28

For your perusal:

enter image description here

I would like feedback on the comments below the question. Are they appropriate under the "Be Nice," "Welcome Wagon" and various revisions of the Code of Conduct?

All feedback is welcome.

22
  • 22
    This isn't that friendly, but I think the tone is appropriate. Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 20:32
  • 22
    No, the person asking that question was not being nice.
    – JK.
    Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 20:35
  • 40
    I still don't get why stating the facts is starting to be considered rude, especially in a Q&A site like this.
    – ivan
    Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 20:36
  • 50
    It's appropriate to normal people because it's constructive and isn't insulting or rude. But it may be unwelcoming to vampires because they don't answer the question.
    – Mysticial
    Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 20:37
  • 4
    The problem with that is that the more "welcoming" approach is usually explaining them by detail what to do, instead of telling them to read the rules and FAQ, and that is a problem even more so when you are starting to have tons of users daily posting this kind of questions.
    – ivan
    Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 20:38
  • 2
    It looks fine to me (though as yivi mentioned, they probably won't result in any changes to OP's behavior). Has anyone argued that they are inappropriate?
    – divibisan
    Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 21:07
  • 3
    Doesn't look like you went out of your way to hurt their feelings. Doesn't look like you went out of your way not to. Does the CoC expect you to do that? I don't really know. Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 21:33
  • 7
    Funny enough the auto-bad-comment-flag-algorithm would have flagged both of your comments as 'unfriendly or unkind'. Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 22:05
  • 4
    If you had put one extra word in the first comment: "Sorry, this isn't how Stack Overflow works. Read How do I ask a good question?" I wonder if the outcome would be any different. I don't think you were being insulting, but you do come off as abrasive.
    – Troyen
    Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 22:15
  • 1
    Remember that the OP isn't the only audience. Many more people than just the OP read the question, see the interaction between the OP and the community and judge whether they want to participate based on the community's response. It's akin to showing someone the door when they missed the "no solicitations" sign instead of slamming it in their face. And I think a simple "sorry" is more likely to disarm an argument (or have no effect) than provoke a worse response. At six extra characters, it costs almost nothing. Not engaging costs even less.
    – Troyen
    Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 23:14
  • 2
    related: Do we reward good downvoters? "at that Faraway Site (not here of course!) it was so that no matter how you wrap it, if you post many comments explaining the same thing over and over again, no matter how politely, there would be respectively many complaints and accusations of snark and rudeness, and these many complaints will be heard by powers that be..."
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 8:11
  • 5
    @user1725145 there is an authoritative reference on that matter: A guide to Code Review for Stack Overflow users. My understanding is, unless one has a solid professional grasp in the code of the question asked and is strongly certain that it is correct, it is safer to abstain of recommending CR.SE
    – gnat
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 8:48
  • 2
    Regardless of whether OP should have been directed to CR, if he'd asked that question there I think it would have been accepted with no issues as a legit question. I haven't used CR in a while, but a few years ago such a question would have been fine. I can understand how the OP feels, wants some general guidance but doesn't necessarily know where to start. You don't know what you don't know. Been there myself. So I would have directed him to CR.
    – 404
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 10:19
  • 3
    It'd be a lot more productive to just come out and say "questions asking for opinions or open-ended suggestions on improving code are off-topic on Stack Overflow". No one has to go read a whole page (or more) of help center material and then figure out how it applies to their question.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 17:13
  • 5
    @TylerH: "Let the system work" means using down votes, close votes, delete votes, automated bans, reviews, etc. Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 17:48

3 Answers 3

36

My 2 cents:

I don't believe the comments are "not nice" (or breaking the CoC in any way), but that they are mostly useless.

Linking to a generic "how to ask a good question" post or article is not much better than the help provided by the links on the "on-hold" banner.

Comments should, if possible, provide actionable feedback that's specific to the post they address.

I understand that you posted the comments before the question was closed, but the reasoning is the same even in the absence of the banner.

Canned comments are rarely perceived as useful by those who receive them. If that's all one has to offer, I believe it is better to limit feedback to different kinds of votes, and let the system work; or just leave it up to someone else to provide more helpful feedback.

