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Recently, Prashanth Chandrasekar introduced himself on Stack Overflow Meta and engaged with us. I, Aaron Hall, a moderator, wrote up my synthesis of where I think we currently stand, and I offered to meet with him. We did. My summary of the meeting is that:

  • Stack Overflow fully engaged on each issue and was not dismissive.
  • I did not feel patronized or talked down to.
  • I did feel they sincerely buy into the partnership with the community.

What follows is a more in-depth accounting of the meeting.

The new CEO, Prashanth, accepted my offer to meet.

At that point, I immediately went to work making notes to help me think about the situation. I applied every relevant mental framework I could think of. (See the source of this post for an abbreviated representation of the notes, which are html-commented out).

I also made an outline of what I wanted us to discuss, so I could record their response.

I took my notes and laptop to the company, arrived at 11:52, and was asked to wait in the mini-cafe by the front desk. At about noon, Ben Popper, Sara Chipps, and Prashanth Chandrasekar introduced themselves to me. We all grabbed a small plate of food from the cafeteria and headed down to a conference room.

I outlined my ambitions for the meeting.

Then we looked at my analysis notes and went back to the issues I outlined, where I took careful notes on the responses.

We had a small interruption for about a half hour, where Prashanth was called away, but asked us not to progress on the points while he was out.

I'm going to apologize up front to the individuals in the community. I may have missed an issue that is important to you. I may have mis-, over- or under-stated your case. I want you to know that I did my best to reflect the sense I can gather of the matters that I felt were most important to you.

A full transcript would have been impossible, and we did not make a recording, so I also did my best to be a good secretary, and take as good notes as I was able. Where I attribute and quote, "Stack Overflow," that is mostly CEO, Prashanth, but Sara and Ben also contributed here.

We spent the most of our time on the first few points. But I was careful to get responses on all of them. The remainder of this post has the points I raised, and the responses (as blockquotes), followed by my conclusions.

In General

  • Stack Overflow needs to get in front of issues before they become bad.
  • This is about feelings and emotions.
  • Users feel hurt.
  • We know employees feel hurt too.
  • We don't want people to be hurt.

Stack Overflow:

  • We (at Stack Overflow) are trying to define next era of company.
  • We wouldn't exist without the community.
  • Framework: community is foundational - under product, everything surrounds that.
  • Community has to be renewed.
  • Investment in community. Avoid being reactive.
  • Authentic voice of the company: action over words.
  • New processes to deliver.
  • Underpromise, overachieve.
  • Commit to get in front of problems before they get bigger.
  • This is the ultimate responsibility of the CEO, the buck stops here.
  • Stack Overflow spends a lot of time on these issues.
  • We need to explain the "why".

Firing of Community Elected Moderator, Monica Cellio

  • We, the community, assume Stack Overflow presumed bad faith on Monica's part.
  • We presume good faith on Monica's part.
  • We assert heavy-handedness, impatience, and lack of process on Stack Overflow's part.
  • We know the larger community cannot know the details.
  • Many users (especially moderators) have "Reinstate Monica" in their names and avatars.

(Note that we spent a good bit of time on this issue. I pulled up examples of moderators and users who feel so strongly about this issue that they have modified their avatars and usernames. I asked for Monica's unconditional reinstatement many times - when kindly rebuffed, I presented more information, answered more questions, and then asked again.)

Stack Overflow:

  • Legal settlement prevents discussion.
  • Anyone who was a moderator must go through the application for reinstatement process.

Community managers released from service

  • We, the community, assume they were fired.
  • We assume they were not fired for cause.
  • We know we cannot get more information.
  • We want you to bring Josh Heyer back as a contractor to contribute to community strategy.
  • Can he be eligible to run for moderator?

Stack Overflow:

  • Cannot comment on an employee that's no longer here.
  • We have huge respect for those who got us where we are today.
  • Anyone meeting the existing qualifications may run for moderator.

Licensing

  • MIT licensing of code was proposed, but held back due to community naysayers.
  • CC-BY-SA incremented from 3.0 to 4.0. - likely in good faith.
  • Vast majority of community likely fine with 4.0.
  • Vast majority not fine with fait accompli.
  • Some (a very few?) thought that this happened in bad faith.

Stack Overflow:

  • We have apologized for the fait accompli.
  • We want to signal our intent to keep up with future changes to CC-BY-SA.
  • We will create a process and be engaged on licensing issues on Meta.
  • We have had hours of meetings on this, and it is a big priority.
  • We have no intention of moving away from Creative Commons or paywalling users content in any way.

Minimax legal strategies

  • Minimizing chance of maximum loss will drive down the expected value of Stack Overflow.
  • Investors diversify to deal with this.
  • They want you to take the risks specific to you and reap the rewards specific to you as well.
  • We feel like the lawyers are in charge.

Stack Overflow:

  • We want an authentic voice in the community, not one characterized by buzzwords.
  • We're going to drive strategy, not our lawyers.
  • CEO will commit to continue posting on Meta at least quarterly.

Question Quality

  • Answerers feel like the quality of questions is in decline.
  • Answerers feel like the company doesn't care, and this motivates the "Welcoming" initiative.
  • Some users feel like Stack Overflow being support for platforms is a bad thing.

Stack Overflow:

  • Being welcoming is not mutually exclusive to question quality.
  • Question quality will still be gated by the mechanisms available to reviewers and answerers.
  • We keep a close eye on these metrics, product team is actively looking into it.
  • We've heard this, and it's making us look closer.
  • We want to maintain the site quality. We define it here.

Investment in tools and ongoing site development

  • We've seen indication of investment made in the past.
  • Users feel like we're not seeing more investment in improving the site.
  • We feel like this could improve the new user situation.

Stack Overflow:

  • We need the economic engine to sustainably invest back in the community.
  • We want to deliver in a product centered fashion.
  • How do we quantify this? The Loop.
  • We'll be publishing results from the survey that we just collected, which had around 5,000 respondents.
  • Along with The Loop, we also look to our site satisfaction survey, which reached around 10,000 respondents.
  • We want to be transparent about why we make the decisions we make regarding the site.

Being Welcoming

  • Most users feel like they're already welcoming.
  • To an individual user, it's always other users that are rude and unwelcoming.
  • If you tell me that I'm unwelcoming, I'm hurt and offended.
  • Instead of us all sharing the blame, we need to call out hurtful behavior when we see it.

Stack Overflow:

  • Site satisfaction survey still gives feedback that users' top concern is that they don't feel welcome. We need to listen to this data.
  • We appreciate that everyone means well and wants to help. Just getting involved in a community like ours signals that you want to help others.
  • Commit to being more welcoming while having high standards. Again, we believe a more welcoming community is not mutually exclusive with question quality.

Pronouns and future changes to the code of conduct

  • Intentional misgendering would already be considered abusive.
  • The vast majority of us understand the desire to continue to be more inclusive.
  • What is the process going forward to update the Code of Conduct?

Stack Overflow:

  • We want all users to feel respected.
  • We had users asking us for clarity around misgendering.
  • We want to be as understanding as possible.
  • We need all users to cooperate with the spirit of our policies.

What is the mission/vision of Stack Overflow

  • The mission that got us here is to create a repository of high quality Q&A.
  • This has evolved.

Stack Overflow:

  • We are still committed to creating a repository of high quality Q&A.
  • But our mission has also evolved.
  • For many years now our founder Joel and others have said our mission is: "Helping developers write the script of the future"
  • Recently our new CEO updated the mission statement: "Helping write the script of the future by serving developers and technical workers."
  • Changes:
    • adding, "technical workers," and
    • Stack Overflow is clarifying that we are, "serving."

How will Stack Overflow enshrine these commitments?

  • Promises are easy to make.
  • Promises are easy to break.
  • A balanced scorecard will allow management to
    • balance quarterly numbers with less tangible goals.
    • align non-financial goals with the overall strategy of the firm.
  • C-Suite accountability.

Stack Overflow:

  • We have rolled out 6 core values.
    • Community is one of these.
    • Employees that put community first will be rewarded.
  • We have defined top 5 strategic priorities for the year.
    • Community engagement and inclusion is an important priority.
    • Engagement is important to question quality.
    • We have specific metrics we want to increase.
    • How do we welcome more and more people.
  • Commit to fairness.
  • How do we quantify the qualitative relationship between the users and the firm
    • Surveys.
    • The Loop.
    • Friendly versus unfriendly comments.
    • We ask, "Are communities growing?"

Summary

In summary - I met with the CEO of Stack Overflow and some of his leadership team. They were all fully engaged with the discussion.

When they saw what I had prepared, and that I intended to make a full report back to the community, they wanted to extend our time together to immediately address each issue.

I felt that they were engaged on each of the concerns I raised.

I hope, as our partnership continues, that you get the same sense as well.

The question is, what do you think?


Response to comments

There have been comments that imply that vision and values are simply buzzwords that mean very little. I told the firm we either need to unpack these kinds of terminology, or avoid them altogether if it's not important.

So, since I think they're important, I'm going to follow my own advice, and do my best to unpack the meaning here.

Here's where I'm coming from: I have read many business textbooks written by, and taken many graduate level courses taught by, professors with PhDs in Psychology and Organizational Behavior, that assert vision is the foundational idea supporting the strategic management of the firm.

This is where we stop using, "management", and switch to "leadership".

Let me unpack these terms.

  1. Vision: This is what we aspire to be in the future.
  2. Mission: This states why we exist and what role we fit in society.
  3. Values: This is how we're going to do it.

It's true that these are words. They form a theory of how Stack Overflow (or any organization) is supposed to be run. We shall see how, in practice, they meet this theory.

The phrase, "gap between theory and practice" is a bit of a cliché (feel free to search it). As an organizational behavior professor of mine once said, "The gap between theory and practice is a lie." But the new management needs time to put its vision, mission, and values into practice. My ask is that we give them the presumption of good faith at this time.

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    Thank you, Aaron. I told you ahead of time in private that I thought you'd do a fantastic job as our "ambassador", and you have exceeded even my expectations. As you said, I'm sure you did not cover every issue or represent every single point of view, but you've done more than could have ever been expected, and this is a fantastic compilation.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 0:52
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    I'm seeing a lot of no comment, and "Employees that put community first will be rewarded." Is something... I feel hasn't been displayed, though of course they "Cannot comment on an employee that's no longer here." Especially taking into account what we've heard from the ex-CM team lately Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 0:52
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    Not saying all the answers make me feel all fuzzy and nice. It's far from perfect. Some of it is disappointing. But it's something. Thank you Aaron, and thank you Stack for engaging as well. Hopefully it's the start of a new future.
    – Patrice
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 1:04
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    Thank you for putting all this work in Aaron, I think you summed up most of the issues fairly well. Unfortunately I feel like I've learned very little from SO's responses. Do you feel like there are any notable new developments that came out of this meeting that haven't somehow been said by SO in the past? Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 2:42
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    Also, maybe I missed it in the swarm of meta posts, but do you know where We have apologized for the fait accompli happened? Can you edit in a link to that? I was under the impression that SO just did it and never looked back Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 2:43
  • 36
    Did you manage to get across to them that from our point of view, they are making blunder after blunder after blunder and as a result we have no confidence in them anymore?
    – JK.
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 3:47
  • 199
    I officially quit tracking stackoverflow saga development and participating. It sounds like you met with politicians and I see nothing encouraging here. Disappointing but not surprising. Thank you for your time and effort Aaron! Good bye!
    – gdoron
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 5:38
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    This feels positive, but it very strongly reminds me of how management spoke at my former company which has since blown up in a very public manner. What would convince me otherwise is if Prashanth followed-up your post here with concrete lists of actions that have already been taken demonstrating what they are doing to follow through on each of those major points and the rationale behind their actions. As they themselves state, "avoid being reactive" and "action over words." Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 6:32
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    Looks like lots of no comments and stonewalling. Also the ideas around inclusivity are too culture specific to be presented as being the majority point of view.
    – Frank
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 7:23
  • 55
    First, thank you very much for making this effort in our name! Second, please pass along our thanks to the SE staff for meeting with you. That being said, the problem remains that they can't or won't communicate with the community directly in any meaningful way. We should not be resorting to a proxy to do it in person. That's what we have the meta sites for. Finally, it's very noticeable that they kept the stonewalling and legal-speak on all core issues that led to this situation in the first place. These meeting notes are encouraging by their very existence rather than actual content.
    – Boaz
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 8:27
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    Also, are you going to post a version of this on MSE? I feel like a lot of this is relevant to the entire network. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 14:32
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    @DinoCoderSaurus: It's also a master class in wandering generalities, through no fault of Aaron's. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 15:36
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    This went pretty much as expected - it's pretty clear at this point what kind of organization SO has evolved into, probably for years. Volunteer contributors, take heed. What makes me sad is that they won't even grant the small mercy of putting Meta out of its misery. Oh well. Thank you Aaron for your time and impeccable organization and notekeeping - I'm sure I'm not alone in saying none of this negativity is directed at you!
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 19:05
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    No offense - sounds like the meeting was pointless. The answers are cold and condescending. Cannot wait for the next tool to be built!
    – JonH
    Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 14:01
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    While the summary is nice, and the bad answers give are out of your control, the conclusions you draw do not make sense. There is nothing given that would lead anyone to conclude that they care, as they avoided answering any of the important questions. You appear to have taken in by doublespeak, speech that appears to say something but really says nothing at all. Remember, how nice they make you feel is not indicative of whether their actions will be good.
    – trlkly
    Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 9:20

45 Answers 45

534

More Talk, Vagueness, Excuses

I'm not seeing anything fundamentally different from what we've been seeing for months, though it does seem more nicely delivered this time:

  • More statements that SE/SO cares.

  • Claims that certain goals are non-competing even though the community seems to notice this is not so.

  • No admission of wrongdoing and no transparent-and-concrete roadmap of stopping the harm that SE is still doing.

  • A dodge about the likely illegal relicensing, with no details on how it is handled from a judicial PoV.

