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Note: This is the first in a series of questions about Articles in Collectives.

About Articles on Collectives

When we introduced Collectives on Stack Overflow, we also introduced a new content type: Articles. At the time, we made a calculated decision to not drop a set of guidelines for articles on the community at the same time, because our preference was the guidelines that we set would be influenced by real life - we intended to watch how the community treated articles, and watch the response, and then come forward with a draft of some guidelines that matched that reality.

Spoiler alert: As it turned out, this was probably not the best way to introduce the feature. We had the best of intentions, but it didn't work out. Lesson learned, note taken.

What now?

I'm here to take another run at getting to some guidelines. Over the next few days and weeks, I hope that we can have a conversation about articles and what guidelines we can put around them. We've done some staff work on this internally (including talking to our clients to hear their motivations and needs, and now we're also talking to you here to be sure that we're building something that's of value to the community), and I'll be referring to all of those conversations to ensure that we're taking a balanced approach toward this. This is your chance to weigh in and help craft the guidelines. In addition to me, you'll probably see comments from some of the Community staff, and from some of the researchers who have been working on this feature, and no doubt from the product folks that are deeply invested in making this a useful feature.

I envision this as a bit of a guided conversation: I'll ask some questions, look for answers and comments, and attempt to summarize it as we go. I'll propose some language, we can iterate on it, and we can land on the final language.

Potential article types

For context setting, articles are currently only able to be submitted by certain users. However, an upcoming release will include a tool that allows community members to draft and submit articles for inclusion in a collective. We’re currently on track to release that this quarter (please read this with the usual caveats…. unforeseen complications, etc).

So far, we've identified two types of potential articles that are a fit for the Collectives product (and several that are not, one of which I'll mention explicitly below):

  • The first type that we think is a fit is a how-to guide, which provides step-by-step guidance for using a technology or set of technologies to complete a task or achieve a desired outcome. We're thinking of these like recipes, larger and more holistic than a single Q and A (and could be drawn from several Answers).

  • The second is a knowledge article, which explores a technical topic by sharing the process, data, and reasoning that led to a particular approach or decision. This is content that is more evergreen and may be more theoretical than a how-to guide. They may be used for things like comparing technical solutions or implementations and best practices.

A formulation that seems to work to know the difference here is that where How-to Guides are "This is how I did this thing", Knowledge Articles are "This is why I did the thing this way."

A third type, which I am taking off the table here, is announcements. We are rethinking how we would approach a feature like announcements at some time in the future.

For the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to ask that we keep responses narrowly constrained to the questions being posed (and don't worry, you'll have a chance to pose your own questions and I have no doubt that opinions will be aired, but I'd like them to be germane to the topic so that we don't all have to do a collective context switch to read and follow them).

Questions to you

So our first set of questions to you is:

  • What have we missed?
  • Do you have feedback on the purpose of the first two Article types mentioned above?
  • What use cases could you see these first two Article types being useful in?
  • What use cases do you feel they could be detrimental in?
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    Related from the community's initiative: What are the quality standards for articles?
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 10:02
  • 23
    "Spoiler alert: As it turned out, this was probably not the best way to introduce the feature. We had the best of intentions, but it didn't work out. Lesson learned, note taken." - 👍 Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 10:05
  • 3
    @AndrewT. - thanks for the link. I even had a note to myself to include that and i still missed doing it.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 10:16
  • 18
    Remove all articles and collectives, so that we get free of any option
    – nbk
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 10:49
  • 29
    third type, which I am taking off the table here, is announcements - please simply take them off the table entirely. Or call them what they are - advertisements. Please, please, for the love of all things sacred, do not make them valid articles. If you really care about the community - just do not, period. Then we can probably bear the other two ones.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 11:05
  • 8
    IMO it'll be hard to manage this. I see Articles as the only value proposition of having a Collective, in terms of returns on visibility and promotion. So the temptation to add spammy content to Articles will be sky-high. It will also lead to conflict and confusion when you will ask them to please don't spam but literally what other value is there in having your own personal blog on Stack Overflow? You started with two organizations (Google and Gitlab) that don't need to push it, but who knows about others. And once they pay, are you going to forgo the income when they cross the line?
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 11:15
  • 28
    The main problem with collectives is the contradiction with the slogan "It's built and run by you" -- if the community can't curate the content and ensure a certain quality, then it simply is incompatible with this motto. Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 11:23
  • 1
    @OlegValter Maybe some can. I cannot bear the endorsements on users and post that's infiltrating the entire site. This Question is narrowly scoped to not consider taking that off the table :(
    – Scratte
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 11:25
  • 11
    Are articles still tied to Collectives? If yes, I'm not sure I have a lot of interest in helping to develop that feature. If however, articles (minus announcements) were for everyone like Q&A, that would probably change things. Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 11:31
  • 4
    To be completely honest, I forgot collectives existed. It just seemed like a place for people to pat themselves on the back, at least that's how I interpreted the announcement. I thought the whole thing was removed already - is it used by many people? Has it proven its worth? Just curious. Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 14:28
  • 10
    "Lesson learned, note taken." Sounds like the lesson from SO Documentation. And maybe some other side projects to date. I wonder when the learning will stick, or when the note will be kept... Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 21:58
  • 5
    "At the time, we made a calculated decision to not drop a set of guidelines for articles on the community at the same time [...]". One of the banes of the SO Docs project (as per many of us in the community) was stubborn refusal of the company to provide guidance. Is it Documentation? Is it Examples? Is it How-Tos? That together with the rep free-for-all greatly helped turn the project into a dumpster fire. I'm seeing the same thing again: a feature that doesn't fit Q&A forced on the community with no guidelines and questionable moderation options. Except now it's also spam. Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 23:23
  • 2
    The company doesn't have to remember all its blunders, but with most of the Great Old Ones gone there aren't many other options short of asking the community who do remember and will gladly help out if asked. But that's not really how things work these days. Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 23:31
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    Yes, you are, once again after bad decisions have been repeated :) We can't help the company not repeat blunders if we're only involved in damage control. But let it be clear that none of my gripe is with individual employees here. Your presence and concern is much appreciated. But higher management (who make decisions to implement spam to the detriment of the Q&A platform) and the company "machine" in general are a different story. Commented Oct 7, 2021 at 5:07
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    "This particular lesson is different from any other that I've seen referenced before, but maybe you know stuff that I don't." It would probably help to mention what the learnt lesson is. Is it to consult the community much earlier or simply to not develop features without good ideas how to use them and or something else? The text really doesn't say what the exact lesson learnt is, so people might jump to conclusions. Commented Oct 7, 2021 at 6:41

