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There is a new article posted in Google Cloud Collective: Welcome Google Cloud Community

But the Article is not a technical post offering solution to a problem, but rather a "Welcome to collective" post that also asks for feedback. Basically, such a post would be otherwise considered blatantly off-topic and not following guidelines.

Now, we can say that this is an article and that ordinary users cannot write such posts for now. But there are several problems following that.

First, articles can earn their author reputation points which in turn opens privileges to the rest of the site. Earning reputation for off-topic content is definitely not OK, and unfair to the rest of the community.

Second, posting off-topic content anywhere on the site can encourage posting off-topic content by regular, especially new, users in the form of regular questions and answers, as they will not be aware that Articles are special.

How can we deal with off-topic Articles? Can we moderate them and if so, how?

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  • 39
    I vote "Yes, of course they can be." They should be closed. But of course, since I am not a member of the Collective, I can only comment or share private feedback, not moderate or perform any kind of curation on it. Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 18:35
  • 84
    This is the stuff which I feared when collectives were created. That admin is writing the post with good faith but they don't know that SO is not a forum, and they don't know how SO works anyways. I think moderators can close and delete articles. In this case that article should be deleted and the admin should understand how SO works.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 18:41
  • 15
    There is no useful use for articles that the existing QA doesn't solve.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 18:43
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    The fact that there is no intra-collective communication channel for a collective between its members is actually kinda... that sounds like an oversight to me. That will lead to that style of communication overflowing into existing channels, like this article. Maybe that in itself should be brought up in a feature-request of some sort.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 18:46
  • 64
    I'm strongly opposed to a post like that giving the OP reputation points. As you've mentioned, reputation gives privileges, and reputation gained from an off-topic post should not give one any privileges at all. If there were no reputation to be gained, I wouldn't care particularly; articles do look different than the main site, much like meta looks different, so it should be reasonably clear that articles are special.
    – cigien
    Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 18:49
  • 24
    Looks a bit like the whole Collectives concept is not entirely compatible with the public Q&A that SO (still) is. Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 20:21
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    The original release post says: "Articles give Recognized Members the opportunity to provide deeper knowledge and insights through how-to-guides, knowledge articles, or announcements." While I'm not sure how announcements like this would "provide deeper knowledge and insights", I suppose that means this is supposed to be allowed by SE. Or maybe only announcements that do "provide deeper knowledge and insights" are? Anyway, in my opinion, this isn't useful content for SO.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 21:16
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    @BaummitAugen I would expect that announcement would be more like announcement for new feature, library or similar accompanied with quick "How to start guide"
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 21:18
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    The size of the score display in relation to the size of the vote buttons on articles is somewhat hilarious. Why did they make it the same as the normal Q&A? Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 21:30
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    If this is really the type of thing for which the announcement article type is intended, I agree with others that votes on announcement articles certainly should not yield reputation. Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 21:34
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    I'm curious to see how they intended to get answers to the questions in their "announcement". Very few users can post articles; It would be unwieldy to have them as comments; They'd be blatantly off topic as questions... Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 3:07
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    Imo they shouldn't be closed, but deleted. Closure is to prevent answers while a question is salvageable. An article doesn't get answers, and an off-topic one isn't salvageable.
    – Erik A
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 10:00
  • 14
    FYI: The said Article has since been deleted.
    – iBug
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 16:06
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    That's indeed another bug, @DalijaPrasnikar, and it's been reported to the development team. Mods can't see the deleted Article, either.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 18:39
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    @CodyGray I am no longer sure what is a bug and what is a feature :(
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 18:44

6 Answers 6

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The short answer to your question is No, they are not. The article in question has been deleted. I'd like also to remind everyone that this is very much a beta product and experience, and so - while we hope that things go perfectly, it's probably unreasonable to expect that there would be no hiccups.

We have been in conversations with the Collectives team as well as revisiting our guidance to better understand why this happened and will work to see that it doesn't happen again.

Articles are not meant to be invitations to chat or blog-style content. We want them to be used for what we said in our announcement - technical content that fits the nature of Stack Overflow.

I do want to reiterate that this very much is a beta/mvp product and some growing pains will happen - while I can't promise a perfect rollout or that problems won't happen, we will do our best to fix them and change things so they're less likely to happen again in the future.

Update: We’ve been having more conversations about this internally and this article was posted based on guidance provided to Google by Stack Overflow. Google was following our advice in publishing this content as an article. We agree that this type of content is not appropriate for articles in their current form and are revising our guidance to our Collectives partners. Specifically, we’ve asked that future articles be more in line with our on-topic guidance.

