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In the "Help and Improvement" review queue, there are 3 possible actions to complete the review:

  • Edit
  • Skip

And, a little more obscure:

  • A link saying "question is very low quality", which flags the question as "Low quality", sending it back to "Triage".

Here's a screenshot for those unfamiliar with that queue:

enter image description here

Now, if there's a question that really can't be salvaged by editing it, two possible responses could be:

  • A downvote.
  • A closevote (For whatever reason).

Neither of these actions are possible from this review queue.
You could argue that questions that should be down / close-voted shouldn't appear in the help and improvement queue in the first place, but they do.

So, I flagged those questions as very low quality, as they're not salvageable by editing them.
Those flags got disputed.
(Which I can understand, a cv / dv would've been more suitable).

The problem is that those questions simply should have been down / close-voted instead.

So, what's the point of that "Low quality" flag link?
Only rarely is it the best action, and in those cases the question really shouldn't have appeared in the queue in the first place. On the other hand, there are plenty of questions in that queue that can't be improved by editing them, and should really be closevoted or downvoted.

The "Very low quality" flag returns the question to the triage queue.
Wouldn't it be an option to skip that step, and allow (experienced) users to immediately close-vote / downvote?

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  • 32
    To summarize: Too many triagers miscategorize crap. Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 13:25
  • 1
    Unless I am mistaken I believe it puts it back through triage again Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 13:26
  • @Deduplicator: That appears to be at the core of the problem, yes.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 13:26
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    "Only rarely is it a valid action" - that is not my experience!
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 13:26
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    @jonrsharpe: Then why are a pretty significant amount of those flags of mine disputed?
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 13:27
  • 4
    @Cerbrus some of mine are too; I tend not to worry about disputed, that usually just means someone else is making the same mistake that bumped them into H&I in the first place!
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 13:28
  • @Cerbrus If you look at the flow chart here a VLQ flag in H&I routes back to triage. Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 13:29
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    So, basically, "Triage" is broken...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 13:30
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    @Cerbrus "almost always"? The H&I queue isn't working!
    – jonrsharpe
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 14:04
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    @Cerbrus When a post is flagged VLQ and it goes back to triage, if the triagers thing it should still be improved then your flags become disputed. I've flagged the same question as VLQ up to 3 times in the H&I becomes someone doesn't understand the <should be improved> button.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 16:03
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    The problem is that the phrasing "Needs improvement" is too ambiguous. It is intended to be used for "Needs editing by any SO users", but is often used for "Unsalvageable except by OP", which is confusingly shortened to "Unsalvageable".
    – o11c
    Commented Jul 24, 2015 at 21:46
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    If we want better sorting in Triage we need clearer instructions. Right now there seems to be no consensus on how to categorize questions, and as a rather new user I can testify that it is impossible to get some clear guidense on how to do it.
    – Anders
    Commented Jul 25, 2015 at 21:07
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    @Anders there is a consensus on how to categorize questions, but as was stated earlier, the buttons are confusing. There is also plenty of guidance on how to use triage, you just have to look for it.
    – user4639281
    Commented Jul 26, 2015 at 4:49
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    The consensus being hidden in a random meta post isn't exactly accesible. Why not put it in a a help center page and link from the Triage page? I recently asked a question about triage here at meta and got completely contradictory answers from multi-k users, including ones contradicting the post you linked to. So I would not say that the consensus is very well established.
    – Anders
    Commented Jul 26, 2015 at 8:05
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    @Deduplicator according to the above-mentioned meta "consensus" question, the "Unsalvageable", which serves both as "this question is total loss/spam/unreadable/off topic" and "this question should be improved by author". Which means that some people misinterpret the latter as "Needs improvement". Commented Jul 27, 2015 at 15:05

3 Answers 3

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First of all, I completely agree that the button is pointless when a question has been miscategorized in Triage.

For now, what you should do is:

  1. Click on the link to the question itself
  2. Vote to close it there, possibly with a downvote.
    • I agree this button should exist in the H&I queue; this recommendation is for the current UI.
  3. Click Skip.

However, it's obvious that this begs the problem of too many Triage questions are being miscategorized. This has been discussed at length in at least three places:

  1. We should clean up posts that should be improved but haven't been and won't be
  2. Rephrase Triage help text for "Should be improved" and "Unsalvageable " (this is , but Shog's answer has a -15 score)
  3. Suggestion for rewording of triage review guidance

The bottom line is this: the Triage help text is misleading and leads to too many "Should Be Improved" because "Unsalvageable" is simply too harsh language for most people to click on it, even though it is the only button that brings up the Close Vote / Close Flag dialog. I am not sure why there is so much resistance to doing it from SE staff, especially as all proposals for changing it get overwhelming support from the community, but here we are.

Note that the vision of what Triage is seems to be quite different from SE dev's perspective as it actually is in practice. See Tim Post's answer here, where he essentially explains that "Unsalvageable" is worse than a question that deserves only a close vote. It seems to me that Stack Exchange staff believes that there are many questions that we vote to close, but they prefer we would edit. For example, the questions that get closed as "unclear what you're asking" possibly could get edited by us into a useable form. That's why I said (in the first link above):

However, more often than not, the improvements really needed to come from the author, either in the form of missing information or in changing the scope to meet site guidelines such as a narrowing of scope.