You do not explain what made you think that these comments might run afoul of the CoC (update or not), so maybe I am missing an important angle.

The comments are not rude or unkind, but I do not believe it would be wrong if they were deleted as "no longer needed", since they are not useful for the post owner nor future readers.

7
  • 11
    ... and that's why the 3 close vote experiment was so great and I'm looking forward to it getting switched on again ... Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 21:07
  • 12
    Yup, exactly. I would decline any "abuse/bigotry/harassment" or "unfriendly/unkind" flags if raised on these comments, but I would have no qualms about deleting them in response to NLN flags. These comments don't say anything useful. If reading the articles in the Help Center was going to help the person ask a better question, it would have already happened and we wouldn't be in this situation. If you want to post a targeted comment giving specific advice that is relevant to the question, then that's fine, and I'll argue against deletion. But overly generic comments are quite useless.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 21:49
  • 1
    First comment was posted before question was closed. It might never been closed. While it is no longer necessary after closure it gave initial feedback upon which OP could act.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 21:50
  • 1
    While my answer addresses a different angle, I do also agree with this answer as well.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 21:50
  • 8
    An example of a targeted comment would be one that explained which aspects of that Help Center article apply in this case, pointing out why the question is not a good fit for Stack Overflow, and suggesting either revisions or a different place to ask (like, cough, Code Review).
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 21:51
  • 1
    @Cody no, Code Review does not want their site mentioned on Stack Overflow. Each time you mention it, someone replies to your comment about how it won't be a good fit there, even if you utilize the appropriate caution ("might be better a better fit for [...] but be sure to read their How to Ask page").
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 8:28
  • 2
    I'm well aware that Code Review folks run a bot watching for comments on Stack Overflow mentioning their site. I've also left a number of these comments and never had anyone from Code Review disagree with them. The key is making sure that the question you're commenting on is actually a good fit for Code Review and, as you said, including the appropriate caveats. It's just like every other site. You shouldn't be recommending that people ask there unless you yourself are familiar with that site's expectations and norms. I am when it comes to Code Review. Your mileage may vary. @code
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 16:20
28

Are they "appropriate"?

This really gets into the interpretation of appropriate. By tautology, we can expand to suitable, proper, or again, appropriate.

The intention of the policy is terribly communicated, so wordsmithing definitions will get us nowhere. I think your meta question just looks like frustration with a lack of overall guidance related to that.

What is clear, however, is that there is and has always been a continual push towards actual positive engagement when choosing to comment. That is why "what have you tried" was removed. If you are going to leave a comment, then commit to the situation.

Let's face it, you didn't commit to improving this post. And why should you? It is a terrible fit for this site. Stack Overflow is not designed to explain something so broad and open ended as variable naming in the same space as something so narrow that it would apply to this user's exact level of education in the subject.

We as a community expect a high level of commitment to projects. We expect research, insight, and corroboration. Often, that doesn't happen. Linking to something explaining in detail all of the ways to improve in situations such as this one generally has little success.

Luckily, we can simply vote and move on. Hopefully with the outcome of moving on to something worthwhile.

If your goal is to simply curate content and remove as much off topic stuff as possible, then commenting will get you nowhere. I am sure at this point you can recognize who will reform and who will not; as well as being able to recognize which posts can and cannot be redeemed.

If your goal is to create content, then let's get some work done on that front. We have all spent so much time focusing on how to remove things we have lost touch with the true driver of progress at the site.

Let's figure out how to make questions that we encounter during the "and move on" phase worth our time, and focus on that endeavor.

4
  • 10
    Bingo. Worth noting that this is also a good strategy to help reduce the odds of burn-out. Whenever I come across a well-meaning user who keeps veering over into "non-constructive" territory in the comments they post, I strongly recommend that they just skip posting comments altogether on obviously hopeless questions. Cast your downvote, cast your close vote, and then go spend your time somewhere where it will be more valued and have a greater impact.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 21:53
  • 7
    "If you are going to leave a comment, then commit to the situation" is a terrific summary.
    – duplode
    Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 22:15
  • 1
    Unfortunately whenever I downvote and cast vc on a post and move on, my votes will be often countered by a following person who thinks such behaviour is rude because there was no explanation on why the post was downvoted in the first place. Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 10:22
  • @AnttiHaapala - Nothing you can do about that. Which is why my last part tries to focus on the idea that we should aim towards allowing more posts that content creators want.
    – Travis J
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 17:42
4

I would like feedback on the comments below the question. Are they appropriate under the "Be Nice," "Welcome Wagon" and various revisions of the Code of Conduct?

