only 15 rep to flag a post, so on-lookers could flag too.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 15, 2023 at 17:53
  • 1
    Mandatory reading on "snarky" comments Comments asking for clarification or an MCVE are not rude/abusive Note: The post was written by a moderator because of large number of unjustified comment flags. This is what we are dealing with, people being too way sensitive about receiving any kind of valid criticism on one hand and on the other hand complaining that nobody gave them any kind of feedback.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Sep 15, 2023 at 19:58
  • 4
    Regarding "in reality we're actually really pleasant as long as you follow the rules." ehh, having seen the flag queues, that's not exactly true. Yes, most people are genuinely are very pleasant and helpful. But plenty of people come here with a perfectly reasonable, focused how-to question and get told this isn't a free coding service, and that they need to turn it into a debugging question (I'm paraphrasing the latter half; it is usually some form of demand to show effort). As a moderator, I've tried to address this and had (I think) some success trimming that particular trend back.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 16, 2023 at 0:21
  • 2
    Some of those "unnecessarily abrasive" people are very difficult to moderate, as they almost never do one specific thing that clearly crosses a line, but they are regularly toeing the line with snark or similar things. It's difficult to make the call as to when that has happened, and even more difficult to explain the issue to someone who's thinks they're contributing positively (a canned "you should be nicer" mod message is probably not going to be especially useful).
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 16, 2023 at 0:23
  • 2
    @RyanM +100 if I could. As much as I'm usually the voice of "close everything now and sort it out later", there is definitely a cohort that thinks every question is supposed to be a debugging question and thus tries to apply "needs debugging details" way too broadly. Which honestly is awful for site quality; "no question should be a debugging question" is also wrong (according to how people who aren't me understand the term "debugging question"), but it's much closer to the truth. The interesting, useful question is what remains after "finding" the bug. Commented Sep 17, 2023 at 1:07
23

I think this is a thoughtful and well-written post.

First, let me summarize the main points as I understand them:

  1. Stack Overflow is unfriendly to new users.

  2. Too many new questions are bad, per current standards.

  3. The burden of asking good questions is on those least able to.

  4. There is some benefit, for questioner and answerer, in allowing duplicates to be re-asked and re-answered, so long as they are then cleaned up somehow.

  5. The current system tends to incentivize "sniping" with quick answers, possibly at the expense of the quality of those answers.

  6. There is no reward for improving questions or answers, and the latter can degrade as technology changes.

  7. Routine Q&A could be separated from high-quality "canonical" Q&A.

Points 1 and 2 resonate most with me, but it's difficult to make progress on one without harming the other. Downvotes do sting, and are discouraging, but they also seem important to promoting quality. My guess is removing them would make #2 significantly worse while not making #1 much better. But I think there might be other ideas that could work. In particular, the current question-asking form is a literal blank slate, when a lot of people could benefit from a more structured approach. (Update: I'm pleased to be informed that there's now an Ask Wizard for new askers. That seems like a good first step.)

Points 3 and 6 are strong. One of SO's rules is to avoid making edits that change the author's intent. Community wiki avoids that but no one earns rep for it. Perhaps the latter could be reconsidered.

I mostly disagree with point 4. Rewards for identifying duplicates might be a better approach.

Point 5 is valid, but even as someone who typically spends 1-2 hours on every answer I write, I see it as a minor issue, and the competitive aspects do promote engagement.

On point 7, the available mechanisms seem sufficient, or at least I'm not seeing a specific proposal here that would clearly improve the existing process for creating canonical Q&As. Rather, I see the main issue being that new users aren't finding the canonicals often enough before posting their question, which in turn has several causes.