  • A claim of focus on fairness, but a refusal to follow due process that SE supposedly bound itself to back in the day.

  • No improvement on the Monica front whatsoever.

  • A claim to all community-oriented, yet not engaging with the community over changes, instead unilaterally decreeing them top-down with minor consultation in the star chamber at best (but not a discussion with the community), or no discussion at all at worst.

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    "No improvement on the Monica front whatsoever": SEI and Monica made a legal agreement. We don't know the terms, but they almost certainly require in word and spirit that both parties do not comment further on the issue. Please, stop flogging this dead horse.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 12:56
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    @Raedwald That agreement seems to provide no appreciable victories on any of the goals Monica has put in front of herself when initiating the legal process, which is a serious grounds to suspect that Monica didn't consent to the agreement, but rather was coerced into it by way of SE presenting some sort of alternative that is worse than the initial state of affairs after the firing. And due to the gagging we have no way of finding out whether the suspicion is correct or not. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 12:59
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    @404 The legal action had goals set, which were not about money. We do not see any measurable improvements, neither among Monica's stated goals, nor among the goals the community stated such as ceasing the harm SE keeps doing to Monica. Given the recent behaviour of SE over the months, I do not think it would be fair to assume any actual improvement until we get evidence of improvement we can see. We certainly didn't see any of that in the report of the meeting. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 13:45
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    @EdekiOkoh I don't think so. What I read above is all made of manager talk+some amount of lawyer talk. I can't grasp even a tiny bit of sincerity or remorse from them.
    – Zhigalin
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 16:20
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    It's too late for them to reinstate Monica: she has decided to leave the network. Please see meta.stackexchange.com/a/342950/334566
    – PM 2Ring
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 17:23
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    @Raedwald The "Monica Front" is not restricted to only that which they cannot discuss. Their actions in firing the two employees is part of the "Monica Front." They could also address the way the policy implementation was handled. They could show they put faith in the community moderators. They could show a willingness to work with the community to make sure nothing like this happens again. The only thing they've done is fire more people, this time actual employees. All of this is "the Monica situation."
    – trlkly
    Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 11:17
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    +1. If it's the lawyers that prevent SO from being transparent and repair damage, then I'd say they need better lawyers. Corporate lawyers tend to make corporations behave in a corporate way, which has clearly been a bad way. I cannot trust a company that says it cannot make amends because lawyers.
    – A. Donda
    Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 20:02
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    Your characterization of the responses from the CEO rings false. The answers are not hollow and do afaict reflect an interest to engage the community. The CEO and the company are under no obligation to continue to support the Community in its present form. Although we feel it to be well advisable - that's their choice. Instead he has stated the intention to keep this going: and I for one appreciate that intention. Relentless doubt and lack of recognition of the engagement is imo not helpful: that was the impression I had as well before this Q&A. Commented Feb 8, 2020 at 17:01
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    @Raedwald: At this point everything Aaron brought up is a dead horse. There is nothing special about the "Monica Front" in that regard. Legal agreements can be modified easily and quickly if both parties agree to it. If SO decided to treat Monica fairly instead of like a bigot I doubt Monica would find that objectionable. Commented Feb 9, 2020 at 16:13
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    Further to @Raedwald's point, Monica's first and best advocate is/was Monica herself. If she wanted to continue the fight for reinstatement, she had that option. We don't know what was in whatever settlement she was offered, but whatever it was she must have considered it an acceptable alternative to reinstatement. We know this because she accepted it. Carrying on her fight, after she's decided to exit, is understandable but also misguided. The stakeholders came to an agreement. It may not be the agreement the spectators wanted, however the spectators aren't stakeholders in the dispute.
    – aroth
    Commented Feb 10, 2020 at 11:49
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    @aroth We the "spectators" ARE stakeholders in the dispute over how the company treats members of its community. Monica herself was merely a lightning rod example, a representative personification exemplifying the broader issues. I was temporarily banned for pointing out a falsehood in an FAQ about the same topic, in a venue for doing so! Monica has other things going on in her life. The company's lawyers convinced her that continuing to waste time & $ on a legal fight expensive in both would be net negative for her. They didn't fix the issues!
    – WBT
    Commented Feb 10, 2020 at 16:05
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    @Raedwald and others: Monica has expressed, here and more recently elsewhere, a desire to continue the dialogue, and a hope to settle things that are left outside the scope of the legal agreement; it is SE-corp who is unwilling to do anything about that, despite its community's stance. So please don't call her a dead horse. Commented Feb 10, 2020 at 19:17
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    @aroth It's technically still a possibility (but not a plausible one if SE-corp continues its stance), regardless of whether Monica would use her diamond after SE stops keeping her away from it. SE could also, you know, stop pretending that it's following due process, because the current Bad Stuff hinges on such pretences continuing. Commented Feb 12, 2020 at 11:44
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    I'd like to say something that I don't think has been said yet (or maybe it was and I missed it), which is that this gender pronouncs story is cultural imperialism. StackExchange is represented globally. You should not impose your own censorship rules on the globe (what China is partly guilty of too). And Monica should be reinstated immediately, no process, no settlements, no nonsense. Commented Feb 13, 2020 at 14:27
438

Aaron, on behalf of the Stack Overflow community, I thank you for making a good-faith attempt to engage constructively with Stack Exchange management.

Unfortunately it seems that they have lived up to the community's low expectations, and met your honesty with a whole lot of nothing.

Seriously, there is nothing in their so-called answers that is new, or concrete, or actually helpful in any way, shape or form. We are programmers, we live in the detail, and there is zero detail here. Zero, zip, zilch, nada.

As a result, my poor perception of SE management - including its new CEO - remains. Actions speak louder than words, and the actions from SE Inc. so far have been nothing but damaging. This political wiffle-waffle gives me little hope that there will be any positive actions from them anytime soon.

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    I mostly agree. Aaron's points were quiet good, I'd love to see them answered honestly. On the other hand, his post seems like a summary. It would have been better to listen to the talk in the form of a podcast, but I have to accept that such a thing would make them less open, thanks to the publicity and legal risks.
    – totymedli
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 13:25
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    In particular, the answers about Monica and Community Managers being released are extremely diplomatic. Later, ironically, a point is made about lawyers not being in charge. I was almost believing progress was being made..... (and I don't want to make this sound like a complaint. I am very sorry. Even resigned)
    – Attersson
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 15:33
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    Well, they said they are committed to the quality of content on Stack Overflow (no Eternal September mk II on Stack Overflow (the first on Stack Overflow happened in 2010)). This is contrary to the predictions of the undersigned, but I still think downvoting and closing will be removed in the near future (perhaps replaced with something to prevent the equivalent of Yahoo Answers or Quora (Yahoo Answers with slightly better grammar) where anything goes). Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 17:51
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    @PeterMortensen Maybe they are committed to quality, but some certain lower level of quality. Except for the question ask wizard there is hardly something been done to promote quality in the last time. Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 20:45
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    Isn't it a bit presumptuous to speak on behalf of the whole community? Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 11:52
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Community has to be renewed.

Community has to be 'renewed'??! Umm ... could you please explain to us the logic of this?

Why not improved and expanded but ... 'renewed'. Was the one from last year so bad that it has to be renewed?

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    I've never heard the community is like a magazine subscription analogy before. ;-) My guess is it means something along the lines of "rejuvenate" or "revived". Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 6:01
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    I think the word is intentional, because the current community is too "toxic" for some people, and hence the need to be "renewed"
    – Graviton
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 6:42
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    They have made clear that many of us leaving, is acceptable. Or as an SO user said "even experts are replaceable".
    – user
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 7:26
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    That's straight out of Newspeak. shiver "Out with the old, in with the new!" Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 9:00
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    It sounds like "We thank the existing community for getting us where we are now, but if you could all leave please and make place for a new woke user base, that would be great"
    – Alex
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 9:58
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    It's telling how much angst has built up within Meta, that this short answer has outscored several more thoughtful responses. I don't agree with decisions that were made, but judging a single word (which clearly may have one of multiple possible meanings) isn't a way to promote dialogue. The community, whatever that is, can't accept "no comment" on specific issues. That red line is toxic. The dialogue needs to move on.
    – jpp
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 10:24
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    Easy. Like a car: you ditch the old car, and buy a new one. Same with us: they want a fresh start. They're tired of the toxic active users so they'll do anything to discourage them and encourage newbies to become active and "supportive" of the company. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 10:27
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    What it means is that the CEO investors have an agenda about what kind of ethos they want to cultivate, and that the previous influencers, eg Shog9 etc, were at odds with them in how they want to shape things. By 'renew' they most likely mean 'reset' things so that community development is in line with strategy.
    – Frank
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 11:21
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    That's why I think they chopped Monica's head in the fashion they did it, to send a message to the "old" community: you're not welcome anymore, get lost.
    – brasofilo
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 13:07
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    @Frank It seems that SE are funding it themselves - attempting to grow the community. "growth" seems to be the thing that sells best to shareholders.
    – Vatev
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 13:45
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    Seriously? Is this what you all are offended about now?
    – user736893
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 14:38
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    @Devil'sAdvocate: I don't see much offense here. What I do see are vague statements by SE corporate that could mean anything. "We are writing the script for the future." What does that even mean? Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 15:39
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    @PeterMortensen: Sure. But it doesn't translate into any sort of actionable operating manual for the sites, policies, procedures or anything else. At the end of the day, it's just a slogan. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 16:34
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    Renewed means purged. History teaches us. The existing mods have to go, and new mods will enforce thought-crime penalties. Think about it - if you were the CEO, how would YOU monetize SE? By selling user's data and selling ad space. It's the only way. Therefore, expand the user base to everybody with a keyboard. Give away free badges / everybody gets a trophy (just like schools these days).
    – user2607743
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 14:35
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    @jpp Words don't exist in a vacuum. The meaning understood of a word is influenced by the actions of those saying it. And the definition of "renew" that is most congruent with SO's actions of late are of replacement, not reinvigoration. They fired the people who worked with the community, and seem completely unconcerned with all of the moderators leaving because of it, not even bothering to explain the firings. That very much suggests replacement. Furthermore, if someone is being misinterpreted, they will usually attempt to correct the misunderstanding. This has not occurred.
    – trlkly
    Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 10:30
262

Thanks for your efforts. You had a nice chat, but unfortunately that is all you (we) got, and maybe some sand in (y)our eyes.

To be honest, I never had high hopes something new (different) would happen, but I have seen stranger things happen, so...

Basically, we had two points of no return. One was Monica, and second were CMs. Both issues are not resolved. And without them being adequately resolved there is no moving forward.

Monica

I have never encountered Monica before she was fired. But in last few months I got to know who she is and what she stands for. I don't need to know exactly what happened, it does not matter. I can tell that Monica is nice person, much nicer than I am. If she is not welcomed here (and welcomed, means reinstated as moderator, without need to go through any process - because she has been wrongfully fired), then I am certainly not welcomed here either.

Firing Monica was a gross mistake, and obviously the company has no intention to correct that mistake (if they even think it was a mistake). There is no legal mumbo jumbo that prevents them doing the right thing here.

CMs - Josh Heyer and Robert Cartaino

Firing two highly respected CMs was even bigger point of no return. It clearly shows no intent or desire to cooperate and build the community. If you truly want cooperation, then you don't burn down the bridges and fire people that know how to work with the community and what the community wants and stands for.

Since firing employees is not something that is done without the CEO knowing and approving, chances that this could be fixed in any meaningful way was zero to none.

Also, why would anyone that has been treated so poorly by their employer go back?

If Shog9 and Robert want to be moderators, I would be first to vote for them, but again, why would they want to do that? What would they think they could accomplish here as moderators? Why would they invest their free time helping the company that clearly doesn't respect them?

Everything else is pale in comparison

The rest are just empty words... and more sand in our eyes... basically, the only two things that would show real desire for cooperation are still broken and will never be whole again.

Stack Exchange is symbiosis between volunteers (users providing content and moderation) and the company (providing the platform); without one there is not the other. It is clear beyond any doubt that the company no longer cares about volunteers and thinks they are not relevant for the future of the company. They want quantity over quality, no matter how much they say otherwise.

Writing the script of the future...

Sorry, I cannot parse that...

This is the end

I am not going away, because nobody tells me what to do, but I am done with contributing any content here.


I know that my stance may seem too hard. It may seem like I want way too much. But basically I want showing some respect to the people. This is the most basic thing. This is the line I cannot abandon, forgive or forget.


My comments on presented goals:

  • We have rolled out 6 core values.
    • Community is one of these.

Community is Monica. We are all Monica. Any single one of us can end up being in her place (yes, not all of us are moderators, but if you can mistreat the moderator, the question is what regular users can expect) Also, besides Monica, I have seen how some other valuable members of the community have been mistreated.

  • Employees that put community first will be rewarded.

How? By being fired...

  • We have defined top 5 strategic priorities for the year.
    • Community engagement and inclusion is an important priority.

Maybe it is a priority, but the approach taken is not working well since the company is literally driving away high contributors that were engaged the most (in positive ways).

  • Engagement is important to question quality.

It depends on who is engaging...

There is plenty of engagement from new users that post questions without reading the rules and that certainly does not have positive impact on quality. More engagements does not necessarily mean more quality.

  • We have specific metrics we want to increase.
  • How do we welcome more and more people.

I don't think that lack of people (new users) is an actual problem on Stack Overflow.

  • Commit to fairness.

How can we trust in fairness, when all company has done lately was treating people unfairly?

  • How do we quantify the qualitative relationship between the users and the firm
    • Surveys.
    • The Loop.

From what I have seen, surveys and The Loop have mostly been asking the wrong questions. I cannot envision getting really useful feedback and meaningful data from such superficial surveys.

  • Friendly versus unfriendly comments.

Being more friendly and nice is a worthy goal, but at the end of the day we are programmers, we are blunt, we are used to read short and straightforward instructions from compilers. We are used to communicate back the same way, without too many pleasantries...

