80
votes

Update: Many thanks to those who volunteered; we'll be in touch by email in the next week or so. We had far more volunteers than mentor spots available, but your generosity and interest are appreciated; we hope to create more opportunities to mentor in the future.


We're excited about participating in a new fellowship at the Flatiron School, an intensive full-time programming school in New York City, where Stack Exchange's headquarters are. Our friends at Fog Creek worked with the Flatiron school recently to create the Fog Creek Fellowship, in which Fog Creek will host and mentor a group of women who just graduated from Flatiron. We're thrilled to be joining that program, extending the group of student mentees to 16.

And then it occurred to us: we have a community full of people who love helping other people. So, in addition to matching them with our developers, we’d like to match each one of them with a developer from our community.

We're looking for 16 online mentors to pair with the 16 Flatiron women in the program.

Anyone is welcome to apply, but since all but one of the mentees already have (in-person) male mentors from the Stack Exchange and Fog Creek dev teams, preference will be given to female mentors for this round.

Here’s how this will work:

  1. You should be a full-time professional developer, with at least a couple of years of experience under your belt
  2. Since we’d like each female developer to have a chance to speak with a female developer and there's currently only one female mentor (and 15 male mentors) preference will be given to women
  3. You should be available to do a video call (probably via Google Hangouts) once per week between September 15 and October 25 (6 weeks)
  4. You should be available to answer occasional questions via email after the mentorship ends

In-person mentoring has already begun, and we're planning to launch online mentoring on September 15. We think it will be beneficial for these women to have someone they can talk to once they leave our office, and who better than our Stack Overflow users?

If you're interested in being a mentor in this online component of our Flatiron fellowship, let us know by filling out this form.

If you have any questions, feel free to post them as an answer here, and we'll respond in the comments. We'll follow up in the next week or two with everyone who applied to let you know whether or not we've matched you with a Flatiron graduate.

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    Much as I hate to do so, I'm purging the comments here as well - the conversations within had become entirely too hard to follow, and a distraction for those who might wish to read or respond to the answers below. Big thanks to everyone for sharing their thoughts - if you feel something topical is left unsaid, please post an answer below and flesh it out a bit. Figure on this thread being locked for posterity at the end of the week.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 22:42

24 Answers 24

152
votes

If the partner were a legitimate, non-profit educational institution? Sure.

But volunteer to help the success rate of a $12,000 12-week for-profit bootcamp? No. If they want help looking better, they need to share the money.

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    I find your view to be a bit overly cynical here. We're looking at this as helping the people who go through these programs rather than helping the programs. Having said that, this is just a pilot project. If/when it succeeds, we'll be applying lessons learned here to other initiatives. Do you have any particular institutions in mind that we should partner with in the future?
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 22:59
  • 19
    This is an interesting perspective. One way in which FlatIron could respond is to donate a percentage of their fee for women on this course to a women-in-tech group. Volunteers will still be volunteering, but there will be a good social outcome for their work (quite aside from the positive effects of mentoring, obviously).
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 23:58
  • 50
    I was going to comment on this same thing. Its like they are using this new fashion of women in tech to get some free mentorship for their members, who have already paid a pretty penny. Next thing, they will start advertising "Free mentorship with StackOverflow members" as part of their package. If they were to donate funds towards education or a charity, it would be more appealing - at least to me. Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 8:24
  • 23
    @AnnaLear: It's just a little strange to do free mentoring when the people who are mentored have to pay lots of money for it to a third party.
    – sth
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 15:59
  • 26
    I don't recall the exact numbers, but I believe my entire Bachelor of Science in Computer Science (3 year equivalent spread over 8+ years, long distance, government subsidized) cost less than this 12 week course... You have to wonder if these type of initiatives aren't simply gouging money from people instead of really helping the cause. Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 16:07
  • 10
    @AnnaLear If you're looking at this as just "helping the people", what do you need this company for? I'm sure it would be easy to gather volunteers to benefit from free teaching, even easier than gathering volunteering mentors.
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 16:07
  • 11
    @Wooble: People don't have to pay to ask questions on SO.
    – sth
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 16:59
  • 21
    I thought this was a great idea, until I read this answer. Mentoring people is great, but making our mentoring a "bonus" for a paid course/class doesn't sound right.
    – Seth
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 18:19
  • 12
    We're donating time, space, knowledge, and some free lunches to young people, not a school here. It's easy to look at any place someone tries to do good, and argue there are better causes. It's even easy to be right. But whoever you choose to help, there's always someone even worse off. Many of you may have chosen what you think are better causes to contribute to, and you may be right. I'm pretty sure we doing at least some small good here. And I'm glad some think their causes are better, as it probably means they're working hard for them too. No one has to win this one.
    – Jaydles Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 19:01
  • 10
    FWIW, if you're familiar with (as in, know folks associated with) a non-profit mentoring organization that could use support like this, please get in touch - just use the "contact us" link at the bottom of any page here. We're taking advantage of this opportunity because it is available; that doesn't preclude helping others in the future if we can make it work.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 19:11
  • 6
    Hmm... There's a point here. the Flatiron School is an un-free class. It's not a question of malice (or even cynicism). I am a huge fan of mentoring (and training, in general). In fact, I'll be attending the iOS8 and Swift Roadshow Classes Here. Not-free, by a large margin (BTW: I pay for these out of my own pocket). I understand women feeling more comfortable with women, but you may have done better data mining SO, and contacting candidates directly. This post has turned into a bit of a circus. Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 19:38
  • 19
    This answer reversed my previously held opinion on the subject. Conceptually I am still supportive, but in terms of execution, I am not comfortable donating my time to a for-profit. They might call me a volunteer, but in reality, I'm just free labor. It isn't volunteering when the product of your effort is to be sold. Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 19:51
  • 6
    @shog9: You really think so? I'm not sure that we're actually testing a new idea here. SO is part of SE, and has a great network. Since Flatiron is not-free, this has the potential to be a significant branding exercise for them, and should be treated that way. Brand protection usually shies away from having your brand associated with a wild social media flame-out. They could work with SO, even if they have to fork over some dosh, and maybe work in a more controlled manner (ala NPD). If these folks aren't Flatiron, then they shouldn't even mention that name in this thread. Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 19:51
  • 10
    I think it's presumptuous to think of this pilot program of 16 people as somehow free services for Flatiron. The services are for the 16 graduates of Flatiron that happened to be chosen. It remains to be seen whether the pilot will succeed or continue into the future, so it would be ridiculous at this stage for Flatiron to claim that they have "partnered" with the Stack Overflow community. For that matter, people at lots of for-profit organizations derive real benefit from Stack Overflow itself every single day. Should we all get paid from all of them too?
    – John Y
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 21:24
  • 7
    OK, so I slept over this and now I think this answer is flawed. This program is for women who have already graduated. If you think we're doing a favor to the school they graduated from, then you must also think that someone could have gone to a school for 12 weeks and be a professional programmer afterwards. To put it mildly, I find this idea hilarious. I don't know about you, but, having been a C++ programmer for 20 years, I still learn something new every week -- and I certainly benefit from the mentoring of others (e.g., here).
    – sbi
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 6:15
72
votes

Just my 2 cents.

I encourage women to take an interest in technology. However, I realize I cannot force anybody to like something that they simply don't like (anybody, man or woman).

I don't think this should be limited to females mentoring females, however. I understand that it could give the mentee a perspective on what it's like, but that shouldn't be the emphasis.

The emphasis should be learning technology! Internet Explorer does not care if you are a man, a woman, or a Cylon. It hates you regardless. Just remember that.

[Obligatory edit: The IE crack was a joke]

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  • 2
    Mentee is already the proper word Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:40
  • 75
    Speaking on behalf of the IE team, we don't hate you :)
    – Sampson
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:42
  • 2
    Ah, chrome had a red line under it so I thought I was wrong lol Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:42
  • @JonathanSampson if you really loved me you'd make the IE dev tools version rollback an actual rolled back version D: Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:43
  • 17
    @SterlingArcher Not sure I follow, but you've got my full attention. Ping me on twitter and let's jump into a Hangout.
    – Sampson
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:44
  • 33
    @JonathanSampson you're like, my favorite person in this entire thread right now. Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:46
  • 14
    @JonathanSampson I'm sure I speak for us all at the JS room when I saw I'm impressed with the response. Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:46
  • IE just hates, that should be the slogon!
    – Sammaye
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:47
  • 3
    @Benjamin Gruenbaum: Impressed? I find it pretty creepy. "you've got my full attention"? Inviting a stranger to a Hangout? shudder
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:03
  • @JonathanSampson true IE would be massive but how else can we program for the old IE versions truly :(?
    – Sammaye
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:05
  • 7
    @Sammaye We try to help out as much as possible; we pushed out a lot of version updates via Windows Update to try and bring more people to a modern version of IE. We also make VMs available for free, and pay out of pocket for three months of access to BrowserStack.com if you visit modern.ie. We're exploring other ways to eradicate the fragmentation issue, and make testing easier in the meantime.
    – Sampson
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:13
  • 18
    @JonathanSampson I cannot believe I am saying this, but you just made me respect IE. I applaud you.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:16
  • 2
    @JonathanSampson ok the subscription kinda got me, your forgiven but your ancestors are not still :P
    – Sammaye
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:19
  • 4
    IE doesn't hate you. It just ignore you and concentrate on its favourite activities: hanging, crashing and overloading the system, from time to time allowing reverse internet browsing. Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 12:02
  • 5
    Can't believe this is currently the top 'answer'. This is about mentoring which is a lot more than just "learning technology".
    – mb21
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 13:50
64
votes

In response to all of the hand-wringing about the choice of Flatiron for this project... This is just the start.