7
  • 10
    I'm not entirely in agreement with your analysis, but your summary of points is worth an upvote by itself. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 7:26
  • 4
    FYI: For first-time askers there's an ask-a-question-wizard that'll guide them trough the process of asking a question. So they're not entirely served a blank form.
    – Lino
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 8:04
  • 9
    "Stack Overflow is unfriendly to new users." - indeed. Which is one of those things where I tend to start to twitch when people yet again go down that road, it is a result of tunnel vision. Stack Overflow is pretty standoffish towards everyone. By design, no exceptions. Content over people. People with a low reputation count are affected more, the reputation count is not tied to how new someone is to the site.
    – Gimby
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 12:45
  • 3
    Point 6 is incredibly weak. Yet again someone wants Stack Overflow to be wikipedia, but it isn't and shouldn't be. You can (and people almost always do) write a new answer with new information as old answers become obsolete. It works. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 21:13
  • 1
    @PresidentJamesK.Polk There has got to be a good solution somewhere in the middle then... because while I understand where you're coming from, having, let's say, 10-20+ incredibly high quality answers on a single question is a slog to go through, and that's where we end up if everyone always writes a new answer when there's anything new to add; and it only gets worse with age. Information being splintered and segregated across many answers is inherently less useful than it being more centralized. We aren't Wikipedia, but scrolling tens of answers is no better than a traditional forum model.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 22:31
  • 2
    You can also leave a comment for the original answerer, often they'll update the answer with the new information. All I can say is that in my experience as a consumer of Stack Overflow content, I don't mind scrolling through old and highly regarded answers to get to newer ones. It's not really a huge effort and I always learn something along the way. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 22:36
  • 2
    @PresidentJamesK.Polk The "trending" sort is decent, especially when a new answer gets a little momentum. Commented Sep 14, 2023 at 16:46
23

The biggest problem here is the fact that Stack Overflow is pro-askers, not pro-answerers. Asking questions is free and zero-effort. People who ask don't respect our time completely, and they are even too lazy to properly format the post or describe the issue.

To create an account here you don’t even need to confirm your e-mail address, so we are ending up with thousands of thousands of accounts with only one question asked and abandoned forever.

If we will simplify the process of asking even further, we will end up with even bigger mess than it is right now.

Asking questions should not be zero-effort!

8
  • 5
    What's the point in being able to ask, if your question is gonna be closed in seconds? SO is anything but pro-askers. And although it's an open question whether it should be, where SO really fails tremendously, is being pro-pro-answers. While catering to wannabe answerers who can be attracted by intenet points, SO fails to lure real professionals, who could give a hand in improving canonical answers. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 14:25
  • 14
    "if your question is gonna be closed in seconds?" Then you didn't write a decent question. "SO fails to lure real professionals" Are you seriously arguing nobody is maintaining canonicals?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 14:26
  • 6
    @YourCommonSense There are many "real professionals, who could give a hand in improving canonical answers" here already. You can regularly find some of them lamenting on meta how the number of low-effort Q&A makes it very hard to give a hand in improving canonical questions and answers... Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 14:28
  • 3
    "To create an account here you don't even need to confirm your e-mail address" Stack Overflow has required a registered account to ask questions since 2011, which involves clicking on a link sent to your email. (Some other sites still allow unregistered accounts to create questions, however.)
    – Laurel
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 14:43
  • 2
    "The biggest problem here is the fact that Stack Overflow is pro-askers, not pro-answerers." Yep, exactly what I've always been saying since I joined 'SO'.... (First time I see sbd corroborating my stance...) Everything on the Site is about "Ask-Ask-Ask...!", "Not the Answer you are looking for? => Ask-Ask-Ask...!"
    – chivracq
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 22:24
  • 3
    The UI is certainly pro-asking, big shiny ask question button front and center, shitty search feature (well... shitty for finding answers to questions). That button has a long list of rules and guidelines attached to it of course which makes it more of a site which is pro-informed-asking, but yeah... who reads nowadays.
    – Gimby
    Commented Sep 14, 2023 at 14:30
  • 3
    "To create an account here you dont even need to confirm your e-mail address" That's not true, at least not if you want to ask a question. Unregistered users can post answers, but not questions.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 15, 2023 at 21:37
  • Asking questions should not be zero-effort! Most of you have forgotten entirely that part of gaining competence in any discipline is in learning how to ask the questions in the first place. I've seen people ask vague questions and get blasted. And then when other people ask large questions of a complex nature, they get a knee-jerk closure for things not being clear. That's simply absurd. Sometimes vague is the best they can do and they need guidance at that stage for closing in properly. Somethings complex is merely complex and not unclear.
    – alife
    Commented Nov 14 at 18:25
22

First and foremost, my stance has always been that to improve the experience for askers who don't know site guidelines and rules (and as a result, the experience for those who volunteer their time to help those people), the site's UI needs to be highly intentional and proactive about promoting Help Center pages in relevant locations. Yes, many people will still be too lazy to read, but there's clearly still room for improvement with respect to pointing people to relevant Help Center pages before they violate guidelines or rules in those pages.