I have already seen how good and helpful comments have been dismissed as being unwelcoming, so I don't have high hopes that this welcoming strategy will work out. It will only reduce the amount of really helpful comments and suggestions and increase overall dissatisfaction.

The main issue with the "unwelcoming" perception is because moderation will never feel welcoming. More on that topic can be found in my answer to Create a separate, independent Advanced SO focusing on being a knowledge library (but still part of the network)

  • We ask, "Are communities growing?"

That only confirms the quantity-over-quality approach.

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    Or, alternatively, you could stop caring about "Stack Overflow" and just use it as a resource for yourself. To polish up your resume, to stay up to date with new technologies. Would you refrain from posting on Microsoft Technet because Microsoft took away the start button in Windows 8? or would you answer the question. Stack Overflow is a business, we could all just stop caring about it and stop volunteer moderation duties and just use it as a resource to dump knowledge so you can google it easier, let Stack Overflow the company sort out the junk, spam, malicious content. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 9:43
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    @Tschallacka I don't have a problem with SO being a business. I don't have problem with SO making money. I DO have problem with active and gross disrespect and trashing people - both contributors and employees. This is direct insult and slap in my face, even though I was not directly involved. Sorry, that seriously changes nature of "relationship" between company and its users. This is not what I signed up for, and because of that I cannot continue like nothing has happened.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 10:06
  • 34
    @Tschallacka Besides above, I don't see any serious commitment to quality and that is the only thing that could eventually make me change my mind. In order for SO to be useful to me it must preserve quality, and I don't see that decline in quality can be turned around with any of the proposed actions (not counting the impact by some high contributors that have already left the site(s))
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 10:16
  • 7
    @mattfreake I used to comment, after welcoming wagon hit the town I mostly stopped because meta.stackoverflow.com/q/368072/4267244
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 13:08
  • 7
    "There is no legal mambo jumbo that prevents them doing the right thing here." There is a settlement, which is the very definition of "legal mumbo jumbo". They couldn't talk about Monica if they wanted to. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 14:31
  • 11
    @ChuckAdams I am not saying anything about talking or giving us more details. I am saying there is nothing that prevents SE to just reinstate Monica. If by any chance SE managed to get her to sign that "she will not be reinstated" so they cannot openly say that, again that was poor move on the SE side that didn't had to happen. Point is SE could do the right thing and just reinstate her, if they wanted. But they didn't and that says a lot.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 14:39
  • 3
    I am saying there is nothing that prevents SE to just reinstate Monica. ... assuming, of course, that she even wants to be reinstated (which I'd be amazed at, at this point) - Monica could quite easily prevent SE from reinstating her.
    – CD001
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 15:57
  • 20
    @CD001 Monica wanted to be reinstated. She said (wrote) that on many occasions. Also, she started legal action against SE to have her name cleared. Nothing could be better for that goal than reinstatement. She could always resign afterwards, if she didn't want to go back to moderating.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 16:01
  • 6
    She wanted to be reinstated - before it went as far down the line as it has done, with the legal outcome that has arisen. Are you sure that's still the case?
    – CD001
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 16:11
  • 3
    @Trilarion I would say your guess is a right on spot... will see how that works out...
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 22:48
  • 32
    It's not just about Cellio, Shog9 or Cartaino. Don't forget that a CM also banned R.Harvey for a year on Meta, which completely blew any chances (admittedly slim) of him being reinstated. You lose a player like R.H and then George Stoker followed by other moderators on SO, it means the site is not growing healthily. It means that quality checks will inevitably suffer. It means losing or sacrificing the very experts who posted high quality answers or made sure that the community was walking on common ground.
    – Mari-Lou A
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 11:33
  • 9
    Re: let Stack Overflow the company sort out the junk, spam, malicious content. (@Tschallacka) Yes. I think if the new Stack Overflow wants to be about monetary profit maximisation and not about community / volunteering then it can't pick and choose. If it wants to regard everything in terms of monetary value, then it must regard moderation and tidying up in terms of monetary value. Which means all those chores become the exclusive job of people who are paid by Stack Overflow and everyone else shouldn't go near such tasks. One really cannot have one's cake and eat it.
    – Rounin
    Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 18:13
  • 7
    There are many tags nowadays that are wastelands where most questions are bad and answers are worse, like python or unity3d. Without adequate moderation all tags will be like that and SO will cease to be useful and lose money. But they humiliated the people that was keeping the floodgates closed, now if they want quality they will have to hire someone to moderate each tag or else it will become yahoo answers. They are very unwise for a for-profit organization.
    – Geronimo
    Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 19:13
  • 6
    Let's not forget that the swagger packages at 100K and 250K were cancelled 6 months ago, and have not been replaced. If providing roughly 10000 hours of volunteer work is not even valued at a free T-shirt, then SE values the community at absolute zero. Commented Feb 8, 2020 at 15:28
  • 4
    "We all are Monica" -- well said. Commented Feb 9, 2020 at 20:35
154

I have to say I am rather unhappy with the CEO answers, which can be mostly described as "no comment", "we have it covered" and "we promise to do better".

But what especially catches my attention is

Being welcoming is not mutually exclusive to question quality.

While it is true that being welcoming does not necessarily have to be mutually exclusive to question quality, it certainly is for some values of "welcoming".

I would kindly ask you to refer to this meta discussion: Is this really what we should consider "unwelcoming"?

  • It is my understanding that for years we had the correct definition of "welcoming", the one that is appropriate for a community of professional and enthusiast programmers, very nicely laid out in the accepted answer of the mentioned discussion.

    One side effect of this attitude is that people who truly lack ability and/or desire to be programmers may feel unwelcome here. This is not because they are being harassed or bullied, but because they come here with the "write code for me" attitude and become offended when instead they are requested to do their bit.

Another side effect is that professional and enthusiast programmers who care and/or find fun in what they're doing may feel very comfortable here.

  • It most certainly feels to me that the new management has forced a different definition of "welcoming" over Stack Overflow, one that is not compatible with a community of professional and enthusiast programmers.

It is my understanding that this new definition of "welcoming" comes with such directives as "opinions are as important as facts" and "feelings are more important than truth".

It does not seem to me that the decision to push this new definition of "welcoming" was based on a rational analysis of causes.

It would appear that the line of thought was "some users say we are unwelcoming" - "surely this is because the community is sexist and racist" - "we need a 'Contains harassment, bigotry or abuse' flag asap".

I've been with Stack Overflow from the very beginning, closely missing the private beta. You would think that due to the law of big numbers, the content I've come across over the years would be a rather damn good representation of the entirety of the content, and I have not seen a single one comment in 11 years that would derogate anyone based on their gender, age or race. (Then again, another explanation would be that I am a seasoned bigot and as such unable to recognize them.)

I do not see how it would be possible to maintain the level of quality we are used to under the new definition of "welcoming".

One effect that is already prominent is that under the new definition of "welcoming", the direct and honest feedback from the community can be classified as "an attack" and deleted on that basis. I have seen it happening more than once, and it is scary, because each time it happens I have a déjà vu moment to this.

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  • Mr Deja Vu face says it all, "uh, ok, let's catch up later with the haters and bloggers", seasoned bigot indeed, lol
    – brasofilo
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 14:05
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    Is it so bad that now when people come here asking "write code for me" instead of abuse they just get . . . nothing? Because that's mostly what I see. We've just exchanged the belt for standing in the corner.
    – Daniel F
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 14:25
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    @DanielF what's wrong with silence in response to lazy questions? They fall off the radar, they're gone. Your disciplinary metaphors speak to everything wrong with SO culture. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 14:33
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    @DanielF I wouldn't even say that they used to get abuse in the first place. They didn't receive help and didn't feel welcomed, that is true. The problem appears to be that from their feedback the management inferred that the lack of help and welcoming is due to discrimination/bigotry from the community. A blog post was published that started the entire "welcoming" movement, where it was alluded that the discrimination certainly exists and must be stopped.
    – GSerg
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 14:49
  • 10
    @DanielF The community remained silent for about two weeks, but felt uneasy about the allegations, and then a "What, we are okay with this?" meta post appeared, which I cannot find now, so it might have been deleted. I do remember that it had a lot of upvotes, akin to the current meta posts about moderator resignations. In it, the OP laid out better than I ever could that Stack Overlow, being one of the most meritocratic communities around, does not have a problem with sexism/racism/*ism, but does have a bias regarding intelligence and attitude.
    – GSerg
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 14:49
  • 1
    What is the point with the YouTube clip? Can you spell it out? E.g. the owners claim the statements are outright lies. How would you describe your déjà vu moment in a few words? Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 17:43
  • 14
    @PeterMortensen My deja vu moment is that the owners keep receiving complaints from the customers, call them attacks, and blame the customers.
    – GSerg
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 17:59
  • 1
    " 'some users say we are unwelcoming' - 'surely this is because the community is sexist and racist' " I actually think it's the other way around. SO has been talking about gender and racial disparities for longer than they have "welcoming." I suspect rather that it was decided first that SO must be racist and sexist and then people labeling it as "unwelcoming" was used as an excuse to crack down.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 5:03
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    "the direct and honest feedback from the community can be classified as 'an attack' and deleted on that basis." That is exactly what SO's staff suggested: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/7753287#7753287
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 5:09
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    @jpmc26 They did that to me (in addition to Monica and the CMs etc) and I don't doubt they'll do it to others.
    – WBT
    Commented Feb 10, 2020 at 16:21
  • @GSerg let's not forget banning posting a link to "what have you tried" and "how to ask a good question"
    – Eonasdan
    Commented Feb 11, 2020 at 19:36
96

As I look at your summarized answers, I see a lot of "I acknowledge what you say, I understand where you're coming from and which voices you represent, but here's how I ignore it and present you how we're going to do it."

I believe Mr. Chandrasekar has a full intention to make Stack Overflow successful, growing and better, if only because it would look good on his résumé. The only worry I have is that Mr. Chandrasekar has relative short experience on our platforms. He has a few points in a couple of communities here and there, but hasn't really dipped into us sort to speak.

What I'd love to see is that Mr. Chandrasekar would actively join the discussions, even with an alternate account, and just join us in answering, voting, flagging, going through the queues, gathering badges, just to get to know the experience, the thrill of helping someone, the frustration of encountering low quality questions, the hurt when you get a downvote, the biting down and improving the question when someone comments something that in your mind didn't need improving, the resignation at times as a greenhorn questioner turns into a help vampire. This can go for any community he's interested in the subject, but preferably Stack Overflow because that's the real cash cow.

I still detect a form of "distance" in the answers. Someone who has heard and read reports and makes a decision, but hasn't lived it. It's really easy to live it with us, just join in and answer, use the community that's so precious, get a feel for the differing opinions, the different experience levels answering the same questions, the feeling awe and competition to try to be the best answer. The drive to improve when someone else posts a gem of an answer and you feel that could have been you.

Welcoming

Now a big theme that resurfaced in this theme can be worded into the welcoming initiative. A lot of people find answers/comments/downvotes rude, unwelcoming, harsh, offensive, etc. Looking at it from my perspective as answer giver/newbie question improvement helper perspective, it's really darn hard to be welcoming.

  1. Problem: Some issues really need a 1-on-1 chat with a user to explain all the the wrong things with the question. People do not read How to Ask. But you can't just pull someone into chat from a question. You have 600 characters to do it, which honestly if you want to phrase comments politely you sometimes really need more. And spamming a question with multiple 600 character comments is frowned upon, as we are not a forum after all.

  2. Many times when you're working with a questioner to improve their question, the question is closed and the questioner stops responding to comments and the question dies. Imagine how it feels for the questioner, when you're actively working with someone and your question is closed. It's like a slap in the face and they simply give up and move on instead to learn how to improve the question.

My proposed solution is that someone with enough rep, who is willing to help new questioners can "sideline" a question, pull it from public view and simply work with the new users to help [insert pronoun here] reformatting the question, which parts of the help were violated and how to search existing answers, and if they do not fit how to note that in the question. When completed the question would be re-inserted into the normal question flow.

Now I would have posted that as a feature request, but I know from years of experience that Stack Overflow categorically ignores complicated feature requests like that, and I'm just not wasting my time on that. This could also be constituted as me not feeling welcome here to voice my opinion.

I think we should have the ability to interact more freely with new users, to guide and teach the, being able to pull them into chat to help them on the way, to explain to them that their closing of their question isn't personal, but professional. Where we can explain to people that we are not a forum, but a community of professionals and hobbyists that take their hobby serious and that we like to "formalize" things and that it is most of the time not personal, and if it turns personal that they can flag for moderator intervention.

People simply do not read the Stack Overflow introductions. They need that human touch to be able to understand. That way you turn the Stack Overflow perception into a community of hard guys that pick on newbies, into a community of people who simply follow certain rules.

Profit

Mr. Chandrasekar wants to make Stack Overflow profitable. I have no issues with that, and that should happen too, so we have a proper backing behind this community that helps us find the answers we need. I do not want to return to the days of Google page 4 or page 27 of forum Y only to find "nvm guys, fixed it."

I do feel that it would help a lot that if Mr. Chandrasekar, or another Stack Overflow representative would present ideas that affect us as a community and perception of us as a community to us, and allow us to voice improvements on the product and possible gotchas on it. You've got free crowd sourcing here of people who care. Use us. It makes us feel wanted, heard and special and part of the Stack Overflow identity.

Make profitable ideas, implement them, be successful, but be inclusive. We want to feel welcomed by Stack Overflow. Not feel like an afterthought that never got to voice their opinion on meta.

The Loop

I like that there is a survey to "poll" how people feel, but I dislike that only certain types of people fill out such a poll, and then even not consistently every time a new poll is opened. You get a broad overview of what people say, but you have no idea what those people feel that don't like to work through a poll. Sometimes answering a question on Meta is easier than filling out a poll, because it's easier to work out in words what you want to convey.

