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In the tag, we get a lot of duplicates. Off the cuff, I would speculate that 10-20% of all Bash questions are reiterations of maybe 50 common questions -- basic quoting, variables, syntax, pipelines, and everyone's favorite: the user used Notepad++ and gets weird error messages because of the MS-DOS carriage returns in the script file.

I'm looking for advice on how to proceed to rectify the situation. I'm thinking perhaps there should be additional tools for coordination / community building than Meta and chat (neither of which seem to be frequented much by the high-rep users of this particular tag) but given what we have, how would I proceed to initiate a "dupe squashing meltdown" project?

This is a sort-of meta-meta question in that I would expect a popular answer to be "start a discussion on https://meta.stackoverflow.com/", but given the extensive scope, we are talking about maybe 50-100 posts on Meta, not just an individual posting; and part of the question is also, how to promote any such effort so that the stakeholders (high-rep users and others with an interest) are made aware of it? Spamming (e.g. by posting @comments summoning users who have a high score, but who might not be interested in this effort at all) hardly seems like the way to go?

I know that the community has a dedicated site on http://sopython.com/ but starting to build a site on my own seems a bit odd -- I presume there was (and still is) an active Python community who are contributing to the site (otherwise it might as well be a personal web site, again with the problem of how to promote it without going out of line with spam or other shenanigans). In fact there are also a few popular Bash sites which could work as a vehicle, including the Bash wiki at http://wiki.bash-hackers.org/doku.php and Greg's Bash site at http://mywiki.wooledge.org/BashGuide but they have their own agendas and their own communities; hijacking them for this would quite possibly be unwelcome.

If the "wiki" on the SE sites was actually a proper Wiki, I think that would fit the bill perfectly, but my impression is that the site developers have no desire to take the site in that direction.

I'm asking in particular for on https://stackoverflow.com/ but the question is general enough to apply to all tags and all sites.

Incidentally, I have a query (forked from this one) which doesn't really reveal some of the most popular duplicates, but should be a start. Based on the results, and my own observations over the last 3+ years, it would seem that the problem is mainly one of agreeing on a proper common duplicate.

I have collected some examples, where all the answers get high Google rank, and many are the targets of duplicate nominations; in each group, one should be made the "proper" canonical answer, and all the others (and their duplicates) should be redirected there.

Here is "use double quotes, not single, for variable interpolation", specifically in the context of using sed to substitute a value with another from a variable.

Here is a related, but distinct group (the twist is that the variable value contains a slash).

So my question is decidedly not "how can I personally decide which one of these" but rather, how can we together, as a community, decide which one of these, and a number of fifty-odd other similar groups, then proceed individually to actually do something about the problem?

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  • I accidentally posted this on M.SE at first, but was advised to take it here instead. Apologies for the mess.
    – tripleee
    Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 7:50
  • @InfiniteRecursion: gold badge holders can. Since when do silver badge holders have dupe hammer influence? Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 8:43
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    @MartijnPieters, My bad, silver badge holders are in discussion, not yet implemented Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 8:46
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    You are free to take the sopython source to build a bash site with it. Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 8:51
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    @MartijnPieters Again, the problem I am trying to address is not "what can I do in isolation" but "how can the community cooperate".
    – tripleee
    Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 8:53
  • I understood that, I'm just letting you know that we are sharing our tools, so other communities can cooperate with helpful tools too. Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 8:55
  • Would making use of the tag wiki for frequently asked questions be appropriate? Incidentally, as a member of the Python community you mentioned I'm drafting an answer that discusses how we do things. This won't answer your question per se but might help discussion by showing how one particular small community does things.
    – Ffisegydd
    Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 10:33
  • @Ffisegydd Much appreciated. I like the tag wiki but the current design doesn't give it a lot of visibility or usability. A proper wiki would let us add new pages for subtopics etc.
    – tripleee
    Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 10:47
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    As a matter of fact, I had not visited stackoverflow.com/tags/bash/info before. It does contain a fair amount of more or less useful stuff, but with the limited visibility, I'm not sure that's the right place for things, and anyway, it's certainly not the place to coordinate further development.
    – tripleee
    Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 10:54
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    Great initiative! I think you could even write a community wiki answer to address exactly this topic. I say it because it is how some cases were handled in UNIX & Linux on the Let's compile a list of canonical Q&As discussion.
    – fedorqui
    Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 11:07
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    @fedorqui Thanks for the pointer. That's roughly what I expected the answer to this one would look like, but I was hoping there would be something better, especially for coordinating the work going forward. Still, an excellent resource, and eerily topical for this question.
    – tripleee
    Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 11:21
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    Rather than each language-tag nursing a custom off-site canonical reference list (php has room-11.github.io/canonical.html, btw); it might make sense to agree on common tag-wiki markers/structure and craft a unified userscript that hooks into the closevote dialog, presenting e.g. an alternative categorized list.
    – mario
    Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 12:35