There's clearly a need for more mentorship - indeed, better education - for programmers across the board. The situation for women may be especially dire, hence the existence of organizations like Flatiron, but many, many beginning programmers could benefit from such a thing.

My colleague Jon Ericson kicked off a separate discussion about this recently:

These are not bad programmers; they are unskilled at debugging and/or don't understand the expectations we have for questions.

It's trivially easy to learn to program, much harder to develop the sorts of skills needed to take on a productive role as a developer. If you're interested in seeing Stack Overflow play a larger role in this sort of education and outreach, please chime in there with your ideas. Stack Overflow is uniquely positioned to provide those entering our industry with a path to learning - the information available here is already worlds better than what was out there when I was learning, and I suspect a fair number of the kids finding the site nowdays see it as an integral part of their continuing education. If there's a way you think we can facilitate this sort of thing more effectively on a broad scale, let's hear it...

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    There's a space that Stack Exchange isn't filling; currently the 1 on 1 "I have no idea what I'm doing yet I have this problem to solve" space. Judging from the rather broad questions we get as a result of this, I'd say that this is a great place for SE to figure out a way to jump into.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:28
  • 21
    I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Shog for president!
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:29
  • Perhaps, in the light of the controversy the comments on the original post have sparked, it would be a good idea to start up a mentoring-specific site for this. If we had a place where anybody who was looking to learn to program could go if they didn't have a specific problem that they couldn't get around, I think it would also get rid of some of the "problems" that some users think that SO has run into recently such as "a feeling of negativity". Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:31
  • 5
    Well, sites like Codementor exist, I'm there for fun and some extra cash on the side. I can tell you this. Mentoring is taxing. It's a lot of fun, but it's often sitting in a video call for over 2 hours trying to explain something to someone. I think that it's great if Stack Exchange set up a full-fledged mentoring program, but careful strategic thinking must be applied here. Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:31
  • 3
    Are you referring to comments from elsewhere? I don't see any comments here about Flatiron specifically, unless you're referring to the mentees themselves?
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:31
  • Not gonna call anyone out in particular, @BoltClock - I don't think that really leads to anything constructive in a discussion like this. Scan through the comments on the question above & you'll see what I'm talking about (most of them don't explicitly mention Flatiron's program, but refer to its target demographic).
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:38
  • That makes sense.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:42
  • 3
    @Shog9: I don't think that has to do with Flatiron as much as it has to do with ignorance about societal issues. (For what little it's worth from someone with no skin in the game, I think your effort is noble but I have...misgivings about the choice of Flatiron instead of partnering with a university or something. Flatiron does not seem to aim to prepare its students with the same depth of understanding that a traditional university curriculum in, say, mathematics or physics would.)
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:53
  • 1
    @tmyklebu Baby steps. :)
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:53
  • 2
    @tmyklebu Not that I know of at this point. We are trying this thing on a small scale to see how it might work before we go beyond. We have contacts at Flatiron, they have relatively small class sizes, so this is a decent pilot.
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:57
  • 2
    "Flatiron" Thought you said Flareon. Got excited. Dismayed. Shog how could you get my PokeHopes up like that.. Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:08
  • 1
    @SterlingArcher You just got 20% cooler, between that comment and your answer below. (Oh God, I can't believe I just made that reference unintentionally...)
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:13
  • 7
    @Kendra: i.sstatic.net/t8V0J.png
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:24
  • 1
    I looked quickly at the Flatiron page. Is this a non-profit school? How old are the students? I assumed from reading this page that it would be High School or Undergraduate students but after looking at the page I'm not sure.
    – k-den
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 16:20
  • 1
    @k-den It's not a non-profit. They are a for-profit company, with some outside investment. I don't have exact numbers on the age, but the target audience is people making transitions from other careers to programming, or who realized they need some programming skills in their current profession; most students are in their 20s and 30s.
    – Laura Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 17:03
59
votes

I feel the need to precede my answer by this:

Creating equal opportunities is not about treating everybody exactly the same. It is about treating everybody so that they have the same chance of achieving something. (For example, as a father of many children I feel that I must treat each of my children very differently in order to give them all the same chance.)

I'm all for this. I think this is the best "question" I have seen on meta for a very long time, and, as others, I am very embarrassed about the dumb comments that a rather vocal male minority let off here.

As someone who has, for two decades and besides actually writing code for a living, taught programming to apprentices, college students, trainees, programming newbies, and seasoned programmers, men and women, (and, I almost forgot, used to be married to and has a bunch of kids with a female programmer) I find this a very good idea. In my experience, female programmers are underrepresented, looked down at, and shied away. They thus need encouragement in order to really become equals.

When I taught programming at a college, about 25% of my students were female, but among the top students I used to have, 50% were women. In many years with trainees, I only ever had two women, but nevertheless one of the smartest programmers I have ever worked with is a female trainee. (Lacking experience, of course, but not wits.) Yet, at my current job we found it nigh impossible to hire female programmers, even though we specifically searched for them. That's because there are so few. So I feel like there's a great potential to be tapped into by encouraging women to learn how to program and I think it's great that you set out to do just that.

I would even apply to be a mentor. In my experience, few programmers have as little time as I have (I have more kids to take care of than the common programmer has had girlfriends, a demanding job, a household to run by my own and whatnot), but I think an hour a week and a few e-mails per week I can handle. But:

  • I only teach C++.
  • I live in a European timezone.
  • I'm a grumpy old man.

That seems to be as far from the target audience you're looking for as one can be. However, if you're interested in me, drop me a comment here saying so, and then I'll apply. Otherwise consider me standing at the side applauding.

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    "I'm a grumpy old man." - you can't be that grumpy if you have 101k rep.
    – hichris123
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 22:15
  • 19
    @hichris: 1) I stopped contributing answers around the end of 2010, I think. By then I had about 20k. The other 80k are earned from the work I've done up to then. :-/. 2) In the C++ chatroom I'm known as The Grumpy Old Man. Since, as we all know, the C++ chatroom is the best of the whole SE network, and everything said by its regular residents is more or less divine, this must be true. 3) I feel old and sometimes I am grumpy enough to seriously intimidate newbies.
    – sbi
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 22:22
  • 1
    I can't say I've ever seen you be grumpy. :) Maybe I need to lurk more in the C++ Lounge. With that said, I wish more people could look past themselves and empathize with others who don't fit their own demographics. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 5:53
  • 1
    You presume that everyone voicing an opinion here is male. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 8:31
  • @seven Since some had openly said that they are women, I didn't do that.
    – sbi
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 8:33
  • @sbi then why are you talking about 'dumb comments by the vocal male minority'? Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 8:36
  • @seven Because a rather vocal minority made comments which I consider dumb?
    – sbi
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 8:37
  • and you're still presuming they're all male... Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 8:38
  • 3
    @seven Have you considered getting your logic module checked?
    – sbi
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 8:40
  • @seven: Don't waste time getting the logic module checked, just discard it. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 10:23
  • 1
    You look a bit grumpy on your profile photo ;) Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 12:08
  • @Donau It wasn't one of my brightest days when this pic was shot. Here's a much better one.
    – sbi
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 12:39
37
votes

In the absence of any specific question to be answered, let me post a longer answer about why we should support this as a community. Gender discrimination in tech has been raised as a topic a couple of times on Meta recently, and on each occasion — rather than just attracting either warm support and a dose of indifference — a proportion of the reply has been strong and disgruntled opposition.

But why would this be? It seems that any initiative to make technical roles available and welcoming to women on the same terms as men ought to be universally welcomed. I think it stems at least in part from a misunderstanding of the approaches that are normally used by anti-discrimination movements, and I hope that at least some of that opposition can be overcome by explaining them.

So, one of the tools to challenge centuries-old discrimination is to develop initiatives exclusively for groups of people who have experienced discrimination, and/or use their legally-protected characteristics as a small booster to their chances of a job, access to limited educational places, and so forth. The programme under discussion here would fall under the first category, and a university that gives a few percentage points towards entrance criteria to under-represented minorities would fall under the second (I'd be minded to refer to the second category as positive discrimination or affirmative action, though some people would use these phrases for both corrective mechanisms).

Do such approaches work? I'm not sure, but I'm certainly willing to give it a go. I'm male, middle class and white, so I'm in possession of substantial privilege that, whatever hard work I might have put in, I simply did not earn myself. Whatever discriminatory societal memes have survived through the last few centuries, via whatever manner they have propagated intergenerationally, I think any of us in possession of any such advantages should be willing to help level out this playing field, even if we each can only tamp down a small clod of earth.

In the same way — and this is more rhetorical than requiring answers — anyone strongly opposing such programmes should make an effort to understand their own motives for doing so. I agree this isn't easy, and that it requires substantial introspection — no-one likes the idea that we might be influenced by our culture and upbringing to the degree that we are, even if that is what makes us human!

