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Earlier this week we launched Collectives™ on Stack Overflow and shared our research behind building this product. As promised we’re holding a TownHall AMA today on Meta to address the different questions. For the next roughly 45 minutes we will be taking questions live, and afterwards we’ll check in routinely to continue to answer questions as we can.

Please post your question as an answer below, our team will go in, and edit the answer adding and highlighting our answer in that post. This post is not intended to purely share opinions on this product, please always include a question in your post that you want us to answer.

While the live-answer window has ended, feel free to continue to post questions. Staff will continue to try and answer them as we get time.

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    Some advance notice would be good next time...
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 14:16
  • 25
    Yeah, it probably would be. Noted for next time. We did mention it in the launch announcement but I agree that we should have done a better job of letting folks know exactly when. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 14:18
  • 8
    How to vote in case we like the question but we don't like the answer? Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 14:41
  • 10
    Vote to support the question
    – Chindraba
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 14:42
  • 66
    For an international website with an international community that targets people in any timezone, an unannounced 45 minute window is incredibly small to involve even a small minority of people.
    – poke
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 20:26
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    Regarding the timing, maybe it time to adjust your process? It's certainly not the first time, and the more it recurs, the more evident it is how little respect the company has for the community.
    – Dan Mašek
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 9:25
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    @DanMašek - Indeed, it is time to adjust the process, and I've noted that and will followup. :)
    – Philippe StaffMod
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 10:29
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    The easiest fix to the "lack of announcement, short window" etcetera might be to just have another Town Hall on the subject, with advance notice. If you want to stick to 45 minutes, you'd probably want not one but a few, throughout the day. Fixing the process for the next subject is a good idea, but that still ignores potential feedback on Collectives.
    – MSalters
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 11:21
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    @Philippe Thank you for being receptive at the idea of the timing, and results thereof, being sub-optimal, but I would like to note, here, that after the latest such example from SO that comes to mind (dropping huge announcements with far reaching repercussions across the network just before a religious celebration, therefore shadowing most of the concerned humans from knowing about it), SO did assure us that thoughts would be given to that topic. I am open to being surprised going forward. Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 13:26
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    @Philippe Thanks -- it's been 6-8 weeks, any news on the followup? (sorry if I missed it)
    – Dan Mašek
    Commented Aug 22, 2021 at 21:49

24 Answers 24

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One of the arguably biggest problems with documentation was the instant rep crunching that took place. Someone (and I can't be bothered to dig it up) recently pointed out that the start of Documentation was filled with people copypastaing stuff from various sources and passing it in for the sake of getting rep.

In the event the answer to l4mpi's question is that articles won't be decoupled from rep and that this is in fact desired, what measures do you have planned to make sure Articles don't end up being the new copy-pasta or even an easy way to copy (literally or just posting another repeat of one of the answers) canonicals for free unicorn points with little to no effort, and no added value to the Q&A?


Answer by mfox

This is a good question, and something we researched heavily. See this post for full details, but here is a (lengthy) extract that hopefully covers your question.

And speaking of guardrails, the first thing so many of our participants said to us was: “How do you make sure Articles don’t go the same way as Documentation?’ Which was a very valid question. Exploring this topic filled more than one research sprint for me. I read every post I could find on meta (and there were a lot). We dug up all our internal documentation and research on the project, as well as spoke to several people who were part of the team that built and sunsetted the product originally.

There were several issues we heard about when it came to Documentation, but the ones brought up by our users most often were the influx of poor quality or repetitive content, as well as the rep gaming that occurred. These were, of course, problems we were keen not to repeat. So that brought us to our first key decision on this feature: should we gate-keep Article contributions or let everyone create them? We settled somewhere in the middle.

While at the time of launch we are limiting Article creation to Recognised Members of a collective, that will be a temporary thing. As mentioned in Teresa’s post, we are planning on launching a review process where any member of a collective can submit Articles that will then be reviewed by the Recognised Members of that collective.

In our customer research, something that we discussed was that in order to make this review process successful, customers should be clear about the type and style of Article that would make a good addition to the collective. Hopefully this should go some way to start addressing the first issue we saw with Documentation, helping to raise the bar quality-wise and ensuring that we aren’t just seeing repetition of existing help docs and documentation. Our first two collectives have been provided with advice on this topic.

The other factor when it came to quality was making sure voting was part of the mix. In our initial designs we only had an upvote-style button to signal good quality. But through research we heard that users didn’t want to see upvotes without downvotes. So we added a downvote option in, mirroring Q&A. Which brought us to the other problem we heard about with Documentation: reputation...