I would like to see the loop accompanied by questions on Meta and the community-specific meta sites. I hardly ever am on the main Meta, but I'm relatively often here on Meta Stack Overflow as a lurker. That way you get a broad poll of site-specific communities.

In short

I want to serve the community, I want to help, but I do want to feel like the company has got my back and cares about me as a contributor, instead of a cash cow/number/expendable asset.

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  • 1
    Good points. But I don't see Prashanth (the CEO) creating a dummy account to try answering even for a few days. Besides, the community is not only strict with the quality of questions, it is nearly as strict with the quality of answers from new answerers. He might end up having a very bad impression of the community instead. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 13:44
  • 5
    @Nisarg I disagree about that. Usually people comment with what's wrong with an answer. If you can step over your pride and improve your question downvotes are reversed. We don't need rubbish, we just need answers following the guidelines. And only this way he can experience what everyone experiences, that there's a high standard to be held to, and that when you gain more experience trying to achieve that standard you understand why that standard is important. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 13:48
  • 1
    I am not saying that he will definitely run into poor responses. But he may run into criticisms or maybe even unexplained downvotes. (After all, it is not mandatory to explain downvotes.) Plus this is all hypothetical. Such an endeavor will likely never get prioritized and may not even be considered seriously. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 14:10
  • 1
    That is not to say it is a bad idea. It is just a prediction based on recent actions of SO. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 14:10
  • 2
    Re community of professionals and hobbyists that take their hobby serious: But there is the expectation out there that it is also for (absolute) beginners (justified or not). Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 17:24
  • 3
    Re "Stack Overflow categorically ignores complicated feature requests like that": It is not only Stack Overflow. The meta crowd is very conservative and don't want any change besides small tweaks (especially if it lowers their future rep "income"). In fact, such changes can only come from Stack Overflow itself, but the question is if they are actually capable of innovating. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 17:25
  • Re "And spamming a question with multiple 600 character comments is frowned upon": I don't see how length (if it is about the question) is a problem. After this, it should summarised by editing the question (so no one else needs to read through the comments). The (now obsolete) comments can also be flagged for deletion. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 17:27
  • 5
    @PeterMortensen: I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of people who care enough about the site to participate on Meta have long since stopped caring all that much about imaginary internet points. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 22:20
  • 6
    More to the point, would PC really be able to ask/asnwer any questions? It seems his early engineering days are far behind him stackoverflow.blog/2019/09/24/… Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 22:26
  • 2
    I've never even heard of this "Loop", and was really confused by its mention.
    – Izkata
    Commented Feb 8, 2020 at 2:16
  • 1
    "Many times when you're working with a questioner to improve their question, the question is closed and the questioner stops responding to comments and the question dies." - just for emphasis: closing a question does not in any way "kill" it; in particular, it does not prevent OP from editing the question and it does not prevent further comment exchange. The only thing it does immediately is to prevent answers. This is by design. Closing a question makes it easier for OP to fix problems, because there is no risk that intervening answer attempts sidetrack the attempt. Commented Dec 15, 2023 at 5:42
  • "My proposed solution is that someone with enough rep, who is willing to help new questioners can "sideline" a question" - that is what closure is. "pull it from public view" - that is what downvotes are (or at least, the closest we get). "and simply work with the new users to help" - that is what (constructive) comments are for. Commented Dec 15, 2023 at 5:44
94

This is a hopeful sign for me. I've written elsewhere about my experiences as a CM and, while this came too late for me, it should be encouraging to people who are still working at the company. I won't go into detail about the specific responses to these questions except to say that they are not surprising to me. (Well, that there are 6 core values rather than 5 is a bit surprising.) They more or less match what I heard internally.

Since I first met him, Prashanth Chandrasekar impressed me as an excellent listener. He's made point of listening to members of the community, including interviewing someone during our Austin meetup in front of the entire company. Overall, this is a step in the right direction. Nothing can be improved until Stack Overflow leadership truly understands the difficulties the community is facing.

I sometimes worry that "Community" is an ambiguous word. Common definitions involve people who come together for a common purpose or have some relationship with each other. But it can also be applied to people who are gathered in one place without any particular regard for each other. I recently read an article called "What Is Community Anyway?" (by David Chavis & Kien Lee) that helpfully explains:

Just like Russian Matryoshka dolls, communities often sit within other communities. For example, in a neighborhood—a community in and of itself—there may be ethnic or racial communities, communities based on people of different ages and with different needs, and communities based on common economic interests.

When a funder or evaluator looks at a neighborhood, they often struggle with its boundaries, as if streets can bind social relationships. Often they see a neighborhood as the community, when, in fact, many communities are likely to exist within it, and each likely extends well beyond the physical boundaries of the neighborhood.

Without defining "community", statements like "Community engagement and inclusion is an important priority." are ambiguous. We tend to read into them what we want to hear. It's important to understand that Stack Overflow leadership defines community quite broadly to include people who don't participate in Meta, don't participate on the main site and, in many cases, don't see any value in doing those things. I occasionally heard "community" to include customers who don't engage with the public sites.

That's not a bad thing, mind you. Narrow definitions of community can be quite harmful as they exclude people who should be involved. But the broad definition can gloss over real concerns of subcommunities. For instance, I've seen a willingness to give up certain types of community engagement and inclusion if it appears they might interfere with other, more desirable, types of engagement. Again, this can be the right choice. I'd be interested in more clarity around the company's specific plans with subcommunities.

One of the issues I've seen over the years working for Stack Overflow is that the company underinvested in onboarding new users. Many initiatives, including a promising mentoring program were given less support by leadership than I believe they warranted. Unfortunately, the failure to guide new users has resulted in far more antagonism between new users and the existing community than is strictly necessary. Initiatives attempting to address the problem tend to be shallow and lack follow-through. For instance, the new contributor indicator has not been updated since it was introduced. As far as I know, it has been entirely ineffectual in its current state.

For a long time, I warned internally that the company was incurring competitive risk by not addressing problems such as the drop in answer rate. Even when there were more community managers, I pointed out that important community work was left undone despite our best efforts. Listening to volunteers who contribute content is the right direction in which to move. What I'll be looking for next is meaningful investment in the community.

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  • 62
    While I agree that it probably doesn't make sense to define "community" as "the subset of highly-passionate users who frequent Meta", I cannot understand how it makes sense to define "community" to include people who "don't participate on the main site". If you aren't participating in asking questions, answering questions, or moderating content, and aren't interested in doing those things, then I cannot see how you are part of this community. (You are still, of course, part of the larger world community, and that means we should treat you with respect and dignity.)
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 2:47
  • 10
    ... underinvested in onboarding new users. Yes this. As a relatively new moderator on a smaller site it is super frustrating to me to watch otherwise well meaning participants be so clueless about the basic workings of the site. Then I have to remember how much time and effort I had to spend divining through the tea leaves how things worked.
    – Stephen Rauch Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 4:55
  • 27
    @CodyGray: I think the way to think about it is the developer community. For years that's been the sole focus of the business and so it makes sense as a target for engagement. That partially explains the super weird exclusion of some of the most active users (who aren't developers) and the desire to include people who don't want to be here. And I should note this is not unique to Stack Overflow. At my new job I see tension between the company and the community because of conflicting goals. It requires ongoing effort to reconcile. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 5:04
  • 15
    Hrm, you make "community" in SO-speak sound as if it might mean "reachable market" which, if that were the case, would make it much less comforting.
    – tvanfosson
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 20:27
  • 2
    More on onboarding new users. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 22:13
  • 13
    The problem with this very wide definition of "community" is that the vast majority of that community will be people who only come to SO via a Google search and don't interact with the site in any other way. Purely by the numbers the the interests of all other groups on the site will seem irrelevant. But this overlooks that without all those other groups the Google searchers won't have any reason to come to SO in the first place.
    – sth
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 22:34
  • 18
    Specifically SE only seems to ask the question "why don't those Giogle searchers interact more", which most likely would be by asking questions. SE doesn't seem to ask why those people come here in the first place or why they would want to ask questions - to get answers. This thought seems to be completely absent from the company, there seem to be no metrics or KPIs that measure if people get the value for which they would come to SO, which is answers to their problems. SE completely seems to miss that you can't have useful Q&A site without answers.
    – sth
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 22:44
  • 4
    The point about different definitions is insightful, and thanks for making it. Unfortunately it doesn't really resolve in the company's favor. If $SPEAKER is repeatedly using a word in a completely different way than the people they're talking to, and not sharing their special definition, then they are somewhere on a continuum from dense, through rude, all the way to gaslighting. The exact point on that spread depends on their intentions, but in no case are they effectively carrying out a dialogue.
    – jscs
    Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 2:27
  • 12
    I do not like this post. What we saw is not encouraging at all, because there is absolutely no indication of any listening going on at all. Listening doesn't mean hearing what people say. It means listening to their concerns and dealing with them. Someone who listens to someone's concerns will 99.9% of the time change some actions to deal with those concerns. Instead, what we got was a bunch of corporate doublespeak that ultimately boils down to "I'm going to do what I think I should anyways."
    – trlkly
    Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 12:10
  • 6
    I am also disheartened by the other stuff in this post. Your impression of your former boss isn't really relevant. Doing interviews isn't really relevant. This is about "did he listen to the concerns of those of us on Meta or the moderators who are leaving, putting the place in danger?" Similarly, the exact definition of "community" is a sidetrack. The problem was never that they decided to be more inclusive--no one would be upset if Monica wasn't fired and these other guys fired in an inconsiderate way--the very people who speak for us. What you did is basically PR speak, too.
    – trlkly
    Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 12:13
  • 1
    @trlkly: That's a fair criticism. I did end up writing more on my blog. Still, I stand by what I wrote here because the community doesn't usually speak the same language as leadership. It's frustrating, I know but trying to meet people where they are is really the only way forward. You don't need my permission (but I'd gladly give it) to ignore my post. ;-) Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 19:53
  • 1
    "Stack Overflow leadership defines community quite broadly to include people who..." - I think a better term for this would be "userbase". A community has to involve interconnection, otherwise it's just a bunch of people. The idea of engaging with a community is that you talk to some people, then those people talk to others etc, so you end up with shared understandings. Engaging with your userbase individually is a bit different and not what we at meta are interested in. Commented Feb 11, 2020 at 7:20
92

Legal settlement prevents discussion.

That is an excuse. And like all good excuses it is shrouded in a veil of truth.

There is nothing in that settlement or any other settlement/contract which prevents the involved parties to unanimously agree on modifying said settlement/contract. Thus discussion is possible if the involved parties wish for such discussion.

Furthermore, any restriction on discussion is there in the settlement just because the involved parties agreed on said restriction. And we all know which party pushed for such restriction, the one which did not spend months here repeatedly asking for discussion and clarification before giving up.

So the honest answer would have been: SE does not wish to discuss this issue. And we all know why.

It is impossible to have a normal relationship like this.

We have apologized for the fait accompli.

That was in violation of the license you were granted. A violation which happens each time you distribute a contribution made in CC-BY-SA 3.0 without including the license as required by CC-BY-SA 3.0 . So it is not just a fait accompli. It is an infringement which continues to happen each day. Apologies are not enough. Stop infringing on our copyright.

If you feel that the other license, the Terms of Service, grants you the right to publish those contributions under CC-BY-SA 4.0 I'd like to read from you about that. Because so far you've not made such claim. You've never explained what gives you license to distribute under CC-BY-SA 4.0 content provided before the change.


And to Aaron, thanks a lot.

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    I take significant umbrage with the framing of a legal settlement as an "excuse". Once it reached the state of litigation, it truly left our hands and fell between the aggrieved party and Stack Exchange. Being upset that they're not also letting you into the conversation is inappropriate, as you are not a party to the actual lawsuit.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 17:12
  • 18
    @Makoto The meme that the community's (or any individual community member's) requests, demands, ultimatums, or whatever you want to call them are inappropriate or unreasonable needs to die right now. Anyone can choose, and should feel free to say, that if SE does or doesn't do X, they will or won't do Y, where X and Y are literally anything legal. Right now, a large number of experts are refusing to contribute new content until SE does X, and you in particular seem hell bent on suppressing that conversation when you should be encouraging SE to engage in it. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 22:45
  • 2
    @Makoto I disagree, but I don't take umbrage on your comment. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 22:47
  • 3
    I have posted an answer with regard to licensing. Feel free to check it out. Let's just say that this matter is still not settled — I'm currently seeing if the arbitration agreement is even enforceable.
    – jhpratt
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 2:36
81

This is about feelings and emotions.

No, it's not. That mindset is what created this situation.

This is about doing the right thing, regardless of how people feel. Not making people feel good. Not avoiding or curing all hurt. I have no faith that anything positive will be accomplished as long as this is SO's mindset. We cannot trust them to do the right thing when someone's feelings are a higher priority to them.

The moment you agreed to this, you lost all hope of making anyone at SO rethink their stance. This is the foundation of the moral framework guiding all of this: feelings are so important that we cannot make people uncomfortable with our words. When you accept that way of thinking, you reinforce their beliefs. Rejecting this doesn't mean we can't have any standard for professionalism, but we have to be willing to allow some hurt feelings for anything (not just our situation, but literally anything) to improve.

I get it. It feels nice to care about other people and to make them feel good. This perspective is so seductive, but it's harmful as a foundational principle rather than a secondary purpose. It's harmful because it's impossible to apply absolutely to everyone at all times, and the inability to resolve the contradictions leads people to instead pick and choose whose and which feelings they protect. Inevitably, they make a destructive choice in their efforts to protect the feelings they have chosen, casting aside any consideration for the people hurt by it.

We, the community, assume Stack Overflow presumed bad faith on Monica's part.

I don't, at least not in the sense that they believed Monica was intentionally malicious or deceptive. My presumption is simply one of a faulty, inconsistent moral paradigm on SO's part.

Being welcoming is not mutually exclusive to question quality.

It is according to the people who talk about it being difficult to participate in this community. Their complaints typically center around our quality controls. At a bare minimum, we certainly cannot make both the highest priority. One of them must suffer.

