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We're all aware of how many bad questions and answers are posted on Stack Overflow every day. I think a large portion of these can be attributed to users who misunderstand how SO works. The reason for this is that SO isn't a forum, but (I think) many people treat it as one. New users come here with the idea that we're here to solve their problem; when in reality SO is all about providing high quality resources for future readers.

I believe that many users who post questions or answers simply aren't aware of this. They write their questions in a such a way that it may be possible to solve their problem, but it's too specific or broad or unclear to be useful to other people who come here with a related problem. Similarly, people post answers with the sole intention of solving the asker's problem, not with the intention of writing a well-rounded answer that is also useful for other people with a similar problem.

This is why I think we have to do a better job of telling new users what SO is all about. For a new user SO can be a pretty confusing place. Speaking from personal experience, it took me a very long time to figure out how SO works. Two years ago I didn't understand the point of closing questions; now I'm casting close votes left and right. Pointing out these differences/goals to new users in a clear fashion would improve not only their experience with SO, but ours as well.


To give an example: I envision a dialog that pops up when a new user tries to post a question, with a text like this:

The goal of Stack Overflow is to provide high quality answers to specific programming questions, to serve as a resource for programmers who come to Stack Overflow from a search engine like google. Its aim is not to solve your problem alone, but also that of other programmers who read your question in the future.

As such, we expect you to:

1) make sure your question hasn't been asked already

2) compose a clear, answerable question that is helpful for other people

The idea is to clearly communicate the fundamental goal of SO, without there being too much text to overwhelm a new user, and as such encourage them to compose a high quality post. (Of course, the effectiveness of a dialog popup is debatable, but it's just an example - the point I'm trying to make is that we have to tell new users what we expect from them; how exactly we do that is up for discussion.)

To clarify: I'm not saying that this isn't being done. Or that this dialog is how it should be done. I'm saying that it needs to be done a lot better. How it should be done is up for discussion.

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    They will just click 'OK' and post their question anyway. Commented Oct 2, 2017 at 15:57
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    @MartinJames Yes, I'm sure many of them will. But some won't. Either way, that was just a suggestion. I don't know how we should do it, but I'm convinced that we have to do it more effectively than it is done right now.
    – Aran-Fey
    Commented Oct 2, 2017 at 16:06
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    This is a job for TeamDAG, this Q+A is the best place to add suggestions. This is what they actually have been working on. Commented Oct 2, 2017 at 16:13
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    here is the mentorship program that was tried..
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Oct 2, 2017 at 16:20
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    We do give them a tour which kind of says this. Commented Oct 2, 2017 at 16:21
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    ..and the first sentence is 'Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers'... which does not apply to the newbs etc. because they want their question out there no matter what, so that some rep-cucumber can post a quick answer that can be copied out before the question gets closed. Nothing suggested so far on SO will stop that behaviour. Commented Oct 2, 2017 at 16:31
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    New users come here with the idea that we're here to solve their problem; when in reality SO is all about providing high quality resources for future readers. We're here to do both. We provide high-quality resources for future readers directly by solving a user's problem that they have now.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 2, 2017 at 20:18
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    In order to solve this problem we must first seize control of the education systems of every nation whose members ask questions on Stack Overflow and start from the bottom and work our way up, educating people to think critically, try things before asking, read instructions before operating websites or attempting complicated things, etc. Reminds me of what Carl Sagan used to say, 'if you want to bake an apple pie, first you must create the universe' [sic].
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 2, 2017 at 20:28
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    With you on this one, but if it doesn't work out, I'd recommend hastening your quest to the dupe hammer badge - you're going to need it.
    – cs95
    Commented Oct 2, 2017 at 23:55
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    we could have some low.stackoverflow.com where we move low quality questions.
    – Cœur
    Commented Oct 3, 2017 at 5:05
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    I get where you guys are coming from, and discouraging dupes makes a lot of sense, but remember that it's not always that easy to predict how many people will need a question (reminds me a bit of the "too localized" close reason); that's a lot of what has prevented me from doing self answered Q/A pairs -- what exactly is relevant enough? If it helps 2 programmers? Or 10, 100, 1,000, 10,000? What's the minimum? How would an OP know that number before they post? Is popularity a requirement, or a problem?
    – jrh
    Commented Oct 3, 2017 at 17:29
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    The concept of "forum" has been around since the internet... Q&A..? not so much. When we say "it's not a forum", a lot of new SO users probably don't even understand that. I think SO has done all it can, the rest will just have to be learned by experience.
    – gitsitgo
    Commented Oct 3, 2017 at 17:58
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    "make sure your question hasn't been asked already" - How many times I get flack about hammering questions, sigh. I could easily make rep left and right for these. Only in the (kind of a) rare case will I post an answer. There are exceptions and I do my part to teach rather than throw someone a fish by giving them reference links. Most often times those are ignored and don't want to spend the time to learn, hence the same thing goes for them by not reading/going over the tour/guidelines. Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 2:57
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    @AlanLarimer About: "yet high rep users too often (ever is too often) belittle" - I beg to differ. It's not just the high rep members who do. If and when that does happen, be it high or low rep, just flag the comment. Just make absolutely sure of your shot though. There is a difference between warning them of a potentially unsafe piece of code and insulting. Many a time those two are often confused and they misinterpret them and expect to be talked to like children. Well, children aren't allowed here. Sometimes it's a "tough love" thing, but insulting someone is another ball game. Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 3:02
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    @Fred-ii- I mean "StackOverflow the website". New users have to be informed of this before they post anything; that's not something the community can do. When a new user has submitted a post, the damage is already done.
    – Aran-Fey
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 7:11

