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I think I'm not the first person to realize that there are often deletion/undeletion battles going on in a certain tag that has been discussed recently in a separate meta post.

I was going through the moderator tools today and saw an interesting post with a timeline involving successive deletions/undeletions in a short period of time.

So I'm just curious whether moderators are automatically informed of such actions. It seems this cannot be solved with the effort of the users involved, which will inevitably end up as an infinite loop of delete/undelete, and/or close/reopen.

Additionally, should there be some mechanism to limit the number of deletion/undeletion votes that one could cast on a certain post to, say, 1/2? It shouldn't be necessary for one to cast more than 2 delete/undelete votes on a post, because if that happens it probably means a battle is going on.

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    I'm not sure, but I think mods do get notified when posts go through delete/undelete cycles like that. There's actually a recent proposal to restrict delete/undelete votes to once per user per question, which would solve this problem quite nicely. As mentioned in that proposal, yes, mods do step in when necessary.
    – cigien
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 12:10
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    Yes, exactly. I should have been clearer in my previous comment. Mods stepping in is not a great solution, as it's a waste of their time, and the only tool they really have is locking, which is a bit blunt, and usually temporary (these points are covered nicely in the linked proposal). The best solution is to restrict delete votes IMO.
    – cigien
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 12:15
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    Restrict delete votes, and blacklist regex. Problem(s) solved.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 12:17
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    Just need someone (SO staff?) to actually do it and be aware of the seriousness of the problem. Regex is really shambolic, but if delete votes are restricted it probably won't be so bad to be blacklisted. And it's probably not the problem of the regex tag, but the users involved. Sometimes non-regex posts are involved as well, e.g. the post cigien linked (java).
    – mck
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 12:18
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    it's seems there is a pattern in that delete/undelete series that can be represented using a Regex Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 13:15
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    @yivi just remove regex.
    – Braiam
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 14:03
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    We seem to be in a rut where every other week we come running to meta to override moderation actions through meta effect/mod intervention in the regex tag. What is the end-game here? Is the user abusing their privilege's? If they aren't, why are we still doing this?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 14:40
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    Put another way, In what way are these 4 user's actions less valid than the other 4 user's who took the opposite action? Is the fact that the question had one upvote and one downvote at the time evidence that one side was more correct than the other?
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 15:01
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    @KevinB In no way. The problem is that without any limitation, these situations can enter infinite loops, and we all know that infinite loops are bad. It's one of the first things one learns. As many mentioned, moderators actions are not the solution, limiting the amount of delete/undelete votes per user/per post, is.
    – yivi
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 15:03
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    @mck I read it (thanks for the link) - that explains why you would delete it the first time, but not necessarily why you would delete it a second time.
    – Gimby
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 16:04
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    @MisterMiyagi the same can be said of those who are undeleting it, of course. though there doesn't seem to be much interest in reopening it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 17:51
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    This looks like a good example of why delete votes should be one-time things like close votes.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 14:51
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    One of the questions that I answered got the same kind of treatment i.e. a lot of deletion/undeletion. I think both parties involved have a lot of passion i..e the person who answered (me) assume that by deleting it my efforts, time, etc (along with points) are removed or a slice of my life was permanently removed from the world while the other party may assume that it is not a question that anybody should read along with some ego. Anyway, after a couple of rounds, I give up as it is no longer important to me. After effect - peace of mind!
    – akrun
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 21:03
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    Does this answer your question? Does the delete/undelete vote feature need to be revisited?
    – Chindraba
    Commented Apr 1, 2021 at 4:03
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    @Chindraba That is a much broader question. I don't think it works well as a duplicate target.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 1, 2021 at 12:46

2 Answers 2

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The answer is yes, but there's some caveats here.

As I noted on MSE

It's clear that motivated users with that privilege will continue to delete/undelete ad nauseum, and it actually diminishes the delete privilege because people who disagree will get more votes tomorrow to change it back the way they see fit. Add in Meta effect and it can prevent community consensus, leaving mods to fix it with nuclear weapons.

The nuclear weapons are... well... nuclear

Locking

Here's Gru to describe why locking is nuclear Gru's Plan meme: 1: See a question is being chain deleted. 2: Flag for moderator attention. Gru's realization (punchline): Post is locked. Nobody can interact with it.

Locks prevent all interaction with a post, including up/down votes, comments, edits, etc. When there's a content dispute, a simple timed lock can help. But, in this case, it's not very effective because motivated users just outwait the lock. A permanent lock isn't a good idea, either.

Diamond Deletion

If a diamond (moderator or SE employee with a diamond) deletes something, only another diamond can undelete. So no more delete wars, but it's deleted.

Suspension

Like locks, we can suspend you, which prevents you from deleting or closing things. But... that's not something we just do off-the-cuff. Most deletion is benign and content disputes aren't something mods prefer to resolve. I mean, which side is right? We have tools to make sure a post is gone mostly for good, but not tools to make sure others don't remove it other than removing their ability to interact with the site.

So... flag it?

Per the question

So I'm just curious whether moderators are automatically informed of such actions.

