25

A user asked this question recently. There's no doubt it's well-written, but it's extremely poorly researched. This question has been asked and answered hundreds of times (at least in my 5 years in ).

Obviously, I know the subject matter and I've seen lots of these duplicates, so I was able to immediately find 13 of them with a few key words from the question body: Scanner, infinite loop, InputMismatchException, etc.

I shared it with the SOCVR chat room and recommended its deletion with my argument that it contributes nothing new (or useful) to the site. It was deleted.

Then two users that I don't see eye-to-eye regarding duplicates and the OP (who IMO shouldn't be allowed to vote for such undeletes) voted and undeleted the post.

We've discussed duplicates and deletions to death on Meta, but the line is still fuzzy to me. I could find you another 20 duplicates of this question. Would that be enough to justify its deletion?

14
  • 5
    Perhaps I'm mistaken, but doesn't marking it as duplicate (potentially) give more credence to the original question on (some) external search engines? If so, it gives more chance of people finding the answer without asking the question again. If the question is completely deleted from SO, it gives less chance of people finding the original and more chance they'll ask that same annoying question over and over again.
    – user955340
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 16:21
  • 8
    My condolences, I know it is exhausting. Not much you can do about it. Consider that this went wrong a long time ago, why does this question need to be covered at SO at all? Surely [java] programmers made this mistake long before SO was started. But nobody reasons that way either. The only real defense is to recognize a question like that from half a mile away and not waste too much of your time on it. No need to find the duplicate for example, a quick DV is enough. It is up to you. Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 16:31
  • 2
    Sotirios, I see your InputErrorMismatch and raise with Why are these constructs (using ++) undefined behavior?...
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 17:14
  • @Bilkokuya Yes, SEO for search engines is based on the number of incoming links, and the weight of those incoming links (not all links are equally "valuable"). However, most sites are going to be smart enough to not give much (if any) weight to incoming links (from the same site), else people would just fill their own sites with lots of (possibly hidden) links to their other pages just for the SEO.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 17:48
  • 1
    The more I think about this, the more this question pops into my mind: who are we taking this action for? If we're just closing it as a dupe, we're doing the OP and others a favor by giving them a place to look for their answer. If we're deleting it, we're doing the community a favor since this content is actively detrimental. If we're doing both...I'm not sure that this makes a lot of sense.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 18:06
  • 7
    @Makoto A question can't be deleted unless it's closed; if you're wondering why people take the time to close a question before deleting it, when it very clearly merits deletion, that's often why.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 18:35
  • 2
    @Servy: I think the point we're arguing now is whether nor not this merits deletion at all. I'm also interested in drawing attention to the ultimate goal; if it is deleted, it can't be of any use. Would the outcome be the same if it wasn't closed as a dupe?
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 19:49
  • If "the line [were] fuzzy to you," you wouldn't post a suggestion to delete in SOCVR's chat room, would you? I mean, you can't have it both ways. Commented Jan 4, 2018 at 18:58
  • @dasblinkenlight It "became" fuzzy as a result of you and Eran voting to undelete it. Regardless, SOCVR is a sort of authority on such matters as they go through hundred of posts like this a day. If I was confused, that's where I'd go to get clarity. Commented Jan 4, 2018 at 19:41
  • 1
    @SotiriosDelimanolis I'm sorry, but I view your question as a disingenuous attempt at advancing your agenda on deletion of duplicates. The "Would that be enough [to] justify its deletion?" part is a dead giveaway that you were not looking to change your opinion on the subject as much as influencing others' opinion. Commented Jan 4, 2018 at 20:33
  • 2
    @dasblinkenlight why is advancing his agenda wrong and yours right? Everyone has an agenda, that's irrelevant. What is relevant is if in the bigger picture this course of action is beneficial in the long to very long term. I've seen myself having to bang my head at google because it gives me the wrong results for certain things where I know I'm using the correct terms, but there's a popular duplicate target that share some of the terms that tends to dominate the results page. What could be done in my case? (P.D. my agenda is to actually find what I'm looking for)
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 4, 2018 at 22:31
  • Would "it's a duplicate of a duplicate" be sufficient grounds for deletion? E.g "how to sum two numbers" would be a duplicate of "how to sum two numbers" which is a duplicate of "how to add two numbers". Commented Jan 4, 2018 at 22:43
  • 2
    @Braiam There is absolutely, positively, nothing wrong with OP's advancing his agenda. I disagreed only with his way of doing it. Commented Jan 4, 2018 at 22:57
  • @dasblinkenlight You don't have to apologize. That's a fair assessment. The question was rhetorical. I don't know how much you participate in Meta, but I think the community knows my stance on this subject. Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 16:07