6 Answers 6

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Normal forums suffer from this problem too...

[Askers] write their questions in a such a way that it may be possible to solve their problem, but it's too specific or broad or unclear to be useful to other people who come here with a related problem. Similarly, people post answers with the sole intention of solving the asker's problem, not with the intention of writing a well-rounded answer that is also useful for other people with a similar problem.

...which is magnified tenfold by the fact that these forums are not maintained, not moderated, and the advice may be several versions old.

So the question I pose to you would be, what would this truly solve?

I get that users don't think about others when asking about their problem, because if I'm honest with you, I personally don't care about others who may have this issue; I care about me and my issue and I'd like it addressed. To be frank, their mentality is okay; they can ask a question and get their answer and go about their business.

However, we want to place special attention to those questions which actually do impact a larger audience. Demanding that every asker think about their question in the context of others is backwards, for two simple reasons:

  • We won't know if a question affects a broader audience until it exists, and
  • Unless we are truly subject matter experts on something, we cannot ask a question which will encompass a future audience.

We want Stack Overflow to be a repository of knowledge. We (the people around here on Meta) should make this possible by ensuring that only relevant, actually useful questions makes it to the top. Demanding that askers do this for us is both not going to work, and isn't going to change our role in moderating these kinds of questions.

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    What 'makes it to the top' mean? In what meaningful way questions that 'make it to the top' and questions that 'make it to the bottom' differ?
    – Oleg
    Commented Oct 2, 2017 at 20:36
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    This speaks to the point that we need to encourage more in-depth (read: chainsaw) edits. We need to stop worrying so much about how the asker wanted to say something, and more about what the asker is actually asking, and the best possible way to present that question so that it is accessible to the fabled future viewers. "Intent" has been too closely tied to phrasing and wording for far too long, and we need to finally let go of that. It isn't so much the askers job to ask the best version of their question that can be asked, as it is our job to make those questions into the best version.
    – user4639281
    Commented Oct 2, 2017 at 22:49
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    Of course, @Tiny. That's what edits are for (to improve the post), and why we give trusted users who understand the scope and purpose of the site the ability to make edits without barriers.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 3, 2017 at 4:17
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    I agree, it's setting the asker up for failure to ask them to generalize a question. The advice that you can't/shouldn't generalize a function until you have at least three different use cases holds. They likely have only a single problem, and if they understand it well enough to make two other examples, they wouldn't be asking for help. Commented Oct 3, 2017 at 17:58
  • You make a good point in this answer. It's true, we don't think about people from the future when we post questions. But we do think about the people who will read (and hopefully answer) our question, which new users likely do not - or not enough. So yes, you're right in saying that it's not solely the askers' responsibility. But even so, it would still help to make them more aware of the fact that many people will be reading their question, and that it should therefore be as clear as possible.
    – Aran-Fey
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 14:34
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    @Rawing: I disagree that they need to be aware of how many people will be reading their question. They simply need to be aware that people will be reading their question period and it should be as clear as possible.
    – Makoto
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 15:00
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These things are already being done. New users are provided lots of information, links to the help center, etc. to explain how to ask an appropriate question, and how this site is different from other sites. The problem is that new users ignore this information, not that it isn't presented to them.

