644

It’s my birthday today and I’ve got a gift for you. 🎁 We’re lowering the close/reopen vote threshold on Stack Overflow from 5 to 3.

About a month ago, Shog shared the results of our experiment testing this lower close/reopen threshold. From that, we observed that closing, reopening, and editing all became more efficient, so we deemed the test to be successful.

At that time we said that we’d consider moving the threshold back down to 3 following the end of our testing period for the new post notices. The new post notices, which Yaakov has recently rolled out across Stack Overflow (the rest of the network and Teams coming very soon), are also part of our efforts to make experiences around curation less frustrating and more helpful for everyone. Because we feel the new post notices provide better feedback to guide authors of closed questions, we’re comfortable re-lowering the close/reopen threshold again. Permanently. For now.

We’ve still got a long way to go towards improving how feedback happens in this part of the system. Our goal is to improve the way our system helps users share and receive feedback. Thank you for your input as we work on more incremental improvements.

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  • 183
    Happy birthday!
    – Davy M
    Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 17:06
  • 48
    This is "for good", and it is. Is there something you're planning on doing "for bad"? :-)
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 17:15
  • 60
    @GeorgeStocker Questions were worth 10 points. Then 5. Now we're back to 10. Everything is permanent until it isn't
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 17:16
  • 10
    Happy Birthday! And thanks for the early christmas gift :) Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 17:27
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    Other sites can have whatever threshold is most appropriate for them, @gnat
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 17:40
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    Not for nothing, but levity is not in vogue on meta sites anymore, even for staff members. But thanks for the voting change anyway. One of the most positive things I've seen happen on SE in awhile. Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 18:20
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    I'm confused. This seems like a good change, and I'm not used to those lately. Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 18:57
  • 14
    @TylerH We're still considering it.
    – Meg Risdal StaffMod
    Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 18:59
  • 17
    We got a lot of good feedback on that idea, @TylerH - I think we can do better than what I proposed without a lot of extra work. But that'll have to wait for a new year...
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 19:04
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    @pault They require another close vote.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 21:18
  • 139
    Finally we are no longer living in sin, for on the matter of close votes it is written: "three shall be the number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be three. Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two, excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out." Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 21:38
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    @JeroenMostert ::enthusiastic clapping::
    – Meg Risdal StaffMod
    Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 21:51
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    For once, a Stack Overflow Company meta post that has more than 0 votes!
    – AlexH
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 22:01
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    @skomisa That issue is addressed by everyone having edit rights. If you see a question closed as unclear that is perfectly obvious to you, given your expertise in the subject, then you should edit it, clarifying to others what is clear to you. That'll then allow the question to be reopened (and reopening is easier, too, since the same vote count threshold applies to reopening as it does to closing).
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 23:17
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    As an ordinary user this disappoints me. Finding productive discussions which were cut off by close votes is already a frequent and frustrating experience for users. I understand that SO is more about curating questions than appealing to the masses, but these sorts of decisions tend to piss off more people (do most users even have accounts?) than I believe most moderators realize. Commented Dec 11, 2019 at 6:39

10 Answers 10

278

This is a step in a positive direction. Thanks for making this Permanent™.

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    Yes, it's permanent, for now. Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 17:13
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    Yea we needed some happy news, it has been a while.
    – James Wong
    Commented Dec 6, 2019 at 2:00
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    Happy to see this change as well. It seems that some of the documentation, however, still needs to be updated. As I'm writing this, that page states "It takes 5 close votes from members..."
    – M -
    Commented Dec 6, 2019 at 20:38
  • 2
    Why do you think this is positive? Closed questions still appear on the home page, so it doesn't help with signal:noise. And close reasons are applied inconsistently. All closing seems to do is annoy people who are hoping to get their question answered.
    – paj28
    Commented Dec 26, 2019 at 13:29
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    Why was it 5 in the first place? And won't the new threshold make it easier to abuse? Commented Dec 27, 2019 at 4:57
74

I think this is a good step forward. While I still think we need to actively revisit the close reason set and wording, making questions get actioned faster helps everyone.

A primary source of contention between members of the community is a result of the friction caused by the closure process.

Would you rather come back to your post and see a bunch of canned comments, some upvoted multiple times, or would you rather the system guide you through issues with your post, and notes that it's not going to get visibility beyond being linked on your profile until you make at least one edit (with links to help)? The latter is definitely preferable, and offers far less opportunity for folks to speak out of frustration. - Tim Post ♦

5 votes can take quite some time, and as a result the time frame became troubling because users tapping their feet waiting for closure often left canned comments which the askers then lashed out at.

Hopefully this change reduces that friction point, any progress there will improve community health.