7 Answers 7

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It's not a question of number of duplicates. It's a question of whether that one duplicate is going to be found by people with that same problem, but that wouldn't find any of the other duplicates. If there are thousands of exact duplicates, but a bunch of people would find that question that wouldn't find any of the other duplicates, then it shouldn't be deleted. Likewise, if there's only a single duplicate, but there's no one that would find one question that wouldn't find the other, then there's no reason to keep it around.

  • If that post uses unique terms that people with that actual problem are using, and that don't currently direct them to the solution, then it's a useful signpost.

  • If the question has been linked to from a bunch of external sources, then it's a useful signpost.

If the question isn't attracting lots of views, and isn't likely to start attracting lots of views in the future, then it's not a useful signpost, and should just be deleted.

6
  • 3
    Indeed, it's not about a number. But the number does demonstrate that it's unlikely there's anything unique about that post. Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 16:07
  • 6
    I think this is a bit Schrodinger-like. You measure a "useful signpost" by the number of views a question gets, but typically the questions that are here don't have a long time to accrue a lot of views.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 16:51
  • 7
    @SotiriosDelimanolis Sure, it's a red flag that you should look closely to see if there's something unique, and you're right that really common duplicate are much less likely to be a useful signpost than infrequently duplicated content. The point is that you don't delete a question because it's commonly duped, you delete it because it's a bad signpost, even if the reason it's a bad signpost is because there are so many other better ones out there.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 17:39
  • 4
    @Makoto You don't make the judgement purely on the views alone, that's right. If you could, we'd just automate the system and auto-delete dupes that had a sufficiently low view count. It's a thing to take into consideration. You're making a judgement call about whether there are signs that a question is likely to attract more views in the future (does it have an unusually large amount for the short time it's been up, are you finding it using relevant search terms that aren't finding other related questions, etc.). I'm not saying every low view count duplicate should be deleted immediately.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 17:41
  • @Makoto Hopefully the edit helps clarify the point.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 17:41
  • 2
    I absolutely agree that views alone isn't sufficient, and that this is a judgment call. I also see that this is an incredibly contentious judgment call, given that opinions can swing wildly and a common heuristic doesn't seem to exist for general cases. I would counter that "isn't likely to start attracting lots of views" is a misnomer given that a question can lie relatively dormant for years and then get a boost of popularity all of a sudden.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 18:04
17

The line's always been a bit fuzzy. I've never really felt comfortable deleting duplicates since...well...unless they're guaranteed to never bring any value to anyone ever, they're still worth keeping around somewhat.

The only thing I see right now is that the question is not actively harmful, so I don't see a keen reason to warrant its immediate deletion.

Additionally, what would we accomplish by its removal? We've closed it as a duplicate to direct the OP to a solution (even if I feel like five dupes is overkill). The question isn't harming anything by its continued existence. Why should we step in to delete it so quickly?


I should clarify my above point by attempting to surface a question I have on the whole issue at large.

Think about this:

  • If we close a question as a duplicate, we are doing the OP and future visitors a favor by telling them, "This is where an answer lives. You can benefit from this."
  • If we delete a question, we are doing the community a favor by shielding them from something actively harmful, detrimental, or otherwise distracting.

What happens if we do both? Does the OP or others have enough time to get the information they need? Is the community now a better place by removing the content outright?

If we can be satisfied with how this scenario plays out, then there are cases in which a speedy deletion could be justified.