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  • Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat. Commented Oct 5, 2017 at 20:10
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Aren't aware/lazy/selfish...definitely part of the issue.

Another part of the issue is education - new programmers (young programmers? more so?) that don't know how to ask questions, don't know how to apply dupes to their code/situation, on their machine, especially if they've tried and been unable to make it work.

The real need is for some mentoring/tutoring/guidance. As stated an ad nauseum in meta, that's not what SO is for, and fair enough. It's still attractive for people because they see a bunch of people asking questions, and getting help and answers, and they think "great, I can get help answers too". Nigh-instant feedback encourages this. There's also probably a small effect (which I remember feeling) of wanting to "be a part" of the site by asking/answering questions.

There's also a parallel problem in that SO users desire increased rep, and can get it by answering questions, as well as desiring to help others, especially new programmers. This competes with the goal of keeping SO free of dupe/junk questions.

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  • I'm down with the blatantly off topic. I'll be honest and point out that some of the older/poorer questions marked as dupes have had answers more helpful to me than the better asked/answered questions. Probably a matter of my inexperience and those dupes having contexts closer to what I was looking for, but the question of what is worth keeping/merging/not is going to be complex and controversial. It's part of the reason I can see a place for some sort of Documentation or canonical answer/examples to point or merge things into. I've no idea how that might work though. Commented Oct 2, 2017 at 20:45
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    @pnuts I'm sure an answer can address beginner through expert readers, however I'm not convinced that is the best way to serve each. There's good reason for having beginner and advanced textbooks, and why medicines have different documentation for doctors and in-package consumer labelling. If (particularly) beginners find the docs hard to parse, an deep and detailed answer to satisfy the arcane detail needed for an expert's query will likely be too dense for them to parse, and SO will see the same spam questions. If you're able to write such answers, you've a great career opportunity! Commented Oct 3, 2017 at 13:04
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Instead of a popup, one might prefill the question input field with some form-like text that can act as a guideline and/or checklist for a question. What I mean is something like it is often found on GitHub repositories issue forms:

The content of this could very closely follow the How to ask guidelines from the help center.

The advantage of this is that people need to actively delete the section that states things like "Type introductory paragraph here" or "Provide the results of your (re)search here" or "Post the mcve of the code you have a problem with here". So by deliberately deleting this content they would already know that their question might not be according to the rules and hopefully decide to still include that part.

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    Although that seems like a good idea - I see problems with it. Namely, what would you put in the prefill? Questions on this site vary heavily in the information they require to be meaningful, and by putting suggestions this way (assuming they don't ctrl+a del) both limit what they provide (they might not think to add a helpful log because they weren't specifically prompted) or overprovide (including a full dump of the code because they saw the word code and not minimal example of the to the left of it...
    – Shadow
    Commented Oct 3, 2017 at 4:19
  • I think I made a suggestion similar to this years ago in response to a similar question. I think the idea has merit. Commented Oct 3, 2017 at 15:37
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    I'm not strictly against this idea, but if you do it get ready for hundreds of questions with #### Code Sample, a copy-pastable example if possible at the top, and more annotations throughout. Commented Oct 3, 2017 at 16:51
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    @LordFarquaad you're totally right... and we should still do this anyway. Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 13:02
  • That template is even bad, code doesn't belong at the top. You should introduce or summarise your question first, and only then post code. Your template would actually promote bad questions. Commented Oct 5, 2017 at 6:54
  • @MarkRotteveel The above is a screenshot from a specific GitHub site, where it makes sense to first place code. I think I meantionned clearly that I was talking about the kind of template and that in the case of SO, a template might look more like what is written in in "how to ask". Commented Oct 5, 2017 at 8:04
  • Ah, ok. Even there I would consider code before problem description a bad idea. Commented Oct 5, 2017 at 8:05
4

I think the problem is not that we don't have the info provided, it's that it is ignored.

