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When a question gets closed using the flow [community-specific reason] > [Needs debugging details], this is the current closure notice:

Closed. This question needs debugging details. It is not currently accepting answers.


Edit the question to include desired behavior, a specific problem or error, and the shortest code necessary to reproduce the problem. This will help others answer the question.

Closed X mins ago by User1, User2, User3.

(Viewable by the post author and users with the close/reopen votes privilege)

The debugging details links to https://stackoverflow.com/help/closed-questions.
The desired behavior links to https://stackoverflow.com/help/on-topic.

I find those links to be inconvenient.
I think one of them should link directly to the MCVE/MRE page.

Why?

  1. The 1st link leads to a list of other close reasons. The asker's first instinct wouldn't be to know about all the other possible reasons other questions are closed. The OP's main thought would be about why their own question was closed, and possibly how to get it reopened. The MCVE/MRE page does a good job of handling that in the first sentence: "When asking a question, people will be better able to provide help if you provide code that they can easily understand and use to reproduce the problem.". And then it goes on to describe how to provide those missing "debugging details", which is actually what the link title was all about.

  2. The 2nd link does have a "seeking debugging help" bullet point and a link to the MCVE/MRE page, but it's amongst a bunch of other information that isn't all directly relevant to providing "desired behavior" about the problem. If you find and click on the right link from that page, then you will find the MCVE/MRE page. It's like when you run your code and then it fails with "ERROR: Please see some .log.", then you have to go hunting for the log file, and look for that exact error among all those lines of the log file. If you know where to look, then great. If not, then it's just frustrating.

While the other information on those links are indeed important, it isn't important now for the asker. I think that getting them to understand now why their post is missing "debugging details" and how to provide it now would improve the flow of close - edit - reopen.

One could then argue that if the user clicks enough links in the help center or looks at the right sidebar, they'll eventually arrive at the MCVE/MRE page. But why not just provide it upfront?

One could also argue that people don't read the help pages anyway. Well, pointing them to pages that isn't directly related to the close reason or does not help in reopening the question doesn't help improve that situation either.

I don't have stats, but I just think linking to the MCVE/MRE page would be more helpful.

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    Note that MCVE link was explicitly removed by recent close messages changes... I'm not sure what can bring it back... Apr 29, 2020 at 4:14
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    @Alexei Feature requests on Meta that get a sufficient amount of traction for me to use as leverage when begging a CM. :-) Note that the idea behind the new close changes was to simplify and reduce the amount of text. This resulted in the trimming of the detailed explanation, which previously contained the discussion about what an MCVE is. (Some more detailed text is still shown to the asker, below the horizontal rule.) While simplification is an admirable goal, I totally agree that "needs debugging details" should be a link to the MCVE help page (not some generic "what is closure?" page). Apr 29, 2020 at 4:27
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    @CodyGray that's much reassuring reasoning for vote! At least there is some hope the it makes a difference. I'm too puzzled why that information deemed unnecessary... maybe they hope to show it in new close experience? (Anyway I'll vote then instead of skipping). Apr 29, 2020 at 4:35
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    Why on earth was the MCVE link removed from the close-vote options? Getting into the habit of isolating your problem in a reproducible example is one of the best things a novice (or a non-novice!) can do. May 3, 2020 at 7:21
  • Maybe it's a deliberate removal that will separate the users that can find it and the users that can not.
    – Scratte
    May 3, 2020 at 7:57
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    @Scratte "Maybe it's a deliberate removal that will separate the users that can find it and the users that can not." And then? Will users who cannot find it automatically unregistered and all their contributions deleted? This should have status-review, at least get some feedback about why such a link cannot be set. Sep 17, 2020 at 12:10
  • @Trilarion I don't think the removal was a good idea. I was being a little sarcastic about a possible reason for its removal..As in: "If users can't find it, we don't want their Questions anyway". I don't think their other contributions will be deleted, but if they don't know why their Questions are being closed, they're likely to make the same mistakes and get Question-banned fast.
    – Scratte
    Sep 17, 2020 at 12:29
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    Also requested on MSE: Link in Close banner doesn’t specify debugging details. Sep 12, 2021 at 1:04
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    It's incredible that this link still isn't back after over a year since this topic was opened. Right now the close message makes no sense for a user, because the "debugging details" part (which one would expect to link to something describing "debugging details") only lists irrelevant other things. 😒 - We already have 53 upvotes, what else do we need to get common sense back?
    – CherryDT
    Sep 28, 2021 at 12:41

2 Answers 2

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I've updated the links in the post notices for this close reason to point at the MCVE help center page.

While this addresses your specific ask, I want to raise one for you all to consider. When we made the changes to the close reasons, we actually made them significantly more flexible because we wanted to help you get questions closed for the right reasons and prevent people from using a close reason where it wasn't warranted.

