161

I came across this "question" in review:

enter image description here

At first I thought this was just yet another review audit because the question is so obviously spam. So I proceeded to flag it as such. Turns out it wasn't an audit.

However the question wasn't deleted as spam. Instead it was put on hold by a moderator as "unclear what you're asking". My spam flag was declined as "flags should not be used to indicate technical inaccuracies, or an altogether wrong answer". (EDIT: my spam flag has changed from "declined" to "disputed")

Which leaves me scratching my head:

If this doesn't count as spam I honestly don't know what could possibly be considered spam? It's clearly advertising a product and nothing else.

19
  • 100
    I agree, this is spam - advertising a product in this way is very clearly spam
    – user6613600
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 8:54
  • 57
    That's pretty clearly spam, and should've been flagged as such.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 8:55
  • 13
    Another broken audit to add to the list :] ...
    – Seth
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 8:55
  • 2
    Hmm, it was just a spam question not caught nor by SO, nor by SmokeDetector, just flag it spam, when moderator comes by they will validate your flag (the people that closed it did wrong, but better closed then nothing, since at least the roomba would have got it). Did you have a decline flag?, Did you have problem in the review? You can also pass a comment on it to help other users like "Should not this be flagged as spam?" Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 8:58
  • 2
    @PetterFriberg: 2 mods are involved there, already. 1 closed it as unclear, another one deleted it.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 8:59
  • 1
    So where is the problem?, if moderators did not like to punish user with -100 rep, ok, what problem did OP have?, declined flag? Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:00
  • 34
    Just to clarify: this wasn't an audit. It was a real question. I flagged it as spam. Moderator closed question as "unclear what you're asking". My spam flag was declined as "flags should not be used to indicate technical inaccuracies, or an altogether wrong answer" Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:03
  • @SvenSchoenung ok that's the issue, please consider to edit this in to your post. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:04
  • @PetterFriberg Done. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:06
  • 2
    Related meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/327636/… Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:10
  • 19
    @ChrisF The flag was declined at first, then changed to disputed after I made the post here. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:38
  • 3
    @ChrisF I could have sworn the flag was declined at first, but I might have misread that. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:44
  • 14
    @SvenSchoenung my apologies. Apparently if a mod disputes subsequent flags, the resolution of previous flags is changed.
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:45
  • 8
    I like to call these types of posts "indistinguishable from spam". On the surface, the post resembles spam through and through, but you had to take a second look, and suddenly there's that nagging little hint of "maybe, just maybe a really really really misguided little sap." I've come across a couple of these cases myself, and never really known what to do with them beyond the obvious closing as unclear. (Although being a mod, I can always delete with a single click and be on my way.)
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 17:00
  • 5
    ^ In the latter case above, I even told SOCVR that I wouldn't blame anyone for flagging that post as spam.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 17:11

4 Answers 4

-111

I can't say for sure but some reasons behind not considering the post as spam might be:

  • User has other decent questions and answers.
  • User account has been there since 4 years.
  • User has never been warned for spamming SO.

That might have made some mods think that it was not "exactly spam" but a "mistake". I agree with the mods here. This is not one of those "skin care" or "movers and packers" post. This could have been a mistake. We don't want to block innocent people who unknowingly make some mistakes (yes, we are assuming that). Hence those flags were disputed (not declined, which means—you are clearly wrong).