In particular, the opinion that women-only spaces/groups/mentoring in which women can feel empowered is "sexist" does not understand that men feel empowered, by default, everywhere (how our collective culture got to such a daft position is rather not the point, and neither is it relevant that not all men contribute to the meme's survival). Furthermore, there is no demonstrable need for men-only spaces/groups/mentoring; such a thing would only serve to increase a privilege that already exists, and would probably only ever be set up as a reactionary response anyway.

I was asked on another thread, in relation to my support for anti-discrimination measures, where we should stop. I certainly agree that, if discrimination in the future becomes negligible, or that people start to be affected by it entirely randomly (!), then such measures will no longer be needed. In the meantime, the aim is to:

create equality of opportunity, and not necessarily equality of outcome.

So, there is no movement to demand that technical departments are made up of equal proportions of each legally-protected characteristic. However, if we can get to the point where women feel that technology is a suitable career (or amateur interest) for them to the same degree that men are automatically entitled to, that would be a real win. We are, I believe, some way off.

No approach to tackling such a thorny problem will ever be perfect. Not all people of non-privileged groups have been discriminated against to the same degree, and not everyone requires a programme or anti-discrimination policy to experience equality in their particular field. Some people, indeed, will use the experience of discrimination to put double the effort in, even though they should not have to do so.

Nevertheless, assuming we all understand that discrimination still exists, let's get behind initiatives like this. And let's do so especially if we haven't experienced it, to give a hand up to those who have.


Post-script: a commenter suggests that small corrective measures that deliberately privilege women are an attack on men. This counter-argument is tackled by my above critique of accusations, originating from men, that they are the victims of a modern sexism. Whilst understandable from the speaker's perspective, this outlook is wrong because it does not take into account the (much larger) privilege imbalance in the first place.

I should say that I do not intend to render all (tech) feminism as beyond criticism, and nor is it a supportable feminist view that men cannot be victims of sexism. I spotted a rather unfortunate example here just now:

The gittip crisis is an example of the way in which men in tech only support meritocracy when it favors themselves.

Ouch! Hopefully my post, and the views of many other men who have commented under the original post, show that statement to be false.

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  • 7
    Purging comments here. If you have a philosophical disagreement with this answer, please consider posting your own answer addressing the point in the context of this program. Note that this is not an appropriate venue for broad discussions on societal issues, so please do try to stay at least tangentially on-topic.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 18:55
33
votes

Is there a preference for people who participate on Stack Overflow? I have a couple of female friends in mind who work in the field but don't use the site; is it all right if I share this with them?

(Probably a long shot since I don't think they're big on mentoring, but others might have the same question.)

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  • 1
    I would think that there is a preference (but not necessarily a requirement), since this was posted in meta after all, and not a blog post
    – Lamak
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 19:56
  • 14
    That's fine. Who knows, maybe they'll become SO users after. :)
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:03
  • 2
    @Anna Lear: Thanks. Yeah actually... I've been trying to get them on board for a while. They're not concerned with gender issues so much as not having any questions that would fit the site quite yet though, as are most of my developer friends for that matter :P
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:07
  • 1
    @BoltClock I would assume that, if your friends have anything approaching your knowledgebase, SO would benefit from their participation by simply answering questions. I'd throw in on some cupcakes if bribery helps...
    – Tieson T.
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 5:38
  • 1
    @Tieson T.: You're right. Everyone loves cupcakes. (You're right - they can always answer instead of asking.)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 5:39
  • 2
    @AnnaLear Oh; now the real purpose behind this is revealed! ;)
    – Andrew Barber Mod
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 13:10
21
votes

Since you included a request for comments/questions as answers, I will bite.

I am in support of helping people/tutoring them (as I'm also starting out in the field, I still need help on a regular basis), and of getting a wider variety of people into tech and coding, but along the lines of the myriad comments above, where is the initiative to pair with males starting a career in programming?

I want to be clear that I am not disapproving of the effort here whatsoever, only inquiring about future efforts that are also more gender-inclusive. Are there plans for any?

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  • 14
    Yes. We're starting with this particular issue because a) we think it's important, but also because b) we were lucky enough to be approached by some people who laid the groundwork for this program. Fog Creek and the Flatiron school put the in-person part of this together, and we thought it was a great way for us to do something. We're treating it as a pilot program, though: we expect to learn a lot about what we can do better, and how we can take this concept and scale it. This is not the end of our efforts or our only focus, but it is a really nice concrete place for us to start.
    – Laura Staff
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:01
  • 3
    We want to expand to other initiatives / programs that are not just gender-inclusive, but look at other types of diversity as well. We want to take an iterative approach, though, since we don't claim to be experts...we want to learn as much as we can as we go so that the experience is great for everyone involved.
    – Laura Staff
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:02
  • 5
    You seem to be missing the point that this IS gender inclusive, since the vast majority of the industry is biased to excluding women.
    – psoshmo
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:04
  • 10
    @psoshmo No; if you look at this initiative by itself, it is "get women into programming", and goes further by giving first dibs on mentoring to women. This is, by definition, gender-exclusive (men cannot have any part in this as mentees, and likely not as mentors, depending on how many women are interested). While we may need more women in this industry, such a need doesn't reclassify this as something it's not. But let's not allow such a digression to hijack the answer or associated comments, please :-)
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:55
  • @Laura Thanks for the insight. I think that background information of SO being approached by Flatiron/Fog Creek would be a good addition to the main post above.
    – TylerH
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:57
  • 3
    @psoshmo: Very little is advanced by trying to redefine "gender-inclusive" to mean something it doesn't. It's not inclusive and that's OK.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:15
  • 2
    @TylerH - How do you open the doors for more women to learn about programming if you don't limit your program to just women? What you end up with is the same old thing, which clearly doesn't include more women in tech. Also, Laura mentioned almost all of the mentors they have now are men. Clearly men aren't being kept out; otherwise, the existing mentors wouldn't be almost exclusively male. I think men just need to take a deep breath, be thankful for where we are, and recognize that not every program geared towards increased diversity is meant as a personal attack. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 6:12
  • @tmyklebu I think of it as gender inclusive into the industry as a whole. You're right, this is okay to create small, exclusive programs, so long as those programs work towards making the broader industry more inclusive. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 6:16
18
votes

I wish I'd had something like this when I entered the professional programming world after graduation.

As a woman in IT, I've seen plenty of sides of being shut out. I started out as a networker, and it's what I graduated college for. Through college, I worked in the school's NOC and did my internship there. I was the first female student they'd taken on through the school's work program. While I got plenty of experience there, my boss started the discussion about my taking the job with "Some of the men around here may give you a hard time. If they do, you just let me know and I'll handle it."

He didn't mean my three coworkers. He meant other faculty around the school. My coworkers, most of them, didn't care if I was a girl, if I could do the work then they expected me to do it. If I didn't know how, they expected me to learn it. It wasn't until my second year (this was a two year tech school) that I hit on any kind of issues. The other student worker from the year before had graduated. They took on one of my classmates as the other student worker.

We were two of four students in our class that quite easily understood the curriculum. The four of us never really had issues in the classes. We even helped teach the other students at times. That was great- The only problem? I was the sole girl of that group of four, and I was pretty well shunned most of the time for being a smart young woman in an IT field. This showed itself more so when the one boy became my coworker and constantly mocked me or told me I was doing things wrong, when I had been doing them correctly before he'd started. He made me dread going to work everyday, but I had to do it anyway.

Sadly, this was not my only experience with this (I'm even leaving out a couple times I've been discriminated against in IT by other women), but it's one of the best I've got from more recent years. (I've got worse if I delve back into high school, but I'd much rather not.) Yes, these experiences are from networking, but networking is still IT work (even if it is the dark side) and I've seen women treated the same way in programming.

I find this mentoring program is a great idea. I find it even better that they do intend to move on to more and bigger groups and not soley focused on females. I hope that these programs that SE helps with will help future programmers, male and female, young and old, of all races and origins, to further develop their skills and make the workforce a more developed and highly skilled place.

17
votes

Are there any stipulations for when we need to be available for the weekly video calls? I kind of assume this is flexible, but I just wanted to make sure before applying :)

Also, a small note to anyone looking for tutoring regardless of genitalia: Us folks in the HTML/CSS/Web Design room are always available to help people actively interested in learning about anything on topic for the room.

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  • 3
    It's very flexible; if you're selected, you and your mentee can choose whatever schedule works for the two of you. (The mentees are all in New York City, as a point of reference, but even the hours that they're in the office working on their projects varies, so we're not prescribing strict windows for the online mentoring sessions. We know you all have lots going on, too!)
    – Laura Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 14:40
16
votes

Love the idea. Quick suggestion I have to add to it. I noticed a few people in the comments mentioned they would love to be a part of this but just plain don't have the time to devote. If you aren't able to get enough mentors would you be open to the possibility of maybe a few professionals sharing the responsibility/splitting the workload?

5
  • 5
    If this was a thing, I would totally bite. Great question, Zane.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 19:58
  • 2
    I'd like this because you know... life is just too busy lately.
    – Taryn Mod
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 19:59
  • 5
    This is probably not something we'd do right now just because this our first go, and we'd to like to keep it as a simple as possible. This could be a future modification though. :)
    – Ana Staff
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:05
  • Too bad, I wouldn't mind but with work and my 3 children (oldest nearing 4 years old) take a lot of time to "handle". Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:13
  • 1
    I know you said it wouldn't be this time around, but just in case... +1 for having this option. I would do it also.
    – mayabelle
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:43
16
votes

This post went on Stack Overflow because we wanted to give Stack Overflow community members the opportunity to give back in a different way.