We want to maintain the site quality. We define it here.

Actually, they define it here. The blog just links to that.

This is an inappropriate definition of quality for actual measurements. Voting is in many ways dominated by factors other than quality. Closure is less so, but the available close reasons intentionally exclude some major quality issues (like lack of research). As a heuristic that humans examine personally on a case by case basis, it's not quite so bad, but for aggregate measurements, it's not worth the pixels it's displayed on.

Commit to being more welcoming while having high standards. Again, we believe a more welcoming community is not mutually exclusive with question quality.

No, they don't. There is no world in which they actually believe this enough to live by it and one of their remaining community managers would tell a user to "see a therapist." That happened to me personally.

  • We want all users to feel respected.
  • We want to be as understanding as possible.

Sorry, but this just isn't true. I can personally attest they had no concern for making me feel respected. They showed absolutely no understanding toward me.

And if you think I'm not worthy of respect or understanding, they certainly didn't show anything like it toward someone who clearly earned it: Monica.

The long and short of it is that there's nothing new or helpful here. I'm sorry you wasted your time and couldn't see through the smokescreen, but they're just making the same statements that their actions have always belied.

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    This is an inappropriate definition of quality for actual measurements. -- Not for those who pray at the Altar of Big Data. ✞ Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 1:58
  • 8
    @RobertHarvey nor for those who are looking to close the deal. The metrics are just a way to persuade they buyer. You don't need to actually believe it yourself. After all, who am I to decide what the buyer should believe? They have free will and may know better than I even. Just close the deal. youtube.com/watch?v=Q4PE2hSqVnk Cynic me? Nahhh... twitter.com/gortok/status/1218171812737101827 "psychopath-Silicon-Valley-executives" Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 9:45
  • 3
    "feelings are so important that we cannot make people uncomfortable with our words." -- but they are making a lot of people, long-time users and mods, intensely uncomfortable and very angry, and they are perfectly happy about that. So that's just more babble. Feelings are nobody's priority here; I assume maximizing the selling price of the site is a priority. I have no idea where the pronoun holy war fits in; maybe that's just the orthodox religion of silly valley executive-suite sociopaths, so it's part of the whole package. Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 19:29
  • 1
    @EdPlunkett Please read two paragraphs later. What I describe is literally the basis of a political movement that's anti-free speech on transgender issues, and it's the same argumentation SO has been using. It's illogical, yes, but that's my point. The moral framework is faulty and self contradictory, but they don't care. They still use it as a justification for promoting their preferred social classes. You really think Chipps or Tim Post are in this for increasing the sell price? I seriously doubt it. Others in the company certainly are, and they consider their goals in alignment for now.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 8, 2020 at 6:13
  • 3
    The trap of "Feels" over "Objective Quality" is what is destroying western civilization. It really is just that simple. IT, being based exclusively on meritocracy i.e. A program is letter perfect and works or hopelessly wrong and does not work, was the last bastion to be attacked by this cancer. Fun Fact: the 346 people that died on the two 737 Max crashes would have probably preferred a good design properly implemented as opposed to a "welcoming environment". The laws of physics are immutable.
    – Terry
    Commented Feb 10, 2020 at 17:11
  • 2
    @Terry Even though I more or less agree with your overall point, I disagree that IT is the last bastion to be attacked. I'd say math was, although it is under attack as well. I think that is because IT has a more direct, wider reaching impact and awareness, which made it a more attractive target. Additionally, there is some sense in which a program can work sometimes, rather than be "hopelessly" wrong (despite still being wrong).
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 10, 2020 at 17:24
79

First off, let me say thanks for doing this. I've been where you are (carrying community concerns, in person, to people who make the decisions that affect the community). It's never an easy thing to do because there's a lot of competing interests and ideas.

I wanted to note something disheartening, however.

We need all users to cooperate with the spirit of our policies.

I don't think he gets why the pronoun thing has the community up in arms. The spirit of the policies, right now, is fear. Monica was fired because she asked about the unintentional effects of the policy (perhaps not in the best way, but certainly not in any way that warranted the response). Part of the reason moderators are still resigning is they feel, in no small part, like they will be asked to take similar action against users who cross that line. There's something deeply wrong with your culture when it takes legal action just to get people to apologize.

Shog9's loss meant that the one person who was publicly distressed over how the situation was handled was no longer there. He was someone who actually listened to the community at large. And some of his words are still haunting

Been saying goodbye a lot lately. Lotta noise on twitter, so I wanna make something clear: these are good people who care deeply Stack Overflow; they're leaving not because of the work in front of them, but because they feel we don't have their backs.

While I applaud Prashanth for meeting with you, it's also clear the corporate offices are filled with people who don't understand the community they've been employed to run. As long as fear is modus operandi of Stack Overflow, the community will continue to flounder. If he wants to change it, here's a great place to start.

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    While I'm not a big fan of apologies, it does take acknowledgement that mistakes occurred before said mistakes can be rectified, and papering over it with a new process (akin to changing the rules in a basketball game while it is being played) is not the way to do it. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 16:02
  • 8
    Isn't it ironic, that the exact same senior managers who think there's no such thing as a bad question, sacked and repeatedly publicly slandered someone because they didn't like the way she asked them a question. There's no "spirit of our policies" for us to follow when they casually ignore both the words and spirit of their own policies any time they feel like it. Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 6:28
74

What do I think?

Typical CEO Jargon

When I first found this site it blew me away with just how much information was packed into it. I learned how to code almost exclusively because of SO (Though I learned to code right through working with people). And while I never asked a question, the community that built this website took care of me. And when I began to feel savvy enough to try to start answering, the company behind the website began to push for an increase of noise and performed a lot of terrible public missteps in very quick succession that still dazed that community that helped me get where I am today.

I never felt unwelcome, that was not why I never asked a question. I understood that the site's mission was to answer questions, not do homework. And when I did the homework, I found the site had already answered the question I had.

Perhaps the part of this that really 'grinds my gears' is that after witnessing years of requests for tools to make the lives of those who volunteer their time in maintaining this site, when asked about investing into the site, the response is:

We need the economic engine to sustainably invest back in the community.

You need the community sustainability to invest into your economic engine. If you want to drive new users to the site and have them feel welcomed, you need to invest into making sure that the users understand what the site is designed for. Of course someone who has no idea what the site rules and etiquette are asks an off-topic question that gets voted into deletion is going to feel unwelcome. And while you have made some progress in the direction, there is still work to be done and plenty of suggestions of how to do it if you looked. You need to stop putting all the blame onto the users who are trying to maintain the site.

Site satisfaction survey still gives feedback that users' top concern is that they don't feel welcome. We need to listen this data.

That is going to be a constant pain point. You will never be able to satisfy everyone, ever. Not in a thousand years of data collection. Period. This is a global website, there are cultural, linguistic, religious, and so on differences around the world. I get that money is king in the eyes of the company, and new users with more exposure to your paid services is the goal, but if you keep at it in this way where you pit everyone against one another and then tell everyone to play nice:

You're gonna have a bad time

It would be nice to see some real actions towards repairing what they continue to insist on breaking by 'renewing' the community and start unifying the users. This drive keeps insisting that I am a bad person and need to 'commit to higher standards'. I truly hope they don't think that about the majority of their users and that was just a quick note obfuscation.

I have high standards in my eyes, so much so that I refrain from asking questions whenever I have a problem and insist on finding the solution by breaking it down (on SO). I have also refrained from answering questions because of these high standards. It's perhaps these high standards being the reason I don't think SO is unwelcoming in the first place.

Sites like this should have high standards, and with those standards, it should be understood that not everyone is going to be able to meet them. I think it's in the interest of the company to understand this and either make the decision that this is now a homework site like its competitors, or concede that some of the reasons users feel unwelcome is on them and to fix it isn't to just impose new rules, but to invest into the new users' understanding of what these sites are and how to use them.

At the end of the day, I'm just a vampire with near nil rep. I'm neither a new user or a heavy contributor so I don't imagine making any mark. But some of these people have been trying for years to help, with much more experience and passion towards building this site. I hate seeing them washed with being 'unwelcoming'. I really would like to see the company taking some responsibility and action towards 'repairing' this and stop 'renewing' the community.

Whew, I must have been thinking a lot...

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  • 40
    You are not a vampire. You are who this site was built for. Thank you for your passion, your understanding, and your dedication. A few years ago, I would have welcomed you to this community and encouraged you that you were going to do well here. Now, I can only say I'm sorry that SO is what it has become.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 4:23
  • 15
    "Sites like this should have high standards, and with those standards, it should be understood that not everyone is going to be able to meet them." - indeed. Lowering the standards to the absolute minimum just to be more "welcoming" to anyone seems like nonsense to me. Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 18:30
  • 9
    I think SE management oversold a prospect of the company to someone. They could have easily made a decent buck for decades of SE, but they want to make a BIG buck quick. Nothing wrong with that, except that maybe they hyped future value too much. Now they are trying to pump the metrics high enough to justify whatever potential they sold it as having. My 5 cents at the moment, this is just a "theory" I have, nothing substantial behind it. They are playing awfully hard and fast though: opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/9276/… (Hi RageFoxx) Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 9:40
  • @MarcoBonelli my experience with discussion forums has taught me that whenever you think you have lowered the standards to the absolute minimum, there is still far to go. Commented Dec 15, 2023 at 5:02
66

Thanks a lot for your effort, @AaronHall. As for me, this is an official confirmation that there's no point in trying any more.

Summary: "we (SE Inc) hear you and give lip service to your proposals, but we are not actually going to listen, la la la."

60

With regard to the answers given, I would like to offer a short story of what "addressing the core problems of a business that is struggling with its reputation and a lack of trust" can look like. Not because it is a direct analogue to SE's current situation, but because it highlights the things that matter to customers and one way in which a new CEO with limited experience in the "immediate domain" of a company was able to produce a marked turnaround in both the company's relationship to its customers, and the staff's belief in (and ability to fulfill) the "mission statement".

I apologize for not being able to point to an external reference on this; if anyone is aware of one, I would greatly appreciate a pointer. However, I was personally present as an employee for the relevant part of the company's history, and anything written in the first person is from my own recollections (meaning that it may be biased, "fuzzily" remembered, or otherwise suffer some inaccuracies but is a personal attestation).

The setting is Qwest, Inc. shortly after the SEC scandal and all of the related chaos. Hiring is largely frozen, many employees have little faith in the company, and customers have almost none. I don't recall if they were the second-worst or flat-out worst of the telephone carriers in customer satisfaction, but it was… bad. You could feel it pervading the entire company; it is hard to respect yourself or take your work seriously when the company as a whole is literally a household name for bad customer service.

In comes the new CEO, and we hear the basic drill that everyone mostly tunes out to, about turning the company around, lots of work to do, etc, etc. Sure, great, I'll believe it when I see it.

And then something interesting happens: at the first "real" all-hands meeting (as in, the first one after the CEO had had enough time to actually do anything or transition in), he gets up on stage and starts to tell a story. And it isn't a story about how he turned some other company around, or how great all of the employees are, or how we need to tough it out.

No, he tells a story about how in his first week, he arranged to spend a day "in the trenches" — the first half of it undergoing the call center new-hire training (well, an abbreviated form of it, enough to familiarize himself with the tools and basic requirements) and the second half taking calls, unfiltered, directly from the queue.

At this point he has the audience's attention, because everyone even those who haven't ever had to deal with those queues, knows what the calls are like. And he made a point of not taking escalations or otherwise 'filtered' calls. He wanted to understand the real situation, on the ground, as an anonymous voice that the customers would have no knowledge of or reason to behave unusually with.

Many of the calls were mundane, which is no surprise; any company, even with the worst ratings, will have some reasonable level of competence or they simply won't be in business anymore, even if they started as a monopoly. But he told us that he got one call that really shaped his understanding of the situation, profoundly: a woman who called in for the fourth (I think) time, in tears, saying that she wasn't upset with him, but she needed to escalate to a manager because the situation was just that bad. The zinger on the story was, of course, "Well, ma'am, you have a manager now."

Great story, right? Only it didn't stop there, and that's the thing that mattered. He instituted a new policy, effective immediately (or at least "over the next couple of days", but not "as soon as we can", much more concrete than that): no matter who you were, or where in the company, once a customer call "touched" you, you stayed on it until it was resolved. Because the root problem he had observed was that even without folks actively "tossing it over the fence" there was so much confusion about who was responsible for what, or could do what, that it was difficult to get even simple things fixed, and literally impossible if the thing actually needed more than one department, in most cases.

He also made it clear that management understood that it would absolutely trash call times and massively increase the load, and that this was not going to be treated as a failing of the call centers; they hired more call center employees, changed the systems to be more effective at routing people to the right queue in the first place, put in messages explaining what was going on to customers so that expectations were set before the customer ever spoke to an employee, and a variety of other efforts.

The interesting thing? Within a month or two, call volume was actually down, because it was being handled so much more effectively. The company slogan was changed from "Ride the Light" (nice but fundamentally meaningless) to "Spirit of Service", and the new slogan was given much more than lip service. The company certainly still had issues and struggles, but it was a profound change, top to bottom, precisely because it was coming down from the top based on the needs at the bottom. If some middle-manager's fiefdom was causing turf wars, it got split up, without mercy. If an initiative turned out to be a bad idea, it was either cancelled or suspended and the resources redirected to something else, without it becoming a blame-backstabbing fest, just a simple acknowledgement of "well, that didn't work out, what did we learn and what can we shift to that we think will do better?"

Speaking as a customer of the company, it made a very perceptible difference in the short term, and that rapidly built upon itself as the improvements continued, month over month and year over year, and within a few years neither I nor others (at least according to the satisfaction surveys) dreaded calling for service. It might not have been the favorite activity of the day, but it was a "non-event": you got what you needed, in an efficient and pleasant interaction, if there were problems they got resolved, and you could basically trust that the company was going to treat you like they valued you as a customer.