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  • 4
    Good luck guaranteeing anything like that or proving harm. To me it's just unnecessary, we should remove it just like we do for comments. Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 16:02
  • 8
    @SotiriosDelimanolis: I think that's where you're finding the friction. You're seeing them as unnecessary and noisy, whereas others see them as useful and as sign posts. Before you can really come to a decision point on what to do with those questions at all, you may want to get more of a quorum on whether or not these are actually noisy.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 16:48
  • 3
    Side-note about that: often, the people seeing them as necessary and useful are the ones with something to lose (reputation from their answers). I have no stake in the question's deletion. Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 19:50
  • @SotiriosDelimanolis: That's an angle to consider too; their stance isn't any less diminished because they may have a stake in it. Deletion outright impacts those groups too. If you're saying that the question genuinely shouldn't be here, would it be better to not close it as a dupe and delete it instead?
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 19:55
  • 8
    The existence of a large number of duplicates does actually make it significantly harder to find something slightly different from the post that everything is a duplicate of. Commented Jan 3, 2018 at 20:03
  • "... unless they're guaranteed to never bring any value to anyone ever, they're still worth keeping around somewhat. The only thing I see right now is that the question is not actively harmful, so I don't see a keen reason to warrant its immediate deletion." Clogging up the search results is a harm.
    – kaya3
    Commented Nov 9, 2022 at 22:37
8

The problem with a high number of duplicates is that it gets harder and harder to link to the best duplicate. If you have a question that has been asked literally a hundred times before, are you really going to go through a hundred of the same question to find the best one to link to ? should you ?

If the question doesn't add any value to a previous one, I would argue that it should be deleted even if it's only been asked once before.

5

There's a critical mass where the corpus of terms and keywords that a question can be worded is reached that should trigger deletion. But not deletion of the latest duplicate, mind you, but of any duplicate that doesn't enrich said corpus. So, it's not a number of duplicates, but that the current group of duplicates each of them makes more likely for the searcher to find what is looking for.

I would say that any question with more of 20 duplicates is worth looking. And if newer duplicates aren't better than prexisting ones, immediate deletion could be performed.

1

Contra other answers, I would like to request: please don't delete duplicates simply because they seem redundant. When I mentally evaluate site quality, I don't count redundant duplicates in my tally of "oh my expletive deleted, there are way more questions on Stack Overflow than the problem space justifies". I don't count them as questions, because they are instead just additional presence for the same (ideally canonical) question.

Consider why we close questions as duplicates in the first place: to route people to the right place. By linking a duplicate, we encode the information that question X is a rephrasing of question Y.

If X has a novel title, that also makes sense in context, we have significantly improved the system. People looking for the novel title can now easily find the canonical. This includes other Stack Overflow curators who are trying to find the canonical later, to close another X.

However, even if X has significant problems - the title is entirely redundant, the code is unclear etc. - as long as it is a recognizable, coherent duplicate then we are still adding value to the system by linking it:

  • If there are good answers, hopefully this can initiate the process of migrating them.

  • Additional answers won't be added to the dupe. If the canonical needs more, hopefully new answerers will go there instead.

  • More importantly: the inbound link is a separate kind of vote for the target, when we are trying to establish which question should be treated as canonical. Many of the site's most important questions (Some Python-specific examples via SEDE) have hundreds of dupes. Certainly, almost all the dupes are not adding useful ways to rephrase the question. But they are helping multiple systems (human curators, the site search, and hopefully external search engines) to find them.

On the first two counts, deletion isn't necessary; on the third it's actively harmful.

But please do vote to delete if

  • The title is actively misleading; i.e. it would not help a person who genuinely has question Y to find it, or worse yet would lure away someone who has a different question (for example, due to a different problem causing the same error message).

  • The question is not high enough quality to recognize the underlying question at all - IOW, if we didn't have the canonical, the dupe would have been closed for some other reason. In particular, if the question is multiple questions in one, and each of those questions is a duplicate (this is actually a very common situation!), then it doesn't represent a good factoring of the problem space. It isn't valuable for search engines, and should be pruned. It was most likely closed that way for expediency, so that OP could be sent away with necessary information.

Aside from all of that, the much bigger problem is a vast sea of unrecognized dupes sitting around unclosed. You can help improve the site by thinking of searches that should find the canonical, looking at the long tail of low-quality results, and hammering as appropriate. (If you have - as often happens to me - gotten frustrated looking for a canonical, hold on to those query terms so that you can help with cleanup later.)

1
-1

Poorly researched obviously duplicate questions should be downvoted to oblivion and then deleted to lock in those downvotes so the system can work the way it is designed.