We’re working with the Collectives team and will be considering other, appropriate spaces, where this type of content and conversations can be had within collectives because we see that these types of announcements can have value, just not where it’s confused with the main Q&A on SO and will share with the community when we have more on this subject.

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    If only there was prior art examples on how companies approached their integration with Stack Overflow... (While this response is half-sarcastic, it highlights the very real criticism that I had already provided to this feature. You can call it "growing pains", "papercuts", or "hiccups". I can only see it as history repeating itself.) But thank you for dealing with it fairly quickly.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 22:55
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    Thank you for the answer. It is encouraging to see that there are some constraints regarding the content. However, I very much agree with @Makoto as this was rather predictable. If only you haven't spend year figuring out a feature that is full of loopholes and seriously under-baked at initial release. It is possible that you will fix and polish some, but I am afraid that will not be enough because basic premise and workflow will not pass the test of time.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Jul 4, 2021 at 9:55
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    Well said. I didn't really read everything yet, but your voice sounds reassuring and correct. Thanks for that. Commented Jul 4, 2021 at 11:55
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    @Makoto I think you're right. However, the key difference for me here is that because we can be much closer to these companies, we can help shape how this interaction goes (and build functionality to better support it) a lot more than before. What CMs would do for these other companies would be just sending them an email and asking them to revisit their practices. We can do a lot more than that now, so I'm hopeful that we can make it work better than in the past.
    – Cesar M StaffMod
    Commented Jul 6, 2021 at 21:51
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    Is any of the guidance public? It would probably reduce the amount of "hiccups" if everyone had access to it.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jul 6, 2021 at 22:51
  • @CesarM: It isn't like this couldn't have been a thing before, and while I don't know the internals of the CM team, having seen the interactions of the CM team and companies over the last decade or so would at least lead me to assume that there is or was some kind of protocol in place to reach out to communities that abused Stack Overflow as some kind of community forum or help desk, long before contracts were signed and long before any of these pieces were installed.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 6, 2021 at 22:59
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    @CesarM: To reinforce the point, I'm going to state this a bit louder - being hopeful that something is going to change without having taken the steps to see to its change is not hope. The company is expecting its community to be patient with it as it tries this - like we were patient with a whole slew of all of the other things that the company tried, which we probably also warned you all about - and I have to be blunt here - there's really no patience left. This whole company interaction thing isn't a new problem, and the company needed to get that right before rolling this out.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 6, 2021 at 23:03
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    @Makoto I don't think I understand what you mean here. Yes, we reached out to several companies in the past when they abused Stack Overflow. That reaching out was much akin to a cold call, we would contact them in the means we could find (be it e-mail, their own ticketing system, etc) and offer guidance. Companies could act on that as they wished. Or not at all. With companies that are involved in collectives, we have a much closer relationship and can have a lot more control and input into what happens, making sure abuse doesn't happen is easier within collectives, not harder.
    – Cesar M StaffMod
    Commented Jul 6, 2021 at 23:26
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    I completely understood when the original explanation here was that the guidance provided to the corporate customer(s) was not sufficient, or not sufficiently clear. That happens. However, this new update boggles the mind. How could this article have been something that was posted based on guidance provided by Stack Overflow? How and why would Stack Overflow have recommended that this content be posted anywhere on the site? It's one thing for there to be growing pains with a new feature. But if this was actual guidance provided, then that's not a growing pain. That's just a systemic failure.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 7, 2021 at 4:21
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    @CesarM I think that since this happened already, maybe is time to lay the cards and show us the guidance provided to the company like Scratte said above. The blog has already some kind of third party content, maybe there? Also, there's the problem with using "article" to name this, people are going to be understandably confused ("why can't I use a feature called articles to publish company articles?")
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 7, 2021 at 4:28
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    @CodyGray the how and why are still a bit unclear to me and something I'm having more conversations about - it seems what the CMs wrote was different than what was delivered and we failed to catch it when we were doing a review. Happy to update when I know more :)
    – Cesar M StaffMod
    Commented Jul 7, 2021 at 16:13
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    "We’re working with the Collectives team and will be considering other, appropriate spaces, where this type of content and conversations can be had within collectives" - so we're basically just full-on social media now? This sounds like what we've all said no to for years - what changed? Commented Jul 8, 2021 at 8:25
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    So with the latest revision, I suppose then that my concern is being overlooked. Yep, companies are gonna use Stack Overflow in any manner they see fit without being in-tune to how the site works because they value the community's interactions with them more than the community. How much louder do you need us to shout about this being an issue, or should we save our breath? Cordoning it off to somewhere else flies in the face of "it's not supposed to be here at all".
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 8, 2021 at 15:48
  • Here it says that the article can be announcement. Should it be fixed?
    – Sinatr
    Commented Jul 9, 2021 at 13:12
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    @sinatr there is some confusion/discussion on which types of announcements are intended. One interpretation is that an on-topic announcement is like "next week we will release a new version of Go with such and such features" whereas an off-topic announcement would be "welcome to the Collective, please give feedback", i.e., a meta-announcement, such as the one posted in the now-deleted article. However, this seems to be the core of the problem, so a clear definition in the linked post, but more so in the guidance provided to the companies, would be very welcome.
    – Marijn
    Commented Jul 9, 2021 at 13:27
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Stuff like this should not be posted in an Article. Articles are like Documentation; they are a dictionary of information. Regardless of whether reputation is linked to Articles, off-topic posts should not be allowed.

