Timeline for Town hall - Collectives™ on Stack Overflow
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
25 events
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Jun 30, 2021 at 8:45 | comment | added | l4mpi | @Chindraba we're obviously talking about the planned process where anybody can submit an Article, as complaining how elitist the current state is doesn't make much sense if SO already said they're going to change that. And I wasn't aware that an admin has to accept new members - actually, I just joined and un-joined the google cloud collective, which worked instantly, so that seems to be plain wrong (and even if it were correct, it would only be elitist if the admins used elitist criteria to grant or deny membership). | |
Jun 29, 2021 at 18:56 | comment | added | Chindraba | Since there is the requirement that the admin of the collective accept and "recognize" the member before they are able to post articles, it is elitist in your own statement above. | |
Jun 29, 2021 at 18:54 | comment | added | Chindraba | @l4mpi One point missed by the thread here is that clicking the "join" button the collective is not the only requirement to write and article within the collective's space. The first problem is that the button submits the user's request to join the collective, not a guarantee of acceptance. Second is that merely being in the collective carries insufficient privileges to write an article. Currently articles can only be posted by Admins and Recognized Members of a collective, though SE is planning to implement a process to allow any member of a collective to submit an Article for review. | |
Jun 28, 2021 at 15:23 | comment | added | l4mpi | @KevinB what? It would be elitist if there's any requirement for joining, or any barrier to entry. It's literally less elitist than almost every other feature of SO, as there's no rep requirement for joining a collective. There is literally no barrier to entry. If your argument is "but I don't like that feature / that company / that technology", well, that's not elitism. If you cannot burden your conscience with joining a collective sponsored by google, then a) that's between you and google and b) you're probably not using any of those google-developed technologies (or are a hypocrite). | |
Jun 28, 2021 at 15:14 | comment | added | Kevin B | And i agree with them, that it's elitist. The whole setup is. Joining the "collective" is just submitting to this sponsorship scheme. If the feature is truly useful to the community, the community should be able to use it. If we can't, then it clearly isn't a feature that should exist. | |
Jun 28, 2021 at 15:09 | comment | added | l4mpi | @KevinB as am I. Heretic complained that it's "elitist" that only people who joined a collective can write articles, and I pointed out that it's a single click to join them and that the requirement to have an SO account is actually a significantly bigger barrier to entry. If y'all have been talking about articles outside of collectives, my reaction would be why would you want to do that and point at SO docs as to why that's not a good idea. And btw, I've been consistently saying a) articles should be decoupled from rep and b) I don't see any benefit of collectives at the moment. | |
Jun 28, 2021 at 15:04 | comment | added | Kevin B | personally i don't want articles anywhere, i find them entirely useless. @l4mpi I'm just incredibly confused at your responses here. | |
Jun 28, 2021 at 15:03 | comment | added | l4mpi | @KevinB so what you're saying is you want Articles outside of collectives? You can do that right now, it's called a blog. It's not on SO, and it doesn't give reputation, and I'd argue all of that is a good thing. Articles right now are limited to Collectives, and that is a good thing as well, and means they're simpler to clean up once this experiment inevitably fails. | |
Jun 28, 2021 at 14:54 | comment | added | Kevin B | @l4mpi the collective doesn't encapsulate the entire site. Hopefully, we never get to a situation where collectives do. | |
Jun 28, 2021 at 14:53 | comment | added | l4mpi | @KevinB not sure what that sentence is supposed to mean. Your argument for not pressing the "join" button is that you want to write an article? Does not compute. | |
Jun 28, 2021 at 14:31 | comment | added | Kevin B | @l4mpi Writing an article for the community. | |
Jun 28, 2021 at 14:19 | comment | added | l4mpi | @HereticMonkey people who are not part of a collective cannot write articles, the same way that people without a SO account cannot ask questions on SO. Creating an SO account is a requirement for writing an article as well, and is actually a significantly bigger barrier to entry. If you're not complaining about that step then complaining about having to press a single button to join a collective is nonsense. Also, what's your argument for not joining a collective you would want to write an article for, except for "I don't wanna join"? | |
Jun 28, 2021 at 14:02 | comment | added | Heretic Monkey | @l4mpi That's a non-argument. I'm saying that people who are not part of a Collective cannot write Articles and your argument is "join a Collective". | |
Jun 28, 2021 at 13:33 | comment | added | l4mpi | @HereticMonkey that's a non-argument. People without a SO account can't get rep either, but can post and suggest edits as guests. Literally everybody with an account can join a collective with a single click, so it is indeed open to anybody. | |
Jun 28, 2021 at 12:26 | comment | added | Heretic Monkey | @Braiam Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what JD-Stack responded. But as Trilarion mentioned, that's still limiting the possibility of gaining rep from Articles to Collective members. Every other rep possibility is open to anyone (with the one exception of bounties given to specific answers). | |
Jun 28, 2021 at 12:16 | comment | added | Braiam | @HereticMonkey that's only at first. If you read fox answer in Zoe answer (?!) anyone would be able to write articles as long as is member of the collective. | |
Jun 28, 2021 at 6:20 | comment | added | NoDataDumpNoContribution | @JD-Stack But even any member of a collective would still be a very exclusive club. The fraction of users in any collective is probably still very small and might remain a minority for a long time. Why not simply allow anyone to write articles the same way that anyone is allowed to ask questions or write answers? Articles is just another form of content. There shouldn't be additional hurdles to create it. If elitism wasn't a goal it surely looks like an accepted side effect. You planned the feature like this and could have done it differently. | |
Jun 25, 2021 at 14:59 | comment | added | JD-Stack Staff | @HereticMonkey - being elitist was definitely not the goal. We need to make a tradeoff here (see UXR post for more about that process) We’re planning to release a feature (in the near term) that would allow any member of a collective to submit an Article for review | |
Jun 25, 2021 at 14:52 | comment | added | Heretic Monkey | @jd-stack But only people in the Collective can write Articles, so most people don't get a chance to earn this rep. Talk about elitist... ;-) | |
Jun 25, 2021 at 14:51 | comment | added | l4mpi | @jd-stack "If we find friction added to the curation of Q&A content by users who have gained privileges exclusively through Article rep, we will revisit the issue." - That's one concern, but not even neccessarily the primary one. One big issue that you did not addres in the answer is that reputation creates an incentive to create articles - whereby "create" can mean "copy them without attribution from a random blog you found via google". A rep incentive will create more work for the admins who are supposed to approve and moderate the articles. | |
Jun 25, 2021 at 14:49 | comment | added | Kevin B | A carrot on a stick should not be required for enticing a company who's paying for this to create good content. Either they're here to support the community, or they shouldn't be here. | |
Jun 25, 2021 at 14:47 | comment | added | Dharman Mod | My opinion is that users shouldn't get reputation for posting articles the same way we don't get reputation for tag wikis. | |
Jun 25, 2021 at 14:37 | history | edited | Nicolas ChabanovskyStaffMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 25, 2021 at 14:35 | history | edited | JD-StackStaff | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
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Jun 25, 2021 at 14:24 | history | answered | l4mpi | CC BY-SA 4.0 |