I would like to see us put a higher barrier on asking questions whether that be higher rep or complete more tutorials. I prefer the idea of a review queue. I think that low rep users should have their questions reviewed and approved before they are made public. During this review period, experienced users should instruct them on where their question falls short of guidelines... clear problem statement, show your work, properly format code, post error messages and other relevant info, etc. If the question is an obvious duplicate, it's identified during the review and it never gets to the site. Once all the necessary changes are made, info added, etc. then the question is approved and becomes public. Once people understand that there is a quality bar that must be met before a question can be answered, they will be more likely to pay attention to the rules and make the desired changes.

Users that allow bad questions through the review system should be flagged. Enough flags and you can't participate in the review system for some period of time, etc.

Another issue is that bad questions are answered before they are fixed. People will guess at what OP is asking and give an answer with 4 different methods that might work. One of them might actually work and an answer is accepted. Now we have a bad question and a bunch of overly generic answers... neither of which are useful. We're teaching people that you don't have to put in the effort to write a good question because it's going to get answered anyway. Putting a review system in place prevents a lot of these bad questions getting answers.

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  • So where are you going to get the reviewers to actually review all of these questions. As it is there aren't enough reviewers to review everything that currently gets reviewed, even before you add in a requirement that all questions from new users need to be reviewed before they can be visible. And currently not only are there simply not enough reviewers for many items to get reviewed at all, items that do get reviewed often take quite a while to be completed.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 20:19
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    Your suggestion for the review queue is Triage and Help and Improvement, they already exist and behave similarly to how you suggest for the most part, but is completely broken and useless.
    – user4639281
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 20:23
  • @Servy There are plenty of reviewers, they just aren't being funneled/focused into the right areas. Look at how many questions are getting answered each day. There are people here that can be reviewers, we just need to better encourage them to be reviewers. Maybe part of the process is that we make those review queues more visible, hand out more points for cleaning up questions, and so on.
    – JeffC
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 20:30
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    @TinyGiant I am aware of that but it's not a barrier... it's just sitting there on the sidelines, out of clear view. I've tried doing those and I find the whole interface pretty bad so I agree with you there.
    – JeffC
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 20:32
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    @JeffC questions in triage are excluded from the front page / tag listings until the review is completed, so it is actually a barrier. The main issue is that the majority of triage reviewers have absolutely no clue what the rules and guidelines are that these questions should be following. This is partly due to the fact that it is one of the first review queues users get access to, well before they have shown that they understand how the site works and what is expected of questions. Nevermind that though, most of the users on this site don't know how this site works, nor what is expected.
    – user4639281
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 20:35
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    @JeffC There are plenty of people with the reputation to be reviewers, sure. There aren't plenty of people who are capable and willing to review effectively. Most people aren't coming to SO because they like being janitors (and I don't blame them for that in the slightest), they're typically coming here to ask or answer questions (which is of course great). There have been numerous attempts to incentivise people to review when they don't have the skill and interest in reviewing. All of them have ended in disaster, with rampant abuse that made the review queues cause tons of harm.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 20:36
  • @TinyGiant They're excluded from the frontpage, but not the questions list, so it is a barrier, but not as much of one.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 20:37
  • @TinyGiant I agree with you there... 100%. Many people don't understand the guidelines, even high rep users at times. So another solution is to increase the rep needed to participate in review queues. I guess I don't know how questions get into this queue. On the tags I frequent, I would guess 80+% of the questions are bad but when I just went into the queue for one of those tags, no questions are in there.
    – JeffC
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 20:38
  • @Servy ahhh, well I suppose excluding said questions from the tag listing until they've passed review would be an improvement, but as I said Triage is completely useless so it wouldn't be much of an improvement. Unfortunately it has been expressed by the powers that be that the review system is too big and too old to be worked on, and any improvements would come after (or with) a complete rewrite of the review system.
    – user4639281
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 20:40
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    @Servy That was well put, "Most people aren't coming to SO because they like being janitors", and that's exactly how I feel reading the new questions on tags I watch. I would rather shut the questions down and point the user at some guidelines to fix the question themselves (I feel like the asker should show some effort, even if misguided before I help). But, the tags I frequent are low volume so they get answers from all too eager folks that don't care about the quality of the question.
    – JeffC
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 20:42
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    @JeffC So then presumably you can imagine what would happen if you succeeded in convincing such a user to determine whether a question should be allowed on the site or not (which is not an easy thing to do, for the record). Naturally they're going to allow it, because then they can post an answer to it.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 20:56
  • @JeffC Reputation has very little to do with moderation ability, skill, or knowledge of the rules. Raising the reputation bar for entry into the review queues is not likely to have the effect you think it will. I've spoken with many low rep users who are very knowledgeable about how the site works and what is expected of questions, and conversely I've spoken with many high rep users who simply don't have a clue. If you want to raise the bar for janitorial skill, you would need some way of measuring a user's janitorial skill. We currently have no such measurement.
    – user4639281
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 21:10
  • @Servy I agree with you and I addressed that in my answer, Users that allow bad questions through the review system should be flagged. Enough flags and you can't participate in the review system for some period of time, etc.
    – JeffC
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 21:18
  • @JeffC So how do you plan to identify the users allowing bad questions? And note that there are already systems in place for banning bad reviewers, but there are still lots of bad reviewers. The last time they made a big push to incentivise reviewers there was an order of magnitude more abusive reviewers than there were reviewers trying at all. Trying to find and ban them all was simply unmanageable.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 21:25
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    @JeffC It's been shown that once you get past a minimum bar (somewhere in the neighborhood of a few thousand rep, the minimum for most of the queues) that rep is entirely uncorrelated with reviewer quality. More rep doesn't make someone even more likely to be a good reviewer; the rate of incidence of bad reviewers simply doesn't decrease as rep goes up.
    – Servy
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 21:33
-3