If that's not interesting to you, that's okay. Similarly, we're not all going to agree on issues of gender in technology. And that's fine.

My employer, Stack Exchange, cares a great deal about having a positive impact on the technology community. We came to the conclusion that this is a big enough issue that we should address it. This is our first attempt to do so.

We are not looking to force our views on anyone else. We are providing an opportunity for folks to contribute to this cause, if they'd like to. That's your call.

The only sticking point is that Stack Overflow needs to continue being a part of the internet where humans are treated with respect regardless of their race, or gender, or any other demographic details.

The rest is a matter of individual beliefs.

15
votes

I just left a job at a Fortune 50 US company with a mentoring program. Being able to get female mentors in that program was extremely difficult, male mentors, pretty darn easy. Male senior programmers available in this company of thousands? There were hundreds. Female senior programmers? There were about 3. And the female mentors that were available, were often being pulled in many different directions because of the high demand on their time.

Mentoring is, in part, supposed to help overcome the tendency that people have to naturally want to help people just like them. At a different previous job, I had one colleague who was so heavily mentored by his boss that they'd hang out together outside of work, and even go on hunting trips together. A female worker cannot go on a trip alone with an older male boss without it being seen as inappropriate. There are so few women in tech, they need help to find these sorts of relationships. Men are spoiled by the abundance of choices in this case, women are lucky to find any other technical women to mentor them, much less those that they actually "click" with.

I am also disappointed by some of the responses here. There is a lot of empirical evidence that women get culturally pushed out of technical fields. On the ACM mailing lists I subscribe to I see a trickle of stories every month or so describing how women fail to advance in STEM careers.

1
  • 5
    "A female worker cannot go on a trip alone with an older male boss without it being seen as inappropriate" <- yes, spot on. Not only that, but it is difficult to share interests outside of work/programming.
    – cimmanon
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 17:39
15
votes

We must use time creatively, in the knowledge that the time is always ripe to do right.
—Martin Luther King Jr., "Letter from a Birmingham Jail"

Even though I work for Stack Exchange, I've have very little insight into this program other than what's written in the question. I don't happen to know anything about the program itself. But I know the goal: help train people who'd like to enter the field of programming. When I think of the goal, I can think of no more appropriate way to extend the mission of Stack Overflow into the offline world. There is a basic rightness to it.

All of my professional career, going back to my first internship, I've had female colleagues. My last job had parity in terms of male and female developers. In my experience, men are no more likely to be great programmers than women. So I was genuinely surprised to learn that in the US, roughly 20% of working programmers are female. In the span of my career, the ratio of women to men in computer science degree programs has dropped from about 27% to 12%, so the proportions are going to be even more lopsided in a few years.

When I think of my daughter and realize she might very well take after me, the trend concerns me. I want her to live in an egalitarian society that values her talents and dedication to excellence. I don't want her to spend a career as an oddity and an outsider. And so, I'm convinced that mentoring women who want to learn programming is the right thing to do. (That remains true even if my daughter becomes a musician or, one can dream, a WNBA star.)

In addition, Stack Overflow users (even those, like me, who don't participate) stand to benefit from a successful mentoring program. For one thing, there's a chance we can get a few more interesting questions. And for another, a successful program on a small scale might open up the possibility for a broader version. Finally, the people learning to program today may very well be colleagues tomorrow.

So I, for one, wish our mentors and mentees the best of luck.

Which brings me to my suggestion: I'd be interested in reading reports of the experience from any of the participants willing to share.


To address the comments:

nothing wrong with mentoring people. The gripe I and others have with it is the sexist and discriminatory nature of the program, excluding men completely for the sake of being "inclusive" (and thus ending up being anything but).—jwenting

There is a long-standing tradition in the United States of offering scholarships to students who have particular characteristics. For instance, there is a scholarship for lefties attending Juniata College. Many schools offer discounts for twins which, as a father of twins, I'm personally excited about. And, of course, there are scholarships reserved for people of particular ethnicity, religion, and, yes, gender. So there is nothing wrong with Stack Exchange and Fog Creek setting aside scholarship money for aspiring women programmers.

As for limiting the online portion of the mentoring program to women, there are practical considerations to be considered. I think it quite natural that women will do a better job of helping other women navigate Stack Overflow. But more importantly, we men have a lot to answer to when it comes to our online treatment of women. You are free to disagree with that decision, but you cannot convince me that "excluding men" is sexist.

You might think about extending the mission of StackOverflow into the StackOverflow world first before getting any bigger ideas.—tmyklebu

I'm glad you pointed that out: Can we make this meta site work for mentoring?

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  • 1
    nothing wrong with mentoring people. The gripe I and others have with it is the sexist and discriminatory nature of the program, excluding men completely for the sake of being "inclusive" (and thus ending up being anything but).
    – jwenting
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 6:28
  • You might think about extending the mission of StackOverflow into the StackOverflow world first before getting any bigger ideas.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 9:56
  • 5
    @jwenting: Please see my updated answer. I would also encourage you to read the whole of MLK's letter from jail. It's easy to get sidetracked while doing good by plans to do better. You gotta start somewhere.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 14:05
  • @JonEricson: Not what I was getting at. The philosophy SE employees espouse in public is at odds with the reality of the community moderation on SO. I really think some effort needs to be made to rein in the brainless rule-following on SO. Only then can using meta for mentoring make any sense.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:21
  • @jwenting, do you mean men who need mentoring, or men who want to mentor?
    – Jaydles Staff
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:33
  • @tmyklebu: I'm with you on that. But changing a community (especially when a course correction, not a revolution, is needed) turns out to be way harder than creating new features or starting new initiatives. The concern that this question was somehow off-topic (or spam!) speaks volumes to me. The good news, however, is that productive conversations still occur (and will continue to be started by me and others) on this meta site. Our strange mix of meritocracy and democracy may very well produce positive results if we are patient and persistent.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:33
  • 1
    @tmyklebu Stack Overflow is the biggest we can get: most programmers are there, either lurking or actively participating. One of the major points of this program is to do something smaller scale that we can learn from before launching something that will have hundreds or thousands of participants. We've never done formal mentoring, so we're using something small as a starting place.
    – Laura Staff
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 17:30
10
votes

I feel like this is affirmative action, and I'm not sure I'm comfortable with that.

Full disclosure: I mentor folks for a very symbolic price over on Codementor, basically for my own enjoyment and fulfillment. I've mentored men and women, and I am not biased towards any of the two.

Now! I don't know about the actual male:female ratio in the industry, and I bet that changes a lot based on geographic location, culture, religion and other factors that really shouldn't interfere, but practically (and sadly) do.

For reference, in the company I work for, we probably have more males working than females, although not by that much.


I disagree with programs that are biased towards a specific gender (especially coming from an organization that specifically states that they aren't biased against age, gender, religion or location, such as Stack Exchange), and I'm very surprised that Stack Exchange even took this on.

It may sound harsh, but if these women want 1:1 mentoring, they should hire a mentor, just like any other person who would in their position.

I'm all for volunteering (If my 3 years on Stack Overflow say anything), but I don't condone gender-specific actions. The distance from here to C+= is not far.

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  • 17
    Purging comments here. I'm gonna recommend that folks interested in expressing opinions that can't really be fleshed out fully in a comment take to writing a separate answer - Meta gets used for actual discussion so rarely it appears some have forgotten how to do that, but it's totally possible: just pretend you're debating a position instead of arguing with a person or particular turn of phrase.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 20:34
  • 14
    hear hear. Preferential treatment of women over men is as much discrimination as the reverse (and in my experience the reverse does NOT happen in IT, anywhere I've ever been women were respected and treated like their male colleagues, paid the same hourly rate as their male colleagues, etc. If anything they got special privileges because laws require those sometimes). If you want "equal opportunities", let them be equal, and not favour women (or whomever) as that only generates bad blood ("did she get the job because of her skills or because she's a woman"...).
    – jwenting
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 7:04
  • 1
    @jwenting i agree with you buddy. check this out:"equalists" get downvoting smacks by ...uber..."equalists"(?!?!?!?!): meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/270032/… now thats awkward
    – Sharky
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 14:42
  • 1
    @Sharky I know. If you're not in favour of "positive discrimination" (at least here they use that term, not the totally ridiculous "equal opportunities" which is anything but equal) you must be a racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever. Of course any "positive discrimination" towards someone is automatically negative towards someone else, and ends up creating resentment towards the favoured group.
    – jwenting
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 15:10
  • 3
    @jwenting: I agree that not everyone who is opposed to positive discrimination is demonstrating discriminatory behaviours. But this categorisation cuts both ways: some of those people are sexist and/or racist. As for whether discrimination happens in IT, my guess is that you do not see it because you've not experienced it. See the link on Privilege in my answer, or search for "male privilege" on the web - there really is plenty of (academic) material on this.
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 16:37
  • 2
    @Sharky: I think the downvotes there signify that readers thought the OP was not suggesting a new assistance programme in good faith.
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 21:02
  • 1
    +1 for "but if these women want 1:1 mentoring, they should hire a mentor". If someone is willing to pay $12k for 3-month training and is expecting to be made a programmer in that time, instead of choosing free public education, which requires more time and effort, so they have more money then time to spare, it would be actually fair to expect they should hire a mentor. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 12:48
6
votes

This is a good initiative, but the ends don't justify the means. It doesn't belong on MSO which should be about discussing the SO site itself. StackExchange Inc is asserting special privileges to itself that any other organisation wouldn't get, at least under the currently advertised rules for MSO.