11 Answers 11

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This is a list of some of the themes that emerged from this question and its answers. Please note that this list was compiled by Philippe, and I'm posting it so that we can pin it to the top for visibility. If you have questions or suggested additions or changes, he's the guy you want to quibble with.

Themes that emerged as a result of this question and answers

  • Could become very difficult to manage
  • Temptation to add spammy content is high
  • Community can’t curate the content. Note: Community will be able to exercise some curation over the content, though it’s unclear yet what form that will take. We’re still building tools for this.
  • Unclear what the company wants Collectives to be
  • Minimum standards for articles are unclear
  • Writing for this audience is very different from a corporate blog
  • Why are we doing this in the first place?
  • How do articles interact with / integrate with Q&A
  • How-to’s and Knowledge articles exist in other places already
  • What is the role of the community in curation?
  • Some articles could maybe have defined structures as suggestion in the interface: for example, problem statement, prior research (what else exists about that topic), key idea, bulk of content (realization and details), discussion (how well is the problem solved), summary and outlook.
  • Articles would only allow to vote on the usefulness of the whole article (unless somebody comes up with a more fine-grained voting mechanism). Reputation would also be difficult to attribute.
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    Thank you for posting this, Rosie! One teeny-tiny question, though - why did Philippe not post this if they are the one who compiled it and will be responding to feedback?
    – 0Valt
    Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 13:43
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    @OlegValter Only accepted answers by other users will be pinned at the top -- there was an impressive demonstration of this during the meta tyre fire when they had to mess with their database to change the post owner Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 13:47
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    @samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz thanks, that explanation is exactly what I was looking for - the "MSO is still pinned" failed to register with me
    – 0Valt
    Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 13:59
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    Is this an unordered set? :) I'd put "why are we even doing this" as the first question that needs to be answered, the rest are supplementary to answering this one
    – 0Valt
    Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 17:07
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    @OlegValter - This list is the very best example of a totally random and unordered set. It's things that I saw in the order that I saw them, and I frequently don't start at the top and work my way down, and I'm interrupted a lot, so it's all over the place.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 17:09
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    I also very purposely don't want to order it by importance or anything similar because then we'll have quibbles over whether something is number 13 or 14 on the list....
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 17:10
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    I do think, though, that the first thing we need to answer is whether or not it is needed at all and why it is needed. The rest can be just as unordered as they are now :) But clarifying what this is supposed to be about is a prerequisite to moving on to details
    – 0Valt
    Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 17:12
  • 3
    I agree that is a priority question - whether it's the first thing or not, I'm not sure yet. I'm also waiting on input from a couple of other folks that's necessary for the purpose of that discussion, so it may be put teed up a touch later, depending on how soon they get stuff to me.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 17:14
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    "and I'm posting it so that we can pin it to the top for visibility" If you get this FR implemented, you won't need to use such workarounds ;)
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 18:28
  • 2
    @41686d6564 - it looks like Des is aware of that FR, and she's the right person for that. :-)
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 21:05
  • 1
    @Philippe that's nice to hear, thank you. Does this mean that further discussions will be deferred until you get the responses? Because I really think that making the "why" of the whole feature the first question to be asked (not counting this discussion as it does touch on the "why") would be, firstly, a gesture of goodwill to the community and, secondly, a good practice - I cannot imagine starting to build a feature before defining what it is is for in software development (well, it happens - and tends to result in disasters).
    – 0Valt
    Commented Oct 8, 2021 at 4:15
  • 2
    @OlegValter - I'm talking to folks about that today. If there are discussions that we think can be had that are not intertwined with this issue, we may attempt to do so. But as of right now, my gut feel is to say that I think it's unlikely that I will go to the next topic until things are ready for that. (And i hasten to say that I didn't mean to imply that they hadn't defined that piece internally - they did, long before building - this is a matter of them getting things to me and me having time to read and ask informed questions, for instance.)
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Oct 8, 2021 at 11:46
  • 1
    it is very good that it is happening). Thus I find it very important (and I think many here will concur with that) is to halt anything until we have a clear understanding why we are doing articles in the first place with a clear value proposal to the community - think of it in terms of a sales pitch. Clearly the initial announcement failed at that, and as time goes on, it becomes more and more apparent that not only that, but also brings a lot of additional concerns and issues to the table that are only going to get worse when the number of collectives increases and/or when [2/3]
    – 0Valt
    Commented Oct 8, 2021 at 14:14
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    @OlegValter - funny you should mention the value prop of Articles. We were discussing TODAY how to present that (sequencing, etc). That was literally my first meeting this morning :)
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Oct 9, 2021 at 5:54
  • 1
    @Philippe glad to hear that :) waiting for the results!
    – 0Valt
    Commented Oct 9, 2021 at 9:56
64

I'll answer your question with a question: what does Stack Overflow want articles to be?