I’ll be honest in saying that rep was a topic we got extremely mixed reactions on. Nearly everyone we spoke to had a different take on how we should handle Article rep. So unfortunately, we haven’t found (and probably won’t find) a solution that everyone loves. Some users proposed a new bucket of rep for Article contributions, some encouraged us to offer more rep for Article creation to reflect the added effort it takes to write an Article, and others didn’t think rep should be part of the feature at all.

A concern some users had was that gaining rep from Articles may result in giving privileges on Q&A to users who don’t know the ins and outs of Q&A. With this feedback we spent a long while thinking about ways to limit rep gained from Articles based on Q&A participation, but these ideas simply proved too complex to communicate and build without confusion.

Eventually, after discussing it with several users through research, we settled on handling Article rep in just the same way as Q&A rep. But think of this like an experiment; we are mindful of the concerns some users have and we will monitor the impact this has closely. If we find friction added to the curation of Q&A content by users who have gained privileges exclusively through Article rep, we will revisit the issue.

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    @mfox this answer does not address plagiarization. Somebody can copy a high quality blog post to a Collectives article - what's your plan here? Does the proposed article review process have any tools to help the reviewers detect plagiarized content?
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 14:59
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    I'm also personally worried that Collective admins may not always hold things up to the same standard - the reason we have peer review based on common rules for questions is precisely to prevent one tag from having different close rules compared to another -- if one collective is much more lenient towards duplicates and plagiarism, and I currently can't see a single way I (a non-member of an arbitrary collective) can do anything about it. Post feedback is essentially a glorified comment to the author and editors that isn't even anonymous, and that probably won't have any meaning if the author Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 15:02
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    or any of the editors are missing. If the plan is to let collectives deal with this how they see fit, I estimate that it'll take a few minutes after the feature is made publicly available for plans to be made for its abuse Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 15:02
  • @l4mpi At the moment we have no inbuilt tooling for this, but I really like this idea. We'll definitely look into it.
    – mfox Staff
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 15:02
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    Not sure why the previous comment was deleted, let's try this again... @mfox while you're at it, please also look into removing rep from articles entirely, as that should eradicate a huge incentive for creating plagiarized articles in the first place.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 15:30
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    Definitely worth minimizing rewards for abuse– I say that to mean, to @Zoe's point, that if admins stand to gain from moderating less (even if the gain is minimal), then we'll almost inevitably see some move in that direction at some point. On the other hand, if contributing users don't have much to gain from intentionally contributing spam or plagiarized content, then there will likely be less content allowing such loose moderation in the first place.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 18:41
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    @l4mpi I would hope that if articles can only be edited by recognised members, these are users that already have some reputations and won't be be as crazy about upvotes as new users. But I totally agree: if we say that reputation shouldn't be the highest incentive, let's just start without. Give people badges, lots of badges; rank collectives by their number of article votes; or display a prominent contributor status in the user profiles - but no rep. Handing out extra reputation points later is much easier than taking away reputation that was already awarded.
    – Bergi
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 22:12
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    @Bergi "I would hope that if articles can only be edited by recognised members..." - that's the status right now, but the plan is that every SO user can sumbit an article, which then needs to be approved by a collective admin. Meaning the admins would have to be the gatekeepers protecting the collective against plagiarized content, harmful advice, etc.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 8:17
  • @l4mpi If it's only admins, you're right. I don't think the review feature is fully sketched out yet though? I would hope it includes all recognised users (not just admins), and maybe even gold badge holders in the collective's tags or something. And as for usefulness and plagiarisation, I'd think that level of moderation (votes and flags) is still in the hands of the whole community.
    – Bergi
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 9:30
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    @Bergi "And as for usefulness and plagiarisation, I'd think that level of moderation (votes and flags) is still in the hands of the whole community" - at the moment, voting and commenting are the only interactions allowed for articles. No flagging, and nothing even similar to close/delete voting. I think flagging might be status-planned (and as a workaround, you can comment and then flag your comment), but I don't think allowing the community to delete articles is on the agenda. Which means moderation would be in the hands of the admins and elected mods, not in the hands of the community.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 10:38
43

Why was there no content prepared for the two beta Collectives?

The collectives were created 6 weeks ago. According to your posts, you also did a lot of research and testing. However, on launch, the Collectives were basically empty - a handful of admins and recognized users, only 10 recommended answers in each (after half a day, not sure how it was immediately after launch), and not a single pre-written article. Why were the Collectives released in such a state instead of pre-filling them with content to demonstrate their usefulness?

Answer by jd-stack:

This is a fair point. It would have been ideal to launch with more pre-written content. While the collectives were stubbed out 6 weeks ago, customer training and onboarding took longer than expected. We’re also encouraging organizations to create and post original content rather than simply repurposing existing content so that it’s best suited for the format and helpful for the collective. Long story short, we couldn’t have it ready in time and we opted to launch without it. We have discussed this with both organizations and they’re working on adding content over the coming weeks.