Speaking as an employee, the difference it made was vastly more profound. As with customers, it did take some time for things to turn around, but the signals from "on high" were not only clear, they aligned with reality, and there was a real sense that while the upper management might or might not have known the every-day travails of those on the bottom run, they cared about them and were willing to invest real time and effort into learning enough about them to figure out ways of resolving them.

As I said, this isn't a blueprint, and not all of it applies directly. For example, SE's model is much closer to a "volunteer" organization, with the customers being those who just show up to ask questions or find existing answers to questions others asked, and the population who focus a great deal on answer being a different "tier" more akin to volunteers. And as with many volunteer organizations, there isn't actually a "bright line" between those two: many volunteers start as "customers", and frequently current volunteers may need to step back from that role if other demands require their attention. But the volunteers are the public "face" of any such organization, and if there is any significant or widespread discontent among them, your customers aren't going to get a good experience… nor, if you are a business with volunteers (as opposed to a purely volunteer organization) are you likely to be successful.

The lesson I take from all of this? A good story helps to sell people on a vision… and if you're in a bad situation, you're going to need one in order to convince people that you've made a clean enough break with whatever was causing the problems that they're willing to grant you any benefit of a doubt. But you must follow through on that, sooner rather than later and in "a big way", or they're simply going to decide that the story was nothing more than a pretty lie, and it will be that much harder to convince them to ever give you a third chance.

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  • 2
    That last sentence is key. Epic post - very relevant and simple.
    – HTTP 410
    Commented Feb 9, 2020 at 23:29
  • 10
    A fantastic first meta post. You are a demonstration of a reality that SO veterans have been harping on since the beginning of the "welcoming" push: that it's the content that matters, not who posts it. The "welcoming" push has never been aligned with the reality users of the system face. Thank you for adding your voice.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 10, 2020 at 15:42
  • As a point of data, I've used SO/SE for many years but don't "look" like a veteran because I tend to be looking for answers to specific issues. I also have a lot of sympathy for the "welcoming" movement in some senses, but admit that it is extremely challenging to balance the legitimate need to make a space "inviting" but also retain the qualities that make the space attractive in the first place. And the most recent issues feel like they have some specific additional complexities. Maybe it is time to ask a couple of meta questions myself… I think some things are easily overlooked. Commented Feb 13, 2020 at 16:35
  • Sadly this story have less than nothing in common with SE and it's new CEO, the "question" you're answering demonstrated it fully.
    – Zhigalin
    Commented Apr 29, 2020 at 8:21
59

"Community has to be renewed"

What does that mean? Community has to change attitudes or community members that fight against the "plan" have to be replaced by others. Probably a little bit of both.

When the CEO asked what we think of the future of SO it didn't feel right. We have written hundreds of pages of our thoughts on their plans, yet he asked again. So what was the real question then?

Was he asking "what should I do so that the community keeps on working while we implement our plans"? Until the renewal takes place.

Political ideology and religion

Could you ask them next time if religion or political ideology played any role in firing SE staff and mods? For example Shog9 had in his profile:

Tilting slightly to the right

and

Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

The last one is from Ecclesiastes.

Caleb quit saying:

I will not be able to sign the new CoC if –as they have adamantly insisted will be the case– it includes a requirement for pro-actively taking action in affirmation of something I fundamentally disagree with.

Perhaps not so coincidentally, Monica too is religious and she was fired.

Religious individuals are more likely to react to the [forbidden to speak about] CoC changes. Therefore, more likely to be fired. I don't expect a real answer, to be honest, but it would be nice to see their reactions.

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  • 34
    You'll never get an honest answer on this question. Confirming this would make Stack Overflow so liable and on the hook for big bucks. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 9:25
  • 8
    Also, it would make it impossible to sell SE,Inc.
    – MSalters
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 11:23
  • 35
    We'll just have to wait a few years for the general consensus to realize that gender identification proponents are not so far from religious, with a complex set of faiths and unspeakable things that gets one expelled from the religion. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 12:39
  • 10
    I keep discovering that more of the ex mods and formor staff are religious, it seems mostly active Christian with a evengenical/pentecostal/charismatic "outlook". Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 13:51
  • @IanRingrose who else was religious?
    – user
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 15:25
  • 3
    @Fermiparadox Sorry I am not going to post information I have seen in people's twitter and blogs etc that they have chosen not to put in their profiles. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 17:20
  • 16
    @IanRingrose: I'm not particularly religious (not in this context anyway). I just recognize a political trojan horse when I see one. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 17:29
  • 5
    @Fermiparadox I'll point out that several national evangelical churches in Europe went with ordaining woman, gays, and lesbians as priests. It seems the consensus among catholic clergy is pronouns should be used in accordance with the other persons wishes. The CoC regarding pronouns is actually in line with significant sectors of institutional Christianity today. (The explanation of why and how, is certainly far too complex for any SO thread...It would also be illegal to fire someone based on their religious convictions.)
    – bad_coder
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 18:10
  • 8
    @bad_coder I m not saying they were fired because of their religious beliefs, but rather because of disagreeing with the CoC due to their religious beliefs. As for some churches being fine with it, sure. But most probably aren't. Especially non-christian ones.
    – user
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 18:44
  • 1
    @IanRingrose: Now that makes perfect sense.
    – Joshua
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 3:26
  • 11
    @Fermiparadox Most of them don't even really seem to disagree with what the policy is suggesting, but they probably have a problem with absolute forced compliance. SO has made it clear that they don't want to give people with other convictions room for some kind of peaceable alternative compromise. That's probably what got Monica and them fired, and it's why many religious and non-religious mods resigned so quickly.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 16:58
  • 6
    I have another take on this: maybe it's not a coincidence that people of faith believe passionately in community and have many 'pastoral' qualities.
    – Benjol
    Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 16:47
  • @bad_coder usage of pronouns is not an issue that concerns religious institutions. But the Catholic clergy is certainly of the opinion that someone's biological sex is more relevant to society than a subjective and fleeting feeling of "identification". Commented Feb 10, 2020 at 20:07
  • FWIW, I'm a socialist atheist and I find the CoC massively disturbing.
    – einpoklum
    Commented May 8, 2020 at 21:38
57

With regard to licensing alone:

  • We have apologized for the fait accompli.

When a moderator has to ask you to sit down for an interview, and has to tell us that himself, that's not an apology. That's an act trying to cover your butt. If you have apologized, by all means, show me and the community where. I certainly haven't seen it.

The "change" is not irreversible. All that has to be done is acknowledge that contributions prior to September 5, 2019 are not and never were released under the CC-BY-SA 4.0 license. That would satisfy the community's concerns over copyright violations (which number to the tens of millions).

  • We want to signal our intent to keep up with future changes to CC-BY-SA.

Then write this into the ToS, and never make a change that affects any contributions under anything prior to this change in the ToS. Until then, I am still of the opinion (as are a number of others) that this move was illegal.

  • We will create a process and be engaged on licensing issues on Meta.

I am all ears.

I created a post on meta SE where I ask a basic question. This was never answered.
I sent a number of emails to both team and legal at Stack Exchange. None of these were ever answered.
I have pinged community moderators in an attempt to get contact. None were successful.

So please, tell me and the community, what do you classify as "engaged"? You certainly have not done so even under the loosest definition possible.

  • We have had hours of meetings on this, and it is a big priority.

  • We have no intention of moving away from creative commons or paywalling users content in any way.

Good, because moving away from Creative Commons retroactively would be illegal. All you are able to do is say that new content is not available under any FOSS license.


I sincerely hope Stack Exchange answers my numerous attempts at contact, but until then, I am currently in contact with JAMS to see if the arbitration agreement is even valid. I have a little money from a GoFundMe (which is still open), so don't be surprised if you hear from an arbitrator or court of law.

The clock is ticking, Stack Exchange.

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    A "fait accompli" implies that it was actually accomplished. It is not at all clear to me that it is in fact accomplished, since it appears to run directly afoul of the license terms. Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 2:39
  • 1
    No, the decision is not reversible. If they went back to 3.0, they'd be stuck with a few months' worth of contributions under 4.0: it would be a mess. That's why serious people don't do relicensing out of the blue. But then, until January 2020 SE didn't have any senior legal person in its team, apparently. meta.stackexchange.com/a/343033/248268
    – Nemo
    Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 17:27
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    @Nemo When I say "reversible", I'm referring solely to the attempted relicensing of content prior to 2019-09-05. Everything from that date forwards is correctly proclaimed to be released under the 4.0 license.
    – jhpratt
    Commented Feb 6, 2020 at 19:23
  • 1
    @jhprattGOFUNDMERELICENSING Sure. But if they went back to 3.0 they would no longer have a single license for all the content. So in practice it's not reversible.
    – Nemo
    Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 20:43
  • 7
    @Nemo That's their problem. They wanted to make a unilateral change without running it by the appropriate people, they have to deal with the consequences of handling two licenses in perpetuity. They wouldn't be "going back" to 3.0 — it is and always was.
    – jhpratt
    Commented Feb 8, 2020 at 3:41
  • It's everyone's problem. The copyleft license is for us, the community and the people. Were it for the corporate overlords, I'm sure they would have preferred to keep everything proprietary, like Quora.
    – Nemo
    Commented Feb 8, 2020 at 7:40
  • 1
    opensource.stackexchange.com/questions/9276/… Commented Feb 12, 2020 at 13:49
  • 2
    @Nemo, you can not change the license of my content, neither can SE. If SE goes around misrepresenting the license of my content, it's their problem. The lying is their problem. Commented Feb 12, 2020 at 13:50
  • @Prof.Falkencontractbreached Yes. And having an inconsistent license would be everyone's problem.
    – Nemo
    Commented Feb 12, 2020 at 16:08
  • 1
    @Nemo are we in violent agreement? It would not be, but it is - the licenses are inconsistent. SO just tells everyone otherwise. Commented Feb 12, 2020 at 16:40
  • @Prof.Falkencontractbreached maybe, or maybe not. That the re-licensing was illegal is something still to be conclusively proven in court, while if they went back it would be certain. There are no good options left for SE now, it's too late.
    – Nemo
    Commented Feb 12, 2020 at 20:46
  • 2
    @Nemo, right... in the same way Grooveshark was "maybe ok" until they were shut down. There is nothing "maybe" about the so called relicensing. Or may I offer you a copy of the latest Star Wars movie under CC-BY-SA 4? ;-) I received it on Bluray with some random license but I just relicensed it to CC-BY-SA 4. Commented Feb 13, 2020 at 9:18
50

I was a little skeptical when you mentioned meeting with them to have a discussion on behalf of the community, but this exceeded expectations. Well done. Your framing of issues, documentation, and presentation here are fair representations for the most part.

Regardless of my impression of their response, I would call the meeting overall a success.

The clear downside is that the outlook here is doomed. This is just more of the same from a group that no longer includes anyone with experience at Stack Overflow.

  • Once per quarter wont cut it, this isn't a scheduling issue it is a response issue; responsiveness by the company is failing, the messaging is empty, and the follow-through is hollow

  • Surveys are a terrible representation of the current state of the exchange

  • It is clear that the lawyer mentality is strong here

  • Controversial personnel associated with causing the lawsuit as well as those historically involved in lawsuits need to walk

  • Stack Overflow is not a school

  • Stack Overflow does not service users who are looking for free work

  • Absolutely no consideration is given to the fact that if there is competition to the Q&A model Stack Overflow may lose its answering base which is a non renewable resource

All the Stack Overflow community wants is to help others, and to solve problems. Management was silent for a long time while the company grew exponentially. Alienating the community and being heavy handed with management just gets in the way of growing the site.

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    The meeting certainly was a sucsess in that it probably achieved all it could have achieved. The actual problem is that it never was bound to achieve very much in the first place. Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 12:52
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    "A group that no longer includes anyone with experience at Stack Overflow" -- that's the whole story in a nutshell, eh? When you get to that point, it's a bust-out. They'll trash the thing for any reason at all, or none, because they don't understand it and they don't care about it. They'll drive it like they stole it. If there's another decent question-answering/asking site out there for programming, I'd love to hear about it. Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 19:12
  • 2
    @EdPlunkett efforts are underway to create a new one, open source and community-owned. Look up Codidact. Commented Feb 11, 2020 at 18:16
  • 1
    @ChrisBaker Very interesting. Thanks. Commented Feb 11, 2020 at 20:59
45

Iceberg? What iceberg? We don't see any!

The strong contrast between the dire warnings of the Meta community, for example in the answers to the recent contribution of the CEO (the iceberg metaphor), and the missing recognition of any such risk by the company in their official statements as well as the statements given here, is striking. Time will tell if it's growth or shrinkage. My money would currently be on shrinkage and I don't think they make a convincing case for the opposite.

A slogan is not a vision. The current mission of StackOverflow is unclear.

"Help to write the script of the future" is so vague that I would not call it a vision or mission statement. It could really be anything and rather sounds like a slogan. I might have a few ideas what it could include, but I might err. The mission of StackOverflow should be clear, so that everyone can understand it. I really hope they have more details on that and I hope they find ways to share them. For the moment I would assume that they do not have a mission that is really well defined. (compare with "build a knowledge base of high quality programming Q&A" to see a difference between a slogan and a mission statement)

Do they underestimate the value of the Meta community?

Meta is out of the loop, it doesn't play any formal or significant role any more, neither in the definition of community nor in the quantification of the relationship between company and users.

I'm the first to agree that Meta users are only a tiny subgroup of all users (or even potential users) of StackOverflow, but the value that Meta users offer is far above average. So what does it mean in the end? How can the value of Meta be determined? They seem to have come to the conclusion that the value is rather low in the big picture. Could be wrong.

Monitoring quality only doesn't cut it.

They say that they monitor quality of the content, and that is really good, but unfortunately not enough. Quality is dropping and actions to counter it must be taken or the iceberg will come and get us all. The link for the definition of quality refers to How is question quality measured in A/B tests? by Jon Ericson from 2017 and according to that the quality steadily decreased over time and is continueing to decrease.