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    We have some cool stuff in the pipeline continuing on this theme that I hope we can tease soon. :) Thanks for this feedback!
    – Meg Risdal StaffMod
    Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 19:42
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    @MeganRisdal - Awesome :) Definitely exciting to see some of these projects moving forward!
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 3, 2019 at 20:01
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    I don't understand that friction. Why would you sit around waiting for the Question to be closed? Why give canned responses instead of genuinely trying to help? Or, if you don't have time, why not just move on, and wait for the closure to happen? Why actually be there waiting for it to happen?
    – trlkly
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 11:09
  • 4
    Solution: Don't leave comments on posts you downvoted or voted to close. (just realized that you're the same person that told me that)
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 12:44
  • @trlkly - Fully agree. However, there are users who do that. Many of them are convinced it helps even though I rarely, if ever, see any positive reaction to their canned comments. There is even a whole chat room that coordinates such activity (SOCVR).
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 18:31
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    @JL2210 - Yeah, I did say that :) Although someone else would have as well. Commenting on questions which are in the process of closure rarely helps. Answers can be a different story sometimes.
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 18:33
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    @TravisJ Well, if you ask the user politely to fix their question they usually give an effort.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 18:47
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    @JL2210 - Unfortunately sometimes there is no amount of fixing that can be done. Misconceptions about the platform lead to users asking questions, which even if they are formed perfectly, are simply off topic. At times, it is possible that a polite inquiry results in improvements, but that requires the asker to actually be present (sometimes they are not so attentive).
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 18:49
  • @TravisJ Yes, but in other cases it can be fixed, as in the case of a missing MCVE.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 19:00
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    @TravisJ Your experience with comments prior to close appears significantly different than mine. I've found that leaving a comment, primarily canned comments, that point out what needs to be improved in the question is usually helpful and often gets a positive response from the OP (i.e. the question is often improved prior to closure). Perhaps the primary issue is the comment content, rather than a general statement about the results of the leaving comments. Note: I agree there are a significant number of comments which end up negative for the OP, but that's mostly due to the comment content.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 19:13
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    @Makyen - If I leave a comment, it is personalized and only in the case where it is clear the asker is attentive. That route is highly effective. What I have observed in the past decade from canned comments though is thousands of times where absolutely nothing positive happens, mostly from prolific canned comment users. Canned comment content is not really helpful, and is constantly being revised with outlook to leave an actual customized message. In that same regard, "what have you tried" is permanently banned from comments unless it is actually descriptive of the issue.
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 19:16
  • @TravisJ I agree there are a number of comments similar to "what have you tried" which are rarely, if ever, helpful. Such a comment doesn't provide the OP with any actionable information/direction which would allow them to improve their question. However, I'd argue that the issue is the content of the comment, not the fact that it's a canned comment, or that it's not personalized. While, yes, a personalized comment is often better, there's an important trade-off to be made between the time that requires and the number of questions which are posted on SO.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 19:28
  • 1
    @Makyen - Not taking the time to invest in the question is the problem with canned comments. If users are not interested in investing time, then there is no point in them posting any sort of comment. Especially in today's environment where the tooling now allows for simply actioning the post and having that result in actual closure; users not interested in becoming involved should just action the post and move on. Let the system handle the messaging and process for users fixing questions.
    – Travis J
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 19:48
  • @TravisJ I partially agree with that, but also disagree. For example, in the tags I frequent, I can provide a canned comment that explains what's needed in ~95% of the cases where the user hasn't provided enough information for a MCVE/MRE. Explaining the things actually needed is significantly superior to the stock close reason for MRE, which doesn't explain what's actually needed to reproduce problems in those tags. Sometimes, that comment needs to be modified to the situation, but most of the time, it's fine just as a canned comment, and often gets OPs to edit in enough info for a MCVE/MRE.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 20:17
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    Ultimately, it would be nice if enough people were moderating so each question could have individual attention. Reality is that there's way too many questions compared to the time available from the number of people who are moderating. If the comment is actually helpful, then it's better to have it, regardless of if it is canned or personalized. If the comment isn't helpful (e.g. primarily a way for the commenter to express frustration) then it's better not to have it. But, again, that comes down to the content of the comment, not, directly, if it was personalized to the specific question/OP.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 20:17
42

Shog9 had concerns about reaching consensus in the experiment write up when we only used 3 votes:

Oh, right... That no-consensus thing went up by a thousand percent. We should, uh, probably fix that.

Is this something that is going to be tackled at a later date?