Until this post I thought that there were clear areas on the site for advertising and that the rest of it was a properly self-contained thing - like how Google separates organic and sponsored search results.

There are plenty of alternative ways this could have been promoted and discussed. A simple blogpost with threaded comments would be an alternative. StackExchange Inc could even have run up a custom StackExchange site if the "Q&A" (or rather Announcement and Questions) format was considered important. The SO community could be reached by using the standard advertising space on the main site.

I'm particularly disappointed in the way moderation has been handled.

The first comment by @l4mpi pointing out that it's off-topic had received over 50 upvotes before being deleted - roughly twice the upvotes that @Shog9's "competing" reply had received at the time. The comment pointing out it was off-topic was removed long before the (now orphaned) reply. This also happened with other comments in the thread - for example my own explaining why I'd voted to close was removed but the reply by a S.E. employee was kept.

The question has also been closed 3 times so far by community votes, and re-opened immediately by a moderator each time. This could have been left to the community votes.

None of this feels impartial to me, and it feels like StackExchange Inc wants to give the impression of getting the community's views, but only on their own terms.

I also don't think the moderators (community or S.E. employees) have taken a step back and thought about how to handle this in a way that can be seen to be fair.

StackExchange is still a great network, but this episode leaves me thinking a bit less of it.

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  • 7
    @Kendra I have similar feelings here as Ganesh. Frankly, if anyone else had posted about this program (or any equivalent mentoring program), it would be closed as off topic, if not deleted as spam (since it's a for-profit concern).
    – thegrinner
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 20:49
  • I'll assure you, the bias is pretty deliberate. This isn't a program we're running because we're a software house and need publicity or something; we're involved because we honestly believe that improving the education of new programmers fits with the mission of Stack Overflow the site. And that's you folks, the people debating this here, not the handful of caretakers in NYC's financial district. We've been talking about this for months now, on Area51, in other meta posts... But this is where the rubber meets the road: is mentoring something SO - the site - wants to do?
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 22:16
  • 2
    I was referring to the biased moderation decisions highlighted in my post, not the mentoring thing itself. If you're saying that it was a deliberate decision to disproportionately remove dissenting comments, I'd be even more disappointed. Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 22:19
  • I can't speak to comment moderation apart from my own involvement; there have been to-date 5 different elected moderators responding to comment flags, plus several employees, plus folks removing their own comments. You can see where I've been involved because I purge all sides of the discussion and leave a comment encouraging folks to post answers instead - but there's little doubt that some deletions are happening from the mod dashboard where only the flagged comment is shown or removed.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 22:30
  • 5
    Which is exactly my point - without there necessarily being any deliberate bias, the overall effect has been disappointing. Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 22:34
  • 1
    Fair point - I've taken steps to remedy this.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 22:43
  • 6
    @Shog9 Will the next step be not overpowering community's decision(s) on closing the post as off-topic? :-)
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 23:04
  • 2
    Nope. That particular bit of bias was very much intended...
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 23:14
  • 2
    Given the moderator reopens, I have to wonder whether SO is being asked or told what it wants to do. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 7:24
  • This answer might be better posted on Find a better mechanism for Stack Exchange-blessed recruitment attempts, although I'm not sure that it's out of place here.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 8:29
  • 5
    FWIW, my comment which is referenced here wasn't intended to make people vote to close the question. I feel that everybody who did so lacks common sense - if an SE employee posts an official announcement here, it's simply not going to be closed. I just found it curious that a meta.SO question was used and wanted to hear the reasons for that - seeing the extended discussions here, I think this works better than a blog post (and is considerably less effort than creating a new site). I am however a bit disappointed that my comment was deleted long before the other comments were purged.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 9:05
  • 2
    I guess "it's simply not going to be closed" is exactly the thing I have a problem with. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 9:20
  • 1
    At least one of the close voters made his decision having no doubt that it would be overridden, @l4mpi; it's a record of an opinion, even if not verbal.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 9:30
  • @ Ganesh I see this pragmatically - it wouldn't have been useful to close this question once it was posted here. I'm hoping that SE will learn a lesson that this could have been handled in a better way and think of something better for future announcements and requests like this. @JoshCaswell OK, but it's not exactly constructive. Not that I have a huge problem with that, but it's probably a wiser idea to make that point in an answer like this one.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 9:43
  • An answer saying "this question shouldn't have been posted" is pretty borderline even for Meta, @l4mpi. Although, admittedly, I've sort of done it once.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 9:45
5
votes

Stack Overflow is a great place to look for mentors. Considering the amount of time some people spend here on a day to day basis I think it wouldn't hurt to donate some of it towards mentoring others.

I will definitely be looking for some feedback after the project finishes and future possibilities this opens up for SE as a business. I believe this has a great potential to develop into a SE mentoring school where both parties (SE & SO users) could find a lot of benefit from participating. (who knows maybe even financially)

PS. I think this should have been posted on MSE

3
  • 1
    Interesting point on MSE vs MSO... We do tend to prefer MSE for more "voice of the company"-type posts, but in this case I really do think this is an issue specific to Stack Overflow and doesn't need or particularly benefit from the rest of the network's input. We could've also thrown up a post on MSE and an event on SO to announce the project, but that would've still disenfranchised SO users to a degree; one of the big advantages of the meta split is that it grants full privileges (voting, commenting) on meta to the folks who've earned them on SO.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 22:06
  • 1
    @Shog9 Actually yeah I see your point now and I have to agree. One more point is that I know a lot of users who don't really participate on SO or MSO but are very good programmers (they would make great mentors) - specially on CodeReview. If it was posted for the wider audience of SE I think it would attract even more attention :)
    – user2140173
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 22:22
  • 1
    Another good point! If/when we expand this program, we'll definitely have to be much more inclusive.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 22:24
5
votes

I think this is a fantastic thing. Flat-out, hands-down, no-reservations. There are some minor details that are being discussed/debated (who to partner with; whether mentors should be female, as well; etc), but those are really just details, and I'm pretty confident that great decisions will be made there.


That said, I have a note for those who have commented that there are other 'disadvantaged' groups who could use assistance, as well; why just women?

I agree. Someone has noted the dearth of folks of African descent in software development, relative to their numbers in the population. (Yes; I understand that is a gigantic generalization and may not apply in some regions.) There are others one could point to. I'm not here to argue the validity of whether certain groups are underrepresented. And yes; there's probably a need for more mentoring for everyone.

But here's the thing: No one person/organization can do everything. Imagine if you tried to help every single worthwhile cause. Even just those you know about. You would have no time/money for anything else, and your assistance to each cause would be all but worthless; the logistics and costs of processing your help would result in a negative.


Stack Exchange itself is a model of specializing in something, and concentrating on doing that thing well. New features are vigorously nay-sayed because most people recognize that broadening the focus of Stack Exchange sites would dilute its purpose and effectiveness.

The same goes for supporting causes. You pick one. Or two. Or whatever you can handle. That is: You do your part. This is what Stack Exchange has decided to do right now. They are also trying something fairly new, so they are starting 'small', testing the waters as they go. Perhaps a model can come of this to be used more broadly. If so; great. If not; great effort - tweak it and move on.

If you, dear reader, feel strongly that some other group needs a program like this, then start it. Get some people together and do it. Approach an organization not already involved in putting together their own effort. And... please be careful about how you criticize an organization who is trying to do the Good they think needs to be done.

4
votes

It's almost ten years ago now that I sat in my graduate cube in the computer science building and listened to one of the very very few women in the undergraduate CS program -- and this was one of the most gender-balanced departments I've ever seen, with 50-50 women-men in faculty and about 40-60 in graduate students, but the undergraduate gender balance was as horrible as it is elsewhere -- and heard her say plaintively, "How long do I have to do this before I catch up with all those boys who already know everything?"

And now I have two daughters of my own, and I like to imagine a world in which it's as easy for them to do what I've done professionally as it has been for me. I have to admit that's not the world we're in right now. So anything that gets us closer to that world, flawed and/or token though it might be, has my vote.

2
  • Did you explain to her that most of those boys are faking it?
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 9:59
  • I tried. (And, as far as I know, she and several of her classmates are still in the industry, so they must have had more support than just me.)
    – pjmorse
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 12:44
0
votes

First of all, this question is not sexist.Now,I think its rather difficult to find female mentors (or female programmers. PS : No disrespect to the female community). I work for a company with several thousand employees all over the world. 70% of the employees are male. As far as SO users are concerned, while answering a question, we never check out the OPs gender. So, I don't think it matters (from a mentor's perspective) whether the mentee is a male or a female. It might matter to the mentees (frankly, It wouldn't matter to me. But I can't talk for everybody)

One thing I expect to find in a question like this is - What is the criteria for applying? and on what basis will a trainer be selected/judged?. Would it be solely based on the person's skills?. I hope not. What level of expertise on a subject is expected?. Is the language only english?.