Are they supposed to become Documentation revamped, now curated by the owner of a tech stack? Why would an organization opt to recreate their knowledge base on Stack Overflow, as opposed to, say, their own documentation site?

I mean: the reason I stopped using Twitter, is that I followed tech bloggers on it who suddenly started making posts about diabetes, child adoption and other social causes. Interesting nonetheless, but not what I signed up for. It was apparently not a replacement for my trusty old RSS feeds.

LinkedIn has gone the same undefined way of Twitter anyway, everyone can post what they like, be it job changes, pictures of lunch or party invites. The audience chooses who to follow, but I don't think that works here.

So do you want organizations to use articles as a news feed? Like to announce new framework versions? Or as a newsletter or blog, with articles like "Did you know you could..."? Or invites to (paid, free or other) conferences? Speakers they seek for said conferences? Examples or use cases that don't really fit their documentation?

Either way you gotta monitor that they don't devolve into spam or off-topic (by whatever definition of on-topic you want to handle).

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    "what does Stack Overflow want articles to be?" From the initial release I'd say: something that companys want to pay for with money and time and users want to read. Basically everything within the intersection of both and the reason for doing that on SO would be the large user and visitor base of the platform, the brand awareness and the features of the software running the platform. Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 16:16
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    "I mean: the reason I stopped using Twitter, is that I followed tech bloggers on it who suddenly started making posts about diabetes, child adoption and other social causes. - I feel you. It's not that I really mind people sharing their thoughts on every day life things but... well it is not often that I can find a whole lot of agreement with their views on things outside of the technical realm and that clash hurts my perception of such people. Twitter makes it impossible to keep the personal and the professional separated. This is how off-topicness breaks the internet.
    – Gimby
    Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 14:50
  • @Trilarion: I think StackExchange doesn't care much if "users want to read", as long as "companys want to pay for with money and time". Commented Oct 7, 2021 at 6:41
  • 1
    @EricDuminil Well, companies won't pay anymore if user won't read. That's why they are asking here basically: "What would you find useful?". I guess in the end it's always a compromise. Nobody will get exactly what he/she wants. Commented Oct 7, 2021 at 6:44
39

As a veteran of the Documentation debacle, I'm not sure SO ever solved one of the key problems that plagued that project: minimal standards.

We struggle with that in Q&A enough as it is. Some folks see some topics as "too simple" and prefer only "advanced" or practical programming questions. We've never had that as a standard, however. If the question is inside the site (i.e. on-topic) it's valid.

Docs, however, had the opposite problem. because anyone could create a topic/entry/whatever. Docs rapidly became bloated because we incentivized it with rep it launched without... well, as Shog9 pointed out

Reputation was utterly broken at the launch of the beta. No sugar-coating it; the rep system in place at the start of the public beta was completely unworkable, and fell apart within days. What'd we learn from this? Exactly what we'd suspected since literally the private beta of Stack Overflow back in '08: that awarding reputation for editing is really, really problematic. Which is why we never ventured to touch that hornets' nest in Q&A; it would have broken everything. With Docs, we had the chance to test it, and fix it. (I'm not at all convinced that we have it right just yet, but we have made a LOT of progress)

If you're patting yourself on the back right now for knowing ahead of time that the rep system was broken... So am I; it makes it hard to type. Also, it's a bogus attitude - neither of us knew it would fail, we just made an educated guess - now we have actual experimental evidence, copious detail on exactly how it failed. If we ever want to make concrete improvements, the latter is infinitely more useful than the former. I'm sure Jon and Kevin and Vasudha have a long list of other failures - and what we've learned from them, and what we're gonna do to avoid them in the future.

It's encouraging to see some obvious lessons learned from Docs being applied. Collectives learned to be more limited at first (no "Collectives all the things" mess) and to not let everyone under the sun post Articles to get rep. But the underlying problem still remains: what is the minimal standard for an article? Clearly not this, but what about promotional Articles?

We’re pleased to announce gcloud storage, a new set of Cloud Storage commands in Cloud SDK that includes a new approach to parallelization that can accelerate both small and large data migrations. While gsutil cp remains effective, gcloud storage avoids the tuning gsutil requires for certain large transfer scenarios

This one has been poorly received and understandably so. It reads like a press release. Given the newness of the user, it's likely they have little or no experience with Stack Overflow. And since only Staff can moderate it at present, there's no way for Mods to curate anything either.

The minimal standard here should be as follows:

  1. Articles need to complement Q&A, not compete with it. Sometimes you need a good canonical answer for duplicate purposes, but sometimes we shoehorn articles into questions, where it might not be received well (I see this a lot as a moderator when some company tries to "seed" their product tag with questions that are answered with de-facto articles). This is where Articles can fill a real gap in Q&A.
  2. Articles should not be Docs 3.0 (I helped feedback on the unreleased Docs 2.0). This article is a prime example of the "Docsificiation" of Articles. We do not need, nor do we want, a rehash of the official documentation. That's been stated elsewhere, but there's nothing that has clearly been done to prevent it either.
  3. Articles should strive to offer practical examples whenever possible (something in-house docs might not cover). This is the only good Article to date (not a high bar to clear when there's three articles in total). Frank's Article is the only one that seems to stick the landing here, but Frank is also a long-time SO user. He knows what good Q&A looks like.