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    Got some good ideas on that in the last thread, so hope to work on a slightly more useful solution in the new year.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 14:26
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    We’ll just put every split decision into a review queue. That’ll solve all our problems.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 17:05
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    Cody Gray: Alignment change LG -> LE Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 17:06
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    @CodyGray A Close Vote Triage?
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 18:04
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    Oh, good point, @JL2210! We need to triage the priority of those split decisions first, then we'll dump them into a Contested Close Vote Review Queue. Note that the process may be recursive, depending on the outcome of the CCVRQ task.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 18:41
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    @CodyGray How did you find our secret plans?
    – Meg Risdal StaffMod
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 20:01
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    @MeganRisdal Shog let the unicorns out of their cages, and they faxed out a flash drive containing confidential Stack Overflow documents. This was part of the More Queues More Metrics initiative, if I remember correctly.
    – wizzwizz4
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 20:21
  • @CodyGray then the cvq will be replaced with the consensus queue. Then that one will fill up instead. That doesn't seem like a good solution to me, but that could just be me.
    – user10957435
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 22:13
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    @Chipster Sometimes my sarcasm lands, sometimes it doesn't. I find it's most humorous when it's close to the truth, but also more likely to be misinterpreted.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 22:56
  • @CodyGray gasp But sarcasm is unwelcoming...
    – jpmc26
    Commented Dec 9, 2019 at 15:38
  • @jpmc26 Here, a survival kit, it's not much, but you'll need it out there in the exiles' wastelands. Commented Dec 18, 2019 at 11:49
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Yay! I think I speak for a lot of us when I say this will be greatly appreciated. The previous experiment showed moderation will be more effective now--and that benefits everyone.

Oh, and also happy birthday. Weird you're giving us a present on your birthday, but I'll take it.

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    Pippi wound and wound and seemed to forget everything else. But suddenly she remembered something. "Oh, my goodness, you must have your birthday presents too!" she said. "But it isn't our birthday," said Tommy and Annika. Pippi stared at them in amazement. "No, but it's my birthday, isn't it? And so I can give birthday presents too, can't I? Or does it say in your schoolbooks that such a thing can't be done? Is it something to do with that old pluttifikation that makes it impossible?" - The timeless classic Pippi Longstocking by Astrid Lindgren
    – BIU
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 8:00
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    Well, Hobbits on their own birthday give presents to others... just saying...
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 10:13
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    I think Megan's present is getting to post a change that doesn't deserve to be downvoted to oblivion.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Dec 4, 2019 at 18:16
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Finally! 🎉👍⭐️💕✅


I hoped for this ever since experiment results were published. I understand that you wanted to wait for the new post notices, but personally I don't see much difference between new and old post notices.

Main source of frustration when the question is closed came from the fact question is closed not from the post notice itself. New post notices, just like the old ones are not self explanatory (IMO old ones actually contained more useful information than new ones) and OP still needs to follow the link and do a whole a lot of reading to understand why was question closed.

For increasing the question quality and lowering the frustration of both question askers and users with moderating powers, you still need to address educating users about site before they even attempt to ask question and during the question asking process.

There is still way too many book, technology, library and similar recommendation questions asked. Way too many do my work for me questions, and debug my code questions that don't include minimal reproducible examples.

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Is this only for stackoverflow or also for the other stackexchange sites?

For politics, skeptics, and similar sites often dealing with subjective topics this will probably have a bad effect.. even with the 5-vote requirement there are too many ideologically motivated closings, when people want to remove legitimate questions because they think they (or the answers given) don't support their views... and therefore there are lots of generic "not clear what you're asking" close votes even if the OP explained exceptionally when what is being asked.

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    It is only for Stack Overflow.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Dec 8, 2019 at 10:44
  • I would say that an ideological site (to the extent that it should be permitted to exist on the network in the first place) would generally be greatly improved by only permitting questions that are deemed acceptable by "both sides" (whatever those sides might be). Commented Apr 17 at 2:00
12

Thank you. The high vote threshold, combined with close votes aging out, was why I stopped going through the close vote queue every day - too often I found that a question that, say, three people had decided needed to be closed, took too long to get any additional votes and so it would return to open status; it's frustrating to do a bunch of janitorial work and see it get entirely discarded. There's probably some additional work to be done on that front (how often are questions that were voted to close and aged out nominated for closure again? I'm curious if they can have reduced vote thresholds the second time) but this at least should help.

Although there's also plenty of other meta drama that's preventing me, personally, from being terribly active in any sort of janitorial way.

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Permanently. For now.

#oxymoron

On a serious note, thank you for this. As I said after the initial trial:

Please bring this back.

This change helped questions be closed, fixed, and reopened at a faster pace than usual. For that reason, I'd like this to be brought back (at least for a little while). If it's not asking too much, I'd also like this to be made permanent.