Unfortunately, neither the question nor the form answer these.

This kind of information will help us in understanding what is expected from us if we were to apply.

4
  • 1
    We don't have strict criteria other than what's outlined (although we probably should have included language - yes, it's English-only for this group). We prefer female mentors, and you have to have some full-time programming experience. We're going to ask the mentees if there's anything in particular they're looking for that they might not be able to get from their in-person mentor (whether that's a female perspective on career stuff generally, or expertise in a particular language / technology) and will try to match based on that.
    – Laura Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 16:55
  • @Laura - Again, you are leaving out the finer details. What level of expertise are you expecting?. For example, when a person says he knows java, are you expecting him to have understood how JVM behaves, what is the internal architecture of JIT, escape analysis, memory barriers etc. Or are you just expecting basic (sufficient)knowledge, a strong will and a commitment to the cause?. The first step for me would be - understand what the mentees want from you. Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 17:08
  • My guess will be that mentors will write a profile (it's probably on the form, in fact) and will be paired with mentees on the basis of best fit. To be fair, I don't expect anyone new in tech will be expecting internal JIT architecture levels of knowledge!
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 17:31
  • 1
    Sexist, maybe no. Fishy, yes. Accenting the "special needs based on stereotypes" for any group actually strengthen that stereotypes. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 9:15
0
votes

Let's stop being afraid of WORDS!

A huge part of the debate seems to be oriented on what is or is not sexist/discriminating/prejudicial etc.

Allow me to disgress from the mentoring a bit because I think those points could really help the general understanding between everyone.

First: Discrimination

Discriminating someone is not an evil thing. Our very live depends on discrimination. Our eyes discriminate some things we see (such as furniture, wall colors, usual shapes) to allow us to concentrate on precise things. Our hearing discriminates sounds such as a motor running over time so that when a more important sound (such as a coworker speaking to us) we will hear it over the ambient sounds. When we invite friends to a party, we discriminate some of them based on who we've already invited. All of this is discrimination. Is it bad or evil?? NO

If we have two appliances for mentors with pretty much the same experience, choosing one based on it's sex is called DISCRIMINATION, and it is OK. Discriminating things is a normal part of life.

Second: Sexism

When I consider who I'd like to date, I usually think of women. This is a sexist think to do, in the sense that the only criterion is their sex. Lots of things we accept are sexist (obviously), but for one, let's consider (very briefly) the point of abortion. Women should be plain masters of their body, so that if they wish for abortion, they should be the only judge.

Even if it is ok to be so, it still qualifies as sexist

It is assuredly not equal way of approaching the matter, but it is the good one. Yet, it is sexist.

Discriminating appliances based on sex is sexism

Third: Sexism is okay, sometimes

such as when people want to select the best mentors for their female programmers. Sexism is associated with evil, historically rightly so, but we must know that the general concept in itself is just that: a concept of behaviours based on sex.

Conclusion: now let there be harmony

To fellow men who thinks of this discrimination as unfair

It is not. It is not equal either. But it is fair, for all the points mentioned in lots of comments by our fellow SO users.

To fellow women reacting with great energy

Please accept that this programme is sexist even if it is to balance an already sexist situation. It is not less sexist because you are treated in a sexist way.

Bottom line: let's stop reading 'you are evil' or 'You should not do this' when reading words like sexism or discrimination

Good sexist decision exists, and I think this is a good sexist initiative.

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  • 1
    I think I agree with your overall message of "let's focus on this program", but trying to force specific definitions (even ones that are technically correct) seldom works out well. Whether we like it or not, words like "discrimination" and "sexism" have certain connotations that at this point have little to do with their technical definition. That's a fight that's already lost, so I think we're best off recognizing that words like these (and also various slurs, etc) will have a negative impact and frame our arguments based on that understanding.
    – Adam Lear StaffMod
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 19:28
  • I could be wrong, and correct me if I am, but don't you mean "applications" and not "appliances"? It's not a huge problem, but it's distracting me; And if I am wrong, it will distract me less because I will know so. :)
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 19:31
  • you're most definitely right dictionary.reference.com/browse/appliance Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 19:32
  • @FélixGagnon-Grenier Thank you- I am glad to have learned something new. I didn't know "appliance" could apply to the act of applying. I'd have looked it up myself, but I was concurrently working on something else. At the same time, great post.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 19:33
  • Mixing the debate about abortion with this, is like trying to put the fire away with gasoline :P Otherwise good post :)
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 20:03
  • 1
    @BartoszKP Yeah i hesitated a while, but i do believe it's been expressed in a not-too-flamewarsish way... Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 20:10
  • I agree with @Anna, I don't think it is helpful to define 'good sexism'. Moreover, feminist theory suggests that sexism isn't just about gender prejudice, but how that prejudice relates to existing power imbalances (more here).
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 21:12
  • 1
    @halfer lol, just please don't. I think there is really better chance for understanding if we stick to what words mean in the dictionary, not to their skewed meaning when they're being redefined for whatever ideological purpose (either good or bad).
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 21:18
  • 2
    @BartoszKP, I'm OK with your disagreement, especially if you find levelling the playing field "ideological". I find Félix in good faith, for what it's worth, but where people loudly insist that minority programmes are just sexism/racism in disguise, I'm not so sure. We should remember that whilst not everyone opposed to these initiatives harbours discriminatory ideas, some of them really are sexist/racist. We should be challenging that, I think.
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 21:28
  • (Aside: I've done quite a lot of linking to sites about sexism in this thread, and I've found a fair bit that I don't agree with. I thought the relevant paragraph in the above was quite good, however).
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 21:32
  • 1
    @halfer The point is, that calling this sexism is just a result of correctly applying the definition of this word. It does not imply being "opposed to these initiatives".
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 21:32
  • @BartoszKP - thanks. We disagree as to whether the word has been correctly used. I've not looked "sexism" up in the dictionary, but if this programme is regarded as "sexist" we disagree about that. My honest view is that word isn't useful as a description, and we learn less about it when that label is applied.
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 21:38
  • 2
    @halfer Sorry, but you do write code, right? You must know that words don't change their meaning only because you find them "not a useful description" or because you don't like the implications. Refer to the first header in this answer :-)
    – BartoszKP
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 21:41
  • 2
    @jmort253: Yes, but it makes sense to use the right words rather than try to talk in circles about how this is "empowering women" rather than "sexist." It's sexist, and that's OK.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 10:03
  • 2
    By reading the words that come after, between and before, like most words Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 13:11
-1
votes

DISCLAIMER: THESE ARE MY PERSONAL THOUGHTS, AND NOT AN OFFICIAL RESPONSE FROM STACK EXCHANGE

I'd like to define a few terms relevant to the discussion happening in this post.


Sexism

Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Discrimination

The unjust or prejudicial treatment of different categories of people or things, especially on the grounds of race, age, or sex.

Prejudice

Dislike, hostility, or unjust behavior deriving from unfounded opinions.


The I.T. Field Is Sexist To Women

This is a fact, not a debate. Women are not treated as equals to men in the field of I.T. Women make less than men on average in almost all fields of work, experience a glass ceiling and are placed on the "mommy track" in many organizations, and are under-represented in the field.

It's easy as men to think that women are treated equally to us, because I.T. is very fair to us. However, I.T. is very unfair to women (see above links).

Why The Mentorship Program Isn't Sexist

This mentorship program aims to help bridge the quantified, measured gap between men and women, and in doing so does not indicate that women are superior to men, or that men are inferior, either of which would be sexism.

Is it not sexist to have an organization such as Flatiron School create a mentorship program for women because it does not perpetuate the belief that women are superior to men; it strives to make them equal.

Is it not sexist for Stack to prefer female mentors for these 16 women because Stack does not perpetuate the belief that women are superior to men or that men are superior to women; it strives to make them equal.

It IS exclusionary for Stack to prefer female mentors, but in the context of the eventually exposed fact that 15 of the 16 on-site mentors are male, it really is just an attempt to even the field and get a rounded group of people involved.

What Would Make The Mentorship Program Sexist

If this mentorship program indicated that they preferred women mentors because they are superior to men, that would be sexist. If this mentorship program claimed that the 16 mentees were superior to men because they're women, that too would be sexist. It claims neither.

In the same way that Big Brothers recruits adult males to mentor young males, and Big Sisters recruits adult females to mentor young females, Stack aims to recruit female programmers to mentor new female programmers. This is not sexism.