Other questions that need some thought in this vein would be

  • How does the Community request an article? If I see a need for an article, how can I get them to write one?
  • If I think I can write a good Article, how do I submit one for review and approval?
  • If an Article needs an Edit, how do I submit one? (protip: if you're a long time SO user, you can actually edit the Articles as-is if you know the structure of the site, but shhh, it's a secret)
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    +1 for the secret but unfortunately, I'm not a long time SO user.
    – Ghost
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 14:53
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    I hate to bring a sour note to this (as I otherwise agree with the answer's points), but can you honestly say that limiting articles to recognized members only was a conscious choice and did not naturally follow from the central idea of this whole "Collectives" thing - that is to give paying companies controlled spaces? Because this is the only thing I see behind this artificial limitation
    – 0Valt
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 15:12
  • 3
    @OlegValter It's a Beta to that end. And I rather like having it be a limited one. Are mistakes being made? Yes. But, as Shog9 noted in the post I quoted, it's a good thing to fail and learn from those mistakes. Dealing with this when there's only three articles is vastly preferential to dealing with it when there's 3000
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 15:14
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    "If an Article needs an Edit, how do I submit one? (protip: if you're a long time SO user, you can actually edit the Articles as-is if you know the structure of the site, but shhh, it's a secret)" - I thought they patched that backdoor, all the endpoints I'm aware of (which previously did work) just lead to 404s. Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 15:17
  • 3
    @Machavity - oh, I do not mean that they should've gone with this guns blazing, I am just highly unsure that this "modesty" is an actual concern about the feature well-being and by now am pretty convinced that all community-related parts of the Collectives and, by extension, articles were an afterthought at best. Why do you think even mods (unless you know something I don't) are extremely limited in moderating those too?
    – 0Valt
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 15:20
  • 1
    @Nick Maybe they did. I didn't follow Collectives that closely. I know they patched it to allow CMs to delete Articles
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 15:23
  • 8
    Articles probably shouldn't have any effect on SO reputation. It doesn't make sense that you'd gain privileges to moderate content on the SO Q&A platform by contributing to something outside of it. Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 15:39
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    I mean... i fail to see how docs was used as a learning tool for this... the same mistake occurred. Articles were launched with no clearly defined goals, with the intent to build guidelines based on how the community used/reacted to them. Exactly like documentation. Yes, at least the rep disaster wasn't brought forward, however that was only prevented by not letting the community use it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 15:42
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    "minimal standards" Some of the existing articles are ok with regard to standards, it looks rather like most of potential Article content creators are too scared or not interested in contributing currently. There is such a small number of articles existing, I'm not even sure that relevant conclusion can be drawn from them. "How does the Community request an article? If I see a need for an article, how can I get them to write one?" We could maybe vote on requests, like for example voting on questions in Q&A. Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 16:04
  • "If I think I can write a good Article, how do I submit one for review and approval?" Not sure what you want to hear there? There will be a button somewhere and you'll probably press it? You probably have to be member of the collective and there will be a review queue for that somewhere. Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 16:08
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    "If an Article needs an Edit, how do I submit one?" The current suggested way is giving feedback either privately or publicly (I do publicly because I don't want other to waste their time and give the same feedback). The feedback could contain a description of a suggested edit. After the edit, the feedback can be removed. Simply suggesting an edit like for those below 2k rep would probably be easier though. Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 16:11
  • "I fail to see how docs was used as a learning tool for this" -- at least they did not bring back these super-distracting blinking blue dots from documentation. Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 16:36
  • 1
    "If the question is inside the site scope (i.e. on-topic) it's valid" it's interesting that the site scope explicitly includes "practical programming questions" and this answer seems to forget about it when it goes into their arguments. That is the minimum standards that SO has set: a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development.
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 17:22
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    FWIW - we're releasing an article tool (probably Q4) that will allow community members to write, edit, and submit articles (to answer your bullet points at the bottom). Thanks for the detailed feedback - very very useful.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 17:29
27

What have we missed?

An answer to this question: why are we doing this?

Stack Exchange in scope and in context, is a Q&A platform. The platform's bread and butter has always been Q&A. Adding this to a platform that is traditionally Q&A should also mean that there are some strong and easily identifiable synergies with its key strengths.

Back when Documentation was launched, I could see those strong synergies - people do ask a lot of questions in regards to how to use a technology or how to use a framework, and there are a lot of subject matter experts that lurk around on the site.

Even though its release was a bit ham-fisted and a lot of the warnings or issues we pointed out to the company were - for lack of a point of reference - ignored - it still had a lot of promise and value. The content was at least in-line with the kind of Q&A that we dealt with, and while we should've been a whole lot more strict with people just posting simple guides that they found from somewhere else on the Internet, the synergies were at least there.

With Collectives, I don't see those synergies. They give me the perception that they're an anomaly unto Q&A as a whole thing.

Do you have feedback on the purpose of the first two Article types mentioned above?

One caveat I want to give to this entire thing is a lesson I've learned over the course of my career: it is more efficient to specialize rather than generalize. Specialization is what the rest of the network accomplishes very well; generalization has never been its strength.

The two articles that you're looking at are how-to and knowledge. Explaining how to do things is...kinda Googleable already. Dev.to already exists as a way for people to share how-to articles. I can understand that wanting to eat Dev.to's lunch can be tempting, but this is not Stack Exchange's specialization.

Users on Stack Overflow writing a how-to document is still some document that comes from somewhere else on the Internet. I highlighted that the ur-example that GitLab did was still seemingly brought over from their own site, which begets the question of, "why are we doing this?"

A knowledge article would be essentially the same thing. There's no way to ensure that people wouldn't just...bring those over from their own blogs or something like that. And sure, you could argue that this gives them exposure, but I'm still struggling with why an alternative platform that essentially specializes in this wouldn't be a better fit rather than a Q&A platform.

23

Before drafting guidelines for articles... we kind of need to know where they fit within the Q&A structure. Why do they exist, what problem are they meant to solve, who are they meant to help, and if they don't fit within the Q&A structure, maybe the guidelines shouldn't pigeonhole it into being solutions in search of problems and instead push more in the direction of things that Q&A doesn't solve.

