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In my answer to Should the mod team tighten up moderation on Meta comments?, I have argued that, while Meta can benefit from tighter moderation of problematic comment threads, there must be sufficient clarity about what makes comment threads problematic. The most effective way of establishing that probably is by poring over test cases, so here is one.

Under Magisch's answer to Creating a system for featuring posts. Tell the mods what you want, you can see the following two comments:

We should also look at an option to define "hot" as being something heavily discussed and therefore possibly with lots of downvotes. The announcement to this change certainly deserves to be "hot", but it wouldn't meet the "net score of +5" requirement. Looking at the "total votes per hour" or something like that might be a better indicator for "hotness". – Secespitus Jul 24 at 12:52

Echoing @Secespitus, considering how votes work on meta, wouldn't it be better to count the total number of votes? Meaning that -0/10, -10/0 and -5/5 posts all would be seen as equally important. – AkselA Jul 25 at 11:08

There used to be three further comments there addressing it, posted within a span of about two days. I will now paraphrase from memory:

@AkselA This would feature all the unremarkable downvoted questions. – duplode

@duplode Well, it would also feature all the unremarkable upvoted questions. Clearly additional criteria are needed. – AkselA

@AkselA Downvoted questions are far more likely to be unremarkable, though. In any case, featuring questions that at once have lots of downvotes and upvotes is a good idea. – [A third user]

Was there a need to delete those three comments, or of other moderator intervention?

(My own views on the matter are in a self-answer below.)

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  • 10
    This is a comment about a discussion about discussions about comments about meta discussions about Stack Overflow. I agree! Commented Aug 1, 2019 at 23:40
  • 26
    I've undeleted those comments. I strongly believe they should not have been deleted in the first place.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 2:14
  • This is Q&A at its best. Everything can be a question, can't it be? Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 15:19

3 Answers 3

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There was no need to delete those three comments, as they were neither misplaced nor causing problems. More specifically:

  • It was a short comment chain (five comments overall) that was unlikely to grow by any significant amount.

  • The tone of the discussion was constructive throughout.

  • There was no reasonable alternative destination for the comments. The non-deleted comments by Secespitus and AkselA clearly belong to the answer, as on-topic as suggestions of adjustments to Magisch's proposal. The deleted comments, which aimed at refining the suggestions, make little sense outside of their original context.

  • Each of the comments made relevant points, contributing, even if in a small way, to clarify the matter of which notion of hotness should an HMQ replacement aim at.

  • Magisch did not edit the answer to incorporate the suggestions in the comments, which would potentially have made them redundant.


On a broader note, my stance here reflects how I consider the first sub-item of Madara's proposal...

[Under "Off-topic comments are to be deleted":] If you have an issue with an implication from a comment (for example, a staff member or a moderator saying something that you think contradicts policy), please make a new meta question, and link to the original comment/post.

... untenable as a blanket rule. A comment does not become off-topic merely due to being a reply to another comment; it has to actually constitute a significant digression from the parent post to become off-topic. The concern in the parenthetical sentence of the first sub-item (which appears to be with comment threads veering off a tangent after someone with a diamond says in passing something controversial) is probably better addressed (or, at least, addressed without the kind of undesirable side-effects illustrated here) in the context of the second sub-item of the proposal, which is directly about derailment.

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    It's also untenable because it makes it VERY likely that comments would inappropriately deleted comments would not be reported. There were about two or three people who would likely remember these comments - you and AkselA were the authors and perhaps Magisch, as they were discussing his answer. Other people don't have as much of an investment in those and might not recall them, or notice they were gone, or even if they do on both fronts, might not post a question for them. Without knowing what's deleted, it's very hard to argue against deleting it.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 7:15
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George Stocker wants me to write an answer on this specific question detailling what would be a better use of mod time than deleting comments on meta. So here it is, in no particular order. As it's friday and after beer-o-clock, I hope nobody will object to a few attempts at humor, although I do honestly think every single one of these points is more important than "cleaning up" meta discussions.

  • Clean up the close votes review queue. That should be quick as nowadays most questions being asked on SO are of so little lasting value that you can probably just close them all without looking. After you're done, check the other queues - most things in the suggested edits queue can probably be rejected outright as well.
  • Go through your favourite tags and use your mod privileges to clean them up. In most tags it should not be too hard to find a lot of things that are of even less use to the site and community than a stray comment on meta.
  • After you've cleaned up, go answer questions in your favourite tags. Live the spirit of #SOreadytohelp and tweet about it to feel better about the mountains of trash you had to wade through to find decent questions!
  • Use your communication channel to the SE employees to make friends, raise their morale, lobby for important feature requests and changes, or instigate an uprising against the management which seems to have approved "shoot yourself in the foot" as the sprint goal for the last few iterations.
  • Answer support requests on meta, curate the FAQ questions, join discussions about topics that are important to you. You might even end up writing comments instead of deleting them.

That's all I could come up with off the top of my head. Now, should I flag this as NAA because it doesn't answer OPs question? (Here's where I would put the "thinking face" emoji if my browser would render it as more than a square with some numbers inside).

-46

If those comments existed on the post by themselves and we weren't moderating the post or its comments for any other reason, they would have stayed around, at least until a month or so went by and no one bothered to expound upon what "other criteria" meant by posting an answer.

I deleted those comments as a part of a larger cleanup on the post itself. Those comments themselves weren't broadly useful enough so that someone a month from now coming in to the comments would say, "Gosh, that's really helpful!", and since I was already in the post deleting comments, those would go too.

That's a pretty common occurrence for all moderation activities. If a moderator goes into a post and cleans it up, they're going to clean up everything that may need to be cleaned up before leaving generally. It's more efficient that way.