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    I think it's sexist to offer free help to women and not for men. Things go both ways. If you want to bridge the gap, fix what's causing it, don't try to put band-aids on the problem. Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:30
  • 2
    I wouldn't call it sexism, more along the lines of exclusion. Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:31
  • 4
    @SecondRikudo read the post please. It is not sexism to offer free help to women and not men. It would be sexist to indicate that women are superior to men.
    – Haney Staff
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:31
  • 4
    @SecondRikudo How do you know that won't happen down the line? They've indicated that this is a pilot case- There will likely be free mentoring groups for males, or co-ed free mentoring groups down the line if this goes well.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:32
  • 40
    Call it however you want, it's discrimination aimed to correct discrimination. It never works, and it only leaves to extra frustration. Men feel frustrated about being actively discriminated, and women feel as if they're stupid because they need these extra help that men don't get. It never ends. Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:33
  • 19
    @SecondRikudo There's a pretty big difference between providing selective assistance to a group that has serious, demonstrable challenges in getting into this industry, versus providing selective assistance to the group that dominates it. To frame this another way; what we're doing is akin to "let's provide financial aid to people who can't afford college" and you're arguing that we need to provide equal financial aid to the rich. If your opinion is that voluntary assistance should never be provided to a disadvantaged group, then.. I suppose I disagree.
    – Shane Madden Staff
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:45
  • 5
    @SecondRikudo - If there was 16 males, I assume the same conversation with the majority male voices dominating the discussion with the minority female voices would occour. It's always funny to watch the privledged majority get all uppity as you have here when their privledge is just slightly challenged.
    – Twelfth
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:49
  • 7
    @Twelfth there's no reason to be biased about gender in most cases, unless it's required to use the same locker rooms, like in sports. Obviously men and women aren't biologically equal, and have different needs. Which I don't see how programming fits into this equation what so ever, other than a publicity stunt and political agenda.
    – CRABOLO
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 21:55
  • 4
    @iStimple I'm not sure what you're getting at, but if we're going to run with my crappy analogy, think of this volunteer assistance as a scholarship and not a loan; and anyway, college loan debt is not a problem for the privileged, those whose families pay for their education don't need loans. Emerging from the bad analogy, you said elsewhere that No one is trying to stop these females or anyone else from entering the industry. which is simply false; I personally know women who have left programming due to sexism. It's there and fighting it is justified, whether or not you personally see it.
    – Shane Madden Staff
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 22:03
  • 5
    @iStimple - Ha, so you are saying in an industry like this there is no gender bias for the most case? You may as well have written "as long as the bias isn't against me there isn't one". There is a bias in a huge portion of these cases in this industry, if you can't recognize that for starters, these conversations will continue to go no where
    – Twelfth
    Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 22:05
  • 24
    Sexism - Prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex? The I.T. Field Is Sexist To Women This is a fact, not a debate. Thank you for giving these guidelines God. We know now that we should not criticize you, or debate what you think is not debatable. Commented Aug 27, 2014 at 22:16
  • 3
    This is why this type of content should have gone on the blog "politics" has no place here, this carries on I'm not going to stick around.
    – user692942
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 9:28
  • 4
    hardly has anything ever been more distanced from reality. IT women are actually sought-after and are treated as equals - i have worked with a few already, all of them earned MORE than i do - which is actually unfair because my skills are pretty high for my age ... but i dont mind. Sorry but you guys live in a dreamworld full of internet blogs, internet news and wannabe-feminism-movements which are actually hate-everything-male-movements.
    – specializt
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 17:00
  • 3
    @specializt Legal proccedings can happen here as well. Thankfully I haven't experienced anything horrible enough to a) turn me away from computers and IT all together or b) make me spend the time I could use bettering myself to sue someone. I'm just saying it is indeed a thing- Yes, there is a lot of over-hyped and falsified information out there, plenty of false claims, but there are also the women (and men in some cases) that don't want to come forward to say something has happened for various reasons. Claiming it doesn't happen, though is false. It happens; The degree is the factor here.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 17:15
  • 4
    @Haney I prefered you before you posted that. You do realize that prefering a gender over the other (however good the reasons may be) is discrimination. it's not evil, but it IS discrimination. Discrimination, based on a sex, is called sexism (as defined in the dictionary, and your post, at least)... which is OKAY, by the way, it is ok to do this sexism in the circonstances. But at the very least, stand up to your words and accept that this is a sexist way of managing appliances! Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 18:46
-4
votes

We don't have to make a big fuss about being the best. We just know.

-Unknown (to me) author

To begin with: a lot of people laugh at us, IT specialists. There are numerous jokes about us, stereotypes, etc, but we don't care about it, because they need us, they pay us, and despite the fact that we could say we are discriminated by others, we don't. We don't care what they say about us. We just ignore that fact, whereas women fight for their laws, trying to make people like them. That makes people angry, because someone wants to shape their emotions by force, and this, in turn, gives opposite result.

So you fight harder for your laws, men defend harder, vicious circle. You, women, have equal rights. This is not to be contested. But people will never look at women the same way as they look at men. It is women who get pregnant and a lot of employers will expect the woman to leave the job (or get less hours) in order to take care of the child, or at least for the time when she gives birth. That is not a problem. The problem is, when an employer gets someone not because (s)he's good. Boss will not try to find something (s)he does not expect from the employee.

In my point of view, if you, women, want to be treated more equally, then get your position without saying anything about gender, so that people will expect you to professionally do your work. They will more likely see you as "a skilled person" instead of "skilled, for a woman".

In Sweden (or their neighborhood) people have made a poll. There was hardly any male nurse in a hospital and nearly none female engineers in big companies, despite their equality programs and numerous ways people are encouraged to not take gender as an issue there. Some fields are like that - no matter what you do, you will never have equal number of men and woman there. And I, personally have never seen a woman laying bricks for a living, but saw some operating cranes in Russian T90 tank factory.

The last thing I don't get about your question, it was posted as one of comments (by someone else) below your post. You want women mentors, just like that, without giving a good reason, or even a choice. Please tell us, why gender matters to you? Why just don't gather a list and let the people choose a mentor on their own? If you want mentors to give programming advice - gender is of no importance. If you want mentors to help them overcome sexism and similar stuff - why not ask on workplace stackexchange?

10
  • 1
    "You want women mentors, just like that, without giving a good reason, ..." - The reason was that there were already 15 male mentors. I believe diverse mentoring teams to be a great idea, no matter who (or what gender) the mentees are. "or even a choice" - women would be preferred (because reason). Doesn't mean that men won't be considered. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:27
  • 2
    "This is not to be contested" is not a very persuasive QED. Aside from that, this whole post appears to suffer from the kind of gender discrimination that it claims does not exist. Odd, that.
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:44
  • @halfer please give me at least one quote from modern country law where it is said "woman this, men that". Katja: "Diversity because diversity" - I don't get it, sorry, not my background.
    – anon
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:47
  • @Kendra that was my point, that's why I challenged halfer.
    – anon
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:53
  • 1
    @carpetjar I think halfler's point was that discrimination does exist and your post kinda reads in the light that it doesn't while sounding relatively discriminatory. His point had nothing to do with laws. That's why I said what I did.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:55
  • @carpetjar "Diversity because diversity" - where did that come from? What I meant was that it is good to have a group of people with different backgrounds sharing their work experience. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:56
  • 2
    And as @KatjaChristiansen mentioned, they do say in the post why they want female mentors. Twice. Two different places. So that last paragraph is kinda null... Diversity because diversity will give the mentees a look at both sides of the workforce, if nothing else. They'd get a man's perspective of it, and a females. On top of that, they will likely more closely relate to their female counterparts.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:58
  • 1
    Also "If you want mentors to give programming advice - gender is of no importance. If you want mentors to help them overcome sexism and similar stuff - why not ask on workplace stackexchange?" And if you want both, ask here for female mentors who may have been through and or seen what you want to help them overcome.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 16:05
  • 1
    Women mentoring women doesn't have to have anything to do with gender at all. I was asked to talk in front of a group of female students once about my experiences as a female working in a male dominated field. It didn't even occur to me to mention gender. I just wanted to show them how interesting and challenging my field of work is. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 16:07
  • 2
    @carpetjar: the reason why I find this post problematic is that it assumes gender diversity comes from "all women" and is opposed by "all men". This is rather divisive opinion, and it isn't even true - the world is much more complex than that. Many men support diversity (as I do) and not all women are fighting for it. You are right that some men fight against diversity, but it is important to understand why that might be: men are privileged in gender terms already, and some of them are taking steps to preserve that privilege.
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 16:32
-7
votes

Diversity in tech has become an increasingly urgent issue, both on- and offline.

Would it be too much to ask to approach this kind of thing without the zealotry? Some of us don't appreciate you pushing your religion onto us.

We have always tried to make Stack Exchange an inclusive environment, but we know we can and should do more.

In comment thread under your question, every comment that expressed even mild divergence from your Equalism religion (most of them thoughtful and well-reasoned) was nuked. How is this supposed to be "an inclusive environment"? This is purely Orwellian -- censor all viewpoints that diverge even slightly from your own, and call that "inclusive." "Diversity" is a community of like-minded conformists of all races and genders.

Believe it or not, some of us who are not raving Cultural Marxists believe in equality of opportunity for women. And I would hope that (assuming that you actually think your ideas can be defended on their merits), even those heretics who do not prostrate themselves before the holy altar of Equalism would not have their comments censored in a purportedly "inclusive environment."