Only a small percentage of questions are actually going to be good and useful to future readers. You can try to increase that number with your suggestion or the mentorship program or in some other way. I believe that no matter what you do it will always be small compared to the total amount of questions.

This is not such a big problem, in order to create a Q&A repository questions need to be asked (duh...) and it's not really important if it's 1 good question in 20 or 3/20 the real problem is that almost nothing is done to improve the quality of the content that stays here after the question is posted, many suggestions are constantly brought up and nobody cares and nothing is done.

The community always responds in the classic SO way: "If bad questions will not be posted all the other problems won't exist" never mind that it's an unsolvable problem and in fact if it will be solved and everybody will follow https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/261593/1398418 SO will die.

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    I don't understand what you are advocating here.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 3, 2017 at 4:16
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    @CodyGray I advocate concentrating on what to do after a question was posted, trying to prevent bad questions is futile.
    – Oleg
    Commented Oct 3, 2017 at 7:28
  • The "shame" idea is counter to encouraging a learning attitude and collaborative community. Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 13:34
  • @AlanLarimer What "shame" idea?
    – Oleg
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 13:37
  • Sorry, not clear enough: Anthony Pegram's comment in the linked discussion. Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 13:39
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    @AlanLarimer Oh yeah, definitely. Though I think he's not completely serious with the shame part. I completely disagree with that answer because I think that if everybody will only try to ask good questions there will just not be enough questions and this site will die. Most people who ask questions don't know that they ask bad questions and some of them are going to be good so bad questions are vital for this site. What I want to see is much better handling of them after they were posted and the community recognized they're bad. (I intentionally don't mention anything specific)
    – Oleg
    Commented Oct 4, 2017 at 13:55

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