Timeline for An account of my meeting with the Stack Overflow management team
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
31 events
when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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Feb 9, 2020 at 20:35 | comment | added | Peter - Reinstate Monica | "We all are Monica" -- well said. | |
Feb 8, 2020 at 15:28 | comment | added | Tim Biegeleisen | Let's not forget that the swagger packages at 100K and 250K were cancelled 6 months ago, and have not been replaced. If providing roughly 10000 hours of volunteer work is not even valued at a free T-shirt, then SE values the community at absolute zero. | |
Feb 7, 2020 at 19:39 | comment | added | Rakete1111 | @Geronimo wow you weren't kidding. It's a bit better in the C++ tag where we occasionally have high quality questions and answers but most of them are bad; it's sad really. | |
Feb 6, 2020 at 19:13 | comment | added | Geronimo | There are many tags nowadays that are wastelands where most questions are bad and answers are worse, like python or unity3d. Without adequate moderation all tags will be like that and SO will cease to be useful and lose money. But they humiliated the people that was keeping the floodgates closed, now if they want quality they will have to hire someone to moderate each tag or else it will become yahoo answers. They are very unwise for a for-profit organization. | |
Feb 6, 2020 at 18:13 | comment | added | Rounin | Re: let Stack Overflow the company sort out the junk, spam, malicious content. (@Tschallacka) Yes. I think if the new Stack Overflow wants to be about monetary profit maximisation and not about community / volunteering then it can't pick and choose. If it wants to regard everything in terms of monetary value, then it must regard moderation and tidying up in terms of monetary value. Which means all those chores become the exclusive job of people who are paid by Stack Overflow and everyone else shouldn't go near such tasks. One really cannot have one's cake and eat it. | |
Feb 5, 2020 at 15:31 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @Mari-LouA I didn't forget... I can never forget... but I didn't want to drag in every person that has been mistreated. Two universally breaking points (also specifically addressed in this meeting) are Monica and CMs. | |
Feb 5, 2020 at 11:47 | comment | added | TelKitty | Cellio's case was settled by legal process. CMs are employees, company can decide whoever they would like to let go. So unless you have a strong case on discriminating, there usually is nothing you could do. The only worry Stackexchange has, is that if they destroy the community, and it wouldn't grow back ... | |
Feb 5, 2020 at 11:38 | comment | added | TelKitty | That's why I asked the question on why 'Community has to be renewed.' IMHO, all the incidents happened in the past few months boils to the root cause 'Community has to be renewed.' | |
Feb 5, 2020 at 11:33 | comment | added | Mari-Lou A | It's not just about Cellio, Shog9 or Cartaino. Don't forget that a CM also banned R.Harvey for a year on Meta, which completely blew any chances (admittedly slim) of him being reinstated. You lose a player like R.H and then George Stoker followed by other moderators on SO, it means the site is not growing healthily. It means that quality checks will inevitably suffer. It means losing or sacrificing the very experts who posted high quality answers or made sure that the community was walking on common ground. | |
Feb 5, 2020 at 11:20 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @TelKitty Sure... I never said otherwise... point is, we can still be dissatisfied with how SE treated Monica and talk about it (without the need to know details that cannot be disclosed) And if you like you can read blog post written by CM who had all the information and he said he would refuse to remove her as moderator if he would be asked to do so jlericson.com/2020/02/02/2019_in_review.html I will not comment any more on that topic. | |
Feb 5, 2020 at 11:16 | comment | added | TelKitty | Before the legal process, Stackoverflow didn't want to, after the legal process, it didn't need to. If you disagree, feel free talking to your authority. Legal decisions supersede personal feelings. | |
Feb 5, 2020 at 10:44 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @TelKitty You can believe what you want. Before legal process ended, SE could not reinstate Monica because that would be their admission of guilt and that would weaken their legal stance. After they reached an agreement (and based on the official statement saying whole thing was "misunderstanding") there was no reason they could not reinstate her. There is no reason why they cannot reinstate her, even now (even though that would be much too late) There is enough information out there (even if few details are missing) to know that those details are not important for the whole picture. | |
Feb 5, 2020 at 9:37 | comment | added | TelKitty | @DalijaPrasnikar User funded Monica's defence, that is great consider the community felt that she was treated unfairly. We don't know what have happened in the legal process. So there is no point on insisting reinstate Monica. We don't know what evidence was presented and we do not know what compensation she has gotten. Judgement should not be based on partial information. | |
Feb 5, 2020 at 9:11 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @TelKitty Users donated money so Monica could finance her legal expenses. She reached the settlement with SE and obviously she signed NDA agreement with them, so neither she nor SE cannot disclose what exactly is in agreement. Nothing unusual. And we don't need to know that part. | |
Feb 5, 2020 at 9:09 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @CD001 Yes, I am sure that was the case at the moment she reached legal agreement with SE... also in her Goodbye SE post on Meta, she mentioned she is still open for cooperation and SE staff will know how to reach her if they want... | |
Feb 4, 2020 at 22:48 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @Trilarion I would say your guess is a right on spot... will see how that works out... | |
Feb 4, 2020 at 22:38 | comment | added | NoDataDumpNoContribution | "...there is no moving forward..." I guess the idea is that eventually the people who witnessed these events will have left or adapted and they can move forward with the new users, that don't care so much. | |
Feb 4, 2020 at 16:52 | comment | added | Peter Mortensen | @matt freake: Which way? Because you could no longer be blunt? Or because you were on the receiving end of bluntness? Which one? | |
Feb 4, 2020 at 16:47 | history | edited | Peter Mortensen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Active reading [<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Dax90QyXgI&t=17m54s> <https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mumbo_jumbo#Noun> <http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/straightforward>].