Dharman's already said this, but just to repeat, we have the roomba. Questions with no answers and negative score eventually get auto-deleted. On the point of downvotes stinging, I can sympathize. But over time, it's stopped bothering me. If your contributions are useful and on-topic, then you'll come out on top of it. And also, downvotes are a curation mechanism for a big city.

You talk about answering questions that should be closed, but many of the close-reasons are for questions that literally cannot be answered without more information. Others just hold no long-term value (like problems caused by typos) and those can be pointed out in comments and closed and swept up by the Roomba.

If duplication is a problem like you say (and it is), then a technical solution should be sought. Ex. Better search, better related question recommendations, better possible duplicate suggestions and related UI in the Ask Question page. Incentives can also be looked at (rep and badges have been proposed several times).

As for heavily curating questions that are "deemed worthy", literally anyone can already do that. If a question includes a bunch of stuff that isn't necessary to be focused enough and answerable, you can just edit to remove that stuff. If it would be too disruptive to make such an edit and the question is fresh and new with no answers, you can just write a better Q&A pair and vote the other to be closed as a duplicate of it (if it really would be a duplicate). If you're proposing that such curation for each Q&A be collaborative, I don't think that scales.

See also my answer to "What are some deferred, ignored, or sunset projects we wish SE would work on to facilitate the community?" (TL;DR the New User Onboarding Project, and Staging Ground).

15

I don't agree with The Problem:

Most of the questions currently asked on Stack Overflow are off topic.

This could be backed by a query from the Stack Exchange Data Explorer but, in my experience this is very far off from true. At that, the questions that are closed as off-topic I almost unilaterally agree should be closed as off-topic, because they simply are off topic.

Right now I am looking at the list of new questions under the [Java] tag. Many of them are either already closed, or in the process of being closed, with one or two votes.

We can't do a site-wide fundamental change based on looking at a few questions. Go on the data explorer and look for the percentage of closed questions. Limit your search to a month ago, or to last year, to ensure that most questions that will be closed, have been closed. Because when I go look at the Java tag, I see that most questions are open, and the ones that are closed I think are closed for a good reason.

Though just the first one is enough, since after all these years, 90% of new questions are inevitably duplicates, more or less.

There's no need to speculate. I think this number is much, much lower.

But, jokes aside, there is a real problem: this list outlaws most newbie questions out there.

The list outlaws poor questions. As a common answerer in the Python tag, people generally provide hints and help in the comments even if they do close something as a duplicate. Having your question closed isn't necessarily a bad thing. If your question is closed as duplicate, it links you to the correct answer! Your problem is solved!

So it's no wonder that too many people are starting to see Stack Overflow as a hostile place, which has even become a meme.

I have seen users with high reputation being rude in comments to newcomers. That is a problem. But loading this website up with thousands of junk questions a day because people dislike the word duplicate doesn't sound productive.

I apologize, but I just can't get past this section of the post. We have the data available, and it's something that was fought for in the recent strike in fact. If you can back your question up with statistics and queries it would be much easier to motivate. The numbers you provide just sound like gross overestimates to me.

5
  • 1
    But nowhere does it say "loading this website up with thousands of junk questions". On the contrary, I suggest to delete them :) Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 3:59
  • 1
    @YourCommonSense Delete them? I have frequently seen people answer such questions, or comment on such questions. That adds a tremendous amount of value even if the question ends up being closed. There is a procedure for deleting questions, and there is one for closing them. The questions that you seem to discuss in this post (at least outlined in the problem) are ones that should be closed and not deleted. Deleting them would be objectively harmful to the site, and would discourage anyone from answering or commenting as their work may be deleted.
    – Kraigolas
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 4:48
  • See, your ideas are 100% correct. You only need to slightly adjust them with reality :) You may start from reading my post, it's well explained there, though a bit lengthy, I have to admit. First, such questions are already get deleted now. Second, if you add some important detail in a comment to an obscure question with 20 views it's surely helpful, but not that tremendous. However, if, based on that discussion in the comments, you would update a reference question, the effect indeed could be called that. That's what I suggest Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 5:10
  • 16
    "There's no need to speculate. I think this number is much, much lower." Far fewer than 90% of questions are marked as duplicates, sure. But IMO we're doing a quite poor job of identifying duplicates, and aside from that there are tons of questions that would be duplicates if they were fixed up, but are too low quality to even recognize as the duplicates that they are. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 7:10
  • 3
    here's your SEDE query (including deleted questions). closed: 4,268,269. not closed: 30,593,906. I didn't do anything to account for pending close votes.
    – starball
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 18:13
-17

There are a lot of things in the question I could comment on, but the Library with capital L sticks out.

