-13

I am wondering if we can change the suggestions in the input boxes to not point at specific programming languages somehow.

Right now, it reads like a value judgement to me. I read this as HTML and C# are good and PHP and C are bad. In particular, naming PHP in there feels prone to the same old bias PHP users are facing for years. Also, there is no technical need to have a different set of suggestions there to illustrate how to use the input boxes.

How about putting the same tech in both boxes to make clear that this is not intended as a value judgement? It's a subtle change but I feel it would make the selector more neutral and likely more inclusive, given that developers tend to identify with their primary programming language.

Screenshot showing the Tech selector

18
  • 9
    I agree, considering PHP "tech" seems weird and wrong. :P
    – Tom
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 13:58
  • I'm fine with just swapping those around. We can put HTML and C# in the hate box for a few years.
    – yivi
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:25
  • 4
    Given the developer survey results of years past, the placeholders are accurate
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:27
  • @KevinB not true insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/…
    – Gordon
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:36
  • 2
    What am i looking for that you see? I see html and C# above php and c
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:37
  • 1
    I'm curious if this question would've been written in that placeholder said js instead of php. It reads as an objection against an "anti-php-bias"...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:40
  • 1
    "Accurate" (for some definition of accurate) would be putting Rust and Typescript in the top placeholder, VBA and Objective-C in the bottom one.
    – yivi
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:40
  • @KevinB Yes, C# and html above php and c. But there's VBA, Objective-C, Perl and Assembly before C and PHP as the most dreaded languages. And there are plenty of languages coming before html and c#.
    – Gordon
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:41
  • 2
    @Cerbrus I have a background in PHP and C and am more sensitive to them being in that list than js. I might not have noticed if it had said js, but that doesn't invalidate the request.
    – Gordon
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:45
  • 2
    How is that "inclusive"? You only notice it if it's a language you use? That basically confirms this being an objection against an "anti-php-bias"... And this being taken waaaaaaaay too seriously.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:51
  • 3
    @Cerbrus Whatever you think of this specific request, this last objection of yours does not make sense. Inclusivity concerns are very often (if not always) first noticed by those affected by them. It's pretty basic.
    – yivi
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:55
  • Yea, but we're not talking about gender, religion or sexuality here, are we? We're talking programming languages in a placeholder in some profile field. What's next, complain to jsbin for excluding python?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:58
  • 3
    I'm arguing against the idea that there is meaning in the contents of those placeholders, other than a input format.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:59
  • 3
    I do not know "what's next". The spectrum of what kind of language and behaviour that's considered inclusive or not has been changing very rapidly over the last years/decades/century. It's not important what's next. What's important is to see if this request has some merit, if implementing it would be too onerous, and if there are users that would welcome its implementation. I think that by now you've already made clear you are against it.
    – yivi
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 15:00
  • 2
    I'm not going to repeat my comments from under my answer. I've mentioned problems with having the same placeholder everywhere, multiple times already.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 15:07

4 Answers 4

6

Yes, I agree those entries should both have the same boilerplate/placeholder suggestion.

I propose to join them so it becomes

e.g. c, html, c#, php

for both boxes.

If there is a good reason to have different boilerplates then I suggest using familiar-looking "names" that are not quite right, for example:

e.g. script, see##

This will only lead to new contention when I bring see## to the market.

With this settled, we can all move on.

3
  • 5
    "Looking for see## developer, 20+ years experience required"
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 15:23
  • Yes! If we can't have any fun, let's at least try to make it abstract
    – 0Valt
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 15:24
  • 3
    If "we're" gonna change these placeholders, then I hope that at very least either all or no real programming languages are included. (And since php isn't a "real" programming language... :V)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 15:27
11

What if, on balance, this wasn't a judgment call, but was supported by some data that Stack Overflow itself has been analyzing for quite a while?

(but note that even updating the placeholders dynamically to respond to those kinds of trends is a lot of work for not a lot of gain)

Subjectively though, there's more impetus to teach or showcase technologies like HTML and C# in workshops and it's also more in demand than say PHP or C.

But I don't want to read too deep into it. I'm just going to regard this as a simple placeholder, and if someone happens to like C or PHP or both, then they are empowered to put that in as concrete things that they do like.

It isn't like the form is auto-filling the tags in for you.

4
  • 1
    The data selection ignores that Java, Python and Javascript would all rank higher though than C# and html and rust and assembly would rank below PHP and C. So even though the ranking of the selection you made might be correct, it's still a selection made. That's the actual problem. Also volume of questions doesn't necessarily map to like/dislike.
    – Gordon
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 15:25
  • 4
    It does because it's only comparing amongst the four mentioned tags in the placeholder, @Gordon. Also too - as I said before, it isn't like the form is actively auto-filling those tags in on your behalf; it's just showcasing how to use it. I don't necessarily disagree with the sentiment that maybe they should be more neutral, but given that developer time comes at a high premium these days - and we haven't even received relatively basic QoL improvements in quite some time - I'm not seeing the value in tackling this as a big issue. Persuade me that this'd be worth spending dev time on.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 15:27
  • "it's just showcasing how to use it": but do you agree that it would also be doing that if the same set of tags was used in both fields? I agree this is not a big issue. By far not. It's not like I am raging or trying to raise a shitstorm here. I just feel it would be a nice and subtle improvement. And I guess, changing a string doesn't cost much time and could be done on the side.
    – Gordon
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 15:31
  • 2
    @Gordon: I honestly do not care. It just doesn't matter enough for me to want to see this changed, and I can't hear a convincing argument from you that compels me to want to care.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 15:39
8