3 Answers 3

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On Unix & Linux, we tend to not worry too much as to whether a question is canonical. We try to list useful questions in the relevant tag wiki (see for example shell and the related tags listed at the end).

Canonical questions are usually best written from scratch, as naturally-asked questions tend to include some side baggage that would confuse future visitors. The process to create a canonical question generally goes like this:

  • Someone identifies the need for a canonical question. Usually, the reason is “this has to be the 10th time I answer a similar question this year, can't we settle this once and for all and close new questions as duplicates?”
  • If no suitable duplicate target can be found, someone (either the first person, or another person by request) writes a Q&A pair.

Sometimes we discuss it in chat, sometimes on meta if we're not sure how to break things down. You don't need one meta thread per canonical question, only when it isn't clear at first what the question(s) should be. There is no official process to declare a question “canonical”: just add it to the tag wiki, there's only a need for debate if someone disputes the inclusion in the tag wiki. There is probably some useful cross-fertilization between SO and U&L; I know I sometimes quote SO posts from U&L and vice versa.

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    The Super User SE site uses a "community-faq" tag for such questions, which I personally find quite useful. Perhaps adapting this concept to have, e.g., a "bash-community-faq" tag would be appropriate. superuser.com/questions/tagged/community-faq
    – TTT
    Commented Dec 4, 2014 at 18:31
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I'm looking for advice on how to proceed to rectify the situation. I'm thinking perhaps there should be additional tools for coordination / community building than Meta and chat (neither of which seem to be frequented much by the high-rep users of this particular tag) but given what we have, how would I proceed to initiate a "dupe squashing meltdown" project?

In all honesty? Just do it.

The problems with these initiatives is to get people to actually go through all the trouble and create canonical questions. When Felix did it with some questions in the JS tag - for example this question, it was very welcome.

The hardest part in these is execution - if you get to a point you have a solid and clear question and a good answer right. You've done this site a great service and you should definitely proceed.

While there is a "chance for exploit" here with rep gain - I'm yet to see people argue or fight about canonizing a question since it's so important. If you want collaborative help you can ask for the question to get a collaborative effort lock.

We need more people willing to pick up this glove.

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    +1 Could you please expand on "ask for the question to get a collaborative effort lock" -- you mean flag for moderator attention? With some specific flag and/or wording?
    – tripleee
    Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 11:45
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    Anyone who thinks that contributing both halves of a universally useful Q&A pair is a "rep exploit" hasn't thought about it hard enough. Your esteem among your peers should most definitely increase if you create such an artifact.
    – jscs
    Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 19:22
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    I like this answer, but it really doesn't specify any coordination process at all, so I'm hesitant to accept it. Maybe I'm over-engineering things but one of the problems with execution I expect is duplication of work (or worse, clashes) if we don't coordinate properly.
    – tripleee
    Commented Nov 5, 2014 at 5:58
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You mentioned the Python community as part of your question, so I thought it a good idea to give a quick summary of what we're doing. This unfortunately won't answer your question fully, but it might help to spark discussion/ideas by presenting how one particular community does things.


From here on I'll refer to the community I'm a part of as the Python community, but in actual fact we are a small subset of the active users in the Python tag. Granted, we are an active subset, and you'll find more than a few questions that have been closed purely by members of our small community, but please bear in mind that we don't speak for Python as a whole.