48
  • 15
    Sounds fair. However, shouldn't the question just have been deleted, then? Also, can you mark spam flags as helpful, without marking the Q/A as spam, or are those linked?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:14
  • 13
    Maybe the account got hacked? Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:15
  • 5
    @Cerbrus - Yes, they can be marked as helpful without making the Q & A as Spam.
    – TheLostMind Mod
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:20
  • 6
    @Cerbrus - IMO disputed flag means - you are probably right. But we are not certain about it
    – TheLostMind Mod
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:25
  • 9
    Ooooh. I always read it as "This flag is incorrect, but there is indeed something wrong with the post." (so, not declined, but not right). My bad.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:27
  • 6
    @S.L.Barth - Agreed. That question should not have been posted in the first place and that's where Qbans come in (IP block would have been an overkill) :P
    – TheLostMind Mod
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:28
  • 114
    What kind of "mistake" causes a user to post obvious spam under their user account? This just seems like ex post facto justification for a poor flag-handling decision to me. It doesn't matter if the user has ever spammed before, it matters that they are spamming now. For all you know, their account has been compromised. Remember that old mantra, act based on the content, not on the user? That applies here.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 10:39
  • 64
    The part I'm not getting is how a user could possibly think that posting spam could be acceptable on any website, much less Stack Overflow. This isn't even a question, it's just a product announcement. There are no product announcements anywhere else on the site. You are suggesting to "please ensure that it actually looks like spam", but it clearly does. This couldn't be more spammy if it came out of a can. As for what the proper penalty is, that isn't the flagger's problem. Nor should it be yours. If something is obviously spam, you mark it as spam. End of discussion.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 12:11
  • 6
    So we are supposed to vote on questions not users, but mods can decide obvious spam might be OK based on a user not a question? Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 17:12
  • 57
    The process of using flags on this site has become an exercise in doublethink. We already have semi-weekly semantic arguments about the meaning of the term "answer", and now we are judging a copy-paste of a marketing mailing based on whether the user who posted it seems, on balance, to probably be an okay fellow? This is absurd.
    – jscs
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 18:07
  • 4
    @Shog9 what do you mean by "deleted by a moderator in response to a flag"? Did somebody re-flag the post after the declined spam flags? Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 18:22
  • 18
    So, what's the point of a -100 rep penalty on a flag that should only be used for users that haven't had the chance to get 100 rep? Commented Sep 3, 2016 at 0:18
  • 21
    If there's an apple in the cereal aisle, is it Cinnamon Toast Crunch? No. The post in question is 100% pure spam, and no amount of rep or veteran status should excuse that. Besides, the user who posted that has five questions and five answers, not a single one of which is positive, so I don't even see how they would qualify for special treatment. Commented Sep 3, 2016 at 17:02
  • 14
    @shog9 It's not just about a magic number. Apparently you are now explicitly alerting people when one of their recent flags has been declined. I had a flag declined the other day (which I didn't know about because I never check my flagging history), but got a message about it the next time I tried to flag something. Well, that pissed me off. The message implied I didn't know what I was doing when flagging, so I checked up on it, confirmed that I did in fact know what I was doing, and re-flagged with a custom message. Part of the problem is senseless flag handling on obvious crap answers...
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Sep 4, 2016 at 8:28
  • 12
    This comment thread has pretty clearly already covered this but these are all absolutely awful reasons for not handling spam as, well, spam. Attempting to justify a bad decision just digs the hole deeper and lowers the overall reputation of the moderation team. Somebody messed up. Don't try to cover for them. Commented Sep 7, 2016 at 16:00
150

The question is pretty clearly spam.

It advertises a product and it doesn't ask a question.

Personally, I'm a little surprised by the actions on this question.

  1. "9 hours ago"*, it had 3 downvotes, and 3 delete votes.
  2. About an hour ago, it went through the triage queue (Probably as a result of Sven's flag), where it was deemed "Unsalvageable"
  3. After which, a mod closed it as "unclear what you're asking"
  4. This meta question was posted.
  5. It was deleted by 2 users and a mod

In my opinion, it should've been deleted as spam, at step 3.
The disputed "spam" flag probably resulted from that step.

Since the user doesn't have any rep, the rep penalty associated with it wouldn't be an issue, but the note it'd leave for the mods could be of use in the future.

But then again, us users can't see all the info about a user. As has been explained in comments and TLM's answer, the flag was disputed because it has merit, but "spam" is a bit too severe.

*: "9 hours ago" is probably meant to say "today". This seems to be a summary of the actions, up to this moment.

8
  • I think the line "9 hours ago" in the timeline is the summary for today (so it has a wrong date), the question was only asked 1 hour ago.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:12
  • @Tunaki: Eeehm, good point. Issue with the timeline? Answer edited.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:19
  • Slight correction - the flag was disputed not declined. There's a difference. "Declined" means "no, you were wrong", "disputed" (in this context) means "your flag has merit, but it's not spam".
    – ChrisF Mod
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:33
  • @ChrisF: corrected in the answer :-)
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:35
  • "This seems to be a summary of the actions, up to this moment." Doubt it, as there's now an another action labelled "3 hours ago", on top of the older actions with similarly appropriately-labelled time durations. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 17:57
  • @LightnessRacesinOrbit: Votes get summarized with the timestamp of the beginning of the day in which they were cast, as opposed to the end. Other actions are not similarly summarized and have reasonable timestamps. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 19:10
  • @NathanTuggy: Nope. I was reading at ~9pm, and there were lines saying "3 hours ago" and "9 hours ago", for example. I'm looking now, at 12pm, and the latest entry says "21 hours ago"; hovering over it reveals the timestamp "14:07:56Z". That may be the beginning of the day somewhere, but speaking personally I wouldn't wish to live in a country with a timezone of +1407.94 :D Commented Sep 3, 2016 at 11:14
  • 1
    .... oh, votes. Missed that caveat entirely lol. Oooook never mind Commented Sep 3, 2016 at 11:16
25

My 2 cents about this spam flag disputed instead of approved.