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Feb 4, 2020 at 16:11 | comment | added | CD001 | She wanted to be reinstated - before it went as far down the line as it has done, with the legal outcome that has arisen. Are you sure that's still the case? | |
Feb 4, 2020 at 16:01 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @CD001 Monica wanted to be reinstated. She said (wrote) that on many occasions. Also, she started legal action against SE to have her name cleared. Nothing could be better for that goal than reinstatement. She could always resign afterwards, if she didn't want to go back to moderating. | |
Feb 4, 2020 at 15:57 | comment | added | CD001 | I am saying there is nothing that prevents SE to just reinstate Monica. ... assuming, of course, that she even wants to be reinstated (which I'd be amazed at, at this point) - Monica could quite easily prevent SE from reinstating her. | |
Feb 4, 2020 at 14:39 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @ChuckAdams I am not saying anything about talking or giving us more details. I am saying there is nothing that prevents SE to just reinstate Monica. If by any chance SE managed to get her to sign that "she will not be reinstated" so they cannot openly say that, again that was poor move on the SE side that didn't had to happen. Point is SE could do the right thing and just reinstate her, if they wanted. But they didn't and that says a lot. | |
Feb 4, 2020 at 14:31 | comment | added | Chuck Adams | "There is no legal mambo jumbo that prevents them doing the right thing here." There is a settlement, which is the very definition of "legal mumbo jumbo". They couldn't talk about Monica if they wanted to. | |
Feb 4, 2020 at 13:08 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @mattfreake I used to comment, after welcoming wagon hit the town I mostly stopped because meta.stackoverflow.com/q/368072/4267244 | |
Feb 4, 2020 at 11:43 | history | edited | Dalija PrasnikarMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
Additional comments on presented goals
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Feb 4, 2020 at 10:16 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @Tschallacka Besides above, I don't see any serious commitment to quality and that is the only thing that could eventually make me change my mind. In order for SO to be useful to me it must preserve quality, and I don't see that decline in quality can be turned around with any of the proposed actions (not counting the impact by some high contributors that have already left the site(s)) | |
Feb 4, 2020 at 10:06 | comment | added | Dalija Prasnikar Mod | @Tschallacka I don't have a problem with SO being a business. I don't have problem with SO making money. I DO have problem with active and gross disrespect and trashing people - both contributors and employees. This is direct insult and slap in my face, even though I was not directly involved. Sorry, that seriously changes nature of "relationship" between company and its users. This is not what I signed up for, and because of that I cannot continue like nothing has happened. | |
Feb 4, 2020 at 9:43 | comment | added | Tschallacka | Or, alternatively, you could stop caring about "Stack Overflow" and just use it as a resource for yourself. To polish up your resume, to stay up to date with new technologies. Would you refrain from posting on Microsoft Technet because Microsoft took away the start button in Windows 8? or would you answer the question. Stack Overflow is a business, we could all just stop caring about it and stop volunteer moderation duties and just use it as a resource to dump knowledge so you can google it easier, let Stack Overflow the company sort out the junk, spam, malicious content. | |
Feb 4, 2020 at 9:25 | history | edited | Dalija PrasnikarMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 238 characters in body
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Feb 4, 2020 at 9:13 | history | answered | Dalija PrasnikarMod | CC BY-SA 4.0 |