Currently I can't see articles as being anything other than blog posts. They're either presenting a tutorial, a solution in search of a problem, or a light form of documentation. All three of these can be useful on their own, but they also all three are in direct conflict with the core Q&A structure.

If someone were to ask a question on SO that an article existed for, what is the path forward? Closing it as a duplicate of an article isn't really on the table given that it's behind a paid partnership that may not exist forever. One could certainly answer it with a summation of the article and then link to the article as a source, however, at that point the article has failed to serve a purpose. The user who needed it didn't find it, and the user who knew it existed couldn't simply point the user to it as a resolution to the Q&A.

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    This. I fail to see articles as anything other than a self-answer Q&A post either without the Q or with the Q and the A in a single post. Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 16:34
  • 2
    As an example, the announcement article was highly unpopular. however, that was a great example of an article that doesn't fit within the Q&A structure. If it was understood that articles were for that purpose, it likely wouldn't have received so much pushback (and articles likely wouldn't need voting functionality if that's what they were for)
    – Kevin B
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 16:43
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    @Nick ... like self-answered Q&As, but without the "risk" that someone else will post an alternative answer Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 16:45
  • @samcarter_is_at_topanswers.xyz :face_desk: Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 16:53
  • 2
    @Nick Please first place a pillow on the desk :) Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 16:54
23

I'm a bit outside the SOverse - but I think the core problem here is something that plagues tech generally - we have great solutions, that sometimes look for a problem.

So for articles - I'd ask myself two things, when and how they can do 'better' than conventional Q&A and how best to have the strengths of the two media together.

I suspect part of the weakness right now, with the few articles that are posted is - they're getting treated like blogs. Now, it's not ideal, but bridging that gap would be useful.

On the site user end - I guess an essential goal, often forgotten is helping people find answers - it isn't just enough to write.

Right now they're treated essentially as stand-alone blogs. We have how-tos and announcements, sure, but the fundamental issue is - even with 'successfully' written articles, they're not quite tying well to the rest of the network.

Part of the problem is, really, writing for this audience is very different from writing for a corporate blog (something that SE's historically had issues with. You'd find some content is more popular, but not quite doing as well as SO's site should reach.

So let's talk about better writing for the SE crowd. Many of the articles are essentially knowledge base articles with little or no relationship to network content.

How we can relate these articles to network content is probably something missing. Most of these articles don't relate to the network at all - nearly all the external links are somewhere else, and there's no 'clean' path to get from Q&A to an article and vice versa. They barely take into account tags.

Basically, they're almost as lost as the orphan tag wiki page most moderators don't know about.

The vote counts seem to indicate... 15-30 active users, and maybe a thousand views... so y'all need a little more visibility to thrive.

I think that while it's a handful of users - the comments are very instructive about the issues with specific articles.

Looking at current articles

From the GitLab Collective

This seems well-received - it's essentially half of a 'classic' Q&A pair, it's well-formatted except for minor quibbles and while it doesn't link back to the network, it stands alone very well. One would presume it was written specifically as an SE article. This is a successful one on its own merits. It's hardly got any attention by SO standards though.

From the Google Cloud collective

Faster Cloud Storage transfers using the gcloud command-line

This is... essentially a press release. So I'd ask the usual questions - who is it written for, and whether it would fit the SE format well. I'd say the voting says no. Now, if someone went "Oh, hell, tough crowd, how do I win them over?" - it might be really nice to talk about questions in the network where this might be a great alternative to - maybe something here?

While I guess we're not big enough to tailor articles or announcements - I think it would go a long way towards better articles.

And... How-tos are popular

This one is another example of doing it right on its own merits: Listen for authentication state in Android. It's even a top hit on Google Search. It's well-formatted, solves a problem and... doesn't really loop back to anything on the network.

And the last one I see right now is How to make sql_mode empty on Cloud SQL.

Looking at the author's posts on SE, she seems to know her way around Q&A fine - so... this is literally a knowledge base article posted as is - which is a little disappointing.

'Good' how-tos seem to talk about a problem, and how to solve them. We don't get to the actual problem to be solved until midway through the article. It doesn't quite respect SE Markdown.

From the Go collective

Nothing. It's a useful data point too! It’s worth considering what sort of articles would be useful for a language over a tool or a service.


Looking at all this

The basics

  • an understanding that content that 'fits' into the way we do things work better
  • Folks appreciate good formatting and a writing style that fits Q&A.
  • Articles apparently aren't press releases or knowledge bases
  • Stuff that works elsewhere might not work well here.

The 'nice to have'

  • having a more 'direct' appreciation and awareness of Q&A features in the articles, whether it’s explicitly linking out to tags, or 'borrowing' Q&A posts of yore for examples

The "DADDY I WANT A PONY"

  • Helping people understand and write for the audience here.

The 'Big question'

What fundamentally is the problem we're trying to solve here, and how do we make it both work alongside and augment Q&A?

We have tried to get something similar in the past - and there's a critical point there

I'd quote Jon here (and he seems a good person to weigh in here)

Finally, our research showed that while a lot of developers were dissatisfied, the current state of programming documentation is not universally broken the way Q&A was when Stack Overflow started. In particular, we heard over and over that Stack Overflow has become de facto documentation for many technologies. As many of you pointed out, Stack Overflow is already good enough at providing documentation of obscure features. Even when considering just the company's mission of helping programmers “learn, share their knowledge and build their careers”, Documentation isn’t the most efficient use of resources.

What universally broken thing are we trying to fix - both for us as users and your corporate partners? Right now, I feel like you have two parties talking at each other - partners trying to understand what the best way of using articles is, and users trying to nudge them in various ways.