The seed of our community is the Python chatroom. Before having a fancy(ish) website it was simply a room full of Python users who enjoyed discussion. This chatroom is an important, vital part of our community. Without the chatroom as a beginning, there would be no Python community with associated website. I don't know if bash has a chatroom, but I think that having an active chatroom on SO is imperative. The use of a chatroom allows users to discuss problems and allows the community to grow. It is difficult (and frowned upon) to discuss issues in a comments thread, having a chatroom allows somewhere for these discussions to progress so that you can decide upon, for e.g., canonical answers.

Eventually, it was decided by some of our more ambitious users that we needed a website for coordinating and presenting our work, thus sopython was born. Having a website allows us to put together a list of canonical questions for closing as duplicates, these duplicates are curated by members of our community, with people in chat that we know and trust being given an Editor role on the website such they can add/remove/edit as they see fit. We also have a wiki that can be used by the community for various things, hell I drafted this very answer on the wiki so I could show it to others before submitting it...

In terms of how the community manages itself, it helps that we are a particularly small community who are all working towards a common goal of helping people and keeping the Python tag relatively clean/free of trash. We have Room Owners (ROs) who generally oversee things in chat, some of the ROs (and a particular bird-shaped non-RO) work together on the website, which as Martijn has mentioned is open source. We have a Trello board which we use in planning our projects. Generally, as we are all working towards the same end, people are willing to accept the ROs to guide the community as a whole, though we do also hold quarterly meetings where any issues can be brought up in a formal discussion dedicated to the community.

In conclusion, I've given a brief summary of how things work in our small neck of the woods. The main thing driving our community is wanting to help others, and wanting to keep our tags 'clean'. If you're going to want to start a community then I'd suggest the first thing to do is to start a chatroom where you can try to get other users active, if bash doesn't have one already. If you're looking for a simple way to list canonical questions, I'd suggest setting up a Trello board (or similar). This would allow you to add sub-topics and such and is probably more versatile than the tag wiki, it would also allow comments if someone wants to suggest a better canonical question. If you manage to get the community going, you are welcome to use the open source sopython code for building a relatively lightweight website.

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    +1 but slightly troubled by the prospect of requiring several off-site resources in order to build a working community. Maybe that's the way the Powers that Be want things to remain, though?
    – tripleee
    Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 11:31
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    Couldn't resist: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/20729
    – tripleee
    Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 11:33
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    I suspect that the Powers At Be aren't too interested in developing a system for communities to do this kind of thing. After all, each community will want to do it differently :P
    – Ffisegydd
    Commented Nov 4, 2014 at 11:37
  • Looking back - a year later - does this work? Python seems to have some problems with trivial questions (typos, simple misunderstanding). But maybe duplicates are better than other tags? Or maybe not.
    – strubbly
    Commented Oct 11, 2015 at 8:30
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    @strubbly I don't know much about the other tags so cannot fairly comment/compare between Python and them. I would note that, due to its increase in popularity, Python is one of the most popular languages for college/university teaching. I'd imagine (though I have no quantitative evidence) that this causes a lot of trival questions in the tag.
    – Ffisegydd
    Commented Oct 11, 2015 at 8:35
  • Incidentally, with the introduction of the new Teams feature that SO is promoting we are looking at how we could integrate our existing (off-site) functionality into it. Will be interesting to see what happens.
    – Ffisegydd
    Commented Oct 11, 2015 at 8:36
  • The old Bash room died (got deleted for inactivity) but I created a new one. Let's see if this one takes off. chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/98569/bin-bash
    – tripleee
    Commented Dec 21, 2015 at 13:12
  • (For historical reference, the "Teams" in the comment from 2015 never took off properly. It allowed groups of Stack Overflow users to be members of a "team" but beyond creating these "tags for users" - with very limited visibility anyway - I don't think it did anything useful for anyone. There is now a distinct feature with a similar name.)
    – tripleee
    Commented Aug 1, 2018 at 3:45

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