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The new delete policy seems to be incredibly arbitrary. Why was How can I add a number [closed] deleted?

There are multiple upvoted answers that answer the specific question (and answer it well). This looks like a circumstance where something went very wrong resulting in a downvote dogpile on the question.

What can be done to fix this? There is no reason this question was magically in need of 15 near simultaneous downvotes to justify deletion.

When this whole question delete issue was discussed a month or so ago, we were told that questions would not be deleted unless and until "Subject Matter Experts" reviewed the question and answers for deletion. That doesn't appear to have happened here. Are we now letting bots just remove questions without the subject matter guidance?

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    I'm not sure which Meta discussion about deletion you're referring to. It would be helpful if you linked to that, for context. I don't personally recall there being a consensus that SMEs were required to judge if posts should be deleted.
    – cigien
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 5:14
  • @cigien added a link to that deleted question (plus an image for <10k) above. Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 5:35
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    @AbdulAzizBarkat I'm pretty sure that's not the discussion David is referring to. Nothing is mentioned there about SMEs. or deletion. That meta was posted by the OP of the deleted main question, when their post was closed.
    – cigien
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 5:37
  • @AbdulAzizBarkat that was not a discussion a month ago
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 5:37
  • I am quite sure though that this was the only question that discussed the question linked by David though, might be they are mistaken about the SME part with some other question. Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 5:43
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    "There is no reason this question was magically in need of 15 near simultaneous downvotes to justify deletion." please show the evidence you have that the question was downvoted only in order to delete it. "Are we now letting bots just remove questions without the subject matter guidance?" also evidence of bot involvement.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 5:50
  • Hold on I'll go find the link. It was the main meta question where it was discussed with about 290 comments below. @VLAZ - when I and dawg answered the question there were no downvotes. Then it would appear to facilitate the deletion an ungodly number of downvotes just appear. So much for our policy for new contributors and attempting to help. There is nothing I've seen (aside from blatant spam) that would justify 15 "me too" downvotes. Certainly not this question. It looks like the downvotes were an intentional means-to-an-end. Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 5:57
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    Meta-effect. That question is pretty clear to me, I'm not sure why it was closed let alone deleted. Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 6:05
  • The prelude question to the deletion push was this one What should we do when one person tries to delete every duplicate? I'm still looking for the question I reference related to where a concerted change was to be made that would result in more questions being deleted. The crux of the issue being the concern that the delete decision would require someone with subject matter expertise. This was to prevent, what appears in this case, valid shell utility answers being delete for reasons not apparent from the question or answers. Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 6:22
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    @DavidC.Rankin surely you have evidence this is not the meta effect. Because it sounds a lot like regular meta effect. Because we also have a policy to assume good intent. So if you're suggesting direct voting manipulation as part of planned subversion of the rules of the site, then I expect you to show actual evidence to go with that accusation.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 7:29
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    "What can be done to fix this?" Simple -- if you're the OP, don't throw a tantrum on meta, and actively insult people who curate the site. I've seen the meta post and comments -- not sure why this needs to be dug into any further.
    – Dan Mašek
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 8:41
  • 1
    @DanMašek I don't follow; there certainly is something that needs to be fixed, and it's not that the OP must change their behavior on Meta. The guidance on voting on main is quite clear; vote on content, not people. If users downvoted the post on main because of the OP's behavior on meta, then those downvotes were cast in bad faith. Same for any delete votes, if they were not cast based solely on the contents of the main post.The fact that the "Meta Effect" is real, doesn't necessarily make it acceptable, and while it may not be high priority, or easily fixable, I'd say it is a problem.
    – cigien
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 21:26
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    No, no, no. No one impugned intent to anything. What was remarkable is how the question would accumulate the staggering number of downvotes just before being deleted. I don't have any special privilege to look at when the downvotes occurred, but what I can say is after being here for some 7 years, I haven't before seen an argulably legitimate question with 15 downvotes. Let's keep the focus on the original question. Why was it deleted and was there a subject matter expert making the call. It never ceases to amaze me that simply discussion cannot be had without ad hominems being injected. Commented Jun 27, 2021 at 1:41
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    'What was remarkable is how the question would accumulate the staggering number of downvotes just before being deleted." and it's not related at all to the meta effect because..?
    – VLAZ
    Commented Jun 27, 2021 at 8:24
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    Such questions can be posted on Unix & Linux. Just state the requirements (no demonstrated effort required), and they will write a script, in multiple scripting languages (Bash, Perl, AWK, Python, etc.), without any complaint. Commented Jul 2, 2021 at 10:55

1 Answer 1

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I think this is just a result of the Meta Effect. Here's what I think happened.