Anyone that answers poorly researched questions that are obvious duplicates should be downvoted to oblivion as well.

This is how the system is designed to work.

This is the official way to show your opinion of questions and answers, and indirectly affect the behavior of those using the site.

And you have absolutely zero responsibility beyond clicking a button and owe no one an explanation to your thinking or intent on why you clicked the button. Actually it is very clear that downvote comments do more harm than good to the toxicity of the site., especially when they are in demand to a comment demanding an explanation.

The downvote button html looks like this for a reason!

<a class="vote-down-off" title="This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful">down vote</a>

What part of "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful" implies that punitive intent is implied in anyway?

Claiming that it is some kind of personal attack or punishment on a person to exercise the downvote is incorrect. That is why the system does not work any better than it does now and will not get any better with pushing that continued thinking.

Inferring intent behind the downvote is ridiculous. No one is a mind reader and the instructions on when to downvote say nothing about controlling intent so it should not be inferred there is any beyond the text of the downvote button, which as a reminder is "This question does not show any research effort; it is unclear or not useful"

To make it clear:

Oblivion: the state of being unaware or unconscious of what is happening.

Anything >= 5 downvotes is effectively oblivion, since it makes the general public unaware that the question even exists because it makes it ineligible for the front page. Also it is any amount of downvotes that enables the delete button to become active so I can vote to delete if appropriate. Either way, closed/deleted/invisible, it is a quantity that removes the question from public awareness.

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  • 1
    This is kind of what I was afraid of. Using downvotes and deletion as a way to "punish" the OP for not completing their research. I get it; they didn't research their question. But I don't think that this mentality is right.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 16:58
  • 4
    @Makoto The poorly researched obviously duplicate questions aren't useful. Downvotes are very much warranted...
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 17:03
  • 3
    @Servy: Downvoting a poorly researched question is fine. Closing it as a duplicate is appropriate. Deleting it is the matter at hand (I think it's a bit heavy-handed since you're removing a way for the OP to get timely information, but we haven't seemed to reach a consensus on this). Vindictively voting down everyone that answered the question not knowing that it was a duplicate is the wrong attitude.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 17:10
  • 3
    @Makoto You specifically said that it was wrong to downvote a question for being poorly researched. That is the wrong attitude. It is objectively and unambiguously wrong as per the site's rules, which specifically indicate that downvotes exist to indicate that a question is poorly researched. You didn't say anything about how to vote on a question that was well researched, and that the author couldn't reasonably be expected to have found the duplicate of, but that was in fact a duplicate. Jarrod hasn't discussed such posts either.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 17:12
  • 4
    Downvotes are the preferred feedback mechanism the site has for this, that is why the downvote buttons are there. Intention has nothing to do with it, you downvote things that are "bad" you upvote things that are "good". That is how the system is designed to work. Where does anyone say anything about "punishment"?
    – user177800
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 17:13
  • 2
    @JarrodRoberson: "Downvoted to oblivion" reads to me as "punishment". You've missed the message of "feedback" and skipped straight to shouting in their face.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 17:14
  • 3
    @Makoto Downvotes aren't (primarily) there for the post author. They're a signal for everyone else as to the quality of the post. If a post is really bad, then having it downvoted helps everyone else see that it's really bad. Note that the downvote tooltip doesn't say anything about only downvoting a post once, and that it's unacceptable for a post to attract lots of downvotes for being poorly researched, unclear, or not useful.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 17:16
  • 4
    If something is worthy of 1 downvote, it's worthy of 50. your downvote shouldn't be based on other people's votes, so if 50 people saw it as low quality it should have 50 downvotes. Something that is so obviously poorly researched such that you can copy paste the title and find dupes, it's obviously worthy of downvotes. you'd expect it to receive a lot of them in an ideal world, but people don't spend their votes.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 17:18
  • 4
    I caution against it as well, but it goes both ways, and I feel there's too many out there who freely cast upvotes on everything they see downvoted.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 17:21
  • 2
    @Servy: Yes, I recognize that, but the fact that "downvote to oblivion" was explicitly stated, this doesn't allow for the other natural part of Stack Overflow to help ameliorate that. Interestingly enough, dupes are enough of a quagmire that no amount of editing can help a verbatim NPE question. But "downvote to oblivion" that particular question because it's a dupe...again, seems like punishment to me.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 17:21
  • 3
    @Makoto While you personally may interpret following the sites rules and voting based on the quality of a post as punishment, despite the fact that you're being explicitly told by others that it's not the case, that doesn't make it okay to violate the rules, nor does it change what the rules are. If you don't want to follow the rules and what to abuse your privileges, I have no means to stop you, but you can't say that downvoting questions for being poorly researched violates the rules, because the rules say the exact opposite, and that you're expected to downvote them.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 17:24
  • 2
    @Rhayene Then you misunderstand the statement, because that's not what it says. It's saying nothing about going out of your way to direct people to the question with the expressed purpose of convincing them to downvote it. It's just saying that these posts should be downvoted by the people that read them, and the result of that would be them attracting a fair number of downvotes.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 17:27
  • 3
    Then please clarify what the difference between 'downvote' and 'downvote into oblivion' is please :)
    – Rhayene
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 17:28
  • 2
    @Makoto - no I am upset at other people accusing me of malcious intent and then defending that accusation instead of acknowledging they are projecting and even maybe apologising, after multiple other people pointed out no such intent is even impleted. I am not a big fan of such passive aggressive slander. Nothing you accuse me of writing is actually written there, now or in the history, so you are the one at this point that needs to review their own mentality about the subject.
    – user177800
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 17:38
  • 3
    @Makoto So if it's wrong to downvote bad content, what are downvotes for? Why do they exist if low quality content shouldn't be downvoted? You're of course free to not like the policy that the sites rules are that bad content (in this case, poorly researched questions) should be downvoted, but you can't say that that's not what the policy is, because the site's rules are unambiguous on the matter. Saying that you want to help with question quality by refusing to provide the feedback that low quality questions are of low quality seems rather counter productive in my eyes.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 5, 2018 at 17:41
-6