If it's similar to Q&A, why should it be littered among useful info? It's noise and deters people from finding what they need in an Article if there's off-topic info among the Articles.

Articles are intended, just like Q&A, to be a repository of useful information. As such, off-topic content like this should not be allowed in Articles, regardless of the reputation gain/loss.

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    There's a feature request regarding voting: Downvoting Articles should not cost reputation
    – BSMP
    Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 19:08
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    Just as a note, articles do show up in the search when you use the search bar at the top.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 19:18
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    While I don't necessarily disagree with you, I beleive that, as normal users, we can't really provide an authoritative answer to this question. It's between the owners/managers of Stack Overflow, and their paying customers, to define what kind of content is on topic for articles or not. We can say what we want about it, but ultimately it's just an opinion, not a real answer to the question asked here.
    – user000001
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 6:00
  • @user000001 The answers here probably influence how people vote, people look at meta for community consensus. I'm not sure it will work out if there are lots of off-topic articles with negative scores. Something would need to be changed there and we cannot do anything except voting. I take this answer as basically that such articles should be downvoted and I agree (there really must be a better solution than mixing programming content with meta content). The owners of SO can of course also post here or simply change the system (remove the downvote button for example). Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 8:55
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    @user000001 yes, you have a point. But I want to express my opinion somewhere even if it means I am shouting at a tree. If Articles are truly what they claim to be then this answer is all the more applicable. Articles are supposed to be knowledge, right? How can Stack define knowledge?
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 17:34
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    "Articles are like Documentation" - I think that's yet to be determined. They will definitely need some different rules than Q&A regarding topicality. They might be suitable for announcements, both of technical nature and to the community (e.g. a "Welcome, here's how we roll"). They might as well contain meta content, why not? But I agree that they are unsuitable for discussions. SO should provide chat channels or meta teams or whatever to collectives for that purpose.
    – Bergi
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 21:36
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Wanted to expand on the comment that I wrote above.

While an obvious solution is to downvote → close → delete just like we would with a standard post, I bid that we first take some time to consider the larger implications of this since this is the first article posted of this kind so far.

Collectives are being treated, to some extent, as communities. You "join" a collective, which implies being a part of something, not just gaining a label.

Therefore, it makes sense that a Collective would want to be able to communicate with itself; specifically from admin(s) to members, and to a lesser extent members to members (we don't have user to user communication in general outside of chat, so I think this is less important). I don't think this need is out of place, and I think it's a natural extension of what a Collective is shaping up to be.

However, there is currently no channel designated for intra-collective communication. This current setup will lead to meta-style intra-collective communication overflowing into existing channels, like the linked article; I strongly suspect that this will not be the last unless the setup or guidance changes. I consider this to be a sizeable oversight by Stack; thinking through this it seems like meta chatter from Collectives was an inevitability.

I don't think that articles should be used for meta-posting, at least not without restriction or added labeling of some sort. There's also the issue of reputation – I agree with @cigien's comment above that main-site rep. should never be gained for off-topic content, so that needs to be addressed too.

Admittedly, this is only a single article – but I think it's likely indicative of a need for Collectives to have some channel where this type of post is actually on-topic. Whether that's a Collective's own "Meta" of some sort, a meta articles section for Collectives, a Team, or even just a chatroom... I think this is bigger than a single well-intentioned but off-topic post and needs to be formally addressed.