You now have the ability to set five separate messages for the close vote UI and post notices. While I have made some minor adjustments to these, I think that you could do a lot by following my guide on MSE to improve them even more significantly. To do this, I'd recommend using one question for each close reason you want to update and use the answers to propose wording for the different sections.

Once you've come to some consensus, get the post ed by a mod so that we can review the text. Note, any changes we make will be retroactive, so editing these reasons should be limited to changes that are backwards-compatible. Any changes that depart significantly enough in intent should be proposed as replacement close reasons and you should retire the existing ones rather than editing them.

Here's an example of this process on MSE. I've gone through this process on a few other sites, I'm just being lazy about finding more examples because it's 1:30 AM. :)

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    "When we made the changes to the close reasons, we actually made them significantly more flexible because we wanted to help you get questions closed for the right reasons and prevent people from using a close reason where it wasn't warranted." No you made them far worse and this mistake could likely have been prevented by having an open discussion with the community about the changes in advance. I'm glad that you did at least rollback this one, better late than never.
    – Lundin
    Oct 26, 2021 at 6:43
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    Y'all (the mods, anyway) literally control the community-specific close reasons and you have since long before the format change was made (though I think Shog was always the one who actually created the SO close reasons). I agree that we need to do some work on the network-wide ones - and I think there's some discussion about that going on - but that's a bit out of scope for this specific discussion.
    – Catija
    Oct 26, 2021 at 6:45
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    I've been told that "literally" isn't quite correct - which is true... mods can create the reasons from scratch and retire old ones whenever they wish but they need a CM to edit them. That said, I'm usually pretty responsive when it comes to doing the edits.
    – Catija
    Oct 26, 2021 at 6:52
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    Can confirm; Catija is extremely responsive here. I literally just marked this as [status-review] a few hours ago to request CM attention, and she responded, well, as you see, within an hour. You can't ask for anything better than that, truly. Frankly, if you want to gripe at someone, gripe at me. More than anything, I'm the one who dropped the ball on escalating this original request to CMs. I was waiting for this post to garner some community support via upvotes. Well, it did, but I didn't do anything about it. Had I pinged Catija, it'd have been done months ago. @Lundin Oct 26, 2021 at 7:15
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    @CodyGray The point here is that this didn't need to happen in the first place, if there was some transparency and open discussion with the community before rolling out arbitrary changes to the site.
    – Lundin
    Oct 26, 2021 at 7:41
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    I'm not sure what to say to that, other than it results in decision paralysis. You see the process Catija's talking about for getting the close reasons improved and updated? She told me about that well over a year ago, maybe two (who can keep count with COVID?). I've been meaning to do it, to compose what I see as a starting point, and then bring it up for discussion on Meta. Yet… I haven't. Because stuff like this takes time. And then Meta would bikeshed about it for weeks, maybe longer, perhaps never reaching a clear decision. So, yeah, that sounds good, but isn't terribly practical, either. Oct 26, 2021 at 7:47
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    @CodyGray Why would giving the community the option to give feedback for a week or two lead to decision paralysis? Good leadership involves listening to all parties before making a decision. And I'm pretty sure some 1000+ users who've been using the site for many years have more valid input than a few random SO employees scratching their heads. Even if asking the community didn't produce much useful feedback, at least you gave them a chance speak their minds. Which again is good leadership.
    – Lundin
    Oct 26, 2021 at 10:28
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It's not greatly understood that the close reason is anyway a trick to get the OP to debug their own question, rather than to get them to give us enough information to debug it for them.

Over the years, I've asked many questions on SO to help with debugging. Only a few have been closed. I stand by them as good questions. I don't recall any being closed for this close reason. Yet none of them have contained a MCVE, and many of them have received significant up votes.

The obsession with an MCVE is a red herring. We want questions that are useful to other people. No question about debugging a particular program, even with an MCVE, can ever be useful to someone else. What is useful are questions of the form "why does API/language feature X have behaviour Y", or "how do I make X do Y", or "in which circumstances will X do Y". A debugging problem can eventually be narrowed down to a question of that form. But when it has been narrowed down like that, it isn't really a debugging question anymore.

A somewhat vague reason of "lacks debugging details" seems more honest. Frankly, I'd prefer a clearer "requires more debugging" as the close reason.

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  • Well good for you that you haven't asked any bad questions, for surely you are one of the few exceptions then. It is for example incredibly common that we get questions without the relevant functions or variable declarations present. Essentially: "here is some incomplete code which doesn't tell much please help". In the tags I follow, I would say we get somewhere between 5 to 20 questions like that every single day. Rather than having to type out something like "we can't tell why x + y fails because you didn't post the variable declarations of x and y", a link to the MCVE page saves time.
    – Lundin
    Oct 25, 2021 at 14:14

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