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    why would there have been? I much prefer a tool that doesn't come with preconceived ideas, and having a clear field is much better, in my opinion. I find this keeps with the spirit (I understand of) SO more than having a fully enterprisey launch with oh-so-excellent articles built upon artificial topics. Commented Jun 30, 2021 at 16:47
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    @FélixAdriyelGagnon-Grenier a "clear field" can't exist if features are only available to hand-selected users (admins and recognized users). Articles will be open to all collective users eventually, but recommending answers won't, so why should they only start recommending after the public rollout if they had at least 6 weeks in advance to do so? It also calls google's commitment into question - apparently they were involved since roughly a year ago, but if nobody at google was inspired to prepare a decent article through all of the testing, maybe it's just not that useful of a feature.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 10:11
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    Case in point: It's now been almost a week since I wrote this post and there's still only a single article of questionable value in the collectives (questionable as in, what's the big benefit over a self-answered Q/A pair). That does not inspire confidence that google will be a good steward of the collective, and without a corpration that cares, a collective seems doomed to fail.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 10:14
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    I've been challenging people since the doomed Documentation project to come up with a single example of something that would be suitable as an "Article" but would not be suitable or better as a self-answered Q&A. I've yet to have anyone take me up on the challenge, much less anyone win it.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 17:26
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    @CodyGray I've no actual answer here. A neutral(-ish) thing to say is that an article is a bit easier to write than a (good) self-answered question, even if both are about the same topic. An article can also try to cover wider ground which could be interesting but the answers also encourage more focused content. So, maybe a positive and negative there. A self-answer, though does have an advantage of more answers being possible. The alternative would be multiple articles on the topic but each should introduce the readers into the problem again and again.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 7:09
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    @JD-Stack thanks for the answer. However, I hope this new article in the google cloud community is not the type of content to expect over the coming weeks...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 10:48
38

Why are Articles not decoupled from reputation?


Answer by jd-stack:

This is something that we’ve gotten very mixed feedback on from our User Research panel. The main reason for us to keep it in was the quality aspect of making sure the content quality remains up to the Stack Overflow standards. I’ll quote a piece from the user research post here for clarification:

The other factor when it came to quality was making sure voting was part of the mix. In our initial designs we only had an upvote-style button to signal good quality. But through research we heard that users didn’t want to see upvotes without downvotes. So we added a downvote option in, mirroring Q&A. Which brought us to the other problem we heard about with Documentation: reputation... I’ll be honest in saying that rep was a topic we got extremely mixed reactions on. Nearly everyone we spoke to had a different take on how we should handle Article rep. So unfortunately, we haven’t found (and probably won’t find) a solution that everyone loves. Some users proposed a new bucket of rep for Article contributions, some encouraged us to offer more rep for Article creation to reflect the added effort it takes to write an Article, and others didn’t think rep should be part of the feature at all.

A concern some users had was that gaining rep from Articles may result in giving privileges on Q&A to users who don’t know the ins and outs of Q&A. With this feedback we spent a long while thinking about ways to limit rep gained from Articles based on Q&A participation, but these ideas simply proved too complex to communicate and build without confusion.

Eventually, after discussing it with several users through research, we settled on handling Article rep in just the same way as Q&A rep. But think of this like an experiment; we are mindful of the concerns some users have and we will monitor the impact this has closely. If we find friction added to the curation of Q&A content by users who have gained privileges exclusively through Article rep, we will revisit the issue.