Sure it is perfectly fine that moderators choose to not spam nuke a post and instead close and delete it, when looking at all the contribution that user have made to SO.

However, a "disputed flag", raise a question to flagger, "What was wrong here"?

I think since the post in itself (not considering all other activity of user), is a typical spam post, furthermore a normal user specially if <10K can't see all user activity (user could have had other 10 spam posts and we would not know).

Conclusion: It would have been a better user experience if flag was "Approved", let us only moderate the post as we should let moderators moderate the user.

7
  • 1
    I agree with you here. Unfortunately, when we "clear spam flags" (i.e, mark them as disputed), there is no option to "comment there" (not your problem, yes :P). Also, considering the vast number of flags that have to be handled, we find it difficult to "type the exact reason for declining" as well.
    – TheLostMind Mod
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 9:57
  • 3
    Then just check'em approved (in these cases, post in it self is spam) and we avoid to much confusion and complexity for us with simple mind. : ) Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 10:10
  • @PetterFriberg Marking a spam flag as helpful makes it an audit case. Not to mention, if there's something for the user to learn from with this post, e.g. it shouldn't be spam flagged, marking it as helpful would be very counter-intuitive. Perhaps with smaller-sites that would work, but at SO scale, mods don't really have the time to handhold.
    – hichris123
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 10:50
  • 20
    @hichris123, I can't see how that post would have been a bad audit, if you click "Looks ok", you probably should be banned from auditing. Furthermore, your are expecting to much from regular users who does not have all information (and have not been around in chats to know all about how mods evaluate user etc). Note: I'm considering the post spam (hence with only post info spam flag ok) and I do not think the work for mods whether a VLQ flag or Spam flag is that much different. Conclusion in this case no education is needed. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 11:04
  • 12
    @hichris123 that post would be way better audit than many others. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 18:50
  • Yeah, this would be a decent audit case in this specific instance @Alexei/Petter. However, in the general case, posts that are borderline enough for uncertainty are probably not good audit cases.
    – hichris123
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 19:18
  • 4
    The flag wasn't even "disputed" at first, it was declined. The status was changed to disputed later. Commented Sep 5, 2016 at 8:27
-78

I was the mod who handled the original flags on those posts. As far as I can remember I originally declined them, not disputed them as you indicated and subsequent actions on the post later changed them to disputed1.

Here's why I did that:

The thing that makes a post spam (i.e. nefarious/malevolent) and not just bad/misguided is undisclosed affiliation. Even after a fair bit of digging around I still didn't see a single bit of evidence to suggest that there's any affiliation here. In fact I'd say the evidence is more the opposite. If the OP were affiliated with CloudEra they wouldn't post awful questions like: "In Cloudera Quickstart VM how to upgrade latest version of JDK". I'm 95% certain that in the OP's mind sharing that newsletter was helpful and not something they stand to benefit from in any shape.

To elaborate on the affiliation point further: any given question (or crappy non-question) can be topical or not and totally independently have undisclosed affiliations:

                         | Topical | Off-topic |
------------------------------------------------
Undisclosed affiliation  | Case 1  | Case 2    |
------------------------------------------------
No affiliation           | Case 3  | Case 4    |
------------------------------------------------

For Cases 1,2 and 4 it's clear that they're wrong and spam and I'd usually cast a binding spam flag and destroy the account or mod message as appropriate. For Case 3 though it's not so clear cut: if they're in the right ballpark and don't stand to benefit from the misstep does coming down hard achieve anything? I don't believe it does and using the close/vote system to indicate the error does absolutely no harm and leaves the chance for learning/improvement open.

As for the declines, I use flag declines as an honest reflection of my appraisal of the situation. It's the only feedback given usually, if it's not honest there's basically no point in giving any feedback at all. I do that for any flag that takes investigation, be it "suspicious voting", "possible plagiarism" or spam. The message to take away from a simple flag decline like that is not that it's a major punishment, simply that the mod had a look and didn't see it your way. I didn't hand out review bans, or mod message for misuse of flags because that clearly isn't appropriate. Don't sweat it, unless you're getting a huge percentage of flag declines, nothing bad will happen. It's likely that some edge cases will come up differently when they're looked at with mod access from time to time.