We know that any site which claims to have an ambition to be such a Library must have a clear quality criteria. For those who would use Internet as a source back in the 1990s, you might remember that if you quoted something from Wikipedia, you would just get laughed at. It wasn't a credible source, it lacked moderation and expertise, it was overall questionable at best. Like the Internet as whole back then, it was mostly maintained by computer nerds.

But as soon as Internet became more mainstream around year 2000 and common people started to use it, Wikipedia quickly stepped up their game and is nowadays one of the most credible online sources, a serious competitor to traditional encyclopaedias. This was made possible by:

  • Careful peer review of language and content. Often by actual domain experts.
  • Demanding sources for everything claimed.
  • Searchable site with categorization of articles and topics easily browsed.
  • No clutter, ads or other nonsense.

SO cannot be some Library, because the site was not designed for that purpose. Rather, it was explicitly designed to help programmers with the every day technical problems they are facing. To quote Joel Spolsky upon launch:

Every question in Stack Overflow is like the Wikipedia article for some extremely narrow, specific programming question.

(Except it actually isn't; the vast majority of questions on SO is not anywhere close to that.)

Then much later down the line some "meta people" minted the ambition of SO to provide a library of knowledge and it became a popular notion, to the point where it apparently even made it all the way into the newbie tour.

Some of the problems when attempting to be some Library:

  • The artificial Q&A format makes it hard to post actual canonical, high-quality content. It makes it hard to search. It distracts from the actual topic.

    Q&A is a great format for personal use: one person has a localized, specific problem and seeks help with solving it from technical experts. But canonical/great article, etc. is the opposite of that. They cannot be localized, but must address multiple use cases, so that the reader can recognize that their specific situation is a flavour of what the "canonical" is about when they encounter it themselves.

  • Peer review by actual experts happens, but it often leads to arguing and conflicts. The rep system is one reason for that; people post an answer for the purpose of posting their answer, not the answer. It's not ten experts gathering together to post the ultimate answer; it's a few experts (and a lot of students) writing different answers in parallel. Again, both the Q&A format and the reputation system are found unsuitable and counter-productive for producing "canonical" content.

  • We do have "community wiki", but few use it because of the reputation system. By site design, the ambition of the user base isn't to produce a Library but to gain rep, or otherwise every post would be a community wiki.

  • Posting sources becomes problematic because the site by design demands that posts add value to this site. Thus someone wildly speculating in a long answer based on their personal beliefs is rewarded over the one who read a book/article about the topic from an expert and just briefly refers to it.

  • The tag system is completely dysfunctional when it comes to categorization, searching and sorting. It is too blunt, too poorly moderated (anyone and their mother can create a tag), doesn't support ways to build category trees with sub-topics, etc., etc. And very few moderate or write content for the tag wikis.

  • Anyone can post about anything. No expertise or skills are required. You don't need to know spelling, you don't need to know programming, and you don't need to know the basics of human-to-human interaction. Whereas a credible encyclopaedia will be very careful regarding who they allow to write articles. Anyone who remember the "Documentation Project" can tell why.

  • The "social media feed" design isn't helpful for anything else but spewing endless floods of random content. It is impossible to find anything specific quickly and good posts that might have helped towards the "Library" ambition drown in the flood of crap. Even good posts that did receive lots of attention with good answers at the time posted, also drown—there isn't any obvious way for people interested in that specific topic to find it. At best, you land on the page from Google.

  • As addressed in your question, posts do age, but they cannot be updated because this isn't Wikipedia and every answerer "owns" their own content, to some extent. It is not owned by SO or "the community"—SO just holds the rights to publish it indefinitely.

So I would recommend to give up this "Library" idea. This site is not a suitable place for it and it never was. Literally nobody in the whole world benefits from designing a much worse version of Wikipedia.