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    My opinion is that users shouldn't get reputation for posting articles the same way we don't get reputation for tag wikis.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 14:47
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    A carrot on a stick should not be required for enticing a company who's paying for this to create good content. Either they're here to support the community, or they shouldn't be here.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 14:49
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    @jd-stack "If we find friction added to the curation of Q&A content by users who have gained privileges exclusively through Article rep, we will revisit the issue." - That's one concern, but not even neccessarily the primary one. One big issue that you did not addres in the answer is that reputation creates an incentive to create articles - whereby "create" can mean "copy them without attribution from a random blog you found via google". A rep incentive will create more work for the admins who are supposed to approve and moderate the articles.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 14:51
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    @jd-stack But only people in the Collective can write Articles, so most people don't get a chance to earn this rep. Talk about elitist... ;-) Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 14:52
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    @HereticMonkey - being elitist was definitely not the goal. We need to make a tradeoff here (see UXR post for more about that process) We’re planning to release a feature (in the near term) that would allow any member of a collective to submit an Article for review
    – JD-Stack Staff
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 14:59
  • @JD-Stack But even any member of a collective would still be a very exclusive club. The fraction of users in any collective is probably still very small and might remain a minority for a long time. Why not simply allow anyone to write articles the same way that anyone is allowed to ask questions or write answers? Articles is just another form of content. There shouldn't be additional hurdles to create it. If elitism wasn't a goal it surely looks like an accepted side effect. You planned the feature like this and could have done it differently. Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 6:20
  • @HereticMonkey that's only at first. If you read fox answer in Zoe answer (?!) anyone would be able to write articles as long as is member of the collective.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 12:16
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    @Braiam Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what JD-Stack responded. But as Trilarion mentioned, that's still limiting the possibility of gaining rep from Articles to Collective members. Every other rep possibility is open to anyone (with the one exception of bounties given to specific answers). Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 12:26
  • @HereticMonkey that's a non-argument. People without a SO account can't get rep either, but can post and suggest edits as guests. Literally everybody with an account can join a collective with a single click, so it is indeed open to anybody.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 13:33
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    @l4mpi That's a non-argument. I'm saying that people who are not part of a Collective cannot write Articles and your argument is "join a Collective". Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 14:02
  • @HereticMonkey people who are not part of a collective cannot write articles, the same way that people without a SO account cannot ask questions on SO. Creating an SO account is a requirement for writing an article as well, and is actually a significantly bigger barrier to entry. If you're not complaining about that step then complaining about having to press a single button to join a collective is nonsense. Also, what's your argument for not joining a collective you would want to write an article for, except for "I don't wanna join"?
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 14:19
  • @l4mpi Writing an article for the community.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 14:31
  • @KevinB not sure what that sentence is supposed to mean. Your argument for not pressing the "join" button is that you want to write an article? Does not compute.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 14:53
  • @l4mpi the collective doesn't encapsulate the entire site. Hopefully, we never get to a situation where collectives do.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 14:54
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    And i agree with them, that it's elitist. The whole setup is. Joining the "collective" is just submitting to this sponsorship scheme. If the feature is truly useful to the community, the community should be able to use it. If we can't, then it clearly isn't a feature that should exist.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 15:14
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What happens if a single collective ceases to exist/no longer has active members?


Answer by jd-stack:

We have yet to define what exactly happens in that situation. There are certain decisions to be made regarding the Articles, Recommended answers, and Recognized Members' badge related to the collective. We’ve discussed several options (gradually aging them out, removing them immediately, leaving it as-is, or retaining some historical context to name a few). We plan to discuss this further through user research sessions to determine the best path forward for the Community.

Currently, Collectives are in the stage where rockets were not far ago: We can fly a person to the moon but do not know how to land the first stage of the rocket to the ground.

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    ... what a strange metaphor to use here.
    – c-x-berger
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 16:56
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    Given I'm strange, I call it a perfect match ....
    – rene
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 16:58
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    one might even call it a blurry metaphor ;) Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 17:41
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Can two collectives have a tag in common, i.e. could there be competing collectives?

Answer by jd-stack:

Technically that is possible, however, this would be an edge case: (random example: [google-maps-sdk-ios]). We do expect that in the vast majority of the cases a tag will be associated with only one collective. We will monitor this as we expand the product and create a structural approach if/when it happens more than we expect currently.

Can a question with tags in multiple collectives have recommendations from multiple collectives (on the same or different answer)?

Answer by jd-stack:

All these scenarios are possible. Think about recommendations almost as some Metadata to the answer from a certain perspective. From one perspective one answer could be the most favorable way of doing it, from another perspective another answer could be. It’s also possible that there is one answer that for both collectives would be a good way of doing this.

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What's the pricing like, if there is one? It's not clear from the announcement or the Collective page if there is a cost for making one at all, much less what it is. Are there any differences for open-source organizations without a fortune to spend on something like this, or are open-source organizations going to end up being excluded (potentially accidentally) if they don't have a massive backing entity like Google?


Answer by Puneet Mulchandani

Collectives is a paid offering. We can’t disclose specific numbers as pricing takes several factors into consideration, including whether it’s a commercial or open-source technology. As Teresa mentioned here, we have planned to include open-source organizations throughout this initiative and have a specific pricing structure at a lower cost that enables them to participate.

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    And what will happen to collectives as soon as a company stops its subscription to this service? Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 14:35
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    @RobertoCaboni addressed your question here
    – Puneet Mulchandani StaffMod
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 14:53
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    I find it rather worrisome that open source projects, especially those that are a collective of individuals or backed by a non-profit, are expected to pay. Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 9:10
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    Yep - I also know of a number of rather substantial open-source projects that probably won't get a collective because they don't route their money into stuff like this (and that's just for the ones that allow donations - the ones that don't have literally no money to spend on anything, including a collective). While disappointing, they're probably not gonna change their mind on pricing, at least if those types of organizations don't fall under one of the undisclosed criteria that may or may not result in it being free. Hard to tell though - corporate secrecy and all that garbage Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 9:15
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Are there safeguards to prevent a collective from censoring questions and answers to remove things which might reflect negatively on the collective's owner/sponsor?

