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Referring to the following suggested edit in the review queue: https://stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/28302046

In case the suggested edit in question isn't accessible any longer, here it is in picture format: Backup picture

So my question is fairly simple: Is an edit due to "markup changes" justified? Does it improve the readability in such a way that a reviewer should approve the edit or is it superfluous and thus falls into the category of "no improvement whatsoever"?

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  • 14
    They didn't even remove the fluff at the end - I would reject and edit.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Feb 11, 2021 at 23:55
  • Interesting opinions so far! I faced another one today (stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/28311317) - this time I decide an approval would be justified as there was no proper syntax highlighting beforehand. Though I'd like to hear some more opinions on this question prior to accepting an answer, maybe even from a moderator to get an in-depth view on the situation. Commented Feb 13, 2021 at 9:17
  • 1
    I would reject that one as well. What's the point of adding syntax highlighting in that case. I don't get the point of syntax highlighting in general.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Feb 13, 2021 at 22:48

3 Answers 3

18

In this case there is very little else that could have been fixed in that answer, except for trimming out the HTH at the end; and I personally believe that any improvement to a question or answer, no matter how "small" (e.g. correcting syntax highlighting), is valuable.

The problem comes in when, as in this case, it's a user with under 2k reputation making such edits - because of course edits by users below that threshold have to be reviewed, and it's a waste of time for others to review such small edits.

In short, it depends (as a famous AoE2 caster is known to say). While small edits can be valuable, they need to be balanced against the overhead of making such edits. If you have 2k rep there is no overhead, so edit away; if not, you should be a little more careful and thorough.

That does, however, seem to create a case of "rules for thee, not for me" - but this is negated by the rep requirement. By getting to 2k rep, you have proved yourself a trusted user on this site, which implicitly means we no longer see the need to review your every action.

This dichotomy is not aided by the help centre on editing which, like most of the "help" centre, is woefully vague to the point of uselessness. Do you see any rule against editing posts to fix syntax highlighting? Nope. How about removing HTH-style fluff? Zero. Definition of "substantial"? Nuh-uh. However, there is an explicit call-out that editing for spelling and grammar is good, which I would consider relatively minor; and as this is a programming site, I'd lump editing for syntax highlighting in with spelling and grammar.

Therefore, on balance, I think it's probably "more correct" to reject this edit and use it as a tool to teach the user about the unwritten rules decided on by Meta re editing, than it is to allow the edit through. But it's important to understand that by this site's written rules, that user didn't do anything wrong - yet they're effectively being punished.

This disconnect between written and de facto rules is arguably the reason why Stack Overflow is considered "unwelcoming", and it's so easy to fix that I honestly don't understand why SE Inc. hasn't done it... except that getting SE Inc. to spend 5 minutes to fix something simple that needs to be fixed, as opposed to them inventing arbitrary months-long projects that nobody asked for, is somewhat of a lost cause at this point. You can lead a horse to water, but that doesn't help if it's decided it doesn't want to drink...

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  • First chapter from "Edits on StackOverflow for dummies" book.
    – Sinatr
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 14:48
  • 7
    While I agree with your answer, I think this is not made clear to <2k users. Personally, I looked at how experienced users made edits, and based my decisions on that. Holding low rep users to a higher standard in terms of making substantive edits, may be a good idea, but it should at least be made very clear to them that this is the case.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 14:51
  • @cigien You're preaching to the choir. I mean, look at the name of the 2k privilege, it's "edit questions and answers" - at face value that appears to suggest you can only suggest edits at 2k rep, when that's not the case - it really should be "edit questions and answers without peer review" or similar.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 14:58
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    @IanKemp Yeah, that's a good point. Another option would be to increase the size of the rejection message so that it could be explained to the user why the edit was actually rejected. I really dislike having to reject with "No improvement whatsoever", since that's not true, especially when it's an edit that I would make myself.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 15:11
  • So your message here is "only make small edits when they are not reviewed by others"? I disagree with that. The edit is not only wrong because it wastes reviewers time, it's simply not a good one. And as a >2k user, they should at least care enough to remove the fluffy HTH. And I think as reviewers we should let the low-rep users be aware of that
    – Tomerikoo
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 16:47
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    @Tomerikoo If the editor had removed the HTH in their edit, would you consider it a "good one"? What is your bar here?
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 16:54
  • I guess I would approve. It's substantial. As the guidelines in the help-center "correcting all problems that you observe". Those are all the "problems" in this post...
    – Tomerikoo
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 16:56
  • 1
    @Tomerikoo The problem is that the "help" centre doesn't state that it's expected for editors to remove "HTH"-style fluff. It also doesn't state that editing only to modify syntax highlighting is bad. It does state that editing to fix spelling and/or grammar is helpful, and considering that SO is a programming-focused site, I would lump "fixing syntax highlighting" in with that. So once again it comes down to the problem of what the long-term curators of Stack Overflow know via Meta, and what the help centre does (or rather, does not) tell new users.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 17:01
  • @IanKemp hard to argue with that. I know there are many corners in the help center that lack accuracy and details. I guess this is why this kind of meta discussions are productive to gain some community consensus on those delicate issues. Still, I think it's hard to reach, as edits are one of those things that are really open to interpretation - what's really too minor and substantial enough are rather subjective in the end...
    – Tomerikoo
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 17:06
  • I like your edit! I have one small problem with the phrase "that user didn't do anything wrong - yet they're effectively being punished." Reject doesn't punish in any way. Approving awards the editor with 2 reps, but a reject simply does nothing. It does however helps the editor improve future edits, so it's basically a win-win
    – Tomerikoo
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 17:35
  • 1
    @Tomerikoo Actually, if enough edits are rejected, then one gets suspended from suggesting edits. Since the edits aren't actually bad, I would say that's a punishment, and an undeserved one.
    – cigien
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 20:27
  • @cigien I actually didn't know that. Thanks for the notice
    – Tomerikoo
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 20:52
  • @Tomerikoo "I guess this is why this kind of meta discussions are productive to gain some community consensus on those delicate issues." No it's not productive at all, because average users will not know anything about that consensus - even in the rare case that there is no other contradicting meta post. As Ian said, this why SE is considered unwelcoming, because you are expecting new users to know what was written years ago in a pile of meta posts. Commented Feb 14, 2021 at 14:55
  • @ChristianStrempfer It's at least better than doing nothing and sticking to the bad help center, don't you think? Or we can just close Meta and follow the help center exactly as it is
    – Tomerikoo
    Commented Feb 14, 2021 at 14:59
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    One thing that always bothers me is the idea that I should spend 20 minutes "fixing everything" or do nothing, including improve the formatting to be correct or correcting spelling and tags. Not only does correct formatting make it easier to read, it makes the page have the correct markup structure (which makes search that understands markup function better) and more usable by screen readers. I agree probably not great for < 2k but for everyone else what's the problem with that?
    – Elin
    Commented Feb 14, 2021 at 18:00
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That's actually an interesting case.