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    As an aside, I talk about network content - while articles are an SO thing, there's a few communities that might have relevant content, even with the current early collectives clients. Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 11:53
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    You say that the Gitlab article has hardly gotten attention by SO standards. Could you expand on that a little? I'm not sure I understand. When we compare the traffic on the article to traffic on questions posted the same day, the article blows the questions out of the water. Am I misunderstanding what you say?
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Oct 7, 2021 at 12:25
  • I was looking at votes and views - when I checked about ... 2 minutes ago - I saw 285 views and 25 votes - which seems patry. Admittedly I'm unfamiliar with the normal on SO but - but I somehow feel like it should be more. And its the best example of the sort of content that a how to can be Commented Oct 7, 2021 at 12:32
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    When we compare that to questions submitted about the same time, we actually see the article walking away with it. I'm actually seeing almost 700 views for that article, so I must be looking at something different...
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Oct 7, 2021 at 12:38
  • Now I'm seeing 657 and 15 votes so I'm clearly ... a little confused, or was looking at the wrong thing. and I didn't have any other SO posts opened on this browser today... So confused twice. And apparently overestimating traffic on SO by some magnitude. Commented Oct 7, 2021 at 12:43
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Your intended use cases as how-to-guide, tutorial, knowledge article, white-paper, handbook, .. do sound plausible to me if your goal was to build a library of knowledge like Wikipedia. I would say let's try it out (here or elsewhere), but:

  • Don't forget that this is and has always been a collaborative effort. Therefore it's better to include all users on the platform in the creating and editing process (which raises the concern of how to distribute reputation). How many good articles are written by only a single person? For high quality articles I would expect even more collaboration than usual here to take place, instead of less.
  • Don't repeat content that already exists elsewhere (Q&A or documentation), rather link to it and only summarize it. Otherwise it will become a nightmare to maintain.
  • Think a lot about delineation from normal Q&A but also integration with existing Q&A. The scope is the obvious difference, but apart from that there is a lot to think about like how to integrate alternative views in articles. Reputation and voting are other issues.

If you see articles as Q&A but with a wider scope and more tightly integrated answers, then it's maybe something like meta Q&A, i.e. a structure on top of Q&A. You could for example collect problems that are usually not possible to ask because they are too widely scoped and basically break them down into a list (or network) of smaller Q&A that do the real work and solve the problem if combined. Articles would then only be something like recipes for applying a number of Q&A to solve more complete problems.

But I'm not sure actually that Stack Overflow is the right place for it. The whole voting and reputation system works really well on small, isolated problems, but maybe not so much on larger, connected problems. For that maybe Stack Overflow is not the best platform and something like Wikipedia's approach or something else entirely is more suited.

For example, it's not clear how to vote if one agrees with parts of an article and disagrees with other parts of it. With articles being longer than Q&A that can easily happen.

You could maybe try first by collecting ideas for articles (how-to-guides, ...). Just a few examples of the back of my head; I haven't really thought about them for a longer time:

  • How do I analyze Twitter messages with a trained machine learning model?
  • How do I make and run an app on Amazon web services that can create a small social network?
  • How do I build a rocket and fly to the moon?

A minor thing that I also noticed and that Journeyman Geek mentions in another answer is the missing clear indication of the topic of an article. Even if the scope is wider, it still helps a lot if the scope of the article, i.e. the problem that is solved by it, is clearly noted at the beginning and summarized and discussed in the end. I wanted to emphasize that too because that hasn't always been the case for existing articles.

Some articles could maybe have the following structure: problem statement, prior research (what else exists about that topic), key idea, bulk of content (realization and details), discussion (how well is the problem solved), summary and outlook.

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    I rather like this suggested structure. I think it would be great guidance for people to follow when writing articles.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 12:16
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    One of failures of Documentation was lack of structure. This will inevitably happen with articles, too. Since they are part of Collectives supported by a company, Articles should support some additional tree like structure and company behind could easily define how it should be organized. It is easy to navigate few articles, if there is more it will become nightmare soon enough.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 15:47
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    I would remove reputation from articles and leave them as doc wikis, monitored by company or other experts in the field. Anyone could contribute, but content should be approved and verified.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 15:51
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    @DalijaPrasnikar "Articles should support some additional tree like structure.." We have tags. Surely it could be complemented by some kind of table of content thing. "doc wikis, monitored by company or other experts in the field" Would probably work but might be uninteresting. The beauty of Q&A is that everyone can participate, not just a selected few. Isn't an expert everyone who has answers? Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 15:55
  • @Trilarion Tags are not enough for that purpose. There is no point in articles otherwise. They are supposed to be some "How to" or Introductory guides. Those are most useful when you can easily locate them not through search, but structured TOC. We already have unstructured Q/A part. Companies and their employees are free to contribute with their knowledge and earn reputation outside articles. Frankly, I don't see much point in articles, expect maybe providing some content that is by default off topic for SO and could be otherwise useful outside official documentation.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 19:06
  • @DalijaPrasnikar I remember that the Warlords for documentation attempt argued that search engines bring the content to the reader. I think that this is still the future (otherwise there wouldn't be awesome lists on Github with thousands of stars). So, yes, a curated TOC (could by itself be an article) would be needed. Commented Oct 5, 2021 at 20:36
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    Search engines will bring some people to the articles (or documentation), but with documentation or with articles you also have a "learning" moment when you are not only looking for solutions to a specific problem, but you want to know what some technology can do and how can you use it. To gain such overview you need structure. If we are supposed to have many articles without additional structure then I don't see why we need them and what benefit they can bring comparing to existing Q/A.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 7:51
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Let me answer your "What have we missed" question in detail, specifically regarding the part where you want to "[allow] community members to draft and submit articles for inclusion in a collective" in a future release:

As a preface, you were not around for the SO Docs project. You probably already found this out from a thousand other posts but let me just say again that it was a huge and entirely forseeable shitshow. There were two main problems with the feature itself - anybody could create a documentation topic with minimal oversight, and everybody had a huge incentive to do so (reputation gain). Additionally, there was a meta-problem of SO pressing ahead with the feature and ignoring community feedback or not even gathering it in the first place.