Answer from Carog: All privileges around curation and moderation remain the same for Q&A and users (including Recognized Members and Admins) will need to earn rep to edit, close, etc..

Note: Originally part of a single post with 5 questions. The staff answer was made to the original post prior to it being split into single-question posts and was carried from there. Refer to the orginal post's revision history for the povidence of the staff's answer.

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    That doesn't really answer the question, just provides the parameters they would need in order to abuse the system. Once those privileges are earned/gained, what then prevents them from doing the above?
    – Someone
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 22:34
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    @Lewis I'd presume that with the collective members using the standard tooling to perform edits, any other user can use the corrective measures as we would for a non-collective user. Abuse of the edit ability to censor undesirable, to the collective owner, content could be flagged as any other vandalism would be.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 2:28
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The introduction post said moderation rules also apply to Collective related/connected posts, but I wonder how those rules will be judged. One thing that could become subjective is spam. It is spam when a post only exists to promote something and the author didn't disclose a relation to the product or page. But how will that work when members of a Collective answer questions by mentioning products from the "owner" of the collective, for example Google for Golang. Would it be OK to mention their own products under questions in their Collective and is affiliation already considered disclosed when the post is written by a member of the Collective?


Answer from Cesar M:

Moderation rules (and powers) do not change based on the fact if a question/answer is part of a Collective. Our expectation around answers that mention products is the same as elsewhere on the site: the answer has to provide an actual answer. It can’t be a link-only answer, it can’t be there just for promotion purposes. They can mention a product like any other user could, if it’s part of the answer. It can’t just be added on to answer when it doesn’t make sense to be there.

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    @CesarM Thanks for the answer. The part regarding "disclose affiliation" is still open, tho. Should the member of the Collective explicitly mention that they are related to the mentioned product or is being a member of the Collective already enough to disclose the affiliation?
    – Tom
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 15:32
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    Our current rules are that disclosure must be made in the body of the post (e.g. "You can accomplish this with CoolTool, use the following code.... I am an employee of Conglom-O, who publishes this tool."). A disclosure that requires clicking to the poster's profile or scrutinizing their username or avatar to discover the affiliation is not sufficient. If we allow collective membership to constitute disclosure, will this leak out so that spammers will be able to "legitimately" hide their disclosures in their profiles? Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 23:09
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    @RobertColumbia I agree with you there that this can become a problem, that is why I asked for SOs opinion on that. The issue here is that the answerer has a little note under each answer (or every post?) saying that the user is "Recognized by xyz", so some could interpret that as enough disclosure.
    – Tom
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 23:42
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Is there any system or method, internal or user accessible, to prevent a collective from becoming a marketing venue without actually providing "value" to the Q&A of the site.

Answer from Cesar: We’re not onboarding clients telling them this is a marketing tool, it’s the opposite. A significant part of guidance explicitly says that treating collectives as a marketing avenue will not be taken positively and we don’t want it. From the conversations we’ve had so far, Clients are excited to not only share Articles but also engage in recommendations and answering questions.

Note: Originally part of a single post with 5 questions. The staff answer was made to the original post prior to it being split into single-question posts and was carried from there. Refer to the orginal post's revision history for the povidence of the staff's answer.

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    Um... I am a little confused... How are you self-answering your questions? I don't see staff members making edits on your answers... Where did you get their answers? Was it from another post? Or do you have some other way of communicating with them? Are you part of the staff?
    – Sabito
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 22:33
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    I was wondering this too. Maybe there will be a few collectives who get too "ad happy", or perhaps that organization that keeps spamming Keto ads decides to set up a Collective to protect their spams. Will such posts still be subject to red flag deletion, or will Collective affiliation be a shield to moderation? Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 23:14
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    @Sabito錆兎 Initially there was one post with multiple questions in it which was answered. Chindraba then split off into one post per question pre request in a comment. The comment has been removed since.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 27, 2021 at 15:01
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Are there going to be more Collectives -beyond the current two- during 2021?

Answer by jd-stack:

Yes, we're currently in talks with other organizations to launch this year. We are planning to pace them slowly throughout the year, so we will be able to see how it performs and learn as we go

I'm wondering about the length and breadth of the Beta stage.

Answer by Puneet Mulchandani:

We're expecting to stay in Beta at least through to the end of the year, possibly into early 2022 as well

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How does Stack Overflow plan to avoid conflict of interest with the new Collectives model? I would like to specifically focus on the recognized user feature. I see two main problems with collectives having the power to "recognize" a particular user as being elevated in some way over other users.