Sample of the deleted comments:

  • Not anger, but joined the vote to close based on--as others have said--it's a test of one's consistency to take who asks a question out of the question and evaluate it impartially. That's what being fair is about. On the same note, I'll remark that I've always thought a better way to look at things is gender neutrality vs trying to "fight fire with fire"...the point should be "it doesn't matter" vs "we pick women", that just is creating the same problem again.
  • Diversity in tech has become an increasingly urgent issue, both on- and offline. Says who? The media?
  • but preference will be given to female mentors for this round That's sexist.
  • preference will be given to female mentors for this round I feel excluded in this "inclusive environment".
  • Isn't this just sexism?
  • funny how the viewpoint of everybody here who did not downright totally agree was not even worth being a viewpoint, let alone empathise and view
  • @Haney I agree with your embarrasement. This is why I feel uneasy when you write "you were all a bunch of sexist". I am pretty sure this is not meant to be applied to all people in this question, but just the one with sexist comments - Would be nice to make this clear. Because I don't like to be called sexist, and I sure hope I am not one.
  • I wonder if the logic was "all guy geeks are creeps and no girl would want to work with them". facepalm
  • How will this be different from black to black courses and white to white courses? It is very racist to exclude some people from a course based on their gender or color. And I should mention the fact that all IT courses in my town are free just for women. I am sad that proposals that against the rules are allowed here. Until now it was a real sanctuary free of politics and where everybody, including stack team respected the rules
  • @Shog9: well, yes. And this is a fine and worthy cause but we do regularly tell other people that they shouldn't be trying to use the platform for promotion. Perhaps something that Stack Exchange is doing is an exception, but the backlash is predictable. In a way this reminds me of the Steve Jobs memorial banner: seemed like a good idea at the time, but are we sure we know what the consequences are going to be. (And for the record, Ritchie was way more deserving.)
  • This question appears to be off-topic because it is using SO meta as advertisement for a program which is a reasonable fit for Programmers.SE. Meta is here for the express purpose of managing the SO site (policy, moderation, technical issues, etc). This topic is none of those.
7
  • 8
    Right now, there are 96 visible comments and 46 deleted on the question. I don't have time to go hand-score how many are from people that agree with this initiative and how many are from people that don't, but you can just scroll up a little bit to see that we're not "nuking" "every comment that expressed even mild divergence". If you'd like to ask a question or comment on the actual subject of this thread – a mentoring program – you're more than welcome to, but please stop making ridiculous claims with hyperbolic language.
    – Laura Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 19:23
  • 4
    Regarding process: the vast majority of comments there were still visible until they were flagged a few hours ago and several moderators intervened. Temporary Post-It notes, remember? With close to 50 flags on just that one thread, it's actually rather unusual that the entire set of comments wasn't purged - I would have to say the moderators are exercising a fair bit of discretion here today. Note that unlike comments, answer deletion is subject to community oversight - so it's worth keeping that in mind when deciding where to post feedback.
    – Shog9
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 19:29
  • 1
    @Laura so you're just randomly deleting comments, I guess? No bias whatsoever?
    – McGarnagle
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 19:30
  • 2
    @McGarnagle See Shog's comment: most of those were deleted by moderators (not me, not other SE employees) because of flags raised by the community. You're also welcome to browse all the answers disagreeing with various aspects of this post. Also, please note that we are actually discussing this here, in public.
    – Laura Staff
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 19:32
  • 3
    I think it's fair that you are given space to disagree, but the anger demonstrated in your answer rather does you a disservice. I accept also that you think that us 'cultural marxists' are either brainwashed or are brainwashing, but that isn't going to persuade many people to your camp. Rational and respectful discourse, please.
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 21:55
  • 3
    I think you and I read Orwell very differently. Or perhaps you were thinking of a work by another author.
    – Air
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 0:10
  • 2
    I do not disagree with anything you've written. However, I still think this is a good cause and I'm happy SE employees are advancing it. And I'm still happy with the means they've chosen to advance it.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 9:52
-11
votes

Firstly, enough with Asperger's

I learned long ago that Stackoverflow being a virtual home to self-styled geniuses who smirk of an apologetic overplayed aspergers vibe, makes contributing for first-timers often feel as rewarding as getting kicked in the gonads with a metallic boot. For sanity's sake, 99% of Stackoverflow users are scared into the shadows by rabid trolls who get-off angrily downvoting anybody who dares offend them by being so mind-numbingly stupid as to innocently miss just one of their many nuanced rules while benevolently trying to contribute -- this instead of helping clarify and correct contributions like the intelligent beings they purport themselves. You sirs, neither own the monopoly on genius nor on bastardry and are certainly not in the makings of a Mark Zuckerberg.

Secondly, a sorority in tech ain't never hurt nobody

Anger is the most publicly permissible male emotion in society, even on the intertubes and especially if directed at downtrodden folk such as wimmin or minorities, hence as a man, just like my brothers in testosterone on here who are indignantly outraged at the grave injustice of womon on womon mentorship, I'm enraged that they're enraged -- cwying like the chick-deflecting card-carrying MRA chauvinists they likely are while painting all men in tech as whiny petty sexists devoid of any and all social perspectives on gender, race, and the social privileges there in. If we're being honest, tech is the proverbial ol' boys association and men need technology mentorships like fish need swimming lessons -- since for us, the door is wide open and if not, we just kick it open.

Lastly, it's necessary that a mentee identify with their mentor

A mentee must identify with their mentor because:

  1. They would feel more comfortable under the guidance of someone who appears to socially get them and where they're coming from -- one who shares in their struggle.
  2. They would feel less intimidated and more confident when they come to know someone like themselves who made the cut -- one who blazed the trail before them.

Thank you for reading and happy downvoting.

18
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    The last word of first headline together with the begin of second line of the paragraph below qualifies as hate speech. As for the other part, I don't see any point there. What's your point actually? Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 9:12
  • 2
    While I agree with much of the content of your first paragraph and am willing to chalk the rest up to hyperbole, phrasing it as you have tends to alienate people and make them "dig in their heels." This is not a productive way to fix the problem.
    – tmyklebu
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 9:54
  • 6
    I think this is meant to be supportive of the programme, but there's so many problems with it, I don't know where to start.
    – halfer
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 10:02
  • 2
    Your last heading and content is not bad, and I can't imagine down voting it. I'd up vote it, perhaps. But the rest, I don't even understand. I think I would agree with some of the individual statements (though I wouldn't put them that way). Ironically, it seems you're exhibiting some of that "most publicly permissible male emotion" called anger, in your first two sections.
    – Andrew Barber Mod
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 13:04
  • @Donaudampfschifffreizeitfahrt It's only hate speech if you lose the cultural reference along with your sense of humor. My point is that there's people on here (and pretty much everywhere on the internet) who hide behind their keyboards while behaving counterproductively in what is supposed to be a benevolent and inclusive community. These people probably want the rest of us to tolerate their bad behavior while bowing to their infinite genius, as if to say It's ok I'm a genius a-hole, I've got Asperger's -- but there's people who really have it and these pretenders are defaming them.
    – user1036262
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 14:06
  • 2
    Honestly... I'm with Andrew on this one, and further. I agree fully with your last section. But you had my downvote from the beginning- I know some great people with Asperger's and I feel offended both because of that and for them in their absence. I think if you reworded your top two sections, this would receive a much better reaction.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 14:21
  • @AndrewBarber I actually said anger was perfectly alright, only that trolls act like they own the monopoly on it and think the rest of us must enjoy having to put up with their overused angry guy behind keyboard trope to attack anybody and anything they don't like or understand, but that's not helpful to building a benevolent community where everybody feels welcome, is it? I'm merely exercising my right to raging catharsis as per my male privilege.
    – user1036262
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 14:24
  • 2
    @BakerKawesa I guess I see that; but I think this post itself exhibits the behavior you seem to be raging against. That's my opinion, anyway.
    – Andrew Barber Mod
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 14:29
  • @AndrewBarber If you can't beat them, join them -:)
    – user1036262
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 14:32
  • @BakerKawesa Fair enough.
    – Andrew Barber Mod
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 14:33
  • 1
    @Kendra, I didn't mean to disparage Asperger's sufferers I merely deployed a comedic cultural theme to disparage those people who wish they had it to excuse their behavior and in so doing defame and mock people with who actually have it. A bit like how if one curses profusely and we might ask if they caught Tourette's yet that doesn't mean we intend to disparage actual sufferers of the condition.
    – user1036262
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 14:40
  • @BakerKawesa I in no way find it a "comedic cultural theme" and as someone who IRL and outside of work does swear a lot, I have never once had someone ask about Tourette's. I have refrained thus far from flagging this as offensive, at the very least, but I find that reasoning to be a very, very bad one. At the same time, I thank you for taking the time to explain your reasoning to me and do respect you for that.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 14:43
  • @Kendra Most if not all comedy is at the expense of others real life troubles -- we humans are sick I guess -- and for those who happen to be the butt of the joke it won't always be so funny unless they have a good sense of humor. Somebody even said it was hate speech and I was so shocked because I can't see the hate, just the humor; I know what true hate speech sounds like and there's no mistaking it for humor or anything else for that matter.
    – user1036262
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 14:50
  • 1
    @BakerKawesa I don't see it as hate speech really- But I don't see it funny either. That's the problem with trying to make a point with humor on the internet. It's in writing. It's there. And people are likely to take offense to it. As it stands, I have decided I still won't flag this answer, seeing as you were truly not trying to be offensive with the post, and we both now have a clearer understanding of each other's views on the subject.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 14:57
  • 3
    Bullying 101: You're the funniest person in the world and the only problem is that your critics have no sense of humor.
    – Air
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:37

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