It seems like nobody involved with articles has learned much from docs, as everything you've presented thus far has the exact same problems. You want to let everybody in a collective create articles, and incentivize doing so by rewarding article upvotes with reputation. Only this time around, the feature rolled out with basically no quality control mechanisms (barely acceptable because it is also only available to a handful of users right now) and it's unclear how quality control is even supposed to work because the communication from SO is lacking.

You say members "submit articles for inclusion", which hints that there might be some review stage(s) before the article becomes visible to everybody. If so, that would be a step in the right direction - but you should involve the community by describing the planned process in excruciating detail in a separate meta post and listening to feedback. If I'm just misinterpreting that part of your post and there is no such pre-publication review, then you should add such a process with the highest urgency and involve the community in its creation. If you open up article creation to the general public without a thorough approval process, you will be overrun by a mountain of garbage on day 1.

Besides the quality control before publication, there are various open aspects regarding the quality control after publication, which will be neccessary to deal with quality issues that slipped through the approval process, and to update content as information becomes outdated. For example, will the community be able to edit articles? Will there be a community process for deletion, or only moderator flags, or only the current crappy feedback dialog? Will there be duplicates, or a locked state similar to closed questions? Again, please involve the community in answering these questions.

Furthermore, the part where documentation topics could be created by anyone without enough oversight had three distinct subproblems:

  • Quality; there were posts that were just straight up bad or incorrect.
  • Duplication; both with other SO posts and with official resources.
  • Plagiarism; both from other SO posts and from elsewhere.

The only tool we have to address article quality right now are downvotes. This must be extended with at least editing and a deletion process. Editing and deletion can also be used for dealing with inter-SO duplicates (a dupe closure state could also be an option but question dupes are kept as signposts to answers of the target so the concept doesn't directly apply to articles). Last up is plagiarism and external dupes, and that's the really really hard thing to solve. With docs, we had people literally copypaste entire blog posts, tutorials, or official documentation pages into SO (or even copypaste other docs entries), often in violation of copyrights and licenses. The hard part is that identifying plagiarized content usually cannot be done on SO itself but involves searching google for text snippets from the post to find the source. Furthermore, without explicit instructions to check for plagiarism the issue would probably not even be on the radar for many reviewers.

Here's one aspect that applies to all three of the above problems: Their impact would be considerably lessened by removing the reputation incentive for creating an article. There's probably not too many users who would spend time plagiarizing external content or writing low-quality articles if they can't gain anything by doing so. You might think "but without a rep incentive, who would write articles?" - to which I would answer, if nobody wants to use your feature for any other motivation than gaining imaginary internet points, then you should probably just cancel it entirely. Removing rep from articles and not having any incentives at all would be way better if you want to optimize for article quality instead of quantity. Combined with a very tough approval process, getting an article submitted could be its own reward. If you are sure you need an additional incentive, giving out badges for highly upvoted articles (e.g. bronze/silver/gold at scores +10/+35/+100) would probably be more than enough. If you want to optimize for quantity, then the feature is already dead under a mountain of garbage.

Related to the last point: In the past SO failed to adequately consider adversarial users when planning new features. If you did not already do so, please find a tester or programmer with a suitably shrewd mindset and give them the task of coming up with ways to take advantage of the feature or to screw it up for everybody else. If you only look at the feature from the perspective of users with good intentions, then the internet will give you a quick reality check on release day.


TL;DR: It doesn't seem like many lessons were learned from the docs project. IMO, you need a thorough approval process that acts as a very tough gatekeeper for the feature and ensures that only the best of the best articles ever make it through. Then we can talk about guidelines for that process, as well as (probably similar but separate) guidelines for dealing with already published articles that are obsolete or outdated etc. Having a reputation incentive is also not a good idea as it optimizes for quantity instead of quality. Lastly, just scrapping articles entirely is also an option as right now there are not a lot of good reasons why SO needs such a feature.

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I thought a bit more about it and think I have discovered another angle to look at for the whole Article idea and I think it deserves its own answer.

One could surely just downsize Articles, remove the focus on how-to-guides and knowledge articles and just let the sponsoring companies post a mix of announcements, blog posts, news and views and maybe also technical content. In that case one could also leave out the voting and limit the feature to Collectives. It would be completely separated from normal Q&A. Let's call this the shallow content solution. Advantage is that the companies surely can and would provide such content, but unfortunately it might not be very interesting to read. All in all a viable solution, but may remain a fringe feature.

If however, you want to be a more ambitious, let's take a step back and compare Articles and Q&A:

  • Q&A allows to vote on small bits of content (how interesting is the question, which answer is the best).
  • Q&A allows to collaborate easily (questions can be edited, answers can be edited, new questions and new answers can be written at any time).
  • Q&A have a strong focus on small problems and doesn't deal well with larger problems.
  • All Q&As together of the platform are constantly changing (living).
  • Every Q&A or set of Q&As could always be converted to an Article (just merge the Q or Qs with some or all of the As and write some glue (frame) text around them and call it an Article).