Unwelcoming is a buzzword, it can mean anything and should not be a metric by itself

The surveys are so superficial, nobody knows what unwelcoming really includes. Are downvotes unwelcoming? Is not giving answers or closing questions unwelcoming? What exactly is unwelcoming? And what can be done about it without lowering quality? I really hope that unwelcoming can be broken down into more meaningful subcategories one day.

There has been no engagement over the license change.

There was only the announcement and later a single answer iterating, both heavily downvoted at the time being and nothing really about the motivation and legal perspective of the change. I'm very critical of it and I'm not satisfied by these statements here either.


So, that are the main critical points I see. Which doesn't mean that I disliked all I read, some things I even liked, but I want to wait more and see how this plays out before giving out praise.

Thanks Aaron for doing all this work in such a professional way and thanks to the company for engaging with single persons. Maybe next time they could post on Meta as well. The promise of the CEO to post at least quarterly on Meta, compared to the thousands of posts from Jeff Atwood ... doesn't look so well. Well, the past is the past and that is that.

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42

To start: thank you Aaron and Prashanth for taking the time to meet and compare notes; I think it's a unique opportunity for us to share ideas with each other directly.

I'm not sure if Mr. Chandrasekar will read this post, but I would like to offer an observation to help diagnose the disconnect between SE and users. There's a bit of irony in the wording of this goal from SE:

Authentic voice of the company: action over words.

...as that is precisely how we arrived at this point today. In fact, I think it's this statement that will baffle (or anger) people the most. To put the obvious out there: actions are worth more, and words are worth less. The actions shown recently are the very things sinking the ship, and I have to say that there are a lot of questions that feel like they got non-answers. I see this particular setup and inevitable process meltdown happening more and more:

  • An action happens which is very much against the community's will.
  • SE cannot, or chooses not to undo/modify the action to fix the wound, and:
  • SE cannot, or chooses not to give any words to explain or placate the lack of response.
  • Bonus points: SE does a new $thing or writes $post which makes it significantly worse.

There are a lot of interesting talking points in the above transcript summary, but if we're being honest I have a feeling that they will be overshadowed by the two largest issues which the community wants closure on (Monica and the CM's). Sadly, both of these fall into the above "cannot change, cannot comment" bucket, and if you truly cannot give us an action, and you truly cannot give us any words (justified or otherwise)...what do you have? There's not much.

I genuinely hope that this can be a turning point, but the sheer number of non-answers is going to make it an extreme uphill battle to restore any sort of trust.

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    Given the realities of business and the US legal system, there realistically is not much more that we can expect to see in terms of answers or closure with respect to Monica and/or the firing of the CMs. It’s painful, but we’re going to have to just move on if we can. Hopefully, the management team has learned something: you can’t act first and then think later, so you need to think first before you act. And hopefully that thinking will involve some consideration of the community who has been so actively invested over the years in building these sites and making them into the force they are.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 20:34
  • 5
    @Cody Gray (but also others in general) While I agree that there isn't much else they can do at this point, the correct answer is "recognize that you're about to put yourself in a bad situation, and stop before you do it." Otherwise it is absolutely fair that people will continue to call you out for failing on it; your inability to fix it does not make the problem stop existing, especially when it is of your own creation. Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 2:31
  • @CodyGray Agreed. My point wasn't meant to be a "give answers or else we won't play ball" message, but an observation that if A) SE is serious about turning things around, but B) no more can be said on the stuff people are most concerned about (which I both expect and understand at this point), it will probably be a more difficult road than they may expect.
    – Arkitekt
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 14:47
37

I think the responses given by Stack Overflow are still vague and the statements made by management do not delve much into specifics as per your notes. I was expecting we would be getting a better understanding of the situation that arose a few months back and a genuine response by the management. For example,

  • Anyone who was a moderator must go through the application for reinstatement process.

This doesn't address the fact that Monica was fired before the updated reinstatement process and moreover her firing skirted the process which was already in place.

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    That was more or less addressed in the legally required Meta.SE post. They made that process available and Monica chose not to go through it. They now can hide behind the legal agreement as to why they chose to do that. FWIW, all we'll ever get is Monica's side.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 15:41
  • 16
    And not for nothing, but that saga is over. Stack Exchange had many, many opportunities to make that right, but they never did, and now it's not going to happen. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 15:42
34

First of all, thank you Aaron for this account which highly helps in understanding (guessing) what is under the water in the new directions that SO would like the site to head.

Next, I must warn that English is not my first language, and I am more at ease with technical questions, the reason why I only seldom write on Meta.

But I want to say that CEO's answers worries me a lot.

The positive point is that they have met you, and spend time for it. But I am really disappointed with the content. What follow is just my personal opinion.

For anything that only requires words, Prashant has been quite nice: he does not want that anyone feels hurt, he has huge respect for people who brought the site here and he is engaged with the community.

But he has not given anything requiring acts (except for meeting you): nothing for Monica, no explanations for Shog9 or Robert Cartaino, while this would not have costed much.

Your account looks close to a political speech: I love you, you have already accomplished fantastical things, and together we will make even greater ones. But on the how to do that, Prashant seems ready to listen to us (the community) but not to take what we say into account.

Now, I will focus on the welcoming part. I really think that SO site is not friendly for newcomers. This has been discussed a number of times, but we still have not found a way to be more friendly without being buried under the number of poor questions. I have spent quite a lot of time in answering questions and I tried hard to never be offensive, because a new user may have little knowledge in programming techniques (else they would post more answers than questions) and little knowledge in the site rules.

And most of the high rep users's answers that I see are kind too. But I also think that I prefer spend time with someone that does its best to help me to understand their problem. I am not paid for that time, and it is not my job, so I shall only to it if I find some pleasure in it.

When I find some code, some context, and when I can feel that the asker has already done some research (just a little, and only what a true beginner can do), I can find pleasure in sharing what others have taught me. And if I can think that someone has learned something I am glad for it. And I assume that most community members are not that different.

But when I find a question with no code nor context, where someone just want me us to do their job, I am just not inclined to post an answer. At most, I can try to post a (always polite) comment saying that the poster should read How to ask? to post a question that could be answered, and I even try to say what IMHO should be added first.

What worries me now is that I really think that the number of poor questions is growing.

So what I wanted to say that the rules for what are acceptable questions are certainly not perfect, but they constitute a good balance between what askers would like, and what answerers would prefer. And the fewer people will want to post answers, the worse for askers.

If the CEO wants to improve the rules, why not? Prashant and his fellows certainly have nice ideas, and I would be glad to have precise proposal to discuss. But what I currently see is Monica's story where an elected moderator was revoked. And that is not the way I would like a community to be managed.

My feeling is that Prashant is ready to meet community members to explain his goals, but that he is not ready to take what we have to say into account.

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    In the monica case, there has been some legal arrangement that prevents both sides from giving any details. Do you really expect the CEO to violate that agreement?
    – BDL
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 12:47
  • 9
    @BDL I don't. But what I would expect of an honorable person who's in charge: renegotiate with Monica, have the "do not discuss" nullified, reinstate Monica, remove the employees that directly led to the situation (or change their roles so they can't make any decisions), and publicly apologize for allowing these actions to occur on their watch. Do I think that will happen? No.
    – mason
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 14:19
  • 12
    @BDL There is nothing legal that prevents (or prevented) SE to just reinstate Monica after they have reached legal agreement. We don't need to know details. Just reinstating would be enough. On one hand SE says this whole incident was "some sort of misunderstanding" on the other hand Monica is still fired... so actions don't follow words... If it was misunderstanding, then why wasn't she reinstated?
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 14:23
  • 31
    On being welcoming to newcomers: I've been here a long time, and have tried a great many things with new users. I was even a Stack Overflow moderator once. My advice? Let the system work. Use your down votes. Cast your close votes. Confine your comments to simple observations about question problems, clarification about the specific problem they're asking about, and links to the Help Center. New user education is SE's problem; let them fix it. If that's not welcoming, then it cannot be done. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 15:23
  • 2
    Thanks for this answer. I like that it goes straight to the core of the problem, which is how to make StackOverflow work for askers and answerers. It gives me a lot of food for thought. I have to admit that I sometimes just downvoted where I could have taken the time to comment more and although I also always tried to be polite and friendly, it may not always have worked. I also think that a huge negative score creates more trouble than is worth, but I also saw so many unanswerable questions, that so much time is wasted searching for good questions. I honestly don't know how to solve it. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 22:27
  • 2
    @BDL except that it was SE who forced that part of the legal agreement
    – Zhigalin
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 17:11
32

It may be the brevity of your notes, but the SO/SE responses seem trite and repetitive - every issue raised as a pat answer we've heard before or some soundbite.

I would like to ask if this is the impression you got or if perhaps you may have over-summarised the "what" while missing out the "why" and "how" of protracted discussion.

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    Unfortunately, I think this was inevitable. There was surely a fairly detailed dialog, but Aaron has been asked to summarize in one post what would normally take several posts to describe in Meta, and some of the details were bound to get lost in the translation. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 23:01
31

Pronouns and future changes to the code of conduct

  • We want all users to feel respected.
  • We had users asking us for clarity around misgendering.
  • We want to be as understanding as possible.
  • We need all users to cooperate with the spirit of our policies.

Regarding this, one more thing that I need should have been brought to the company's attention is the moderators' attitude towards company criticism. When the disastrously badly-received Pronoun FAQ was first published, many people have been critical of it, but the majority of critics - myself included - were and still are driven by sincere and rational reasons, not prejudice or intolerance.

My own post was well-received and made it to the crowded front page, when it was suddenly deleted without explanation. I spoke with the moderator responsible and the only reason he gave was that his definition of the word "gender" differed from mine - as if adopting the established meaning of gender as a synonym for sex somehow makes me a bad person, or is ground for deletion. After asking how I could convey my message in a manner they approved, he accused me of bad faith before abruptly leaving the chat.

I re-worded my answer taking into account the flimsy feedback I got and re-submitted it. I was then straight up called names in a suspension notification signed by 3 moderators. Further feedback was, of course, ignored.

To say that the entire experience was unwelcoming would be an understatement - it seems that a significant number of the moderation team is hell-bent in its commitment to impose compelled speech, and values the subjective feeling of being offended as grounds for removing content that is not, itself, inherently offensive. The impression I get is that the decision of whose feelings to protect is very much arbitrary, and its purely ideological roots are out for everyone to see. This dogmatic attitude is no doubt a key component of the "purity spiral" that has led to such a rift with the community recently, and one that the company keeps refusing to acknowledge.

Finally, just as I noted in the original thread, it needs to be pointed out that the term "misgendering" is inherently ambiguous as it depends on someone's definition of the term 'gender'; I believe it should have no place in official statements.

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    You're not alone. I first voiced my opinion to the CoC change as an answer on Meta SE (which was promptly deleted by CesarM), then in my profile (which got silently deleted by an unknown moderator or staff member). After reaching out to moderators and staff for weeks through all channels I could think of without getting an explanation for the deletion I put my statement back up. Which then got me banned for a week, because apparently saying "how anyone can't see the lunacy in pronoun proliferation is beyond me" is now hate-speech somehow. [1/2] Commented Feb 11, 2020 at 8:34
  • 8
    One thing I find particularly telling is the fact that the Meta SE question (screenshot) where I asked for the reason and documented the responses (or rather the lack thereof) has been deleted by one of the moderators who delivered my ban. [2/2] Commented Feb 11, 2020 at 8:34
28

How will Stack Overflow enshrine these commitments?

C-Suite accountability.

Stack Overflow:

How do we quantify the qualitative relationship between the users and the firm
        Surveys.
        The Loop.
        Friendly versus unfriendly comments.
        We ask, "Are communities growing?"

uh-huh. So the c-suite accountability basically is "how many users did we add", a theme that ran throughout the entire interview. I think I can safely say that is all they care about.

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    Well, to be fair, whether communities are growing or not is a reasonable proxy for how well the site is doing. Whether the market for such communities is saturated is a different question. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 16:52
  • 5
    Yes, it is clear that is the goal of the bean-counters. It may not be sexy, but it is practical and easy to understand. Now, the question we have to ask ourselves is, how can we help the C-suite achieve their goals with minimal conflict to ours? Is that synergy possible? I think it may well be.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 20:30
  • 2
    you can't count how many users you gain, unless you also count how many users you lose. A new signup counts, an old account that no longer signs in, still counts too even though the total is nothing but an misrepresentative number.
    – gbjbaanb
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 15:37
28

Vision and values cannot be imposed top-down

Did they literally say that "6 core values" were "rolled out"? Vision and values are not a software code change or a form of cheese that you package and get out of the door. They need to roll inside your office doors (from the community, including users and employees) just as much they need to roll out of them.

I've never heard of this new supposed set of 6 core values. Searching for core values and variants finds nothing. It seems they weren't discussed widely or explained: is this some secret document contained in a handbook for employees or something of the sort?

Some terminology probably got lost in transmission, but that's not the transcriber's problem: it probably means that whoever said whatever was said on this topic is unable to communicate it. Probably because they don't know what they're talking about. I hope Stack Exchange Inc. hires somebody who knows how to build a vision for a community-based (and copyleft) project, real fast.

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    Management communicating vision, mission, and values is foundational to directing strategy in an organization. I did not get the sense that they were prepared to share the list at the moment, but they did say that they enumerate values and that "community" is one of them.
    – Aaron Hall Mod
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 15:53
  • 1
    I have to agree with Aaron on this one. That's very much how actual leadership works. Commented Feb 12, 2020 at 8:39
27

Fantastic job Aaron!

On the face of it, that sounds encouraging. Hopefully something that the community can build on.

Just a couple of follow-up questions that I wasn't clear on from your description.

Did you get any sense of movement on their part as a result of the discussion? Or was it just them clarifying how they were right?