There's no autoflag for delete wars like there is for things like contested duplicate closure. So if you don't say anything (via flag or Meta), there's no easy way for us to find out.

Also, should there be some mechanism to limit the number of deletion/undeletion votes that one could cast on a certain post to, say, 1/2? It shouldn't be necessary for one to cast more than 2 delete/undelete votes on a post, because if that happens it probably means a battle is going on.

I have asked for that very thing

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    I'm glad that mods are aware of this. This issue is kind of escalating - there are more and more coordinated and motivated deletion / undeletion efforts by certain users. There are always some of these questions that appear in the moderator tools.
    – mck
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 14:40
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    But somebody going on a deletion spree would have to justify it if the mods come knocking and wonder what they are up to. Deleting up-voted duplicates is quite questionable in many cases. I've never heard of "delete wars" like "edit wars", but I'd say that we generally should hold 20k+ users with full delete privileges to a much higher standard than 2k+ users with edit privileges only. If some 20k user goes into a delete tantrum, a temp ban might be order since they really ought to know better.
    – Lundin
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 14:52
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    Could you clarify the "Suspension" section a bit? IIUC, repeated deletions/undeletions are the issue, so there's no question of which side is "right". If so, there simply needs to be some limit to how many times users can perform the action on a post, which is going to be mod-enforced via (threatening) suspensions. At what point should I raise a flag when I see this behavior? Is this something there should be a separate Meta post about, so that mods can refer to that as a justification for not allowing users to do something the system allows?
    – cigien
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 16:38
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    Upvoted for Gru meme.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 16:52
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    @cigien The issue is chain deletion. The current thinking is that deletion wars were rare (they really aren't rare anymore). If users are deleting over and over, that's unhealthy. If the same users are deleting over and over it's more problematic. Yes, we can ask them to stop, but our tooling to make them stop is extreme. There's also the lag between when mod flags go up and when they are handled.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 17:23
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    @Lundin Delete tantrums are something we can handle easily, but how do you resolve two groups of users who are arguing over closure and deletion by chain casting votes? If the question seems marginally on-topic there's no good reason to delete it, and duplicates sometimes require specific knowledge about the subject to resolve what should and should not be closed (there's a much wider debate that will probably show up on MSO at some point about that). It's not straightforward, sadly.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 17:29
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    Which side is right? Well, any side which has the same people voting on the same post more than twice (without taking it to Meta first) is wrong. Anyone who waits out a mod lock to do the thing the lock was intended to stop is wrong. While I think suspensions would be well deserved in such cases (maybe with a warning first), this seems more like a failing in site functionality and/or available mod tools (although I guess whether it's worth changing functionality for depends on how common the problem is). Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 20:33
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    Fact is, if people are willing and able to undelete it over and over, people will also be willing and able to delete it over and over. Locking it only delays the problem, and suspension/threats of suspension just discourages use of moderation tools. The tools simply need to be improved
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 20:37
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    AFAIK, the people that are trying to undelete it, should instead get it merged, or reopened. Any question closed is fair game for deletion, and duplicates are kind of a wash most of the time.
    – Braiam
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 21:16
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    Closed post should never be fair game just because they are closed. If they were, there'd be no reason to have both closed and deleted. A post should not be deleted unless there's reason to delete it, which is usually when the post is harmful.
    – Scratte
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 22:08
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    @Scratte the most common reason for a post to be deleted is inactivity/usefulness/quality, not harm (aka it was downvoted and left to rot).
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 22:20
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    @Scratte tldr... if something is harmful, casting a close vote, waiting for it to be eligible for deletion, and casting a delete vote is certainly not the correct course of action. Delete votes aren't just for harmful posts.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 30, 2021 at 22:24
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    Non-deletion is an exception for content that rise above the rest. It's a pretty high bar to clear. Anything else, should be either improved and reopened or deleted. That is the lifecycle of a question.
    – Braiam
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 18:06
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    @Braiam: I've answered and gotten upvotes on a lot of questions that have become closed. Some were duplicates I didn't find. Some I believe a tailored answer was simply better. Some I believe the closing was not called for. Yet for most of these I would complain if they were deleted.
    – Joshua
    Commented Mar 31, 2021 at 18:40
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    @Braiam: You have taken a small piece as the whole. Most of the time the answer I would place would be completely unsuitable for the proposed dupe target.
    – Joshua
    Commented Apr 1, 2021 at 16:46
-24

They should never step in, their involvement will very much stop the process of curation whatever decision they come to, as this answer properly alludes. Content curation is, and more so for a site of the age of SO, aggressively needed. There are already post on the site that call for deletion only on duplicates that have no answers, which is wrong. A library of high quality programming questions should not accept subpar content, like questions that do not provide novel keywords to find the canon question. Those should be irremediably deleted.

The problem here is that the users voting for undeletion are not using their powers correctly: if they actually believe that there's content worth preserving, that content should be on the canon question, if they believe that the question was wrongly closed then they should be voting for reopening. A duplicate question is either a useful signpost for the canonical question or it's not a duplicate, there's no in-between.

Using delete votes here is a proper response, using undelete votes is not.

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