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    Those 3 steps you mention in your answer are more or less what I do (When I can be bothered). Step 2 should just be available in the H&L reviews. I'd love to see how SE staff would "Improve" the 3 questions I linked. Any way, nice answer, to the point. +1
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Jul 27, 2015 at 14:30
  • @Cerbrus I totally agree it should be available, that first part of the answer was a recommendation for current. I've edited to reflect this.
    – durron597
    Commented Jul 27, 2015 at 14:35
  • Yes, I think the white elephant everybody is walking around is an option to lay this back in the author's hands in a clear, unambiguous way, which doesn't exist in triage nor in the H&I. Commented Jul 27, 2015 at 15:47
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    @RealSkeptic Closing a question puts it back in the author's hands in a clear, unambiguous way.
    – durron597
    Commented Jul 27, 2015 at 15:49
  • @durron597 I usually don't close a question if information is missing. I usually ask for it in the comments. I don't see why the questions in the triage should be treated more strictly than usual. I would say "Unsalvageable" -> "should be closed". "Return to sender" -> some sort of comment to the author, perhaps relegation from the front page / questions to answer page until the question is edited by the author. Commented Jul 27, 2015 at 17:02
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    @RealSkeptic Closing a question that's missing information is the entire point of the [on hold] concept. We reopen the question if it's fixed.
    – durron597
    Commented Jul 27, 2015 at 17:03
  • @durron597 Only while going through the hoops of the reopen queue first. There is no close reason for "more information needed". It's not a valid close reason (except for the "why is this code not working" questions, and even then it's particular information as stated in the close reason). Commented Jul 27, 2015 at 17:05
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    @RealSkeptic Sure it is. Both "unclear what you're asking" and "questions seeking debugging help" are basically asking for more information. Also, the reopen queue usually gets processed quite quickly.
    – durron597
    Commented Jul 27, 2015 at 17:07
  • @durron597 No, not really. "Unclear what you're asking" is not asking for more information, it's stating that the question is unclear - unclear enough that you don't know what information would be missing and can't ask for it. What I envision in this case (which is all about helping people ask better questions, remember?) is that the author will get a clear explanation what's missing in his question: The imports? The method mentioned in a line of code but does not belong to a standard library? A better description of the input or the output? An unclear part of the problem definition? Commented Jul 27, 2015 at 17:13
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    @RealSkeptic If you can't figure out imports in C# or Java code, then it's by definition not complete or verifiable. If the problem statement is incomplete, then it's unclear.
    – durron597
    Commented Jul 27, 2015 at 17:15
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Open Triage. Click more details on the flag types:

Should Be Improved for questions where edits by the author or others would result in a question that is clear and answerable

It blatantly tells you to send questions where the author could fix it to Help and Improvement.

In Help and Improvement, they hide the "this queue can do nothing to help this post" (which sends it back to Triage).

A question that only the author can fix has nowhere to go under the current system. Which makes some sense from a certain perspective (if you have a surplus of reviewer time to use, and expect authors to be useless, you should stress doing whatever can be done without author involvement).

I suspect the only reason there isn't an infinite Sisyphean loop is there are some users of H&I just edit and throw something mostly useless at it, not because the posts end up where they should be (closed, with a note to the OP saying what they need to do to fix the question).1


From the perspective of someone who wants to use their review time efficiently, there needs to be some way to encourage some part of the system to send "this question needs to be improved by the author, with the following guidance" off from the stuff the community can do.

The most efficient way to do that today is to ignore the review queue entirely. If you ignore the instructions in the queue, you usually get overruled by people following the instructions.

So get enough rep that you can do the actions in the queue without the queue, use the queue to find questions with problems, then leave the queue and work in the normal UI (close, edit, whatever).

For more advanced use, learn what the buttons actually do (which has little to do with what they tell you they are for), and act based on both that and what the instructions say if and only if they both agree (what should happen, and what the queue tells you to do). When they disagree, leave the queue and work using the normal UI.


1 The other possibility was that enough Skips might send things to the front page? Looking here I don't see it.

Regardless, if the edit or the skip sends things to the front page, and H&I just sends things to triage when you say they are junk, and triage just sends things to H&I because "Unsalvagable"

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As a reviewer, I've found myself asking similar questions. Why can't we vote to send such a review into a close vote?

I often end up clicking the link to the question, and then voting to close, only to find that there's already a close vote in progress. A prime example of this can be found here; at the time I reviewed this there were already two votes to close as "This question was caused by ... a simple typographical error."

Any edit to that question would render the error message invalid; the close reason is correct, and should probably override the rationale to edit. There are other similar examples in the HI queue currently, and they all have one thing in common: we can't salvage these questions by editing, at least not without resolving the issue entirely.

what's the point of that "Low quality" flag link?

This seems to be answered here. This seems to explain that the question will be voted to delete, which is a step too far; the OP should be presented an opportunity to add the details required before that stage.

Wouldn't it be an option to skip that step, and allow (experienced) users to immediately close-vote / downvote?

As it currently stands from my experience, deletion is the last resort (as votes for deletion often occur after a successful closure) and the step skipped is close vote; the preference seems to be:

  • if a post can be salvaged by anyone, it should be flagged for "help and improvement", otherwise
  • if a post can be salvaged by the OP, it should be closed, otherwise
  • the post should be flagged as very low quality, at which point it "may be removed at the discretion of the community and moderators".
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  • VLQ-flagged questions just get closed. There is no way to delete an open question except via diamond mod or post-owner authority. Commented May 8, 2017 at 14:24

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