For the first point, I can give the example of Microsoft or Amazon (AWS) collectives. Doubtless, they will choose users who have at least a decent level of expertise. But how can we be assured that the "best" answers given by these recognized users won't be influenced by things like corporate politics or profit? The answer is that we don't know this at all. Let's say that there is a certain AWS question. The accepted might belong to a recognized user. But there could be another answer which might also be correct yet be lower cost in certain ways over the accepted answer. How can that Amazon recognized user be expected to give the best answer, if perhaps doing so might hinder profitability? How can we be certain that the recognized user would always answer in the best interest of the Stack Overflow community, if giving that best answer might not meld with with the internal politics of the company he/she/it/them is representing?

For my second point, I would like to point out that sometimes an answer given by a third party independent open-source minded guru can be superior to one from a recognized user coming from just one collective. If I were perusing Stack Overflow on tags such as Java, SQL, or C#, I might very well come across a Jon Skeet or Gordon Linoff post. Both of these experts have literally spent their entire careers working at some of the top tech jobs in the business. To give an example, let's say that I were reading a SQL Server question, and I see an answer by Gordon Linoff as well as the recognized user for Microsoft. I would tend to gravitate towards Gordon's answer, because he has a large breadth of experience of how SQL interacts and behaves with the real world. The recognized answer might be technically correct, but I might tend to view it as one-sided and insider.

For both of these examples, I view recognized users as a risk because it promotes and rewards content based on something external to the site. And as such, this feature can be influenced by things like profitability and politics.

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    There's also that orange banner that might direct more upvotes to it just because of the banner.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 13:53
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    Frankly, I don't see that first case as being much of a practical risk, even though it sounds like it could be one theoretically. The margin for actual abuse occurring in this way this just sounds so, incredibly tiny to me; since only programming questions are on-topic here, not server hosting or business decisions or anything of the like, I don't see nearly any way for a Collective to steer Q&A chains towards something that's more useful/ profitable/ convenient for them but actually worse for readers in some material way.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 14:13
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    @zcoop98 So you don't see a risk of "<regular tool> can do this with <incantations>, but this <$150 a month priced tool that my collective sells> will do it while you sleep"? And that the company behind the collective isn't going to push their members to post such? More interestingly, if they do, how can we tell?
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 14:22
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    @Scratte Honestly, I think even the most fool-hardy voters can tell the difference between an ad of no value & an answer of much value that helps them out. I just don't see many real-life cases where the line blurs enough to make this type of abuse profitable for a company and/ or convincing enough to fool the community (since both need to occur for this to be abused). We suggest programming solutions; a suggestion to buy a new tool isn't even applicable in a good 95% of questions here. I don't doubt the existence of more crafty ads, but no, I still don't see it being an issue.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 14:43
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    I mean, it's a marketing tool being dressed up as a gift to the community. "Here, check out all these cool new features! but, you can't use any of them if some outside company isn't paying for it." Conflict of interest is built-in.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 15:28
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Data explorer and quarterly data dump support for collectives

Will collectives' content like articles, memberships, recommendations,... be part of SEDE or the data dumps? If yes, is there a description of the structure of the data available? Can the corresponding help documents be updated?

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  • Good catch. I'd overlooked the data dump aspects completely.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 17:30
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    In the data explorer you can see recommendations by looking for PostNotices of PostNoticeTypeId = 25. Articles and memberships are not in the data explorer.
    – NicoTek Staff
    Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 17:23
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    @NicoTek If articles weren't part at least of the quarterly data dumps (but also in the data explorer they would be valuable), they'll be a no-go for me. I prefer to create content that is free and has a backup. Also the membership information might be valuable in the data explorer, so statistics can be gathered more easily. Was your comment an official answer? Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 17:43
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Within the the main Q&A users can edit, or suggest edits, to any post to update or correct the information. Is there any tooling, in place or planned, to allow non-collective members to correct invalid or outdated information within the collective's control? I.e.: updates to "articles" as changes in the covered technology occur.

Answer from Carog: All privileges around curation and moderation remain the same for Q&A. For Articles, users can still use comments to voice any concerns and we’ve included a feedback mechanism to address changes that should be made to an article.

Note: Originally part of a single post with 5 questions. The staff answer was made to the original post prior to it being split into single-question posts and was carried from there. Refer to the orginal post's revision history for the povidence of the staff's answer.

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    It should be noted that currently articles cannot be closed or edited as is possible for normal Q&A items. Even comments cannot be deleted, the curation abilities of articles are considerably smaller than for Q&As. That might change over time though. I would recommend to add more features there. Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 21:21
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What scope should a good article ideally have? Can it be broader than the average Q&A or should it be equally narrow?

The one existing article seems to be as focused as a Q&A.

Answer by jd-stack:

The scope of an article should be broader than a regular Q&A. We envision it to be the content piece that is in between Q&A (specific problem, specific solution) and documentation (full description on how something works). An example would be a how-to guide on how to get started on a specific technology.

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    on that same line of thought.. i'm not quite sure what... role an article is intended to play. leaving it open ended aka (let the community decide what it should be) didn't work all that well for docs, and making them more like answers without a question doesn't really solve a problem that an answer doesn't already solve.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 22:03
  • Thanks for the answer JD, I think that this really makes sense and articles could become useful if we can avoid publishing too short or trivial ones. I only wish they would be more integrated with the remaining Q&A (no notifications in comments currently, not closable, the score is displayed in a very small font) and everyone could create them. I don't plan to join any existing collective, so I basically cannot take part in writing articles. Commented Jul 1, 2021 at 16:54
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I apologize if I'm being daft, but couldn't find what "joining a collective" practically means.

A "collective", as far as I can see, is mostly another organizational layer for questions according to their tags. Anybody can post questions into a "collective" by using the right (or wrong) tags. Anybody can move questions in or out of a collective by editing the question tags.

So, what are these buttons for:

"collective" list with "join" buttons

I can see that if you "join" a "collective", it's added to the sidebar:

Sidebar showing "Go language collective" link

(As mentioned in the Beta Launch post):

When you choose to join a collective you’ll find a link to it in the left side navigation. All Collectives can be found here.

Is there any other use for "joining" a Collective? What does it mean in practical terms? The word "join" seems to imply more than "add to sidebar", but maybe it's just me reading too much into things.

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    I guess the answer that you'll receive is that you get to participate in the leaderboard ranking and have a trophy icon attached to your user card. And potentially become a recognized member one day. Yay!
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Jun 29, 2021 at 10:44
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    You also gain the ability to (potentially) write Articles. Commented Jun 29, 2021 at 13:22
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    It allows the company to advertise on your profile
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 29, 2021 at 14:18
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The Collectives pages mentions that it's possible to "earn" Recognized Member status.

Earn a Recognized Member designation from your favorite technology companies. See your answers recommended and check where you rank on the Collectives leaderboard.

How exactly is the process of earning a designation going to work?

  • Will Recognized Member status be given out automatically via some algorithm (e.g. based on tag score or leaderboard position)?
  • Will there be a standardized application process (e.g. a portfolio review rubric, certification exam, corporate training seminar, etc.)?
  • Will Collective management retain complete discretion on who gets and who does not get Recognized Member status?

As a secondary question, is a Collective allowed to maintain discriminatory criteria for granting Recognized Member status? For example, if a collective maintains a "no Muslims" policy or practice, will SO diamond moderators step in and start suspending accounts until the Collective complies with the Code of Conduct? Will Collectives have carte blanche to discriminate on the basis of the money they pay for the privilege to do so?

Answer by Carog

Collective admins are responsible for adding/removing Recognized Members to their Collective. We’re working very closely with these admins to help them find and invite developers that can contribute quality answers and more. These users could be subject matter experts from within the Organization, but could also be existing users of Stack Overflow with expertise. Some of our recommendations for finding these subject matter experts are to look at a tag’s top users or the leaderboard found within the Member’s page of a collective.

Stack Overflow will not tolerate any kind of discrimination based on race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion and more from anyone. If such a case were to arise, Stack Overflow staff would intervene quickly and accordingly. Our CoC and ToS need to be respected by everyone participating in our sites, including Collectives admins and employees.

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Are there safeguards for users to control whether or not the collective is able to absorb their questions?

Answer from Carog: No, any question that has a tag associated to a collective will automatically be associated to that collective. Similar to how that same question would also appear in the list of questions on a tag's page.

Note: Originally part of a single post with 5 questions. The staff answer was made to the original post prior to it being split into single-question posts and was carried from there. Refer to the orginal post's revision history for the povidence of the staff's answer.

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    Collectives are just a different view on a bundle of tags, is one of the mentioned ways to imagine them. In that sense they have exactly the same capability as the usual community to absorb questions. It's just a subset of people with a subset of tags and some special power ups. Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 21:37
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    TLDR any question asked by those tags will automatically be used to show how awsome the collective is, regardless of their involvement in it. Evidenced by the fact that they're being given credit for all past posts.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 14:27
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Have you done any research on how collectives affect new user engagement? I mean specifically with regard to users who either aren't established in the organization, in the tech, or on the site (or possibly all of the above). Simply put, how do collectives affect answer engagements (and by extension, some new user onboarding), especially for users not part of the collective at all?

I'm largely asking on the same basis as two of my comments on the announcement: endorsed answers and answerers may make it harder for new users to be noticed, because the "clearly correct endorsed answer must be better than this random thing from a low rep user".

Also, how do you plan on making sure Collectives don't become a way to make it harder for new users to engage than it already is?