I personally think the people who want to delete duplicates usually aren't the ones who are qualified to make that judgment, since they probably often no longer have any vested interest in utilizing the information from the seemingly over-asked question and its answers, and they may ignore important distinctions. I'm not saying all users who want to delete questions overlook or ignore possibilities, but I've seen it happen on StackExchange enough to know that it would be a frustrating problem if it were expressly the rule that duplicates should be deleted routinely (it would be a problem whether or not they accrue high numbers). I've personally found a plethora of useful duplicates with information not found in the original question or its answers (in fact, it's pretty hard to find one where that isn't the case, sometimes). The answers to one duplicate can be incompatible with the original question, often. Very specific, often overlooked, details in a question can be very helpful, and make for different kinds of answers. Some duplicates shouldn't even be marked as duplicates, let alone deleted.

As to the specific instance you're considering (I don't know what it was since it was removed—archival history is important, IMO), it may well be an exception to what I've talked about above. It sounds like maybe all the duplicates aren't marked as duplicates where they should be, if you have to search to find them. Marking them as duplicates should be rather helpful, consolidating them.

One problem with deleting new duplicates is that they're new. If you're going to delete one, delete an old one that no one cares about anymore from a low rep user who hasn't been active in years (although I personally don't recommend deleting duplicates). Newer stuff is better for SEO, since people like the latest stuff. Also, search engines usually direct me to the newest duplicate (not the original, which can be tough to find in a search sometimes, sometimes even if you cater your search to that specific version).

Deleting a new question is going to cause a lot of issues (e.g. arguments, hurt feelings, defection from the site, less new content, more walking on eggshells, strife, stress, worry, and so forth), whereas deleting an old question (which has already had ample opportunity to prove itself) such as I mentioned is probably going to go entirely unnoticed in most cases. If people protest, delete a different one instead, if there are so many (that is, if SO comes to the consensus that deleting some duplicates is a good thing). But again, I don't advocate deleting duplicates, and I disagree with it in most cases. I'm just thinking of possible compromises that sound more acceptable.

Anyway, if all true duplicates are marked as duplicates, it doesn't matter too much if they're never deleted. If they become a problem, somehow, SO could just pragmatically handle them in a desired fashion (like make them not show up in search results from the searchbar, so they don't get in the way, etc.)

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