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Can we have another suggested edit reject reason, when much of the post is left in a mess after the edit?

example:

This edit does not fix many issues within this post.

I'm sure there's a better way to phrase it.

The no improvement whatsoever doesn't cover it, when the edit may have made improvements, but left a lot of formatting issues. The explanation for the rejection offers no guidance to the editor, and it would be better to let people know where they're going wrong.

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    We used to have "too minor" as a reject reason. I guess it wasn't nice enough.
    – J. Steen
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 11:59
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    when much of the post is left in a mess after the edit.. In such cases I go for reject-edit option. It improves the post.. And original editor can.. see what they missed
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 11:59
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    In cases like this I use causes harm if I don't want to edit and add a custom reason and if I do then I just reject and edit Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 11:59
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    @suraj it depends on how much time I have, whether I have time to edit
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 11:59
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    Maybe the CM team hopes you click [Improve edit] (or [reject and edit]) in these cases?
    – rene
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 12:09
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    If "no improvement whatsoever" doesn't cover it, then the official line is you should be accepting+improving the edit. If you don't like that, and want to give additional guidance, fill out a custom reason.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 12:16
  • @CodyGray there is no custom reason - causes harm is not really a general custom reason box
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 12:26
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    @YvetteColomb I once proposed to rename it to "Other". Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 12:27
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    No, that's really just a custom reason box. It doesn't say "causes harm" anywhere on the rejection. The idea is that you are only supposed to reject edits if they cause harm, though, not just on a whim. Obviously if you abuse it, someone will ask you to stop.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 12:28

6 Answers 6

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We used to have "too minor". But it was removed because SO felt that its meaning was unclear.
See here for Shog9's request to have it removed.

The decision was explained here (thanks to @Josh Caswell for pointing it out in their comment).

I would say the answer is "Yes, we should." Unfortunately, the official SO answer is "No".
The rationale is that "too minor" is ambiguous, one person's "too minor" is another person's "improvement" and vice versa.

The guideline is to edit yourself. Of course, that's assuming we have time to fix all that needs fixing.

As @Cody Gray points out in their comment, you could also reject with a custom reason. To be honest, I'm not sure that will do much. I've told countless editors not to use code markdown for product names, but they happily went on doing just that. So I don't think they give custom reject reasons much thought.

If you want to bring back "too minor", you'll have to give a clear criterion what constitutes "too minor".

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    Maybe we can have it back - but redefined - so as not to upset people?
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 12:00
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    @YvetteColomb Totally in favor. There are lot of "too minor" edits. The problem wasn't people getting upset, IIRC. It was that SO felt it was used wrongly. (Still trying to find back the details). Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 12:04
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    Interesting. I remember recently an individual was sanctioned for nakedly finishing for rep to vote in the election by searching for a single type of typo and then correcting that while leaving other obvious problems intact. Which begs the question: was that truly unacceptable behavior using the reasoning that resulted in the nixing of "too minor", or was the only problem that he spelled out his motivation in the description?
    – bitnine
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 12:29
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    @bitnine I remember the Meta discussion on that. The removal of "too minor" long preceded that incident. The problem was, of course, the shameless fishing for rep. Even so, edits should be judged on the merit of the edit, not on the motivation of the editor. Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 12:32
  • @bitnine I don't think that's a good edit description O-O
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 18, 2017 at 13:21
  • "If you want to bring back "too minor", you'll have to give a clear criterion what constitutes "too minor"." Shog explicitly told, that if it's too minor but a good edit, it should be approved or "reject and edit"ed otherwise: "can be blithely discarded in favor of a better edit" makes as much sense as anything - so, that's now baked into the UI: if you use the "Reject and Edit" review option, your edit will replace the edit you're reviewing [...] That rejection reason is the replacement for "too minor",
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 20:24
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It feels a bit odd that we have the guideline to always improve everything there is to improve when editing and not just editing some of it, yet there isn’t a way to properly reject edits that simply do not follow that guideline.

So maybe we need a “Not complete” rejection reason which also explains the exact guideline to the editing user. Having this as an actual reason would also help reviewers to finally accept that they should not approve edits that just do some minor changes.

Not complete

This edit is not complete. While it does improve the post, it leaves too many open issues that should be improved as well. Edits to posts should always try to fix all issues instead of focusing just on small improvements.

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    this is a good solution - as reviewers don't always have the time to fix the things that have been left behind
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 17:47
  • If the edit falls short, you should use Improve or Reject and edit. Why, you see the post, have identified more issues, etc., should the system waste that opportunity? Don't have time? Skip. Don't know if you can fix most? Skip too!
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 17:50
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    @Braiam “Improve and reject” signalizes to the editor that they did everything right when in fact they didn’t. And if I skip, then the next robo reviewer comes and just sees non-harmful edits and approves but otherwise ignores that the edit is not complete. – We have this guideline in place, it’s being mentioned all over on meta, so we should actually make it clear to follow it too.
    – poke
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 17:53
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    @poke you are mislabeling both buttons: Improve which is for good edits that just missed a couple of things, and Reject and edit which is for edits that missed the most pressing issues with the post. Both in conjunction can deliver the both message clearly: this was a good edit, but you missed this and you should have fixed the post like this. Only the improve button gives immediate positive feedback.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 18:43
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    @Braiam As Yvette already said, there isn’t always the time to do the edit yourself. And as you suggested, the alternative is to skip then, which I commented on.
    – poke
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 18:57
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    Then let someone else with the time to review it. How Shog has to drill that into the mind of the reviewers so they can understand it? If you aren't going to do a fair review of the edit you are reviewing, then allow others to do so. In fact, if you don't have the resources to do reviews, you are the least qualified to do reviews, since reviewing ask you about that much from the get go.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 19:13
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    @Braiam Did you actually bother to read my first response to you? Because I don’t see why you keep ignoring what I already wrote. – And you also kind of acknowledged what I wrote in my answer, that the average reviewers don’t care/know what is being discussed on meta, hence the request for this rejection reason.
    – poke
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 19:35
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    Because you seems to be revolving on the same point on and on: searching for an excuse to reject an edit instead of skipping it. Don't look for excuses! Just skip it.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 20:14
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    @Braiam You seem to be missing the point completely though. This isn’t about me. This is about teaching editors and reviewers that incomplete edits are not desired.
    – poke
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 20:17
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    Any edit that improves the post is explicitly encouraged! That it's complete or not, is irrelevant. If it does improve the post it should be approved. There's nothing on the help center that supports other course of action. Stop it.
    – Braiam
    Commented Aug 19, 2017 at 20:23
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    @Braiam what you are failing to see - is that is your opinion and how you see the reviewing should be approached - other points of view are also valid. Can you see that maybe we also have our ideas about it and as participants of the site, we're not forced labour that has to edit very messy posts - we are checking that the people who are - are doing the right thing. I edit my fair share of posts - 1751 to date. I sometimes do it when I'm reviewing - but frankly after editing a few posts like that - it can get tiring and I want a valid reason to reject them that will instruct the editor.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 20, 2017 at 1:01
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    @Braiam the site isn't static - it changes and meta is what shapes it. There's no point discussing it further as you refuse to accept that other people are entitled to their points of view and are arrogant enough to assume yours is the only valid one.
    – user3956566
    Commented Aug 20, 2017 at 1:40
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    I think poke was on to something there: a Reject and Improve button would let me continue on from where the previous editor gave up the will to type half-way through without a) giving positive feedback and b) making me repeat the edit-so-far. Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 8:21
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    @Braiam But "Only the improve button gives immediate positive feedback." and positive feedback is not appropriate. Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 11:24
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    I sympathize here, @Andrew... I often want to reject an edit for massive backtick abuse, and I end up having to do a bunch of work over again just because I refuse to hit "Improve" in these cases.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 11:48
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If the rest of the post is still a mess I just mark it as no improvement. The post was a mess before the edit and needed major revision (more than I can be bothered to fix with a reject and edit or accept and edit); and after the suggested edit the post is still a mess needing major revision; then this edit didn't improve things and you can use that as a reject reason.

Too minor doesn't work because people could use that to reject minor edits where there is nothing else to fix! But in this sort of case you are right to reject an edit.

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    "(more than I can be bothered to fix with a reject and edit or accept and edit)" - that'd be the moment where you hit the skip button and let someone else pick up the torch to reject & edit. The fact of the matter is that the post still needs editing so that should be the ultimate outcome; the fact that you don't have the time does not change that.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 7:19
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    @Gimby, perhaps not. It might not be worth editing. And even if it is the premise is that this edit was inconsequential to that work (or we'd accept it) or skip if we think someone else might accept & edit. But this is a reject.
    – dave
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 7:36
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While it is true that we should try to fix everything that we can in each edit, I don't like the proposed rejection reason.

With this proposal, the reviewers will reject edits that actually improve the post, if there are still other unrelated issues remaining. But stack overflow is a collaborative system, where people contribute based on their abilities and their time constraints.

I think that Incremental improvement should be encouraged, not discouraged. If somebody fixes the code formatting, but leaves a few typos, is that a detrimental edit? Isn't the post in a better shape than it was before? It still makes an unreadable post into a readable one. Somebody else may fix the typos if they bother them.

About the problem of wasting reviewer time, a better system would be to aggregate the suggested edits from multiple users on the same post, and have a reviewer approve the final outcome, after some delay.

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    Small edits are detrimental in that they fill up the queue with nonsense. They're just not a good use of reviewer's time. Furthermore, suggested edits confer rep when approved. Should we really be giving rep to users who tweak code indenting but leave massive spelling and grammar errors elsewhere in the question? Does that really help OP if their question is still a mess after the fact?
    – BSMP
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 13:37
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If it definitively improves the post but there is still more to improve, then clearly the right option is Improve Edit. Give them proper credit for helping out some and fix the additional problems you see. If you don't feel like improving the post further, then just Approve. It's better to improve the post some than to throw away the improvements that someone already spent the time to make.

In other words, let's not be dogmatic and insist on perfection or overly strict rules adherence in what's already a subjective matter. Let's focus on actual post quality. Quality goes up = approve. Quality remains same or goes down = reject.

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    I understand the point about dogma, but bumping old posts with minor edits is not useful for the site. Also it's not in the spirit of the site by gaming for rep with small edits, leaving obvious issues, and when there's plenty of bad posts that really need fixing.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 28, 2017 at 8:29
  • @YvetteColomb As I've said in the past, that the site handles minor or incomplete edits poorly is not a good reason to leave the site in a worse state. Those are reasons to change how the site works. Avoiding bumping or giving rep are horrible reasons not to improve a post.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 29, 2017 at 0:18
  • @YvetteColomb Besides that, your question starts from the assumption that the edit actually improves the post. Otherwise, the "no improvement" reason is directly applicable; note that it explicitly allows for "completely superfluous" in the description of that reason. So the rep is deserved, and bumping is a matter that the SE team needs to address instead of us leaving unimproved posts lying around.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Oct 29, 2017 at 0:24
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    Yes I do like your thinking. It's taking it from a view that is not often addressed and you're addressing the very reasons that are cited often for rejecting edits. Food for thought, food for thought.
    – user3956566
    Commented Oct 29, 2017 at 4:47
-1

Another suggested edit reject reason, when much of the post is left in a mess?

You already have that option:

Reject and edit.

Use it.

FWIW, I'm firmly on the side of "approve what improves" when it comes to reviewing edits, regardless of how. – Shog9♦ Sep 11 '14 at 15:23

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    Indeed. Well, use it when you're good at editing. Otherwise, skip.
    – Gimby
    Commented Aug 21, 2017 at 8:38

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