A user posted a how-to question with no attempt to solve the problem, and there was a single comment (as far as I can see) saying they needed to show an attempt. The question was closed a little while later. (The fact that the question is sufficiently narrowly scoped, with a clear and detailed specification, and probably shouldn't have been closed at all is besides the point).

The user didn't understand why their question was closed, and posted about it on Meta. The meta post displayed a rather poor awareness of how the main site, as well as meta, work. The post miscategorized curators as moderators, called curation interfering, etc. The user's comments didn't help matters either. (Interestingly, the comments section seem to suggest that the main post was indeed closed for lack of effort). Anyway, these interactions almost certainly contributed to the -15 score of the main post.

The meta post itself was (incorrectly, IMO) closed as a duplicate of a post asking whether a "how to build an app?" question is appropriate. The meta post was deleted shortly thereafter. This left a post on main with a -15 score by a user who'd made a poor impression on Meta. Given the increased scrutiny on the post, it's not at all surprising that it got deleted, the existence of multiple upvoted answers notwithstanding. Just the Meta Effect at work. If the user hadn't brought up the question on Meta, or brought it up differently, it might well have been reopened.

I'll note that there is no requirement that one be a SME in order to cast a delete vote on a question. One can vote to delete questions where one is not aware of the subject matter at all, but where the question is clearly not useful. The question you've linked to is not one of them though.

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    It appears that we would have benefitted from an even quicker deletion of the OP's Meta post, much unlike the delirious suggestion to slow down on them.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 10:14
  • as is said before the post had to be closed much sooner, and the rules that you haevt to attempt a solution, must be enforced much more strictly
    – nbk
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 12:20
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    @nbk On the contrary, the absence of any such rule should be communicated more clearly. A lack of showing an attempt is not a reason to close in and of itself. There are many viable questions that do not need a show of attempt, and I've seen lots that were better because they did not tack on some random mess of code. Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 13:50
  • @E_net4theflagger I'm not sure what you mean. Who exactly would have benefited from a quicker deletion of the Meta post? Also, the Meta about slowing down on deletion was far from delirious, it had a lot of good points, and it referred to Meta posts about policy changes, not just any meta post, and not ones asking why some question on main was closed.
    – cigien
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 15:56
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    Keeping non-constructive posts on Meta is problematic, regardless of what the post is about. In the example shown here, it led to biased voting and deletion. In the other example I linked, it allowed a troll to waste our time while insulting our peers. It is known time and time again that a Meta question of this sort cannot survive on this site with the culture established. It has to be constructive, and the asker needs to be able to listen. It's not like one is asking too much here.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 16:43
  • @E_net4theflagger I think I understand where you're coming from. It's a bit sad IMO, that it's somehow the unconstructive post's fault for the "biased voting and deletion". Your response, in fact, confirms the validity of the argument George made against quick deletions. I know you've said not much is being asked here, other than the post be constructive, and that the OP listen, but it really does sound like you expect the OP to agree with the feedback. btw, the post George referred to had nothing resembling trolling, and users who felt insulted were IMO, being too sensitive.
    – cigien
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 21:20
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    "it really does sound like you expect the OP to agree with the feedback" Let's not put words where I did not say them. :) They can disagree with the site's modus operandi and customs, that alone (at least to me) would not be a reason to delete the conversation. "the post George referred to had nothing resembling trolling" That would be the part where I simply disagree. Based on the pieces of text seen throughout the questions and answers, that OP was ringing alarm bells from the start, and it definitely violated the CoC at some point. We shouldn't accept that.
    – E_net4
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 22:53
  • @E_net4theflagger I've tried to not put words in your mouth, and tried to make it clear that this is only my impression of what you said. Anyway, I suspect we're using the term "trolling" differently. I take that very seriously, as well as violations of CoC, and would R/A flag (or custom flag) instances of that. I absolutely think that's unacceptable, but the post that you'r referring to doesn't qualify. I disagree very, very strongly with the OP, but I think I have to accept that they can make the argument.
    – cigien
    Commented Jun 26, 2021 at 23:30

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