Well, that's exactly what you did. :)

0
-13

I do not believe that it is a good idea to give all users the same weight in the voting criteria. While only needing 3 closing-votes is an excellent way to quickly close questions, I do believe that users with more reputation in the question's tags should have more weight into this decision. A notice that questions are now very quickly closed, and sometimes maybe too quickly.

To this end, I would propose a weighted system based on the badges. Call it an extended version of the Golden hammer:

Rules for closing a question: A question gets closed when the total votes accumulate 5 voting points.. Each voting user, gets n voting points assigned to its vote. The total voting-points per voting user are assigned in the following way:

  • 3 voting-points: the voting user has minimum one golden badge for any of the question-tags
  • 2 voting-points: the voting user has minimum one silver badge and no golden badge for any of the question tags
  • 1 voting-point: this is the default case if the voting user does not have any silver or golden badges related to the tags assigned to the question

With this method, you would need between 2 and 5 votes to close a question

  • 2 votes: 2 gold votes
  • 2 votes: 1 gold and 1 silver vote
  • 3 votes: 1 gold and 2 default
  • 3 votes: 3 silver
  • 3 votes: 2 silver and 1 default
  • 4 votes: 1 silver and 3 default
  • 5 votes: 5 default

Just an idea.

It also gives some more meaning to those badges.

Furthermore, when you introduce offsets to the type of "close-vote", you could mimic the golden hammer within the following way. Duplicate votes start with 2 voting points, the question gets now closed as a duplicate when 3 more voting-points are obtained:

  • 1 vote: 1 gold vote (ze hamma)
  • 2 votes: 2 silver votes
  • 2 votes: 1 silver and 1 default
  • 3 votes: 3 default
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    Similar things have been proposed before. I’m sure this would work well for larger tags, but for the little tags this would suck. For questions tagged octave you have exactly one user with a silver badge, there are no golds. This tag also gets less views, so collecting 5 votes on a question has always been impossible. With the 3 vote limit we can finally close questions. Commented Dec 23, 2019 at 14:42
  • @CrisLuengo Thanks for pointing this out. I did not think of that. As I said, it was only a suggestion. One can of course always find methods to fix this, but it would just overcomplicate everything and I prefer the KISS principle
    – kvantour
    Commented Dec 23, 2019 at 18:25
-26

Reopening has always been much harder and less frequent than closing. This change accelerates closing, including many wrong ones, but doesn't help with reopening proportionally. Wrongful closing always causes damages, even when reopening can happen under much rarer cases.

Closing, downvoting and deleting has long been abused by some users. This site has already gone too far to alienate many people, and encourage mistreatments, abuses and bullies. Yet, think the move is "for good", maybe just for a few but certainly not for the suppressed and many many that have reduced participation or quit this site to avoid toxicity.

Ideas like this that come from a few who live in their own bubbles and are either outsiders or confidently don't need to ask questions are disastrous. How about coming up with some real changes to combat mistreatments, abuses and bullies? That will indeed be for good.

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    Reopening also only takes 3 votes now. Also note that they did test this change before deciding to make it permanent.
    – BSMP
    Commented Dec 31, 2019 at 17:05
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    Seems you missed my first and last paragraphs. Consider how the "test" was designed, evaluated, and by whom? Are they living in their bubbles?
    – Tim
    Commented Dec 31, 2019 at 17:07
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    No, I read the first paragraph, which implied you didn’t know that the number of required reopen votes also changed and I also read the last paragraph, which implied you didn’t know they tested first. If you think the number of reopen votes should be even lower and that the test is poorly designed and evaluated, that should be in your answer. It’s not clear that’s what you’re taking issue with, it reads more like you weren’t aware of everything that was done.
    – BSMP
    Commented Dec 31, 2019 at 17:14
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    I’m not trying to be insulting: I honestly thought you didn’t know about those changes. Your answer will be clearer if you explain what should have happened with the experiment and the number of close votes.
    – BSMP
    Commented Dec 31, 2019 at 17:19
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    The reason that reopening is less frequent than closing is that it is rarely appropriate to reopen. The reasons are twofold: (1) contrary to your assertions, the overwhelming majority of closures are correct, so there is nothing to reverse, and (2) it is unusual for the asker to manage to edit their closed question into something that is suitably on-topic. There are a variety of reasons for the latter, but the big one is that most closed questions are fundamentally unsuitable for Stack Overflow, such that no amount of editing is going to savage them.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jan 1, 2020 at 0:10
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    Your observations match my experience. Finding 3 members with reopen privilege in order to reopen an improved question, or a question that that was wrongly closed, is hard work. People shouldn't have to jump over hurdles in order to be allowed to post an answer that will help someone and will hurt nobody. Commented Oct 14, 2020 at 16:16

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