To be clear it's such a terrible "question" that it isn't even a question. I took action besides just declining the flags: I down-voted it, cast a binding close vote and left it to roomba and the Q-ban algorithm signals that these actions give. Leaving it to roomba has one big advantage: the user experience from the perspective of the poster is much better - it maximizes the odds that they'll see the "it's unclear what you're asking" help center advice and actually do better next time (remember: this isn't a one hit wonder spam account) rather than just repeat the same mistake in a "hey where did that post go?" way. Early deletion can be harmful, fast deletion doesn't serve any benefit given that the Q was low enough scored to be excluded from the front page and tag subscription emails.

1Spam/Offensive flags, unlike other flags are a bit weird in that they can be retrospectively cleared because of the penalties they carry. But that action is grouped on all of those flags cast on that post.

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  • 55
    New Ajax with instant bleach removes stubborn stains without scrubbing! For fast, easy removal of stubborn stains, greasy film, black pot marks... more and more women are switching to new, pure white Ajax. Nothing cleans and bleaches better than new Ajax. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 17:25
  • 55
    Don't worry, guys. It's fine. I don't work for Ajax. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 17:25
  • 10
    I only have one issue. Spam or not, that question is blatantly spammy and worthless, it should be removed. So putting aside the status of spam flags, at least the mod taking action should delete that question. As it stands, it needed two high-rep users to waste delete votes on it. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 17:30
  • 1
    @AndrasDeak it will be removed automatically later and by not insta-deleting it the odds are much improved that the OP will understand why it was closed/deleted. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 18:49
  • 7
    Oh, I was under the impression that recently deleted posts are available to OP, and that mods can add comments with persistent notification even on deleted posts. If there isn't a way to instruct users without leaving garbage linger on the site, there should be. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 18:56
  • 1
    They are available via that, but how many confused people do you reckon find it? And yes I can write a comment but what I want to write is pretty much exactly what the close reason already says - why would I want to manually do what a machine will do for me automatically? Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 19:03
  • 36
    The point is not that you should punish the offender harder, the point is that you should not decline valid spam flags. It is perfectly fine to educate the user as "punishment" in this case since there doesn't seem to be malicious intend, but the question is still spam and saying otherwise means that one should never flag spam questions, which is clearly wrong.
    – nwp
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 19:12
  • 1
    @nwp based on what I see about the user and the product the spam flag is not accurate and "unclear what you're asking" is sufficient and accurate in every respect. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 19:16
  • 12
    I can see perhaps disputing/declining spam flags on this if the user had a history of non-spam questions. However, this is indisputably spam -- it's an advertisement for a product.
    – hichris123
    Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 19:17
  • 5
    Don't sweat it, unless you're getting a huge percentage of flag declines, nothing bad will happen. Doesn't really help when the user has to see that declined flag in there stats for the rest of the time they have the account. Commented Sep 2, 2016 at 22:10
  • 4
    @NathanOliver flag stats are private and there's no badge or reward or even expectation for 100% helpful. Am I missing some reason why that's a big thing? Commented Sep 3, 2016 at 6:45
  • 7
    The flagging dialog was only recently updated to state the affiliation requirement. The core, to my mind, is still "exits solely to promote a product or service." The recent addition about "Does not disclose the author's affiliation" only clouds this; it's not clear if it's an absolute requirement for flagging as spam, and I would not require it in this situation (otherwise, you are opening up to "spam away as long as you disclose you affiliation")!
    – tripleee
    Commented Sep 3, 2016 at 9:44
  • 1
    (and fyi if you ever find LinkedIn accounts, blog posts on corporate blogs, more spam the same elsewhere, domain whois info, address or phone number cross-references, emails on SOA records or other evidence of undisclosed affiliation that's great info to get in a custom flag, because that's the smoking gun I look for in a less clear cut case) Commented Sep 3, 2016 at 10:39
  • 34
    You declined the spam flag because the question did not fit your definition of spam well enough?! Whose team are you on? The community is what makes this site work (well, work…). It is a strong message to send to decline a spam flag for something that's so 100% front and center spam. Are you telling us that we shouldn't bother? Commented Sep 3, 2016 at 16:26
  • 30
    @Flexo I don't understand why this user was given special consideration at all. Looking at their profile, they clearly have not given any positive contributions to the site - nothing has been upvoted, and many have been downvoted. I'm not saying you should have nuked their account, but the user obviously is not in the same class as a 10k (or even 1k) user who "accidentally" posts something similar. Regardless of intent or affiliation, the post was spam, and should have been treated as such. Marking it as unclear was just wrong, the user won't learn anything from that.
    – MattDMo
    Commented Sep 3, 2016 at 17:43

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