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    This makes sense; a channel of communication where these off-topic things could be asked. This way the actual Articles would be unpolluted.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 19:32
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    Intra-collective communications can occur in a chat room, just as any other inter-user communications. Lack of rep for use of chat is not an issue as mods can grant access to any user outside of rep requirements.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 3:16
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    I agree, zcoop98! This is actually take came up very early in the discovery for this product - I agree that these conversations can have a place, and companies will want to have them. We just shouldn't host them in the middle of public, technical Q&A on Stack Overflow. If we decide to support it, it should be in a space that's built for it and that's separate from main SO.
    – Cesar M StaffMod
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 22:09
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    Chats have existed for a long time, and there are Google rooms that are quite active: chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/217630. I created a specific GCP room a while back (several attempts, in fact), but there was never any interest, and the room just died off and was deleted. I'm not sure people come to stack to have a nice chat with other people with similar interests, but rather to get answers to their questions (or to provide answers).
    – Jofre
    Commented Jul 6, 2021 at 8:16
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Reputation has to be removed from articles, that's the only solution.

If that happens and the admins or recognized members want to write off topic articles then sure they can since it doesn't give them any advantage over other Stack Overflow users.

If they want to keep upvotes/downvotes on articles, then just use them to distinguish which article the userbase found useful or not.

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    I agree with this completely. It seems that many users are hoping (understandably) that articles can be curated the same way as other content on the main site. I'm trying not to be pessimistic, but I suspect the company is going to set their own guidelines/quality standards on this front, and I fear that these standards are not going to be in sync with the existing standards.
    – cigien
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 14:21
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    I also don't see why the community should take on the burden of trying to curate articles, when we don't have the curation abilities. I personally find that article blatantly off-topic, but I can't vote to close/delete, so I'd just be shouting at the wind. I think the right approach here is to not let articles interfere with the main site mechanics as far as possible, and removing rep seems a great way to head in that direction.
    – cigien
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 14:22
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    Yes exactly, the company (Google) or any other company will be paying Stack Overflow to have their own collective so it's logical that they would want to write off-topic articles and that's not wrong since well they are paying! But, if we don't want articles to be downvoted alot, or a meta post about this every couple of days, it's better to just remove reputation from articles, thus ending this whole discussion. Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 14:25
  • Reputation is used as an incentive to ask or answer questions, but if admins/recognized members want to gain reputation to write articles, then it means they probably don't care about the product, all they care about is gaining reputation in that case Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 14:26
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    From a comment by Cody: "Diamond mods don't have any privileges when it comes to moderating Articles, other than the ability to delete/undelete comments. We can't even edit (we could before, but that loophole was patched). The only people who have any privileges when it comes to Articles are the admins of the team." Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 16:22
  • @JeanneDark yes and I don't think diamond mods will ever have any privileges in the collective, because SO team probably thought about it that the mods will think in a way and the admins might think in a completely different way, and since this is paid SO team don't want customers that are not satisfied of the product.. That's why the best thing to do is to remove reputation from articles.. Right now the article got deleted.. Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 16:31
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These sorts of "Articles" are the equivalent of Meta posts to main Q&A. While I am currently ambivalent on whether technical articles should garner Stack Overflow rep, I am adamant that meta articles should not, any more than Meta Stack Overflow posts do today.

So, what about having Meta Articles? These would have a similar look and feel to the current articles, but wouldn't be tied to rep. Moderators would have the authority to convert from one to the other in case of mistake or abuse.

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    The "no reputation" part is a good idea, but the UI should separate the two types of articles very clearly (for example not showing them together in article lists or search results) so that people looking for technical content are not distracted by meta discussions about the collective, and vice versa.
    – Marijn
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 20:42
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    I'm all for this, I think it would more or less satisfy all involved parties. Way more succinct than my answer too, which isn't at all a bad thing lol
    – zcoop98
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 20:56
  • Yes, it is a good idea to separate meta content from real content. Commented Jul 4, 2021 at 13:26
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The former article in question isn't a teething problem - it represents exactly what can be expected from a corporate extension of a community site.

Companies like Google don't think in terms of "how can we contribute to Stack Overflow...", they think in terms of "how can we use this to our advantage", which includes a nothing-to-lose approach.

I'm not saying that there won't ever be collectives overseen internally by people who are familiar with and respect the way Stack Overflow works, but in that event, I question the added benefit it provides over say, a tag.

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