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    To predict the outcome of such a complex change is probably very hard. It might be easier to at least measure the impact after the fact. And it's a good question. If collectives help then not being in one might hurt. Commented Jun 25, 2021 at 21:25
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    @Trilarion Reminds me of labor unions. There are places where one cannot get a good-paying job in the trades without first joining said union, including supporting their political agenda and paying dues thereto. Egalitarianism, if only approximated in the Q&A, would thus be abandoned in favor of corporate affiliation.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 17:26
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Are there any plans to enable some form of opt-in, or at least opt-out, for registered users who don't want to sacrifice their attention to the extra stuff connected with collectives?

Answer from Carog: It’s the user’s choice to join a collective or not. There is no opting-out of seeing collective related features across the site. The collectives are a filtered view of specific tags, the rest of Q&A still behaves as normal.

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  • You can probably always have a user script that tries to remove collectives related features from the view in your browser. That is as long as things like sorting order etc. are not affected. However, collectives will also have an impact on the ecosystem indirectly and that you cannot opt-out from. Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 6:22
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    @Trilarion With Firefox the userContent.css does wonders for this, and other annoying stuff here. I've already adjusted mine for collectives. The ability to choose, officially, to not be bothered would be more considerate on their part, however. It would also give them a measurable statistic to gauge the acceptance within the "collective" of established users.
    – Chindraba
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 13:25
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What happens with the employee label on answers when a person leaves an organization?

I guess it could stay to show that at the time the answer was made, the author was an employee.

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Why is there a near the name of the product? There isn't any near "Teams" or "Jobs". And I don't think it's really possible to trademark a generic term like this, though that should possibly be asked on the law site.

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  • Well, they can register a trademark without making the word itself one - some companies tried to do that but courts usually rule that if the context does not involve the product then the company holds no rights to the word. Seems like SE registered a trademark.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Jun 29, 2021 at 0:31
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    does not seem like "Collectives" is a live trademark yet, btw
    – 0Valt
    Commented Jun 29, 2021 at 0:45
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    Does this answer your question: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/408585/…
    – Sabito
    Commented Jun 29, 2021 at 2:03
  • @OlegValter I thought you need to register a trademark only for the (R) sign (or rather, put a (R) sign after it's registered). Commented Jun 29, 2021 at 8:31
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    Does this mean the C in Collectives must always be capitalized?
    – Amal K
    Commented Jun 29, 2021 at 8:33
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    @Sabito錆兎 maybe, but I would like to have an answer which is not hidden in a comment. Commented Jun 29, 2021 at 8:33
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    @PaŭloEbermann really not sure about that - you may very well be right. I actually think you raised a good point - most of my comment was only about the possibility of registering the generic term (after all, "stack overflow" is a registered trademark). It's just so odd to see the insistence on the "tm" mark if they did not register one. P.s. And yeah, I'd also like to see the official answer to that
    – 0Valt
    Commented Jun 29, 2021 at 8:37
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What do you expect me to think about the displayed user titles like "Google Cloud employee"?

I'm a bit confused by that. What does it mean? Does it mean I should trust the content more or less? And if so how much more or less? Should I put extra scrutiny on the content or less scrutiny? Or can I ignore the user titles? How would I relate different scores to different user titles (say there are two answers, one is from an employee but has a lower score, which one should I upvote).

You say elsewhere that it is just another signal, and I agree, but I have no real clue what it means currently. What should be signalled by it and how shall I weigh it with respective to the other signals?

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Can normal members (who are not a member of the organisation) write articles? I understand the articles must come from a trusted source so the content is correct but will there be a way for anyone to submit an article and published when it is approved by the company?

Answer by carog:

Currently, only Recognized Members and Admins/Employees can write and post an article within their collective. However, we are working on a feature that will allow any member of a collective to write and submit an Article for review before being published in the collective.

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    If content comes from a trusted source it might still not be correct, i.e. the score might be negative and content coming not from a trusted source could be correct, i.e. it may end up with a positive score. Instead of approval by a company (are they really the best to judge the quality of the content) we could also simply rely on voting as quality control. The problem is that a similar endeavor in the past was overrun by low quality contributions. A solution would be not handing out reputation or handing out a different bucket of reputation. The voting is crucial though. Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 6:30
  • @Trilarion that makes sense. Articles will be a great place for people willing to share useful code snippets or getting started guides like posts.
    – Dharmaraj
    Commented Jun 28, 2021 at 6:34
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Are existing answers that exist before a new Collective was formed but fall under the scope of this Collective eligible for the "Answer recommended by organization" status? Or is it only for new answers? Also, is there a reputation boost for a user when one of their answers attains this status?

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    There is no (direct) reputation boost. There already exist "recommended answers" that were posted way before collectives existed. E.g..
    – yivi
    Commented Jun 29, 2021 at 8:46

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