First, I would like to point out that this is a very low-priority item, regardless of whether we establish that the placeholders are indeed "inclusive" or not. I say that to mean, any consequences of this issue are very, very minor. The change being inconsequential to even the users hypothetically most affected by the issue makes it sound not worthwhile to me.

Second, we also need to acknowledge that what you're reading as a "value proposition" simply wasn't designed as one. It's not a language rank. It's not a list of languages and how they compare to each other. As you've pointed out, the supposed data behind "php and c are less liked than html and c#" includes many more languages than these 4, leading me to believe this was not intended as any sort of actual depiction of value. If it's not actually depicting value, then reading it as if it was is just... incorrect.

Third, and finally, I don't think it's a stretch to say that this was almost certainly written to be humorous, in exactly the way that you lament as "the same old bias PHP users [have faced] for years". What you call a "bias" is something that's been a meme and in-joke in the programming community almost as long as PHP has existed, among both PHP developers and others alike; I think casting it solely in a negative light, as a "bias", is short-sighted, and just not correct. A programming language doesn't suffer from being the punchline of these jokes, and PHP developers don't suffer from jokes being made about their language.

At the end of the day... I really do think they're just placeholders, making this change unnecessary overall.

2
4

Alternatively, you could just not read too much into it, as they're merely placeholders.

14
  • 1
    If they are just placeholders, there should no be harm in using the same set in both boxes. But someone decided to have different sets in the boxes. And that does apply some kind of judgement imo.
    – Gordon
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 13:54
  • 5
    Then what does having the same tags in both boxes say? That we can't like a tech without also disliking it? You're attributing meaning to a placeholder where there isn't any. Don't overthink it. It's just a placeholder.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 13:56
  • If we had the same tag in both boxes, I wouldn't even need to think about the fact that someone felt it necessary to distinguish. In that case they would just be placeholders. It's subtle, but it's there.
    – Gordon
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:01
  • 2
    "I wouldn't even need to think about the fact that someone felt it necessary to distinguish." That's what I meant with overthinking it. More thought has gone into writing this question than building the placeholders, and even if the developer that built those inputs personally agrees with the placeholders, why does it matter? How is having the same tags in both any better? Are those tags then the only ones that are worthy of being entered? Are other tags somehow less significant? You're implying a lot of meaning from something that's nothing more than a input format.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:06
  • 1
    I encourage you to overthink it. It's an issue of association and priming. Why does it matter? Says so in my feature request: it's less inclusive. The selector is not neutral. It suggests that php and c are things to be disliked. There is no technical need for the placeholders to be different.
    – Gordon
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:19
  • 3
    And there's no technical need to attribute meaning to where there isn't any. I mean, come on. "Inclusivity" on placeholders of tag inputs? Really?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:23
  • It's also not very "inclusive" to exclude other languages from those boxes. A concern I mentioned in my first comment here, already.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:27
  • 1
    "And there's no technical need to attribute meaning to where there isn't any." doesn't make any sense to me. By not using the same set of tags, the author did apply semantics. If it was the same set, these semantics would not exist, because it equalizes. And then it would also not matter, which tags it lists. It would be clear that it's just placeholders that bear not further significance. And yes, inclusivity on tags. Many developers identify with their programming language of choice.
    – Gordon
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:33
  • Now we're just going in circles, so I suggest we terminate this discussion.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 14:34
  • 2
    @Cerbrus I don't really agree with the OP's request but the logic here is flawed, IMO. Imagine if Stack Overflow had a feature to follow and block users and you saw "Cerbrus" used as a placeholder in the "Block" field, how would you feel about that? Obviously, I'm not saying that having your name there is the same as with a language you like but if the rejection is based solely on a "they're just placeholders" argument, well, that's true for both situations.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 15:13
  • 2
    @41686d6564 but that analogy's logic is also flawed :) If "blocking Cerbrus" was a running joke among SO users, it wouldn't be so surprising (and I am pretty sure I wouldn't consider this insulting if my name was there in this case). On the other hand, hating on PHP has been a long-standing joke.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 15:18
  • 1
    I don't think my logic is any more flawed than asserting that there's meaning in the contents of those placeholders. ;-)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 15:21
  • 1
    @Oleg "hating on PHP has been a long-standing joke" I wouldn't have added the previous comment if that were the argument :) As I said, I don't really agree with the request anyway.
    – 41686d6564
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 15:40
  • 1
    @41686d6564 I see - oh well, this whole thing is getting blown out of proportion anyways, so let's have some fun while we can :)
    – 0Valt
    Commented Jun 22, 2021 at 15:42

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .