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We don't know if or when there will be another occasion that compels us to use our company voice to take a stance on something that's happening in the world. The fact is that we simply don't know what the world is going to be like for the people we serve, the people that work here or the climate in which we're striving to innovate and thrive. Frankly, that's a very good summary of many of the reasons that we chose to speak out against the immigration ban.

But the most important reason that we chose to speak out was because we firmly believe it was the right thing to do. It was the right thing to do by our employees that were affected directly by the ban or as a consequence of the ban, it was the right thing to do by our users all over the world that strongly identify with our view of what community means, and it was right of us to say: "that's wrong, it goes against our principles, it hurts our people and we shouldn't be doing it."

That didn't go as well as we hoped. While the post received a great deal of support from our users, it offended or angered others way more than we anticipated that it possibly could. To those in that group, we didn't intend to make you feel those feelings, and we certainly didn't want to make anyone feel that their voice wasn't as important as our own.

If we had to do it over, we'd definitely do it again, because it was the right thing for us to do. However, we would do it a little bit differently. While we hope the answer to "when might we feel compelled to speak out again?" is never, we're going to keep the following things in front of us if it turns out to be sooner than never:

Be as nice as we can be effective

If something threatens to undermine our business, our employees, or our view of what communities are to folks, it might be past the point where assuming good intentions remains a reasonable thing to do.

At the same time, it's better if we focus on what's wrong, how it relates to us, how it has or might impact us and very specifically why we feel it's important for all of you to consider it. Speaking out often means speaking with emotion, but we'll do a better job of tempering it.

Also, doing that sort of thing late on a Sunday night might not have been the greatest of ideas.

End with a call to action

If we're speaking out on something that we feel is a shared interest, we need to let you know what you can do to help. We also must be much more specific on what we expect you to share with us after reading what we wrote.

Make it belong here

There is an announcement on Meta Stack Exchange about a special new moderator-only tag, , (similar to 'featured' and the status tags) that if applied, will alter the way the question is presented.

It'll be clear that what you're reading is something from the Stack Overflow team, and we'll be clear about what kind of feedback we're hoping to get.

Most of the time we'll be using that tag to provide updates on things, announce new features, announce events or contests that we're either facilitating or participating in some way, or just the usual stuff that's dissertative or expository more than socratic or mutually-engaging.

We'll use this feature any time we speak as a company about something.

In conclusion

It's been a very tense week. I want to personally thank every single one of you that communicated with us in a civil manner, and for your patience as I promised that we would be writing up a response based on what we gathered and learned from what you had to say.

If this does happen again, and we sincerely hope that nothing as bad or worse than what we reacted to comes to pass, we will do what we feel is the right thing to do, and we'll do our best to do it a bit better than we did this time.

If you feel that we've overlooked something, or have anything else that you'd like to share with us regarding this, please leave an answer or a comment.


Update after a whole lot of discussion.

And I hope that this gets everyone to a place where they can feel good enough about this to move on, happily.

  1. We aren't saying that we'll never need to come engage with you here, or on MSO, if something really serious is going on in the real world and we need to not just post something but also have a conversation with you about it.

  2. In all cases going forward that we can currently envision, we'd probably use the blog, and if things get too crazy on the blog or too difficult to moderate (e.g. a lot of noise from people that aren't even users), create an announcement to open a discussion on meta instead.

But that has to remain our call, and it needs to be okay if we do it.

Thank you to everyone that provided input, again. We do listen, and we do try our best to find solutions that can best serve everyone's needs and preferences, sometimes including our own :)

New tag feature announcement here

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    I just don't think any of the stackexchange sites need these sorts of questions UNLESS you are asking a specific question (there is a site for it try politics, try expatriates, try ...<insert on topic se site>. But to post that stuff on meta.stackoverflow made no sense...it really didn't. Why wasn't it posted on meta.stackexchange? Just because the CEO doesn't like the policy / the president that does not imply all others feel the same way. Your new feature sounds like it is trying to go around the problem - so it's still a problem. You guys need to be neutral and on topic - so we follow
    – JonH
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:18
  • 69
    ...continued from above...Think of it like a workplace - if the manager is always going to be late and doesn't care his / her employees will do the same thing. If you guys want us to stay on topic and focus on REAL relevant topics that are on topic per the site you guys should abide by the rules. Don't break the rules and expect us to follow.
    – JonH
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:21
  • 44
    @TimPost - Why do you guys have to post it on the site's questions list? Why don't you do what you did when Steve Jobs passed away. It was not really a question on meta or any of the sites, it was a tiny banner that I believe linked to a blog.
    – JonH
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:22
  • 55
    @TimPost - Again you are going around your problem - your going to make people ignore a tag because they don't want to see something. Why don't you guys not post stuff that doesn't belong on the respective site. Trump and his policies have nothing to do with SO or meta frankly at all. Now if you question his policies or his directions you can post specific questions on politics or expatriates. And I read one of the employees answer's to Joel's question...his answer should be some sort of question on Expatriates - it's really out of scope to hear all that personal noise - sorry.
    – JonH
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:25
  • 48
    @JonH Meta has always been the place that we came to talk to our users. We're not breaking any rules by posting something on our own platform that we feel is extremely relevant to how we envision communities. We said "what just happened goes completely against that". I regret that we keep disagreeing here, I honestly hate being this at odds with you, but I can't get myself to a place where I agree that what we did was against the rules. I do agree that we could have done a much, much better job of it, but that was the whole point of the post.
    – user50049
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:34
  • 130
    SO was created by JS and JA, but what SO has become wasn't their direct doing. It was the doing of millions of people who came together, asking good questions and volunteering their effort to answer them. If it wasn't for those people, this website would not have succeeded. When you then take this platform and use it for your own personal political grandstand, you're taking advantage of all their efforts. They didn't come here to make a bully pulpit. It's rude, and inconsiderate, and it's narcissistic to believe abusing the trust of all these volunteers is the righteous choice. Stop it.
    – user1228
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:37
  • 68
    I do not see a response to the fact that a strong majority wants the post closed / deleted, and that another majority considers it not to follow the "Be Nice" policy.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:38
  • 43
    Why meta SO? His policies have nothing to do with programming. Come talk to us when it has something to do with THIS site or its parent site SO. Come talk to us about policies that affect what you guys are working on specific to SO or the META site SO, not Trump's policies. I think your user base is telling you guys how we feel. We don't need sob stories about people being left behind (FYI my Grandmother was not able to come over and we had her ready to come too - so its happening to a lot of people, but I didnt post on SO or Meta, I posted on expatriates as a valid question - look it up
    – JonH
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:40
  • 38
    @Jaydles - do what you like but you are going around the problem - again. And those silly contests and surveys relate to the site on hand..they aren't affiliated with religion or politics. I really get the feeling that you guys NEVER listen to your user base. It's a lost cause. I give up. I don't know how many times I post things only to have you guys try to get around a problem. Just be blunt about it and say you wont...stop going around in circles.
    – JonH
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:58
  • 42
    @canon The hours put in by countless users far outweigh the hours put in by the oligarchy. So feel free to attribute ownership however you'd like but this is my site too. Me and countless others, yourself included, have made it what it is by our investment. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 16:49
  • 36
    We'll Always Endeavor to Do What's Right which will always involve some comparison to some set of moral, ethical, religious etc etc values. Seems unlikely anyone at HQ will ever be able to speak for all 6,653,677+ users. As far as MSO is concerned, Whats Right ought start and end with SO, the QA site, site operations and the user base which makes it successful. For global issues, Joel can reach into his pocket and donate to MicroCelebrities Against Moral Repugnance, Just leave us out of it. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 17:57
  • 50
    @MartijnPieters You can't possibly speak for all users here which is pretty much the point. Neither can Joel. It takes a special kind of savvy to alienate your own user base in multiple ways simultaneously: those who disagree politically; those who resent being unwillingly associated with it; those who dislike the polemic tone; those who thought MSO was about SO not politics; and those that dislike the users-be-damned attitude to re-opening the post over and over...probably others. Also, the users disaffected are perhaps the most active on SO. I'm note sure many even know about MSO Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:30
  • 51
    What blows me away is that Tim has acknowledged that the concerns of those who find the text offensive are valid concerns, yet nothing has been done to address those concerns. Just a "Yeah, we see how you could feel that way. Sorry you feel that way."
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 19:42
  • 40
    I'm happy to see that we've progressed from the "say sorry like you mean it!" usually directed at five-year-olds to the "sorry, not sorry" phrase popular among today's fifth-graders. It's rude, but at least it's honest. Maybe one day SE will mature enough to deliver sincere apologies when it does something unwise. If we're very lucky, maybe SE will eventually acquire the wisdom not to do such unwise things in the first place. Try not to drive away too many users in the meantime. Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 1:14
  • 27
    You are SOOO missing the point that a huge number of users are angry because even though they agree with Joel, they find MSO (MS* for that matter) to be an inadequate medium for this. I've agreed with Joel from the beginning, but how the team has been handling this is more and more depressing with each turn. Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 1:52

21 Answers 21

141

Seeing the post on Meta didn't feel quite right to me, either - and I largely agreed with what it said. Certainly agreed 100% in spirit.

The company has every right to post commentary on political and social issues. Even though it was made great by its community, and hence owes it more attention and deference to its diverse-ness than your average company, that doesn't mean it's not allowed to express its views, especially where itself or its own employees are affected. (I would hopefully be saying the same thing if those views were massively against my own... possibly through more clenched teeth though.)

But Meta posts typically ask for some sort of community input on something practical that is still in flux and needs feedback that will be considered (a UI change, a policy change, whatever). The condemnation of a policy doesn't really ask for any such input beyond what a blog post's comments thread could perfectly adequately provide. (That's not to say that some of the contributions to the Meta post weren't important, or very moving. But they would have been that in a blog post, too.)

So in the future, let's keep statements on social and political issues on the blog, and off Meta. No one can make a serious "hey you're steamrolling the community with your opinions!" argument on the company blog.

Use every bell and whistle in your arsenal to make the community aware of important blog posts. There's a lot of possibilities. A logo change, a banner like the Steve Jobs one, a "featured" sticky in the side bar, hell, a notification in every user's inbox if it's a second SOPA comes along (or worse).

But let's keep it off Meta as much as possible, for the sake of everyone's sanity.

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  • 74
    Exactly. I am not arguing the content, but that post does not belong here. He knew it would cause a stir putting it here, because it doesnt belong here. That is why he did it. Shame on him for abusing his power, and shame on the moderators for backing him.
    – Zombo
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 16:56
  • 13
    The filter for "should we come here if it looks like a social or political issue?" is now beyond cautious. And I really wanted to say that in my post, but given a future that looks like it's going to be at least a little nuts for a while, I can't even really begin to comment on how we'll apply that. We could do this again, I don't think we will, we'll probably do it some other way (as in things you described) but with new precedence for crazy being set every day .. anyway, thanks for your answer :)
    – user50049
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 17:04
  • 2
    @TimPost but with new precedence for crazy being set every day youtube.com/watch?v=_hB7u7CYW1U
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 17:10
  • 11
    This is precisely what I posted and got down voted to oblivia! Maybe I should change my name to pekka.
    – JonH
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:27
  • 3
    @JonH yeah, it did not escape my attention that you essentially said the same thing.
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:30
  • 4
    @JonH it could be that Pekka posted later (I've noticed that your question has risen in net positive votes since I initially saw it.) Also, although Pekka's post is nearly identical in intended goal (don't post this stuff on meta again, plz,) the overall tone of his answer is gentler. Finally, Pekka does have some name-brand recognition with me personally for being nice. I even have a meta url saved with the notation 'good guy pekka'. (not saying you aren't a good guy, just that I have previously noted pekka's niceness)
    – Jeutnarg
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:49
  • 2
    Ya I guess Pekka is kind of snuggly and cuddly...:-)
    – JonH
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:58
  • 2
    @JonH it's funny - I'm German, and in German culture expressing criticism directly and bluntly is par for the course, it's really a sign that you care. That doesn't work for me at all - I'm not great at neither giving nor receiving criticism that way, so perhaps it's because of that that I've developed a much softer writing style (and also get pissed off quickly when someone is blunt to me.) Incidentally, I tend to get along much better in everday life in the US... I'm happy to take a "thanks for your business" superficial smile & a disinterested "how are you" over Euro grumpiness any time. :)
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 19:04
  • 3
    That may be the case, but I primarily upvote your content because I want you to stick around for some more of those genuine handbags.
    – Bart
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 19:11
  • 2
    @Bart and you will not be disappointed. We will be having the best handbags!
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 19:12
  • Right on the mark. No matter how much I agreed with that post it just didn't feel right having it here. I wanted to close it, I wanted to open it... it fried my circuits.
    – Dalija Prasnikar Mod
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 21:07
  • 34
    @TimPost Honestly, the "filter" for "should we come here if it looks like a social or political issue?" should be no. Put. It. In. The. ********. Blog. Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 0:14
  • 16
    I feel bad writing a sentence of words followed by periods, because I think that's a stupid way of emphasizing stuff, but I honestly just don't understand why you guys don't seem to think that the blog, which is defined as the place for the company to publicly promote/espouse/defend/etc its own values, and which you can link to in the "featured" box to utilize your free soapbox points, would have been the perfect place for Joel's post. Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 0:17
  • @StevenPenny I don't think you can pin this on the mods.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 12:21
104

What a disappointment

After all the mess caused by changing the logo just because Joel is homosexual, I thought the team would have learned the lesson that it's better to avoid political matters on Stack Overflow. That question was properly locked with this message:

This question exists because it has historical significance, but it is not considered a good, on-topic question for this site, so please do not use it as evidence that you can ask similar questions here.

So when I saw the outrageous question I was surprised. While I somewhat agreed with the contents, it was completely out-of-place.

At first I refrained from voting, I wanted to see how it would turn out before acting. But there was a great consensus from the community that it needed to be closed. Surprisingly, various Stack Overflow employees kept abusing their binding votes to reopen the question against the will of the community.

Basically, Joel violates the policies of the site because he is the CEO, and his team enforces his view. Some elected moderators disagreed with the reopening, but I guess they were too afraid that their powers would be revoked if they used their binding votes to close or lock.

So it turns out all the "we believe in community moderation" and similar messages were just bullshit, a carrot to attract users so that the company can make more money. This destroyed all sense of community I had. I no longer knew what I was doing here, so I logged out on all devices, removed all links to Stack Overflow from my browser's newpage, and decided to refrain from contributing to to the community.

I just kept an eye to meta just in case something changed. Today I saw this question, and I hoped you would apologize, recognize this was a big mistake, and lock the question.

But you just complain about people disliking the question, say you would do it again, and that you will introduce a new tag for this kind of questions. Which means there will be more of them, of course.

So nothing to do here. I won't remove my account and might ask some question from time to time, but I will stop posting answers, comments and voting. It's sad it turned out like this, last year I was among the top 100 users who earned more reputation, and I was also one of the most active dupehammer wielders. I never imagined I would have to make a decision like this. But well, recently I reached 100k, which seems a good point to quit.

Bye bye

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    I agree with every sentiment expressed here, but will miss your contributions both on main and meta. You have contributed quite a lot of useful content.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 20:17
  • 11
    If I may make a simple request here, it's that you do not abandon stackoverflow.com. I agree with your comments: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/342941/2642059 Your decision to abandon Joel for his bullying is, I believe, a justified protest, but I'd appeal to you on behalf of all of us users who make up the site. By abandoning Joel you are also abandoning us. I'd stress that in spite of the damage done there is still more good than bad here. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 20:55
  • 12
    Why quit the whole site because of something that happened in a part of the site which you can ignore almost all the time? Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 22:09
  • 46
    He didnt say quit the site: he said he wasnt going to donate free labor to help moderate the site and provude free content [to a site that marginalizes the wishes of the "community] (bracket content mine because it would be bad to automatically associate someone with what I say). @dorukayhan Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 22:17
  • 3
  • 3
    Suggested title change: "Time to take a hike." I sincerely hope to find you here again when heads have cooled, tempers have been tempered, questions need answering, and maybe some dupes need hammering.
    – Jongware
    Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 11:50
  • 3
    "various Stack Overflow employees kept abusing their binding votes to reopen the question" Can you see who reopened then? I'm a member of the community and I voted to reopen it once, and I don't work for SO. I can't have been the only one, and there's a large net upvote on the question so the will of the community was in action. It just didn't match your will.
    – weston
    Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 17:49
  • 8
    @weston I'm a little stunned. I'm not sure, but it may be more disappointing to me than Joel's bullying that some members of the community actually support such bullying of their fellow members. The rules against political, religious, or product soliciting are there to protect the minority not the majority. I beseech you to cultivate an open and considerate community which supersedes political view. Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 18:57
  • 3
    @JonathanMee I don't regard views on homophobia and xenophobia as political views. If you don't respect all people, why would you be taking part in StackExchange at all?
    – weston
    Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 19:27
  • 22
    @weston This train of thought is exactly the one used in the justification of Joel's bullying. It says: "This isn't politics, I'm right opposition is wrong; and there's nothing wrong with me calling out those who oppose me, cause they're not welcome here anyway." That's not a conversation, it doesn't take time to understand opposing views, or why they're held it just quashes them. Such behavior is by definition "xenophobic". I don't have any problem with xenophobes, such as Joel, being a part of SO, but I ask that per the rules they keep their political views to themselves. Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 4:12
  • 9
    @weston Why should it matter what anyone's views are on any subject? We're here to solve programming problems.
    – mason
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 15:44
  • 3
    @weston Why do people need to accept those views in order to have meaningingful participation on Stack Overflow?
    – mason
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 20:01
  • 3
    @weston Woah, who said we should pretend that we like them? My point is that it should't be brought here to Stack Overflow in the first place if it's not on topic because that's not what Stack Overflow is about. Even if I agree with the position someone is posting, it doesn't mean that this is an appropriate place for it.
    – mason
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 21:02
  • 15
    I would upvote 1000 times if I could. The community drives this network, and enforcing personal political agendas is not the way to go - and has consequences of alienating users. I really don't want to see you go, with all the amazing contributions to this site you've given, but maybe it's the only way to tell the authority that this shouldn't happen again.
    – Andrew Li
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 1:59
  • 3
    Honestly, I'm just happy to know you're alive. You've been an active contributor since the day I joined SO. Then suddenly, poof! You're gone. What a relief you're okay! ... And I hope you come back. Your contributions help tens of thousands of people (including me). That's much more important than anything else going on here. In any case, thank you. Your answers and comments are always excellent, and I've become a much better thinker and coder reading your work. Commented Jun 19, 2017 at 12:15
84

It seems to me the lessons here have not been properly learned

Ultimately what I got from reading this is "We're sorry we posted this on MSO instead of MSE or the blog... and that is about it." I really don't think any of the fundamental disagreements are being addressed here.

it might be past the point where assuming good intentions remains a reasonable thing to do.
[…]
Speaking out often means speaking with emotion, but we'll do a better job of tempering it.

This reads very much like 'sorry we pissed some of you off, but if we get really mad then next time we're going to do it again anyways'. That is not cool. This time I happened to agree with Joel, but next time I might be "morally repugnant." And lets not treat this like its some niche extremist view only supported by a few. There are literally tens of millions of Americans that support this ban. That is not even counting international folks.

Joel made offensive commentary directed at tens of millions of people. You just said it might happen again. That is not cool.

Most of the time we'll be using that [new] tag to provide updates on things, announce new features, announce events or contests that we're either facilitating or participating in some way, or just the usual stuff that's dissertative or expository more than socratic or mutually-engaging.

So we're making a new tag, that sounds very much like the existing featured tag, but is not the featured tag. This tag will involve stuff that seems to include what was formally included in featured, but will also include whatever the next potentially divisive issue you guys post about.

How exactly is the filtering here suppose to work then? How do I block the new tag without also blocking the actual useful stuff? This really makes no sense to me.


A voice from Joel

Your response is also missing some critical parts. Namely, a response from Joel. I get it, you're the community manager and its your job to interact with us and be the authoritative voice.

But you have no authority over Joel. He is the CEO, and you are the subordinate. He basically went over your head this time, and there is nothing to stop him from doing so again next time. Moreover, we have heard from moderators that the CEO gets "special treatment". So no offense, but on matters regarding Joel's behavior in specific, I'll trust no one's word but Joel's. I want to see a response from Joel with his plans for the future so that I can point to them in case of a next time.

Why this?

You also don't address the common criticism of essentially arbitrary choice of issues. What about the many other large issues in the world that affect many many more people? Lack of internet? Censorship? Poverty? Why is it that a highly publicized issue that realistically only affects developers on the scale of maybe tens of thousands is more important than issues that affect tens or hundreds of millions of developers?

Why can't we stop the bleeding?

Finally, you don't adequately address why we're keeping Joel's original post around and not shutting it down in some way (locking or histo-locking). JPMC26 had an excellent answer on why the post violates just about every part of the be nice policy. This again feels like you're invoking "special treatment" for the CEO that signs your checks.

13
  • 7
    "This reads very much like 'sorry we pissed some of you off, but if we get really mad then next time we're going to do it again anyways'." -- It doesn't seem so to me. I read "a better job of tempering it" as being more careful to avoid language that might be (taken as) offensive.
    – duplode
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:42
  • 24
    The polemic tone is only part of the issue (though a big part). Joel could take a stand against clubbing baby seals and I still would not want to be associated with them. I'm a grown up. I have my own opinions. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 19:17
  • 9
    @duplode to me it seems like 'we'll try, but no promises, and you can't really complain if we fail'. That's not good enough for me. It effectively changes nothing. I tried to temper my emotions in this comment, but Joel was stupid. Oh well, I tried. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 23:03
  • 11
    ""We're sorry we posted this on MSO instead of MSE or the blog" ? Did I read the post above too hastily? They don't even mention the blog. Even the "make it belong here" section doesn't seem remotely like an apology of any sort. Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 0:21
  • I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt there because I think they might be leaving the door open for some totally different solution. But technically you are right, and it is a little concerning. Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 1:22
  • 16
    This, 1024 times. This is why I came down so hard on Joel's post with the Be Nice policy. By my reading, the entire point of Be Nice and on-topic policies is to prevent exactly these kinds of issues from occurring. If Joel thinks those policies hindered him this time, why wouldn't he ignore them again? Not to mention the most upvoted answer compares half the community to Nazis just for thinking the post was inappropriate. The staff isn't even editing out that level of inflammatory content.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 19:51
  • Are you sure most of the outrage is actually content independant and not because you disagree with the specific views expressed in joel's post? I think it can be hard to seperate in this case, especially since it must feel like betrayal when you're told by the CEO of the company that you're immoral and worse.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 12:38
  • 1
    @Magisch In my case I agree with Joel, I think the EO is bad and has many problems. I just don't like that Joel is using the network as his soap box. But I'm sure there are many other cases where people are angry because they genuinely disagree with Joel. I posted a link above, but some surveys say that the EO has a 49% approval rating. Even if that number is grossly overestimated its still tens of millions of people that agree with the EO. Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 12:47
  • @DavidGrinberg As a contention. Suppose you agree with Joel. That means you believe (like Joel) that the EO is so bad that anyone who is not strongly against it is acting immoral. Wouldn't it logically follow if someone held such a belief that they wouldn't mind excluding the people they believe are inevitably immoral?
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 12:50
  • 3
    @Magisch I disagree with your premises. I don't think anything like "the EO is so bad that anyone who is not strongly against it is acting immoral." And I also believe that no matter your political view, if you start excluding voices of dissent you are ultimately a harm to yourself. Also this discussion is veering out of scope of comments, so you might want to open a chat Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 12:56
  • @DavidGrinberg I didn't say these were my premises, these are the premises of Joel Spolsky's opinion as laid out in the post, which you claim to agree with.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 12:58
  • @Magisch I'm not going into the details of how I agree with Joel and how I don't in comments. It's honestly not even relevant. If you want the details feel free to open a chat Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 13:21
  • 9
    @Magisch It doesn't matter if you think other users are acting immorally. That is not a criteria in the Be Nice policy. Do you want SO flooded with people shouting each other down over abortion? Because I guarantee you both sides of that issue have very strong opinions about the morality of everyone involved. The Be Nice policy is there to ensure that everyone is treated with respect regardless of their opinions because doing otherwise disrupts the site. By violating it, SO staff disrupted the site's normal workings. Preventing this is why Be Nice and on topic policies exist.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 19:11
53

First, I too have decided to leave the community (deleted by animuson♦, undeleted by Tim Post♦).

I would not like to see this implemented.

I feel the post stepped out of bounds on the scope of this site in general. Had it been a topic specific to MSO or SO in general than meta.stackoverflow was the right place...but it wasn't.

You cannot force people into what you feel is right or wrong. If you have a question on politics and the direction that the president is taking you need to post specific questions to the respective sites (politics or expatriates). Come on guys we've defined all of this for years. For the CEO to break that policy is NOT right.

I understand your employees were affected by this recent ban. But your employees are not the only ones affected by such a decision. But to post it on meta stackoverflow was a strange move made by someone who should be leading the community to always be on topic and to post questions / comments to the right sites.

As I mentioned in my comments - I personally was affected by this decision too but I didn't mention it in SO / MSO I mentioned it in expatriates. The right place to ask these sorts of things or to get clarification.

Now you want to implement some tagging type system for this and I still disagree with this decision.

Possible alternative

I think we should go back to what we did when Steve Jobs passed away. We had a small banner that appeared on the SE sites that linked to a blog post talking about Steve Jobs. It was not a question on any site nor was it a comment on any of the se sites. It was simply a very small banner at the top that users could click on to read more.

If you didn't care for it you close the banner and a cookie keeps it hidden for some amount of time. The banner would go away after 2-3 days. It was nice, and it didn't get stuffed into a slew of questions or answers on a site that was used just to get some traction. It did not become a question or an answer. It didn't ruin your search engine nor was it searchable within the scope of the site. It was gone...

My point being - don't do this in the future and avoid even implementing what you plan to implement because you are going around your problem.

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  • 14
    It's not like the banner was uncontroversial. You just heard a lot less about it because there wasn't a comment and answer textbox positioned immediately underneath it. Which, to me, actually seems worse. The logic is the same as why I was very much against locking Joel's question. The only thing worse than a contentious discussion is a pronouncement from upon high that you can neither respond to nor disagree with. This does the "bully pulpit" accusation one worse. No one here was told that they could not disagree with Joel; that would have been an abuse of power.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:56
  • 1
    A lot of people here are really immature, there should be some mechanism for downvoting. Disagreeing shouldn't be a reason for downvotes.
    – Developer
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:57
  • 2
    But the feature itself isn't about politics. Its about creating a space for SO to communicate with folks that dosen't quite fit in meta in a very strict, legalistic sense. Don't forget the original vision of SE i.sstatic.net/FHX9P.png Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:57
  • 3
    No you're simply good at what you do. You capture the essence of the answer right there in the very first sentence. Good job, I downvote too :) I don't think any answer here is going to net a positive score, the community is too divided on the subject matter.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:58
  • 19
    @Developer downvotes and upvotes have pretty much always been the way people show assent and dissent in meta as long as I've been on this network. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:58
  • 1
    @JourneymanGeek that's a pity. It essentially removes the voice of people with unpopular opinions, instead of encouraging discussion.
    – Developer
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 15:01
  • 8
    @Developer But the tradeoff is outside meta.se (ex meta.so), downvotes here don't affect reputation on meta. I don't get how it silences anyone. I've got answers with negative scores there too, and I don't let that stop me from posting. Its a fundamental part of how meta works, and the community, and the folks who help run it know what's what. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 15:04
  • 13
    @Developer bear in mind that the whole idea of posting a suggestion on meta is precisely to see if it's popular. Not if it's good, correct, beneficial or anything else: only popular/not popular. That's what the votes or for. If it's not popular, then it should be downvoted. That's kinda the whole idea.
    – terdon
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 15:12
  • 5
    @Developer It has nothing to do with maturity. It is how Meta works. Downvotes on meta in no way remove the voices of people with unpopular opinions; if people are downvoting, they're reading the opinion.
    – Beofett
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 15:24
  • 5
    Well, I did read what you posted. I guess I got confused about what exactly you were proposing. The Steve Jobs memoriam banner was neither dismissible, nor did it contain a link to anything. So I guess you are proposing to add both of these things for the next iteration. Still, I don't understand why something being searchable is suddenly a bad thing. If you aren't interested in it, then you don't search for it. Being "gone" is not a unique feature. If you want all this to be gone, you just delete the Meta questions about it.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 15:42
  • 11
    @JonH It doesn't take more than about 3 seconds to read the bold sentence opening your answer and decide you disagree with it, and then downvote it. There's no need to read the rest of the post if you've read the question, support the initiative, and then see a sentence posted in an answer "I don't support this", and know you will disagree with it. If you want people to read all or more of your answer before they know what it's about, put your opinion in the middle somewhere. This is a common press tactic called 'burying the lede'.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 17:28
  • 2
    @JonH: Okie doke. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:11
  • 2
    @JonH Sorry, didn't know it was an edit. However, looking at the revisions, all you did was bold the first line and hit enter (WRT what we are talking about). So, the same scenario occurs: a person reads the first sentence of your post, disagrees, votes down.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:41
  • 6
    I'm very confused as to why your meta question was deleted by a moderator. Now it cannot be undelete unless by another moderator
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 2:26
  • 7
    I do have the required rep to see the question, and know that you have contributed a lot of useful content on main as well as meta. I don't see the reasoning for the deletion.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 3:10
44

As an avid user of SO I can't help but feel Joel Spolsky is bullying my fellow users who disagree with his political views. From the post in question:

Stack Overflow is successful because of the contributions of everyone, regardless of nationality or religion. If Stack Overflow were not a free, open, and welcoming community that ignored borders, it would never work.

One of the subsets of "everyone" is the group of people that agreed with Donald Trump's executive order. However unpopular that group may be outside of SO, I want to think that they can come to SO and not feel criticized for their political views.

That said I'd appreciate if that group kept their political views to themselves, if they post their ideals as questions or answers on SO or on MSO I expect such posts to be censored either by editing out politically charged portions or outright deletion. Furthermore if they persist in such behavior I expect to see account punishment.

Those that agree with Trump's political views needn't worry though, they will also be sheltered from political views which oppose theirs by the same rule. If someone posts political views which disagree with Trump's I expect such posts to be censored either by editing out politically charged portions or by outright deletion. Furthermore if they persist in such behavior I expect to see account punishment.

If such political posts were tolerated from only one side it would be nothing short of bullying. I've made some minor edits to the original quote which I think are applicable here:

Stack Overflow is successful because of the contributions of everyone, regardless of nationalitypolitical view or religion. If Stack Overflow were not a free, open, and welcoming community that ignored borderspolitical views, it would never work.


I suppose I should respond to your proclamation here directly. The only way to take the bullying out of what you guys persist in doing would be to:
Provide opportunity for the opposing political view to have an equal say with equal immunity to closing.

Such a thought sickens me, cause the right way to handle this would be to return to the days when political questions and answers had no place on SO or MSO.

1
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    +1 for the final section. If political posts are EVER on-topic, this will either become a highly censored (and therefore extremely slanted and biased) political message board, or it will become 4chan.
    – Wildcard
    Commented Feb 22, 2017 at 20:53
43

I'd like to express my opinion as well. I am actually not quite sure what difference it will make considering Stack Exchange doesn't seem to want to listen to its community anyway, but here goes:

I was really shocked the day that I saw the post. I read it, and I personally agreed with the statement it was making, but then in the weeks following I started to realize what the post meant, and subsequently up-voted the posts and answers calling for it to be removed.

Reading some of the comments on this post itself make me sick, hearing about how the moderators would use "binding" votes that would overpower anything the community wanted to do. That is not how you should be using your power. Your job is to moderate according to what MSO stands for. And it does not stand for making political statements on behalf of everyone on the site.

There's been multiple people saying that "well if so many people up-voted Joel's post, then how are we poorly representing people's beliefs?". Well, I think that lots of people are like me. At first, I up-voted the post because I believed in what it said. But I completely disagree with it being on MSO in the first place. Also, think about all of the people who don't visit MSO enough to even see this post. You can't just assume that they would whole-heartedly agree with everything it said.

Moreover, Joel's whole post is very offensive. I am American, and I was really shocked when President Trump won the election, but eventually I came to terms with the fact that millions and millions of Americans voted for him. For Joel to just assume that all of these people are bad is very unreasonable. I very much disagree with this part of the post, and helped me realize why political posts like these can be harmful.

My thought: get rid of it. If you don't, you are just going to see more and more influential members of SO leave, and you are going to make your own community not trust you anymore. I am not personally going to leave, because I still value the service that SO provides. But it makes me more uncomfortable being involved with the community, and makes me question: really how much does my voice matter?

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  • 13
    Thanks for a well written thoughtful answer. I also feel embarrassed of our new president and some of his decisions. Yet I could never see myself leaving, after all we'll just pick someone else in 4 years. In a satirical turn of events, I find myself embarrassed as an SO user by our CEO's bullying. Remind me... How do we elect a new CEO in 4 years so this bullying will stop? Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 16:40
  • 6
    @JonathanMee Well since we can't elect a new CEO we've just got to try and find ways to make our voices heard. To make sure the moderators know that we aren't happy with what went down. Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 16:44
41

I'd like to see a statement/apology from Joel himself, because he more or less dumped his question here and then did not interact with the community at all, which I find to be rude. I'm saying this irrespective of the actual question content.

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    To me Joel was just the messenger, this was a joint venture put forth by the team. And the team has been quite responsive.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:37
  • 29
    I saw the post literally minutes after it went out, and at that time, I didn't anticipate any real negative reaction at all. I'm the director of community management and I told Joel it was good - that makes it my responsibility. On the other hand, I agree that more Joel around here and there is always nice to have, but I seriously wouldn't want to have his schedule.
    – user50049
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:38
  • 1
    @Gimby: Not quite. The team was involved, but it was mostly Joel that had to get the message out asap. (Read from here)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:39
  • 13
    @Tim Post: Stack Overflow, where the CEO answers to the director of community management :)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:39
  • 13
    @TimPost: Don't you agree that the initial wording of the post was "sub-optimal"?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:40
  • 21
    TBH: I'm really personally angry because of the ban, and failed to realize how much unconscious bias that creates - just something I learned through this. That's probably why I didn't make a third or fourth pass at the initial wording. To be clear, I don't think it was bad at all, these sorts of things tend to sound a bit forceful and emotional, but I didn't realize how some of the language could alienate folks.
    – user50049
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:40
  • 1
    @Cerbrus fair enough, the failure is that it was put out ASAP which is just a wonderful way to produce quality content. That indeed is not a team effort.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:42
  • 28
    This makes very little sense to me. You're angry at Joel abusing Meta as a platform, but you want him to come interact more with the community? Also, I just don't understand how posting a question and not interacting with the community is "rude". Questions are not "interactions", and the original author is not required for…anything. It was a [discussion], people were meant to discuss, and they did. You don't need the original author to discuss. He has little more to contribute beyond what was in the initial question. You just want an apology, but that assumes he feels he did something wrong.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:45
  • 18
    @CodyGray It's clear to me at this point that it's useless to further argue that Meta shouldn't be abused like that, so I don't want to put any additional energy into that. Whether or not you found it rude does not change the fact that I found it rude, though.
    – user247702
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 14:51
  • 5
    @Stijn - Great point - it's a waste of energy for such a topic that should of never made it on this site. And to then post a possible solution and provide feedback only to have people downvote it seconds into giving possible feedback - I mean did you even read the post folks?
    – JonH
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 15:11
  • 9
    Joel's never been the type for a lot of interaction. He posts something, that's normally it. Part of it might be down to his quasi-celebrity status - whenever he says something, a thousand responses are guaranteed to pop up and there's likely no way to interact with every one of them even if you wanted. I guess it's take it or leave it... FWIW I don't think it's an expression of disdain or anything like that
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 16:44
  • 2
    @CodyGray Perhaps the point Stijn is making is that, by interacting more with meta, Joel would better know not to abuse it in such a way. A pipe dream, I think.
    – TylerH
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 17:31
  • 8
    There will be no apology we firmly believe it was the right thing to do. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 22:28
  • 17
    @TimPost To be honest, attending to the fact that a large amount of people are pissed off on the site you're the CEO of should probably become a top priority in his agenda - so the fact that he has a busy schedule is a non-issue. There's no reason to have no response for a week now. The fact that he 'doesn't have time for' something that he caused is quite telling. He had time to post a rant, though.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 0:31
  • 2
    @TimPost I see that Joel is still too busy to respond to his controversy, but not too busy to make an hour long podcast (final version, not including outtakes) that totally ignored the storm he raised. Commented Feb 22, 2017 at 1:54
39

I hoped you would have said there would be no next time.

You had the opportunity to apologize. But you didn't listen to the community that built your site.

  • No apologize for this mess
  • Nothing about the be-nice policy you didn't follow
  • Nothing about power abuse from mods
  • Not a single word from your CEO that is responsible for all of this

Even worse, you're basically saying "hey, we hope we won't have to, but if needed we're 100% will do this mess again".

What a disappointment. I'm done with this site. I won't allow SO anymore to speak on my behalf without my consent in another similar future political post.

I'm keeping my account because, hey, I might need to ask questions from time to time.

But today is the day I stop actively contributing to SO. No more of my free time will ever be given to SO. I'm done.

Bye.

3
  • Putting a huge disclaimer on your profile stating that none of the political posts on Meta necessarily represent your views could be a much less destructive way to resolve this than just leaving. Commented Feb 11, 2017 at 3:29
  • 1
    @dorukayhan, does that logic apply to other boycotts? How about Chick-Fil-A? You could wear a badge when you go to eat there: "I don't agree with the political views of the company management, but I like chicken." Wouldn't that be a less destructive way to resolve your difference than boycotting them?
    – Wildcard
    Commented Feb 22, 2017 at 20:55
  • 3
    When you start political activism, you may gain the support of people who agree with your views irrespective of the quality of your product...and you may lose the support of people who disagree. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too, as Macy's discovered. Businesses are wise to stay out of politics.
    – Wildcard
    Commented Feb 22, 2017 at 20:56
33

I've said it once and I'll say it again.

I don't care if it's about letting unicorns marry unicorns or stopping the ban of waffles from pancakeland -- Don't enforce your political agenda on me.

I haven't been part of the community for long, but I love it. It's a great place to share knowledge, so don't contaminate it like the darned Mongols did to the Islamic Golden Age. Looking back, I thought the fiasco that ensued the logo change may have taught you a lesson, but no, it didn't!

It's clear the community isn't happy with what has happened this past week or so -- just because you have power doesn't mean you should use and abuse it. Attempting to suppress community feedback is basically censorship. Posting the question on here was basically saying "Here's what we, the employees, think. Better follow it or else you have no place here!" With this latest post, you again say "Bah, some people didn't like it, so what. The community doesn't matter and we'd do it again."

Your repeated ignorance to listen to the community has consequences, dire ones. We the community allow this site to flourish and make it what it is today. How can you build a building without builders? And similarly, how can you spread knowledge without anyone to spread it? The simple answer is that you can't.

A 106k user has left. Another 24k user has went on hiatus. Look at those reputation levels -- think about the amount of time and commitment to this community they have spent! The users power this site and make it happen. If you people, as staff, decide to alienate these users who have spent and sacrificed so much to allow this site to succeed and help millions, there will be nothing left to staff. Nothing left to moderate. There will be no community.

A house divided against itself cannot stand.

This quote from Abraham Lincoln's famous speech holds true, especially here. If you decide to enforce your views and censor others, you will not last. The consequences have already started, and you've lost valuable people. I'm a firm believer in the first amendment, and also a firm believer in differing views. If you can't accept and respect that, I see no reason for me to be here. I really want to see this site grow even bigger, helping even more people, but you, as the people in power, must listen to the community that keeps you alive.

Sincerely,

A user in distress

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  • 5
    I just uprooted @Fermiparadox answer and commented that I'd upvote it 100 times-fold. This? More like 1000 times. All of your message - both critical and praising - strike home with me.
    – user7014451
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 5:40
  • 6
    Ironic that you quote Abraham Lincoln, given his stance on slavery and staunch unwillingness to accept any compromises that went against his own moral convictions. Pretty sure he's a man that had no problem enforcing his views on others. We just recognize with historical distance that he was right.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 12:54
  • 3
    @Cody it is ironic that even though all of that is true, the quote itself is still applicable.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 16:01
  • 1
    Virtually any quote is applicable when you take it out of context...
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 7, 2017 at 10:25
  • 1
    "clear the community isn't happy with what has happened this past week or so" . The vote split on the "Time to take a stand" question is currently +2005 vs -369 so it is not clear that "the community" as a whole has that view. It is clear that part of the community is alienated by it though. Commented Feb 12, 2017 at 12:14
33

This resolution has not addressed fundamental problems with the post, or the role of community moderation: It is an unapologetic, self-affirming plea for calm, but with undertones that similar actions are on the horizon no matter the level of discontent.

First and foremost, Stack Exchange is a great resource and I want to see it succeed. Above all else, I value the quality and purity of content, professionalism, and community moderation. Its a refreshing sanctuary from constant discord in the media, etc. - and my optimism is renewed when I see talented people working together, united in common pursuits.

Joel's post and the SE response contradict the core ethos we collectively respect and enforce. I'm troubled that this was a calculated post/position by the SE team, not just a misplaced rant by an employee. That makes his their harsh language and hypocrisy harder to dismiss. Avoiding further (unwanted) debate, please understand that complex issues (like this) cannot be simplified to moral absolutes or monolithic statements. I hope SE employees are free to have tempered views without feeling condemned.

The way it was posted and forced on the community is alarming. Community moderation is central to Stack Exchange. Despite valid community objections, the repeated use of unilateral power to force opinions on the community marks a shift in power within Stack Exchange. Despite your justifications, I fear your action/responses have damaged what you claim to protect. Your actions deeply divided (in many ways) the global and diverse community that coexist(ed) peacefully.

Ultimately, it seems the SE team believes in community moderation only when it suits them. Stack Exchange exists because millions of people donated their time and expertise. To me, using it as a political grandstand abuses our trust and efforts - its conceited to believe it was noble.

Worse, you openly allude to similar posts in the future, and are actively preparing to limit future community moderation. I firmly believe that Stack Exchange sites should remain free of political debate (unless explicitly on-topic). Future statements should be posted on the blog, where fallout is limited.

Until these core disagreements are mended, I foresee similar problems - and that makes makes me less likely to participate as frequently.

2
  • TBF you hardly participate frequently before this with 14 votes cast, 9 Questions and 4 answers over 2 years, 9 months on the main site. Commented Feb 12, 2017 at 10:13
  • 1
    @MartinSmith Everybody has different amounts of time they can or want invest, so "frequently" has to be viewed in relation to each user. I think the spirit of the post is about the reduction of invested energy, not about reaching a goal of n posts/votes/reputation, at least I understood it that way. Also, theNamesCross is currently ranked inside the top 49%, so more active than half of all users, if you want to talk hard numbers ;-)
    – user121391
    Commented Feb 15, 2017 at 15:41
23

If this does happen again, and we sincerely hope that nothing as bad or worse than what we reacted to comes to pass, we will do what we feel is the right thing to do, and we'll do our best to do it a bit better than we did this time.

First off, laws have been invented so that people couldn't do whatever the heck they want. They've been first introduced long long time ago, when the people who are now reading this and yours truly haven't even been born, as well as our parents, grand-parents and so on. But they're still around, and there are handfuls of them or probably even more. This means that not letting people do whatever they feel is right to do was a rather good idea. Just imagine what kind of madness would be happening in absence of laws!

Please don't forget, while the creators of Stack Exchange have built this network long time ago, their efforts would be worthless if there was no community to run and support it. This still holds true: most people here (I mean, millions of people) don't get paid for running the SE network, but they (actually, we) are doing the job flawlessly. Just a little reminder: listen to us, please. Meta Stack Overflow is not for politics, that's the law! The law that has been established by you, the mods, and the creators of SE, and for good reason: to prevent this very nightmare that's happening right now...

Also, the new tag you're talking about is not needed at all: if the company would like to express their ideas about politics, there's a blog and Twitter, their personal space.

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  • 5
    There is a law against a private company posting stuff about politics to their privately owned websites? Whaaaat?!? Please, show us this law. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:32
  • 17
    @AlexanderO'Mara "Law" is clearly being used to describe the site's rules.
    – resueman
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:35
  • 1
    @resueman Indeed (hence sarcasm). Thus the whole premise makes no sense (real laws protect their right to do this). The claim is still unsubstantiated too. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:36
  • 7
    No, it makes sense. He's just saying to respect the rules.
    – Developer
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 19:03
  • 3
    Well, rules as defined and interpreted by Stack Exchange were respected and followed. No harm done then I guess. Unless this alleged "no politics" "law" (emphasis in original, but actually means "rule") can be found. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 19:18
  • 10
    @AlexanderO'Mara What Force is saying is that staff established rules to protect the community. They weren't established arbitrarily; they were specifically designed (and refined) to protect the community from content that would prevent it from succeeding at its stated task: to share expert knowledge with as many people as possible. Force is saying that those "laws" succeeded, and that violating them now just because the SO staff is impassioned by an issue is bad for the site as a whole. Think of the Constitution: if the founders had "reinterpreted" it, America would never have lasted.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 1:44
23

I don't have a problem with Joel making statements on SO. He's (for all intents and purposes here) the owner. It's his platform and he can say what he wants, when he wants to. Private ownership is an important part of any society. And, yes, the base issue had some raw stupidity in there, which always complicates things (when people on the political right are against it as well you know something is out of whack).

But it broke the Shog9 rules

If y'all wanna talk about politics snip then make a [post] for the topic, welcome anyone interested who is willing to be civil, and then actually take it seriously.

  1. Make reasoned arguments.
  2. Back them up with facts.
  3. Avoid cheap shots (esp. making fun of someone's appearance or command of English).
  4. Listen at least as much as you talk.

Now, Shog9 didn't make them up, but he's a voice we all respect around here and it's bad when SO takes them and tosses them out of the window. The Joel thread pretty much broke all 4 rules. There was no reasoned argument, no facts, no way to get a word in edgewise, and pretty much no listening.

I felt unwelcome.

The root of the Trump problem (ignoring the debate on substance) is that he made this into some dire crisis that it wasn't (or it would have been done on Jan 20). As such, you had the major problems that cropped up and caused actual harm, confusion, etc. I have yet to find anyone who agrees with Trump on the substance who does not at the very least cringe at the way it was done.

The irony here is Joel made the same mistake as Trump. He jumped on the soapbox and ranted. And people turned that into a green light to rant politically. There's no reasoning with that. There's no nailing that lid back on tight enough. And to top it all off, it was pinned for all of SO to see.

So here's what I'd like to see

  1. A commitment that these things are going to be rare. An acknowledgement that posts like these are way outside the norm go a long way to helping things
  2. Write these things calmly. There's no way to read the original post as anything but a rant. The screen is a place where I censor myself. I have to, or people tune me out for ranting.
  3. Focus on the unifying part(s). The Green Card thing was a universal mess. That the Trump admin had to walk it back so quickly meant it had reached bipartisan consensus that it was bad. I think we all could have supported action focused on that one issue.
  4. Defend the other side. Admit others might not feel the same way, but tie it into #1.
  5. Joel's apology for how it was done. This will fester if he doesn't. Regardless of which side you fall on, this was done in a way that damages the credibility of SO. Only Joel can fix that. The community is forgiving (it was an impassioned issue) and it would let us move on.

Here's how I would have written Joel's post

Dear SO users,

I normally don't bring politics into this area, but I feel very strongly that what President Trump has done with his latest executive order on immigration has gone too far. While I disagree with his stance on a lot of issues, he has caused a major disruption worldwide with people coming and going to the US. This extends to SO employees, some of whom have been severely impacted either directly or indirectly by this order. As I write this, Green Card holders are being turned away at airports.

The community on Stack Overflow is made up of users from all over the world. At least 100,000 posts on Stack Overflow were written by users from the seven countries from which President Trump has banned immigration. These posts have been viewed at least 250,000,000 times. That’s a lot of people sharing their knowledge across borders.

We're looking for ways to help our employees, and indeed many others of the community, who have been negatively impacted by this. [Kasra's story would fit in here pretty nicely]

I think we can all agree this is wrong and I'm hoping we can find some common ground to help get something done to help those affected by this. This is NOT an open license to rant about politics. Please help us solve the problem only.

I might not agree with everything said, but there's no ranting and open admission that this a rarity, with a narrow scope exception made. This is something most people could get behind.

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    There's one more rule that needs to be added to Shog's list when any StackExchange moderator or employee is the author of any political posting, to wit, that the post needs to say very early, and end with, and probably reiterate several times in the middle that "This post is the (stance/opinion/policy) of (the author/this site's moderation team/StackExchange Inc.) and does not represent all our individual users".
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 22:27
  • 1
    I totally agree with you on the private ownership angle. Joel didn't do anything illegal here. The problem is, we're not really talking about that. We're talking about did Joel's actions provide or take away value to the community. Because at the end of the day the debate here isn't "does Joel privately own SO" but "was the community just improved". Everyone is here for the community, not for Joel. Beyond that minor caveat I totally agree with your post. +1. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 23:36
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TLDR:
I won't know how I feel about the new "announcement" style posts until I see them in action, and I'm conflicted about the "Stand" post. However, if you're going to ever use it for political/real world events again, can we please be more open to events outside the US?

It feels wrong that we're the only ones ever showing up in these kinds of posts/issues. If saying yes to this makes you feel there'd be too many posts, then they probably shouldn't be turned into posts in the first place, should they?


I stayed out of the discussion of the original post, partially because I felt it was not worth the effort, and partially because I personally have mixed feelings on the ban and did not feel like I could give any sort of real feedback.

Likewise, I have had mixed feelings on the post's existence. I certainly don't find it off-topic for Meta, because one of the uses for Meta as outlined in the help center is:

Stack Overflow the company to communicate with the community (soliciting feedback on new ideas or features, or discussing policies that affect the whole network)

Yet I also found it to be a huge distraction for a lot of users (myself included as I combed through the comments, answers, and the chat transcript) and a huge hang-up, which made me feel it might be best if the post was gone.

It reminds me, and I'm sure a lot of us really, of the large fallout over the rainbow logo and hover text after the supreme court's ruling on gay marriage. While I thought it was a great idea at the time, and agreed completely, I actively spoke out about repeating the experience, when another user requested the logo be changed after specific attacks, for multiple reasons besides just, but including, the fallout.

If Stack Exchange is going to continue speaking out on "very important" (at least to them, as importance is subjective) political/real world issues and events, please be more open to the world at large. If this is going to be a thing that can or will happen again, don't focus only on events in the US. I ask this as an American citizen that sees the hurt and devastation going on elsewhere in the world and wonders why no one's speaking up for those people.

If we want the world to be inclusive and open to all, we shouldn't focus solely on news from the US for this kind of thing. You might argue that this would mean far too many posts of this nature. I may agree, depending on how large of events/policies you choose to post about. But if that's the case, do these posts really belong as posts? If you feel like being inclusive to all events in the world would swamp us, regardless of how severe of events you looked at, I would argue the posts shouldn't exist at all.

If we can't speak up for our brothers and sisters in code around the world, instead of just for ourselves, I don't think we should be doing it at all. Please consider this the next time something huge happens anywhere in the world.

(As a side note, if these events really are big enough for all users in Stack Overflow to be aware of, I really think it's big enough for everyone on the network to see. It'd be better, if you must use a post on a Meta, to post to Meta Stack Exchange and feature it for everyone to see and access.)

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If political statements are going to continue to be allowed on Meta or main Stack Overflow, please give them their own tag. Please do not include them in the tag that will be used for announcements that are directly relevant to the site (e.g. updates to Documentation).

I agree that the immigration ban is an important issue. I agree that it is a harmful decision. However, it is far from the only injustice in the world.

It has been argued that this one is different because it affects a large portion of our user base, but that does not make it unique. Everything from climate change to wealth inequality affects a large portion of our user base and the world as a whole.

That does not mean we should discuss those issues here. Such discussions are against the rules because they are not the focus of this site, and because the Q&A format is not well suited to having discussions.

Yes, the future is going to be a little nuts. That is precisely why I place such a high value on having somewhere where I can learn and contribute without having to worry about the larger issues in the world for a bit.

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[...] if something really serious is going on in the real world

Define "really serious in the real world". Does it mean events that are related to:

  • your company
  • the US
  • programmers
  • minorities

It feels as if your "the real world" extends to the borders of your country or the fence of your company.

Here are a few things that I consider really serious:

Wars, stealing resources and creating refugees

1.7 trillion US $ were spent in 2015 on military expenses worldwide. This doesn't include the devastation and horrors those wars cause. Nor the cost of covert ops, and maintaining large Intelligence Agencies. Now guess who's on the top of the military expenditure list!

The strongest countries in the world are currently responsible for violent regime changes all over the globe, that are usually painted as "revolution against a very bad dictator!" by the attacking country's media. They ... "bring democracy" even to democratic countries. Oh the irony.

Millions of people die and billions suffer because the strongest countries are robbing and killing the poorest.

Nothing has changed all those years. From bacteria that killed each other 2 billion years ago, to humans in 2017 that "divide and conquer bring democracy".

And meanwhile NASA's 2015 budget was 18 billion US $ and we are playing russian roulette with asteroids.


So why didn't you make a post about:

  • all those murders and devastation?
  • increasing the odds of a nuclear war?
  • near-Earth asteroids that are not being tracked

(I can go on, but you get the point.)

I am not blaming you. Most people stick to the media that reinforces their beliefs, since it feels cozy and warm. Try reading media of other countries that are opposed to your country's policy, or media that are opposite to your beliefs. Only then can you spot the propaganda by both sides.


Also, politics is much alike religion and everyone considers his religion political views teh best!!1!. It's an extremely subjective topic and it's hard (usually impossible) to "prove" that your point of view is correct. Meaning there will be lots of arguing, lots of emotions, lots of fighting. This might have possibly alienated a portion of your community, something which you have not quantified yet, but surprisingly you have decided that:

we will do what we feel is the right thing to do

In conclusion

  • You share your point of view as the "ultimate truth" on controversial (political) matters.
  • You cherry pick important issues in the world.
  • You underestimate the consequences of your actions on your community.
  • You still believe that this can somehow be worked out, and you can repost similar topics as long as you do it "better".

This shows ignorance at best.

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    You cherry pick important issues in the world. that looks like the old "you can't talk about one evil unless you also talk about all the other evils" trope. That's really weak and a fallacy.
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 19:28
  • 1
    @Pekka웃 "looks like [...] unless you also talk about all the other evils" - You are exaggerating. It's not either "all" or "nothing". What cherry picking refers to is that there are much more important things out there.
    – user
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 19:34
  • 5
    That's certainly true - but "applies to our country and company, and affects some of our employees very negatively and is going on right now" seems like a really reasonable filter. That bullet point of yours I can't agree with at all. (#1 and #3 seemed to be the main sources of discontentment in this discussion)
    – Pekka
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 20:59
  • 8
    @Pekka웃 The "cherry-picking part" seems to refer not to the sole fact of posting "an opinion", but to the further explanations in the form "but it was important" (implying "objectively important").
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 22:47
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    Regards to bullet points #3 and #4: Upvoted, and if possible, I'd up vote 100 times-fold. It's not just the tone of the post, it's the manner (and there is a subtle but major difference). We're all just guests here - and Joel and Co. bluntly let us know it.
    – user7014451
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 5:35
  • 3
    @Pekka웃 Reading "Time to take a stand", it feels like it started with a few individuals in the company that were affected by the immigration order. If they were talking only about their company, sure. However they present it as an issue that affects everyone. This is why i included the "cherry-picking". Then again I'm not so sure this immigration order has such a huge effect on them, but anyway. As for #1 they do present their point of view in "take a stand" as an indisputable truth.
    – user
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 7:43
  • 2
    @Pekka웃 and about #3, there are at least 2 people quiting SO. But not everyone quiting is going to post about it, so those 2 people probably "represent" a non-negligible fraction of the users.
    – user
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 7:46
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Thanks for posting this, Tim. I agree with most of it - in particular, the guidelines for initiating this sort of discussion. I've spent most of the past week in chat, talking - but mostly, listening - to folks who were upset over Joel's post, and the two most common distracting elements were the lack of established relevance and lack of a call to action. While we might argue that they were implicit, having them clearly highlighted would've saved a lot of time and effort.

All that said... I think we need more of this. As I wrote recently on Meta Stack Exchange,

If y'all wanna talk about politics, good on ya - this is important stuff, and deserves to be discussed. We have an entire site dedicated to the topic, and even sites that aren't dedicated to politics can still have civil political discussions.

Like it or not, the political climate has gotten decidedly dicey over this past year, and not just in the United States of America. And it's been spilling out all over: in chat, in comments on numerous Q&A sites (including SO), and in posts on various meta sites. When you're building a house against a hill, you put in a drain outside the foundation lest the pressure of water find a way inside; the pressure of these concerns is finding its way through our foundation and threatening to ruin the carpets.

My favorite "political" discussion this past year occurred right here on meta, posted by our dear friend Pekka:

Even if we agree these kinds of jobs may have a place in the world (which I'm not at all sure about.) Should SO Careers be one of the places that runs these ads?

That post could be a template for the right way to raise these issues: it quickly established relevance, gave an even-handed treatment of contrary opinions while not mincing words when it came to the author's own take on the situation, and ended with a clear call to action.

I remember that discussion because of the conversations it sparked internally, conversations which had at best a tenuous connection to Q&A or our business, but brought forth great insights on immigration policies, ethical employment practices, and the freedom my co-workers have here to speak truth to those in power. I remember it because your answer, Tim, quickly put aside defense of our own practices and delved into both what we could do better and the cultural factors that led to these conditions in the first place. We learned stuff from each other because of that conversation; we worked past stereotypes and painful "Hacker News Capitalism" platitudes and I think the company came out of it able to see each other more clearly, to work more effectively towards our goal of improving hiring practices.

As stressful as those conversations were, both in public and in private, they were productive and I'm glad we had them. And we had them because a member of the site - not a exec or an employee - stood up and raised the issue here. If we had some "no politics" rule that had prevented it, we'd all be worse off for it.

Yesterday, I wrote this in chat after what seemed like a long, long week:

These are just stories, anecdotes, subjective opinions not data... But as humans, it is through such things that we learn to see each other as humans; data is useful in learning to question our biases, but first we must want to question them - and throughout history it is by telling each other stories that we've accomplished this.

It is my hope that, in the coming year, we all keep telling our stories, in chat and here on meta.

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    I disagree with this on multiple levels: 1. Is politics somehow more important than religion? Or somehow more important than a 3-wolf-moon-tee-shirt-that-gave-me-my-life-back-and-I-want-to-sell-you-for-$9.99? Are we now allowing religious and spam posts too? 2. The way it's set up right now this is bullying, only the political views of the oligarchy persist, any other views are censored, and that's not a discussion at all. Are you going to invent some freedom from closing tag to provide equal opportunity to speak? Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 21:30
  • 6
    Sometimes MSE is a better choice than MSO, because some issues touch all of us and not just the SO community. Pekka's post is about SO Careers so clearly belongs here, but for broader stuff, let's try to remember that there are people who are affected and interested who don't frequent MSO but do frequent the meta that's for all of SE. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 22:16
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    "It is my hope that, in the coming year, we all keep telling our stories, in chat and here on meta." - Really? I can post "questions" about how new laws in my state are raising the financial barrier to entry for basic freedoms, encouraging dangerous practices, etc.? Really? Or do you just mean Joel? Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 7:57
  • 3
    You got something you wanna talk about, @TigerhawkT3? Let's hear it. I don't see a lot of value in a meta site where only the CEO talks, nor do I see any evidence that that's what anyone wants. So talk. Whatever you say, it's gotta be more useful than all these burninate requests.
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 19:07
  • 6
    @Shog9 - I think someone did have something they wanted to talk about... and it was actually related to SO. Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 2:05
  • 1
    The guy who spammed random rooms on two chat servers and vandalized posts on four sites last night, @TigerhawkT3? Do I really have to explain how that's not... constructive?
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 2:29
  • 4
    I had no idea he did that. I thought the suspensions were part of the deletion process (which he requested). Does that post's content need to be labeled a "rant" and deleted, though? It seems kind of relevant. Is there no part of what was deleted that can be reasonably restored? Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 2:35
  • I don't know, @tiger - I didn't read it. He managed to piss off a bunch of people last night, that's why he's suspended. I'm going back to the Superbowl now.
    – Shog9
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 2:43
4

Thank you.