And also:

  • Articles would only allow to vote on the usefulness of the whole article (unless somebody comes up with a more fine-grained voting mechanism). Reputation would also be difficult to attribute.
  • Articles do not allow to collaborate that easily (different views might not be easy to integrate, editors would have to really work together closely on a single text, currently there are not many features in the software to support collaboration on Articles).
  • Articles can and should have a wider focus on larger, more connected problems (and they could, apart maybe from some formatting problems like optimal size of included images or Articles could benefit from automatically generated table of contents, ...).
  • Articles would have to be updated too constantly in order to remain useful.
  • The question of how not to duplicate information between Articles and Q&A is unsolved.
  • Every Article could also be converted to a Q&A or a bunch of Q&As. Example: "How do I perform an external check on merge requests with Gitlab?" could probably also be a Q&A.

To summarize:

  • Articles cover larger topics and present them in a concise, structured way, which can be more useful to the reader looking for general information than searching within many Qs with many As. But they are also hard to create and maintain if the knowledge is changing and require lots of collaboration.
  • Q&A are agile can be created and answered and updated at very low costs, but lack the structure and connectivity.

What we ideally want, I think, is playing to the strength of each format and complement them with each other. My conclusions would therefore be:

  • Articles must be reserved for larger topics (even larger than the currently existing Article about external checks on merge requests in Gitlab), maybe even more high-level (and referring to Q&A for actual implementations).
  • Articles must be reserved for settled knowledge (i.e. more likely the often visited old question from 5-10 years before, kind of review like) or we need a way to really collaborate very efficiently on them so that they can always reflect state of the art.
  • If Articles cannot be integrated well with Q&A there is a high risk of duplication of content. Maybe there is a way to make Q&A and Articles more similar or if not and because the appetite for creating Articles seems to be relatively low so far, scraping Articles as dense content solution and going for a shallow content Articles version (see above) might be better
  • There is a demand for more connected content (tutorial, booklet like) but it's different from Q&A which is focused. Other providers may serve this need better. However, the obvious approach starting with Q&A and wanting to connect content would be something like Q&A link lists with some commentary. That may be an avenue to explore.
  • Another possibility would be to take settled, popular knowledge of SO and start writing larger, coherent texts out of them. However this may be a lot of effort and people might not be willing to do that. Writing good Q&A is already hard enough as it is. Also I somehow doubt this is what Stack Overflow or the companies sponsoring Collectives have in mind.
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    Trilarion, thanks for this. This is some very useful thinking. I find myself in agreement with you on most, if not all, of this.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Oct 6, 2021 at 12:18
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My big question is what content articles should contain (since many companies already have official documentation pages and/or company blogs and there's already a lot of content on the main Q&A site).

One part of this is that we need to decide what topics are acceptable to post about. I already proposed an on-topic guide of sorts for articles, so I won't repeat all of that here. I really would like to see some kind of on-topic guide adapted as part of this, though, so that people have clear guidance as to what topics they should write about.

One thing I point out in the linked answer is that there are some things that may work a lot better as articles than they do as Q&A. For example, one of the main problems with customer service questions on the main site is that we don't know the answer; on the other hand, someone who's verified to be affiliated with the company could potentially know that kind of thing. That being said, there are certain things that simply don't work well a Q&A that could work better as articles. (I won't pretend to list all of them here, but I'm pretty sure that they exist).

One thing that's common for those of us who have participated in Beta site launches: sometimes you need to try stuff to see how it works on the site. If there's something that we're not sure about (like developer-centric app store information), maybe we just need to try it and see how it works.

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Owned content versus community moderation?!

Community contributions was mention the question, and this got me thinking about the broader topic or problem of owned content versus community moderation (or community ownership).

Stack Overflow is built on community moderation. The community writes posts, edits posts, votes on posts and closes/deletes posts.

Articles, on the other hand, seem to be built with ownership in mind: an organisation will own a collective and they'll either write articles themselves, or decide which articles get posted and how they get edited (or they decide who can approve articles or edits, which probably isn't something that many organisations would do lightly, so they may mostly keep it to their employees).

This isn't a problem in itself, but it does raise some potential problems:

  • What if the owners lose interest, or feel it's not worth the effort to maintain? Do all their articles just get removed, or fade into outdatedness?
  • What about organisations who don't want to contribute here? Do we just not get articles on that topic?
  • Where do things that have no owner fit in? Google owns the Go collective, which may already point to a problem of an organisation being considered the owner of a language. What about something like C++? Can we have a collective for that? If so, who's going to own it? And if not, does it make sense that some languages can have collectives and others can't, just because some are explicitly backed by an organisation?
  • What if owners don't agree with "good" articles and edits?
    • If necessary, answers on Stack Overflow wouldn't shy away from saying something like "this is a bug and you probably need to do this hacky thing to get around that". Some organisations, on the other hand, may not want to have that prominently featured in their articles, even when such information would be greatly relevant to and useful in the article and the internet as a whole. But maybe this isn't actually a big enough problem to worry about.
    • You may also have cases where a useful article gets rejected because they don't feel it fits what they're going for here.
    • At the very least, you're probably going to have wildly different levels of quality and standards for formatting across different collectives (this also applies to posts on Stack Overflow to a fair degree, but community editing and voting does tend towards some sort of cohesion, at least).

One might say all of the above fall within the rights of the relevant organisations and that's not a problem, which is fair enough. It just doesn't feel quite in line with the whole "library of detailed answers to every question" idea of Stack Overflow (a "library of detailed articles"?). It would lean more towards a platform that allows companies to post nothing more than whatever they want to post, however they want to post it. At least within the allowed guidelines: if they find those too restrictive, they may choose not to contribute at all.

This isn't so much a problem with an individual user on the Q&A (no individual user needs to contribute here), but it may be quite a problem with the "owner" of a language or whatever that covers a large subset of potential articles.

This also relates to the topic of what you want articles to be, that many other answers touch on (not only what they'd actually contain, but also which niche they're trying to fill, and how effective that would be if you're only limited to a small subset of potential programming topics).

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