Generally speaking, such an edit can be useful. What your image doesn’t show is that the code block got the lang-shell in the edit. If, for some reason, you have a Java code inside a Python tagged post, such an edit might be an improvement and justified.

Here, the changes are very minor. True, we run pip in a shell, but the highlighting is really meaningless here and doesn’t affect the readability of those three lines so much.

The cherry at the top is that the editor didn’t even remove that “Hope this helps”.

Remember:

Tiny, trivial edits are discouraged - try to make the post significantly better when you edit, correcting all problems that you observe.

And:

Edits are expected to be substantial and to leave the post better than you found it.

This is why I would either reject with a message explaining that, or reject and edit with the same message as the edit summary so hopefully the editor will check why their edit was rejected.

Why not approve?

While it might be said that this edit still improves the post, even if the slightest, I believe that part of our goal in the suggested edits review queue is to “educate” editors. They might reach 2k rep some day and have the ability to edit freely. We would like them to use that privilege wisely and by approving this edit (and granting +2 rep) the editor will keep doing such minor edits. By rejecting, there is the chance they will check for the reason and learn how to improve their edits in the future.

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    It is jarring though when the syntax highlighting is obviously wrong, like it was here: it took the -- signs as comment markers or such. The same problem was in the error text dump in the question itself. But is it worth spending reviewer time etc., that's different.
    – ilkkachu
    Commented Feb 11, 2021 at 20:43
  • 13
    "the highlighting is really meaningless here" - strongly disagree. Why is it meaningless here? Because the answer is short? Highlighting severly improves readability. Also, your answer doesn't answer the question: should the edit be accepted or not.
    – Sinatr
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 8:46
  • 12
    If an edit is an improvement, it should be accepted, even if it doesn't fix all problems. Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 12:59
  • 1
    Note that what you've linked to is guidance for users with >= 2,000 rep, which doesn't apply for the user in question who has far less rep than that.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 14:41
  • 3
    Such edits might be discouraged, but SE still doesn't want you to (outright) reject them (rejecting and editing may be fine, but in this case you would be building on their changes, so it's probably kind of borderline between that and "improve edit"). They specifically removed the "too minor" rejection reason quite a few years ago. Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 15:13
  • 1
    @Sinatr maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. It is meaningless here because it doesn't change the readability of those three lines. It's not even code, they are indeed shell commands which were clear enough as it was. Regarding answering the question: "[...] which would make me reject such edit with a suitable comment."
    – Tomerikoo
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 16:23
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    @IanKemp What difference does it make? Also here it says "Edits are expected to be substantial and to leave the post better than you found it.". And putting that aside, the user will reach sometime 2k rep and have the ability to make free edits. I believe it's our job to "educate" them so at that point their edits will be good enough. This is why I rejected with a specific message explaining exactly that
    – Tomerikoo
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 16:26
  • @Tomerikoo I don't disagree with what you did. I'm merely pointing out that using guidance for 2k rep users, in a case involving a user who isn't 2k rep, is probably not helpful.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Feb 12, 2021 at 16:55
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They added the shell language hint to force the correct syntax highlighter. To achieve that they needed to switch the code block to a code fence. Your screenshot hides that, switching to the markdown view gives a better view to judge the change.

I've tried viewing the code as is, with lang-default, lang-shell and shell and the changes are noticeable but I wouldn't say this makes the answer much more readable.

There are hardly other changes the answer could benefit from. I've rejected the edit as no improvement whatsoever.

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  • They don't need to change to a code fence, they could have wrote <!-- language: lang-shell --> and an empty row before the code block.
    – totymedli
    Commented Feb 14, 2021 at 4:36
  • 1
    @totymedli no, that is deprecated. They could have used <!-- language-all: lang-shell --> which is still supported
    – rene
    Commented Feb 14, 2021 at 9:11

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