For doing what felt like the right thing to me. And trying to do it better the next time - if it does come. Its nice to see companies acting according to their conscience, even if a part of their userbase doesn't see it that way.

I don't know about anyone else but it moved me.

Of course, I'm also looking forward to whatever this new feature is in less.. interesting times as well.

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    Hey, thanks for voicing that. There have been very few comments, let alone answer, that take that stance, probably because we're so very afraid of the reactions of the very people we share this site with. I think it is very important that we voiced that out. Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 16:53
  • 3
    While Joel put forward a viewpoint that I agree with, and while I feel that it was the right thing to speak out against the ban, I think it's more important that the company did what it thought was right. I don't care where on the political spectrum you fall; I'll give you some respect if you do what you think is right, even if it's not done as well as it should have been.
    – HDE 226868
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 19:05
  • 2
    (It's it is.) Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 19:05
  • So, it is. erf. Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 15:17
-5

Well, you're still doing it here, taking it upon yourself to decide what's right and what's wrong. As such, I detect a tiny touch of militance in the post.

That being said, I appreciate the intent of the post and the fact that you posted it.

I also wholly support the proposed solution - a great middle ground that should keep everyone happy.

So, from me to you: ☺

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    Disagree with the action and get down voted
    – Developer
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 19:08
  • 9
    this comment has more than a touch of militancy. More like you'll take what we give you and you'll damn well like it Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 19:52
  • 3
    @Developer there are plenty of dissenting answers here that are upvoted. The downvoters are most likely disagreeing with the precise statements made in this answer.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 20:20
  • @TinyGiant likely, but likely not
    – Developer
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 20:28
  • 7
    @Developer I disagree with the action and downvoted this answer because I disagree with the precise statements made in this answer. So I'm unlikely?
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 20:29
  • 5
    It's a strange old world when someone makes a point of disagreeing with a deliberate and strained attempt to make a good-faith compromise. Says it all, really. Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 0:40
  • ^ this sums it up nicely
    – Developer
    Commented Feb 4, 2017 at 16:35
  • 5
    I dont see how it is any sort of middle ground at all. The Edit makes clear [it] has to remain our call, and it needs to be okay if we do it. It is the status quo ante with a new tag which prevents OT rants from being closed. Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 17:04
-14

The post is irrelevant to software issues or issues with the website. In accordance with this website strict rules on what is allowed and what isn't, the post should just be removed. OP can post whatever he feels on his own website if he wants. If there was a policy that was made saying, "SO users from these countries cannot post" then that would be fine. Obviously there were emotions involved and any other user who posted something like that (either pro or con) would be removed with no question.

Also in regards to some of the comments in the OP, ignoring it is not a solution. Everyone can choose to ignore spam posts but that doesn't make them right. Like others said, you're just avoiding the problem.

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    You know, SO is OPs own website, as the OP of the original post was the CEO of Stack Exchange. So the premise on which your argument is based is already false.
    – Magisch
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 13:04
  • 2
    You know, to call SO his own website would be very inconsiderate. It is the joint effort of the countless users who contributed who make up and own SO. Saying that it's his own website and he can do whatever he wants would disregard everyone else. It was great that he had the idea to create the website, but it is user driven.
    – Developer
    Commented Feb 6, 2017 at 13:58
  • Baffling why this is downvoted so much. For upholding the policies (laws) of this very site. (But then... :D ...Trump's policy is exactly within the inevitable, unavoidable, unambiguous wording of the U.S. statute (law), so I suppose I should not be surprised.) The real question is whether we want to change the laws of this site.
    – Wildcard
    Commented Feb 22, 2017 at 22:01
  • It is unfortunate indeed, especially when they stay silent.
    – Developer
    Commented Mar 2, 2017 at 17:10
-16

Backing down from an important statement merely because people are mad is not justified.

Many important things are worth saying. If you believe that this is a horrible pre-fascist act, state it. Backing down from it is excusing it.

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    @mason This is an answer to the OP. Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 5:36
  • 1
    @DavidG please note that post was rather heavily edited from original version which seems to be addressed by mason's comment
    – gnat
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 7:06
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    @gnat I guess I'm just hyper sensitive lately with all of the overly dramatic stuff going on here!
    – DavidG
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 11:41
  • @DavidG yes my comment was directed at the answer as it originally stood. I still disagree with this answer but it's at least relevant to the discussion now.
    – mason
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 14:21
  • 1
    @mason it simply states the same thing, without facts backing it up. And facts are a matter of politics in a world with alternative facts. Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 14:40
  • No, it does not say the same thing. Your original post can be summarized as "this is important we should take a stand" and your new post says "don't be afraid to back down from a statement you made". There's a fundamental difference there.
    – mason
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 14:42
  • 2
    @mason The current one says "if it is important as you claim, backing down is immoral". The first one asserted it was important with facts. As noted, facts vs alternative facts are now in the realm of politics. Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 15:14
  • 2
    I liked the original version better, with the possible exception of its very last line.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 5, 2017 at 15:26
-24

Thanks! I really value that Stack Exchange is looking out for the people involved.

I'm happy y'all are thinking about exactly the best way to take stands and so on, but the bottom line is, I'm glad to know y'all have our backs, even in a case like this where the obviously targeted group is in many ways a minority.

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    "I'm glad to know y'all have our backs, no matter which portion of us needs that support." So long as it is a US policy decision that the CEO disagrees with. I don't see Joel standing up for those affected by the Great Firewall Of China.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:04
  • 3
    @TinyGiant I'm all for avoiding being too US-centric, and I'm not claiming that they've picked exactly the right set of things to speak up on. So I'm simply saying, this was a good time for it, and I support it, and I'd also support them doing something similar in other situations. (And although it's a US policy, it's something that significantly affects people from elsewhere.)
    – Cascabel
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:08
  • 8
    You said "I'm glad to know y'all have our backs, no matter which portion of us needs that support", and that statement is factually incorrect. They will only have the backs of those affected by US policy decisions that the CEO disagrees with. It is possible that this may change in the future, but at this point it is not what you say it is.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:11
  • 2
    Well, then please forgive me for being optimistic about the future given this step and Tim's followup.
    – Cascabel
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:12
  • You can be optimistic without making factually incorrect statements.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:23
  • Okay, I've edited to avoid the contentious statement but preserve the point that they did indeed stick up for a minority here (in contrast to sticking up for the whole internet or some such).
    – Cascabel
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 18:46
  • 4
    The statement is still false. There is nothing to suggest that the team inherently has anyone's backs but their own. In this case they "had the backs" of those who would attempt to immigrate to the United States but found themselves unable to due to the ban. There is nothing to suggest that they would or would not stand up for anyone else in particular in the future.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 19:47
  • As you said, they were concerned about all of these potential immigrants (and also non-immigrant visa holders, and also the general principle of the US being hostile to people from other countries on this kind of basis). That's definitely not just them looking out for themselves. So yeah, I think my statement is pretty fair. If you're cynical enough to think that they only care about some limited subset of those people and won't ever care about anyone else, then... yes, I guess you've reached the "logical" conclusion. But that's a pretty big reach.
    – Cascabel
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 22:55
  • Read my comment again. I said "There is nothing to suggest that the team inherently has anyone's backs but their own". This means that there is no evidence that they would or would not stand up for any given person or group of people. I then said "In this case they "had the backs" of those who...". This means that this time they did "have the backs" of those who were affected, but this does not in any way prove that they would or would not "have the backs" of any given person or group of people.
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 23:12
  • 1
    ...sure, but I'm not thanking them for reliably having everyone's backs in every possible circumstance, I'm thanking them for showing an example like this where they did, and noting that it was for an oppressed minority, not just some whole-internet thing like SOPA/PIPA.
    – Cascabel
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 23:15
  • 3
    The factually correct version of "I'm glad to know y'all have our backs" would be "I'm glad to know y'all had our backs in this case"
    – user4639281
    Commented Feb 3, 2017 at 23:16
  • I'm struggling to understand why this answer has so many downvotes.
    – Rafael
    Commented Sep 24, 2019 at 14:14
  • @Rafael People were very angry at the time. The prevailing notion, seen also in the top answers here, is that politics should be kept out of sight, that the right place to acknowledge it is... somewhere other than here. This of course becomes a bit difficult when people's lives and existence are deemed political issues.
    – Cascabel
    Commented Sep 24, 2019 at 16:20
  • 1
    What I find more amusing actually is people failing to realize how much politics are inside many many science fiction movies, cartoons, comic books... but when it comes to a certain community, just: NO. It's like people watched Star Wars only for the lasers.
    – Rafael
    Commented Sep 26, 2019 at 9:02

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