From Jon's answer, it sounds like the CEO is a good listener. The next, harder, step is being able to put yourself in the other person's shoes and understand why they feel that way.
Sounds like they emphasized that the community was important to them. I know a lot of people haven't been feeling that lately. I wish there was some way to nail that down more. Did they seem to have any sense of why people feel like it is not important to them?

Anyone who was a moderator must go through the application for reinstatement process.

Did they express any remorse for how Monica was treated, or how she was removed?
Did they see that forcing her to go back through the process was interpreted as denying that they did anything wrong?
Did they see that if they could find a way to reverse her removal, it would be a huge step in the right direction, in a way that putting her back through the process could never be?
Did you sense that there was any reason they couldn't take a mea culpa beyond pride and refusal to admit mistakes? That doesn't make sense to me, but I struggle to find another reason.

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    And I’d like to know: Which of the answers to these (good!) questions does Aaron feel (or know) would be hidden behind that “can’t discuss this for legal reasons” and thus won’t be answered? Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 8:05
  • 22
    "silicon valley psychopaths" are always good listeners, they are the ones who will make you feel good, will listen, will make you feel like you're really part of this, that you want to care for them.... as they sharpen the knife right in front of your face.
    – gbjbaanb
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 10:08
  • 1
    Remember what they said:"Cannot comment on a employee that is no longer here" so they won't talk about that no matter what
    – HQSantos
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 13:32
  • 12
    Once lawyers get involved, remorse becomes a non-factor (other than the remorse of paying a lawyer $500 an hour). Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 18:10
  • 6
    @RobertHarvey that's the only remorse they ever felt about the Monica case
    – Zhigalin
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 17:09
26

The fact that this discussion was even necessary is sufficient evidence that the company, not the community, is broken.

Users to this site should have absolutely no reason to even know that the company exists. The presence of a corporate structure to keep the site running and moving in the right direction should be totally transparent to the users. The fact that we are now discussing the company, because of actions that it took, and other actions that it didn't take, is a sign that the company itself is broken.

Back in the day before digital cinema projectors became a thing, I used to handle quite a bit of film. Film was tricky and finicky. If the humidity got a bit too low (happens easily in the winter up north), static electricity would cause it to clump together and get stuck. The inevitable projection system shutdown would ensue, often accompanied by a nicely-melted frame of film. This happened before the eyes of the audience. Their immersive movie experience had been disrupted by my failure to monitor and maintain steady control of the environment. Needless to say, this ruins the movie.

My job was to run the equipment. It was not my job to decide what movies to play, or what was in the movies, or to cut it down to save a few minutes, or not to play it because I deemed the content to be too raunchy in nature. My sole purpose as a projectionist was to make sure that the steady machinery of the film system advanced at 24 frames per second from the first frame of the first preview to the last frame of the MPAA logo following the end credits, so those who cared to view it could do so without thinking about me.

The company here is similar to a projectionist at a theater. If they do their job correctly, you won't notice that they exist. Conversely, if you have to think about the company, or pay any attention whatsoever to it, the experience has already been ruined. I would encourage the company, and its CEO to see itself this way.

It was not my job as the projectionist to engage with the audience. They didn't need to know I existed, and I preferred it that way. Doing my job competently, professionally, and with promptness ensured that their movie experience was seamless and immersive. It must be the same with the Stack Exchange company.

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    I do agree with the general sentiment, though being completely "hands off" from the company's perspective is both unrealistic and undesirable. It comes off as indifference. At the moment, your projectionist doesn't appear to understand the film or the projector. Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 16:11
  • 9
    You're not "hands-off" - you're "hands on" but in a very precise and careful way. This community is self-directing. If that changes, then it will be ruined.
    – theMayer
    Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 16:12
  • Well, yes, which is why the scare quotes are there (I couldn't think of a better analogy; "transparency" doesn't quite work either. I don't get to see the projectionist). Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 16:13
  • @RobertHarvey - the point I'm trying to make is that, while I've heard people say they want the company to be more engaged, I don't think that's true. I think we (the community) want to be left alone, with the company there to ensure that the machinery that allows us to run is working... one implication might be that staff members, if they engage, do so as community members with the same rights and privileges accorded thereto. This also does not preclude taking action to clean or repair imminent problems, but this also must be done very carefully so as not to be noticeable.
    – theMayer
    Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 16:30
  • 7
    As a community, we were more or less "left alone" for quite a long period of time. When the company did engage, it did so without knowledge of how the communities work, over issues the communities don't consider particularly important. This disconnect is a consequence of the indifference and detachment, not merely a happenstance. Calibrating your "hands-on" involvement requires knowledge of how the communities work; I'm not sure corporate possesses that knowledge anymore. Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 16:44
  • 15
    And I don't buy this idea that "we made changes because the broader community expects them, not the more insular Meta community." The changes that were made to the CoC were triggered, for the most part, by single individuals. The feedback that corporate gets from their surveys is of the most general nature, analyzed by dubious statistical techniques. In short, corporate is out of touch. Commented Feb 7, 2020 at 16:48
26

Aaron, we are truly thankful that you dedicated such extensive amounts of time to advocate on behalf of the community. But, as many people have already said, SE is not going to follow through with their promises. Allow me to reflect::

CEO will commit to continue posting on meta at least quarterly.

We don't care what the CEO has to say. SE is ignoring the community and trying to keep us quiet by throwing us a bone "quarterly." If the CEO really cares for the community, he can forget posting on meta, and instead READ on meta. If the SE administration actually takes the time to give a damn and read what we have to say (on meta), then we might actually get somewhere.

Meta is for the community members who care. It is where we go to build the community. But SE is disregarding everyone on meta, and focusing solely on users who will likely never even use meta.

  • We have defined top 5 strategic priorities for the year.
  • How do we welcome more and more people.

Like Dalija Prasnikar already said, we don't need new users. What we do need is to retain those users - like Aaron - who actually dedicate time to the embetterment of the community. I understand the desire to make users with single reputation points feel welcomed, but it is in the end completely pointless if there are no users with thousands of reputation points to answer their questions. At the rate things are going, this will soon be the case. SE is driving away all those members who matter through their indifference, which is thinly veiled in empty promises.

It is quite evident that, at this point, SE only cares about those new users who create accounts simply to ask a single duplicate question and never return. They have no consideration for what the long-standing members, who have dedicated years of their lives to endlessly contributing to the community, have to say, want, and need.

If SE wants us to buy their crap, then they can start by reading what we have to say on meta, and interacting with us through the comments and answers. Again, we do not want them to interact with us collectively by posting periodic literature directed at us as a general audience - it is essentially a newsletter, thrown out for whoever for might read it, and with no consideration for the readers' feedback. We are done reading SE's literature. It is their turn to start reading ours.

21

The biggest "thing" for me is again what wasn't said: it is all about stack overflow.

It seems the other sites on the stack exchange network don't appear on the radar anymore, maybe except for those that are intended to be somehow "merged" into that one big community that SE Inc. is hoping to establish. The one that brings together any topic relevant in today's IT world.

9
  • 26
    It is a fact that I find very odd, considering that the Problem with Pronouns really had very little to do with Stack Overflow, and a lot more to do with sites like The Workplace and Interpersonal Relations. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 19:22
  • That could also mean that the path to migration away from this platform is relatively open for the non-IT related exchanges. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 22:16
  • 1
    Honestly, as long as they don't shut down my site (which Prashanth has said they won't), I'm fine with them forgetting our site exists at this point.
    – V2Blast
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 9:34
  • @V2Blast Probably depends on the amount of money it costs to host that site ...
    – GhostCat
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 9:36
  • Well, to SE's defense (in this particularly instance only, of course), it's not like the prospects on the broader community were a discussion topic to begin with. This meeting was largely an MSO initiative in the first place, which is also the reason why its outcome is confined to MSO. Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 12:59
  • @ChrissaysReinstateMonica Sure, but that in itself is already a problem for every user who happens to care about such "other" communities. And it is SE Inc. who constantly solely talks about stack overflow.
    – GhostCat
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 13:07
  • Very true indeed. And it would bother me in this specific case as much as it does in the rest of SE's communication if only the meeting wasn't bound from the very beginning to be as empty and irrelevant as it turned out to be. ;-) Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 13:09
  • 3
    @RobertHarvey the pronouns problem is a political problem, it has nothing to do with the SE network at all.
    – Zhigalin
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 17:22
  • @V2Blast considering what they have done and are still doing it's far better if they would forget about a site, heck, I wish they would forget about Stack Overflow...
    – Zhigalin
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 17:25
21

My biggest concern personally is the Question Quality section of the discussion and the whole false "welcoming" trope. In my view the barrier to entry needs to be higher, not lower. That is what quality means. You can't have it both ways.

Those with the proven judgment and experience to assess question worth, who are swimming against the tide to keep the bandwidth clear as SO is increasingly overwhelmed with a long tail of dreck questions, need to be awarded more trust and more responsibility. The three-vote closure is a great start but only a start. The powers that be need to show they are on the side of those who are left trying to guard the door armed with only a toothpick; otherwise we'll take our toothpicks and walk away.

[Apologies for the unbelievably mixed metaphors. I don't know what came over me.]

2
  • 4
    *folds and pockets toothpick*
    – deceze Mod
    Commented Feb 14, 2020 at 19:31
  • 2
    I firmly believe that the reduction of the close threshold at this particular time was mainly to compensate for curators leaving. So that corporate can maintain some semblance of quality for a little longer. Commented Feb 15, 2020 at 1:02
20

The question I don't really see asked or answered is the degree of autonomy the community now has with respect to what it also wants to see and moderate. I see that we are valued and we are an integral part of this, but I don't see a clear definition as to what we can and can't decide we don't want to participate with.

16
  • I assume what Tim Post said back in 2018 or 2019 still stands (as he's still with the company); Stack Overflow is unique* in that it does not get to control its own destiny re: what questions it wants to accept, due to it being the company's cash cow, basically. ---- * (since the events of late 2019 to early 2020 there have been some suggestions that a couple other sites may not be allowed this autonomy either due to 1. size or 2. running afoul of the CM's code of conduct or gendering rules... can't remember the details there)
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 20:21
  • Oh. Do you have a reference for that @TylerH?
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 20:47
  • 3
    See Tim's comment replies starting here. Unless you mean the asterisk'd part, in which case I don't have any readily available links.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:13
  • 4
    Hmm, Tim's comment is an eye-opener. We don't have a say because we're too mean? 🤔 Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:35
  • 2
    The way I interpreted that in the heat of the moment is that there's going to be some give and take on the implied autonomy of the site. It's clear that Tim had a mission to get rid of the "problem", but with him not really taking the time to realize that the problem could be fixed by editing, this intention came across like a bull in a china shop. Everything else is hearsay, though, even if Mystical's opinion is one I could almost agree with.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:37
  • 2
    The circumstance is pretty damn simple, if I'm gonna be blunt here. Stack Overflow needs to make money. The community of Stack Overflow wants say and sway in how it runs things. There's enough common ground that allows the company to make its nickel and allows the community to have the autonomy it needs, but I'm not seeing that reflected here.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:38
  • 2
    I'd be happy if there was at least an acknowledgement that the experts and the moderators and all of the people that volunteer their precious free time to make these sites better are in some way worthy of preservation. Instead, all I hear is "we believe that inclusiveness and quality are not mutually-exclusive goals," a sentiment I find naïve at best, given the events of the past few months. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:42
  • It seemed pretty clear to me based on not only the actions leading to that post and comment discussion, but also based on the doubling down across more than one comment re: "the minority doesn't get to overrule the majority" that our preferences for managing what content we want to see (the common prerogative of Meta communities everywhere) is limited by the preferences of any given CM on any given day. Yes, in that case the Meta guidance was snarkier than necessary, but it's just one example in a (now long) train of "oh crap Twitter's happening again" overreactions that hit (Meta) SO hard
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:48
  • @TylerH: But the minority did overrule this. The question is undeleted. Some of the more cutting snark has been removed, and the spirit/intent of the question isn't really lost. That's a compromise that the community can live with. That's the point of establishing the boundaries of autonomy. For matters like this, there is no hard-and-fast rule that says one decision outweighs another. There can be compromises, and something constructive can come of that. That's what I'm looking for in the answers above, and that's not what I'm seeing.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 21:52
  • I'm not sure if the degree of autonomy can really be formalized in any way, but I imagine that the company thinks it has the final say on anything on their platform, so there is no real autonomy. It's basically just that they cannot practically control everyone. As long as the machine runs, they may just prefer not to talk about such difficult questions Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 22:14
  • @Trilarion: Them coming out and saying that would be a lot clearer than it being implied. And, yes, they do run the platform and yes, they do have the final say on what content is and isn't allowed on their platform. However that statement can apply at a broad, 100,000 foot level (e.g. no pornography). That doesn't help us deal with circumstances where there's just enough gray that everyone's perspective is equally valid and equally fair.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 22:24
  • 1
    @Makoto We could make a list of important grey areas and make demands and then they could comment on them and then we would know, but since they have the final say, how could we trust them on anything? There is no independent arbitration in case of disagreements. We will have to negotiate every time new and the only power we have is to threaten to walk away. Maybe we should form a union. The limitation of featured moderator resignation notices to 24h is more like a 100 foot level. Commented Feb 4, 2020 at 22:46
  • @Makoto "the minority" (read: Meta) really had no say. It was Shog who fixed it. If he hadn't done what he did, I have no doubt Tim or other CMs would have kept it the way he wanted it.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 14:20
  • 1
    @Zhigalin-ReinstateCMs: I don't really know what you're individual expectations were. If you went into this expecting detailed, thorough and elaborate explanations and answers to all of your concerns, obviously you didn't get that. I went into this expecting the main points to be discussed and responded to, and by and large I got that.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 17:29
  • 3
    @Makoto I can't call a "can't talk about that, can't talk about that, yes we do care about the community" an actual response.
    – Zhigalin
    Commented Feb 5, 2020 at 17:46

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