Some moderators choose to only intervene when things are flagged, other moderators choose to moderate as they happen across issues; and some moderators choose not to moderate at all outside of the flag queue. We don't prescribe a particular approach; that's why you'll see some moderators leave things alone and others won't. Moderators also moderate according to their personal beliefs that are sometimes written and sometimes un-written. I know of moderators won't as a rule won't moderate meta because they feel like it's a lost cause and not worth their time, others do. Some moderate comments, some moderate answers, some moderate vote circles only. Everyone has different areas of focus and interest.

Here's a screenshot of the post and the comments that were deleted; as the timestamps reveal, it was all done at once (if Rob hadn't undeleted them, you would also have seen the deletion timestamps for those two as well).

enter image description here

Incidentally, those two comments remind me of DenverCoder9:

enter image description here

If you really and truly are here to make things better for the community, everyone is well served when you put it into a viewpoint in an answer. It allows google to find it, it allows others to easily find it, and it allows you to expand upon that short 300 character snippet you posted in a comment. If you're really invested in making the community better, that's a worthwhile investment.

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    Err... There was nothing wrong with the comments, they were on-topic, and useful, yet you deleted them because you think they weren't useful enough? I think the existence of those comments is much better than the lack thereof personally and others seem to agree. The mandate of the mods is to enforce community policy, not create it out of thin air.
    – user4639281
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 14:26
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    I'm confused why you would reference that xkcd, because to me it seems that's exactly the kind of situation we will end up with if mods overzealously delete comments...
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 14:34
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    The "larger cleanup" seems to have left lots of the comments incoherent. Yvette goes from having a sensible back-and-forth with Magisch to dementedly repeating herself. Magisch's surviving reply to her is left looking irrelevant and out-of-place due to the comment of hers Mag is actually replying to being nuked. If you truly insist on going on these comment purges - which I don't think you should - could you at least take some more care and not leave fragmented, incoherent threads behind that unfairly make the participants look like idiots?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 14:44
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    @GeorgeStocker Okay so you feel its up to you to stop meta from pushing people away. Are you going to be Mod Thanos and every few years start deleting a flurry of comments when you arbitrarily feel meta has gotten too "rotten"? Why do you seem to stand alone in all of this? No other moderator seems to have the same issues you do with ticking Meta off in deleting stuff. Why do you think you are the one to "save meta"?
    – Krupip
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 14:53
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    George, I love your open and positive attitude and the way that you're trying to make things better in the way you think is best. But I really think you're barking up the wrong tree here, man. I know negative feedback on meta can be discouraging, but I hope that you take a look at the voting on your answers in the past week and use this as a learning experience. There are times when you have to work against the current for the better of the community, and I admire your willingness to do that. But this isn't one of those times.
    – scohe001
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 15:44
  • 4
    See Mith's extremely well received MSE post--we as a community want to be better! We want to make amends with staff and get back to the glory days. Perhaps I worded the end of my last comment poorly, but I really think you need to re-evaluate your approach to this problem. Almost every post/action I've seen from you recently seems like you're taking actions/making decisions without any community input and justifying it as "for the greater good." No one person can solve all of this. We need to be working together.
    – scohe001
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 15:55
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    I feel like you're missing the forest for the trees on these efforts. Clean up of comments on Stack Overflow proper is needed because you have to ensure that there isn't any extra noise attached to a person's question or answer, and you want to be sure that anything of actual value is preserved where it is most needed. Clean up of comments on Meta should really be done when the comment thread is truly out of hand. My eyes aren't seeing that they are.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 16:35
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    I would encourage you to take a break from doing all of this; while your intentions are good I get the impression that this is tantamount to a bull charging through a china shop already rocked by a 7.1 magnitude earthquake.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 16:36
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    @GeorgeStocker I'm sorry, but I don't see anyone in those deleted comments being uncivil to anyone else. Or shouting about anything. Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 16:36
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    Thanks for answering. (1) A problem with the separate answer suggestion in this case is that I had no intention of making a full-fledged HMP replacement proposal in the vein of Magisch's answer, and raising a minor point about it wouldn't have been enough to change my mind about doing so. That, however, does not affect the relevance of my comment in the context of the answer. (2) Whether a comment is useful enough to make people go "Wow!" is a non-trivial editorial call that, in my view, should not be a decisive factor when it comes to deleting relevant and otherwise unproblematic comments.
    – duplode
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 16:47
  • 8
    You state that you're on Meta on a quest to make things more civil (a noble goal)....yet you're deleting posts that are entirely civil? How does deleting those comments make things more civil? And if it doesn't make things more civil, then why are you bringing up civility in these comments?
    – mason
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 17:21
  • 7
    Wait, so you're deleting comments today because you think they might not be useful in a month? That's... ridiculous. Wait a month and then re-visit them for deletion if you think that. Such a criterion is basically the same as deleting a Q&A pair on main that's been answered/accepted because "OP has fixed their code so they no longer have the problem".
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 18:45
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    Meta hasn't been neglected - it was being moderated properly. Personal attacks were being removed. You're expanding your moderation of comments despite the -160 score of this question. Why? You're clearly doing the opposite of what the community wanted.
    – mason
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 20:22
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    @GeorgeStocker That doesn't address what my shock is. My shock is that you're trying to predict the future usefulness of a comment at some arbitrary point in the future and apply that future determination now. If it's not clear to you why that's problematic, then I implore you to return to ignoring Meta moderation immediately to avoid having that kind of improper moderation happen. It's not an issue to clean up posts or comment threads. It is an issue to delete a comment because you think it might not be useful 30 days from now.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 21:04

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