45
  • 1
    Or to quote the much later post: blog.codinghorror.com/… 'Stack Overflow is a wiki first' Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 13:14
  • 3
    "What Jeff might have written in some blog 10 years later is irrelevant." Why is that irrelevant? It aligns with the community stance...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 13:34
  • 5
    @Lundin Jeff attwood, 16 Sept 2008: blog.codinghorror.com/…: 'We all have these little tiny pieces of information and if we can just contribute a little bit, that information gets amplified, and maybe a thousand other dumb developers will benefit from my one little piece of good information.' How does a library of knowledge differ from that? Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 13:38
  • 2
    @user1937198 It differs in the reasons outlined in my answer regarding why Wikipedia (unlike SO) successfully built a library of knowledge. "- Careful peer review of language and content. Often by actual domain experts. - Demanding sources for everything claimed. - Searchable site with categorization of articles and topics easily browsed." Quite different from "There's this big universe of dumb programmers, and I'm one of them, and we all have a little bit of knowledge."
    – Lundin
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 13:48
  • 1
    SO is a huge blob of random data, it is no more a library than a garbage dump is a grocery store. Sure, if you poke around on the garbage dump long enough you might find some nice, edible tomatoes. But that doesn't mean that the garbage dumb was designed for the purpose of providing nice tomatoes to the masses... if the ambition was to create a grocery store then clearly the end result is a big fiasco.
    – Lundin
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 13:54
  • 7
    Okay, a different perspective: SO was designed with a repository view in mind (whether stated or not aside). Low-effort askers turned it into the garbage dump you describe. Why can't we still strive for tomatoes? Why do we need to surrender to the garbage?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 13:56
  • 1
    @Cerbrus We could. Or... we could stop trying to save/working for free at the corporate garbage dump with-the-intention-to-be-a-grocery-store and just build a new, community-driven grocery store, where there would be no stock holders. Or you know, we could just buy our tomatoes at the existing Wiki-Mart store.
    – Lundin
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 14:00
  • 2
    Yea, good luck building a new one. Lemme know when there is one that gets a significant amount of traffic.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 14:11
  • 2
    Let me explain a bit. Your answer reads as you hate idea of duplicates/canonicals, because that's how idea of Library is implemented here, IMO. And lack of that mechanism will result in SO being copy of mentioned sites. If I understand your stance incorrectly, please feel free to correct me.
    – markalex
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 14:29
  • 1
    @markalex No Internet community of any form, from traditional forums, to Wikipedia to Youtube, works well without moderation. The general reason for having moderation anywhere is to maintain some sort of minimum standard while keeping all the weirdos, haters and spammers at bay. None of Youtube, Facebook etc aspires to become a library of knowledge, yet the sites are moderated.
    – Lundin
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 14:33
  • 2
    @Lundin, yet again, I said nothing about moderation. I mean curation, and specifically quality increasing curation.
    – markalex
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 14:38
  • 1
    @Cerbrus The very purpose of my answer is to distinct a Q&A site from a "library of knowledge", as it turns out. "It means there's a standard of quality similar as to what's expected on Wikipedia" Seriously... Wikipedia is lightyears ahead in that regard as well.
    – Lundin
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 14:43
  • 2
    I don't recall seeing much "What is [tagname]" questions. Do they really qualify for SO? For example, do we really need questions like "What is integer", "What is regex", "What is sql"? cc @Cerbrus
    – markalex
    Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 15:10
  • 2
    @Lundin Endianness is cherrypicking the kind of abstract notable concept wikipedia is good at. By comparison, 'Large Object Heap' a concept in the .net garbage collector: Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/w/… Loads of complety irrelevant info. Googles second result after the microsoft documentation? stackoverflow.com/questions/8951836/… Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 15:49
  • 6
    "Every question in Stack Overflow is like the Wikipedia article for some extremely narrow, specific programming question." That... sounds exactly like The Library (TM) to me. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 18:10
-51

It comes down to what I call negative curation vs. positive curation. Do you build a library of high-quality questions and answers by removing the bad ones (negative) or somehow tagging the good ones (positive)?

Frankly, the idea that anyone (even collectively) can accurately identify "bad" questions and answers is presumptuous to the point of insanity. The huge number of perfectly good questions in the reopen queue should be proof enough of that.

In addition to being more "welcoming" (remember that old goal?), positive curation allows the possibility of multiple collections of "good" Q&As serving different purposes and, perhaps more importantly, a diversity of opinions.

39
  • 10
    We already have upvotes and bounties. What other method of "tagging the good ones" would you propose? I also don't agree that bad questions can't be identified. The reopen queue is tiny (250 questions at the moment) compared to the amount of questions SO gets on a daily basis.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 22:52
  • 10
    ...the idea that anyone (even collectively) can accurately identify "bad" questions and answers is presumptuous to the point of insanity". You can't identify a bad question? Nor any volunteer helping to curate the network, even democratically? Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 22:55
  • 11
    @KevinKrumwiede how would you curate absolutely "crap" questions? How would you distinguish between extremely bad questions and spam? Removing downvotes is a suggestion that's made on a almost weekly basis, has been discussed to death, and is just not something that can work.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 23:03
  • 27
    "The huge number of perfectly good questions in the reopen queue should be proof enough of that." The goal of closing a question (other than entirely off-topic questions) is to get it fixed so that it can be reopened. There should be good questions in the reopen queue; that is where we want them, so that they can be reopened. Unless you mean they were perfectly good in the first place; that would be bad.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 23:16
  • 16
    Ignore the "crap" questions? Then people will come to Meta complaining that their good question is drowning in a flood of junk, and it's not getting enough visibility. We can't please everyone.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 23:18
  • 15
    "Just ignore them. Why is that so hard?" Sadly, search technology has not quite figured out how to do this. I've searched for an error message and found piles of Stack Overflow questions that did not contain a correct solution. Removing the worst ones and closing the rest as duplicates of the applicable solution makes finding those solutions far easier.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 23:18
  • 14
    "Closure is not an encouragement to fix a question. It's an encouragement to leave and not come back." A large part of the problem here is that the reopen queue is too slow, and users are left in limbo for days. The solution is to fix reopening so that it happens more quickly and users are rewarded for fixing things, not to eliminate closure.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 23:21
  • 12
    "The correct solution for you may not be the correct solution for the next person." Absolutely true, and this is exactly why we need to eliminate all those extra unhelpful questions. When I was searching for that error message, there were maybe four different root causes. Trouble is, there were at least 40 questions about it. Trying all the solutions is a lot easier when you can just find the four solutions via search, rather than spending ages digging through poorly asked duplicates with wrong answers.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 23:22
  • 7
    Mods have nothing to do with question closure, mate... Users take care of that. There may have been some users that refused to close questions during the strike, but on the scale of SO, that number of users was insignificant.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 23:24
  • 18
    (in addition to the fact that mods do relatively little question closure, as Cerbrus said...) "There was no flood of garbage." There absolutely was. There was and is a torrent of people copy-pasting ChatGPT/AI content with absolutely no regard for whether it is correct or even answers the question. We have literal thousands of pending flags about this.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 23:25
  • 14
    "You will accept this" Okay, we've progressed past reasoning into "because I said so." I'm done, then.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Sep 12, 2023 at 23:28
  • 6
    "Frankly, the idea that anyone (even collectively) can accurately identify "bad" questions and answers is presumptuous to the point of insanity." No, not in the slightest. I used to do it 30 times a day, every day; it took barely any effort, and I feel absolutely confident in saying that I was almost always right. "The huge number of perfectly good questions in the reopen queue should be proof enough of that." No, there is no such mass of "perfectly good questions". People keep saying there is. The reason they say it is because they do not understand the question standards or why we have them. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 6:44
  • 7
    "Closure does not provide useful feedback" - Yes, it does. It automatically generates a banner at the top of the question, which is shown to the OP, that explains at least in broad terms the reason for the closure along with explicit suggestions for steps to improve the question and a link to the relevant policy documentation. It typically also comes with at least one comment from at least one close voter with a more detailed explanation of what is missing (or excessive, or off-topic) in the question. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 6:51
  • 7
    "An excellent example of a question that should not be closed if you want to help bring up the next generation of programmers." - but you see, that has absolutely nothing at all to do with the mandate of Stack Overflow. It never did, and the site suffers because people keep coming here falsely imagining this purpose, or thinking that they should be the ones who get to tell us what the purpose of the site is. And no, universities being bad at education has absolutely zero bearing on the moral imperatives of Stack Overflow - or anyone who is not directly involved with those universities. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 6:52
  • 12
    "I always look at "all questions" sorted by newest so I can help people before the bullies get to them," - if your attitude is that people who close questions that don't meet the explicitly stated and painstakingly worked out and refined over many years closure reasons, are "bullies", and that you are here to "help people" first by writing answers to questions that are supposed to be closed - then your actions are actively damaging the site. Please, instead use a site that actually wants people to contribute in the way you are trying to contribute. Commented Sep 13, 2023 at 6:56

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