They are not nice, but also not not nice. They are technically correct, but maybe lack additional details. First comment is basically RTFM comment with link to documentation. Without that link, it would be rude, with the link it gives sufficient initial feedback and starting point for the OP.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

It depends who is reading. If person is open to feedback, they will be grateful for link and they will not nitpick around niceness. For some people "Please go read..." is sufficiently nicer than same comment without please. Some people find please condescending.

Some people leave "Welcome to Stack Overflow...." canned comments that span four or more lines. They may be more nicely wrapped, but on another hand they are too long to read and get to the point.

Possible improvements

  • Adding Please

  • Adding a bit more context - if question is too broad then something like "This question is too broad and as such not suitable for Stack Overflow. Read How do I ask a Good Question?"

  • Adding canned comment that matches close banner

  • Writing longer comment that explains in more detail what is wrong with the question again with link to "How to write..."

Should one leave low effort comment of low effort question?

Basic issue here is that new contributors asking and answering don't get any official feedback until it is too late. That is why people are leaving canned comments in the first place.

Sending additional explanation and links at first downvote or closevote would remove the need for leaving "helpful" comment that can be perceived as not nice or like personal attack (since it is person to person communication) and it would send stronger and more authorative message to the OP.

Why don't we give users below 250 rep notion about close votes?

Another issue is that poor question may never get closed and without any feedback (besides downvotes) OP will be left clueless and will perceive SO as even more hostile place. So even low effort comment is way better than nothing if the OP is willing to listen. If not, then no amount of niceness would help.

Another observation from experience. No matter how poor initial question is, you can never anticipate from the question whether OP is the one worth fighting for, or is just another help vampire. Sometimes leaving comment on half decent question will result in "Go mind your own business..." response. It is a gamble, really.

8
  • 8
    "RTFM" got a rude reputation because of that "F". I see comments linking to a relevant portion of the manual as useful comments. Prefer to phrase them matter-of-factly, without any F's; e.g.: "The relevant documentation is example.com/docs.html."
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 18:22
  • @CodyGray I don't use RTFM (I am aware is it considered rude) in comments pointing to documentation - in this case I used it to paint the picture of what the comment actually says. I guess the F part is a bit of cultural difference, because to non native English speaker such words carry different connotation. I also used RTFM - Read the frickin' manual as the title of one paragraphs in my programming book, so F can also carry different meaning :)
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 18:29
  • 1
    ok then... "RTM" would be okay? @Cody
    – Patrice
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 18:55
  • 1
    @Patrice Release to manufacturing ;)
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 18:58
  • @HerMajesty to be fair, I've seen "RTM" been used in Call center environments to classify cases where the documentation had the answer. There's no "F" in there.... but somehow I still think it would be considered snarky
    – Patrice
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 19:01
  • 3
    It would be okay, but it's not great, either. For starters, I'm not a huge fan of initialisms. You always have to guess what they mean, and everybody uses them to mean different things. Second, issuing that command to people is not generally going to have a positive reception. It goes over a lot better to say, "You can read about this [here] in the manual." Or, "This is covered in [the manual]." Or, "The relevant manual can be found [here]." Or endless variations on the same. Small potatoes, of course. Not a CoC issue or anything like that. Just more likely to get the desired reception.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 19:02
  • @Patrice I usually use "Please read the documentation - link" in comments on SO. What works for me does not necessarily work for other people. So using word documentation is more understandable.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 19:07
  • 1
    @Cody That's the point I was trying to make. You jumped on the "F" being an issue (for the reputation of RTFM being rude). But the F is..... kinda moot here. RTM is as bad as RTFM is you ask me. I agree writing it out is better, and should be what we aim for ^^
    – Patrice
    Commented Oct 24, 2019 at 19:15

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .