158

I recently realized that a new limitation has been introduced to comments that prevents us from starting with +1 or -1 (or at least it's somewhat new -- earliest mention I can find is a post from November 2014). You get the below message:

enter image description here

I disagree with this for many reasons, all which appear in this older thread.

As an aside, this is not a duplicate of this question, which asked for the "why". The alert makes it obvious why. I contest its usefulness and particularly the reasoning in point #5 of this answer.

Therefore, I think that this limitation should be removed.

29
  • 67
    +1 I agree. But at least it can be worked around. Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 0:29
  • 16
    I don't disagree it's kind of trivial and unnecessary, but you're not really going out of your way to make a case here. You said you disagree, and many of your points of disagreement are in the older thread, but if you're going to ask for that (mis-)feature to go away you should probably say why in this question, and in specific terms. Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 0:34
  • 6
    Otherwise, -1 works just fine if not at the start of the string. Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 0:34
  • 13
    What, this is a thing now? I agree that I don't see any reason for this. I am even more concerned, because the previous thread clearly shows the community disagrees with the proposed changes, but now SE included it anyways - Why exactly are we discussing issues here then? +1 from me
    – dirkk
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 0:37
  • 69
    +​1 Actually, when I state how I vote, it's not to distract the author from the important parts of my comment. It's acknowledging that I read the actual answer, and also so the author doesn't misconstrue my comment as criticism or telling them they are wrong. In other words, it's to provide context for my comment.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 3:24
  • 18
    Ever since these things were disallowed, I've had to deal with more cases of people misunderstanding my positive comments, or ignoring the criticism with my downvotes ("why the downvote?" I dunno, maybe read the comment someone left on your answer coinciding with the downvote ten minutes ago?). But then again, that's probably a good thing - after all, comments are discouraged by virtue of being ephemeral, right? So maybe I should just stop commenting with my votes.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 3:27
  • 12
    Great point @BoltClock. I do that as well. Sometimes there's a great answer certainly worthy of an upvote, yet there's some minor criticism or point that you want to elaborate. Stating the "+1" makes it clear that you still think it's a great answer.
    – Kat
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 8:42
  • 8
    Upvoted. I agree that the restriction is a silly and unnecessary misfeature that just makes comments longer and harder to read. It also demonstrates how much value the owners of the site put on the opinions and wishes of the contributors. Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 14:37
  • 6
    Text is bad for conveying sentiment. Hints like +1 make it far easier to understand the intended tone. Also, it just mean people will resort to +1, upvoted, etc... to convery the same meaning. Incidentally, you can edit +/-1 in afterwards.
    – Basic
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 17:18
  • 5
    I flag a lot of comments that contain +1 and -1. Not because they contain these things but because they're very often just another way of saying "thank you". In fact, the comments that indicate a downvote are usually the best because they explain why they did so while the +1's are very often things that don't add to the conversation at all. Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 17:43
  • 8
    @JeroenVannevel: True. Now "+1 thank you" becomes "thank you", that doesn't improve very much. Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 17:55
  • 8
    This is all quite academic, SE staff already got a loud and clear signal from the community that this was not a welcome change. They ignored it anyway, have ignored it since then, as they'll ignore this one. Without anything like the standard USA "no questions asked money-back guarantee", SE is a very powerful whine generator. Being on the receiving end of that email inbox can't be a lot of fun, they do anything they can think of to reduce the volume. Some of these changes have been very detrimental, this is but a mild one. We can't have nice things as long as this whining doesn't stop. Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 19:16
  • 15
    @Shog9: This isn't status-complete. This asks for the change to be removed. It hasn't been, it's just as irritating and unnecessary as ever. Commented Jan 26, 2015 at 13:43
  • 7
    @Shog9: It's not about me. It's about not micro-managing people's content. I know to avoid it when I want to do that (and your stats must be off, I seem to recall hitting it just a couple of weeks ago). Commented Jan 27, 2015 at 7:32
  • 5
    @Shog9: Again: It's not about me. It's about this stuff getting really, really, really tiresome. It was tiresome years ago with the stupid @OP thing. It's tiresome with this +1/-1 thing. There are such bigger fish to fry, as well, than pet peeves. I don't think we'll have any kind of meeting of the minds on this, though. Commented Jan 27, 2015 at 18:40

7 Answers 7

131

I agree. +1 or -1 isn't useless. It can be really meaningful. For example:

+1. Change X to Y though.

This indicates:

  • It is a good answer;
  • You have a suggestion to make it even better.

While this:

Change X to Y.

Could be understood like:

  • Change it. It is bad.

When there is a downvote on the post, it could be understood like:

  • You are totally wrong. This really sucks.

The +1 makes the difference here. Although I agree this could be presented in words, +1 serves the purpose well too.

14
  • 24
    +1. BTW, your answer wonderfully showcases the probably easiest way to avoid the ban - use +1 instead of +1. Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 14:09
  • 4
    +1. That is one of the two ways how I respond to a good answer which could be improved. (The other is to first comment without upvoting, wait a bit, then check back.)
    – Jongware
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 15:23
  • 4
    Although the workarounds may be temporarily useful, I don't think they are a permanent solution. As long as the site owners want the filter, and do not care about contributors' views, the developers will just make the filter more sophisticated to eliminated common workarounds. Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 16:18
  • 2
    @Pat: I agree. That's why I didn't propose the workaround. It should be fixed on the core. Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 16:55
  • @Patricia in that case, I'll bring standard anti-ddos SE response: bring it on. Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 23:52
  • 3
    While alternatively you could write, "Great post! It'd be perfect if you changed X to Y." Is there really a case where the only way to express what you need is to add a +1 or -1 instead of actually stating what it is that made you like/dislike the post?
    – jmac Staff
    Commented Jan 19, 2015 at 1:15
  • I'm curious in this case why a comment is even needed. Why not edit (or suggest an edit, if you don't have the reputation) instead? You can even include a reassuring comment in the revision history.
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Jan 20, 2015 at 1:16
  • While the common argument is "As long as the comment includes useful information, the +1 can be brushed aside." The problem is the +1 is itself noise. Our eyes are naturally drawn to the +1 and it makes the rest of the comment harder to read. Don't we constantly complain about filler text like "I'm a noob" as distracting?
    – user3920237
    Commented Jan 20, 2015 at 10:55
  • 1
    @JonEricson: If I am not particulary sure, or the suggestion is just a suggestion, why edit it? Let OP do if he feels it is useful. Commented Jan 20, 2015 at 10:57
  • @remyabel: Any scientific support of your Our eyes are naturally drawn to the +1? (not saying you are wrong, but just to be sure we are not assuming...) Commented Jan 20, 2015 at 10:58
  • @PatrickHofman s/Our/my/
    – user3920237
    Commented Jan 20, 2015 at 11:25
  • @remyabel" ok :) Commented Jan 20, 2015 at 11:26
  • 1
    @Jongware Cut off one head, two more shall take its place.
    – user764357
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 0:27
  • 1
    +0.(9), since the "new" filter prohibits me from saying +1.(0) chuckle.
    – user719662
    Commented Feb 4, 2015 at 18:20
48

+1 can be at the start of a useless comment. At the same time, it can indicate "this criticism is not highly important, even if it would improve the post possibly: the original post was sound without this change."

-1 can be at the start of a useless comment. At the same time, it can indicate "this is the flaw in the original post: fix it and the reason why I gave a -1 goes away, so let me know when it is fixed and I'll be back to change my vote."

Both provide useful context when used in a mature manner and the reader takes them in the same light.

2
  • 8
    "" (empty string) can be at the start of a useless comment ... Commented Aug 28, 2015 at 14:40
  • 2
    @DaveDopson So you propose we ban comments that start with the empty string? Interesting position! ;) Commented Aug 28, 2015 at 15:16
27

Since one can't just write "+1" (applies to "-1" as well, of course) as a comment, you have to add something else, either:

  • something positive, meaning you wholeheartedly agree with the question
  • something negative, meaning it's overall okay, but one thing needs fixing.

Compare:

+1. I like it especially because it mentions X.

with:

This is a good answer. I like it especially because it mentions X.

There's so little additional information in the second example, I don't feel banning the shorter, more expressive and commonly used form serves any useful purpose.

2
  • 1
    I just want to clarify that I agree. But I would go further. Compare "+1. I like it especially because it mentions X." to "I like this especially because it mentions X." The same argument applies! The +1 adds nothing. And if you don't really have anything to say except +1, then you shouldn't be posting a comment. So by restricting +1 comments, we effectively create a filter. People who really have something to say will just delete the +1. People who don't will get the message and move on.
    – senderle
    Commented Jan 20, 2015 at 17:35
  • Of course, that's only if they know that the +1 is the problem.
    – Cullub
    Commented Jan 26, 2015 at 20:46
22

I strongly dislike this sort of automated content filter, but I'm convinced we need something to reduce our comment moderation debt. My preferred solution is to radically increase the number of comments hidden on a site. Unfortunately, a test on The Workplace suggests that increasing the number of hidden comments forces readers to expand more comments while not changing way people post comment. In other words, as much as I'd like to just hide more comments, that does very little to solve the problem of obsolete comments. In fact, it makes the problem worse.

Therefore what is needed is one of:

  • Alternative methods to delete comments besides flagging a moderator to do the deed.
  • Encouraging long-lasting comments somehow.
  • Go back to the drawing board on comments.

We've put a lot of thought on how to delete obsolete comments and . . . it's a hard problem to solve. What I like about this particular test is that it tackles a comment convention that we know a priori is obsolete. +1 and -1 make a lot of sense when voting occurs on a mailing list, but when an actual set of up/down arrows keep a running score, the stings are at best redundant. One of the tensions we have is that many comments would be better expressed as edits or answers or even new questions. It seems unhelpful to also have upvotes expressed as comments.

I'd be sympathetic to the argument that adding +1 clarifies a potentially critical comment, but words do a better job. I suspect that for many readers, +1 vaguely means "I like this". As it turns out, this isn't far from the truth. I compared comments that start +/-1 with the actual votes they left on the post:

+1     vote 
------ ---- 
306282 up   
 19832 null 
   685 down 

-1    vote 
----- ---- 
47108 down 
 3288 null 
 1392 up   

I've excluded all comments and votes that have been deleted/reverted. A significant percentage of people who left these comments did not vote or voted the opposite direction they said they did. In the later case, the comments are feints. When there is no vote, the comment can only mean "I like/dislike this post, but not so much as to vote on it". Or they just forgot to vote.

We know that a seemly arbitrary barrier to commenting is annoying. However, it's only a matter of time before someone starts flagging comments from an automated search, which will annoy our moderators. In the meantime, I hope that commentators continue to write more expressive comments or decide to vote instead.

5
  • "it's only a matter of time before someone starts flagging comments from an automated search" someone already did.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 21, 2015 at 4:29
  • 1
    How many of those vote/comment mismatches were a result of edits changing the post after the comment was posted, though? Commented Feb 2, 2015 at 2:55
  • 2
    As mentioned before, either insert pauses before allowing people to add each additional comment (Hacker News does this), or start charging a small amount of rep for each additional comment. Alternately a hard cap on comments might work as well, particularly if it is per user and total. Commented Feb 15, 2015 at 5:13
  • 1
    Yes, forcing people to add "+1" to the end of their posts instead of the beginning will definitely lessen moderator debt.. I haven't the slightest idea how you came to that conclusion, but I've read this post 3 times and that's still what I get from it. FWIW I will be adding my "+1"s to the end of my comments if this 'ban' is continued.
    – Seth
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 21:23
  • @Seth: That's a completely fair response, actually. One of the things I did while writing this answer was to see how often I post +1 comments across the network. I didn't think I would find many, but there were 144 such comments. 41 of those begin with +1. So if this ban had happened several years ago, I'd have run into it plenty of times and be as frustrated as you are. Truth is, we are going to continue having problems with comments until some comment aging system gets built in. (And even then, I don't think everyone will be happy.)
    – Jon Ericson Staff
    Commented Feb 24, 2015 at 21:42
16

This change was certainly... controversial. It's been running for about two months now, and I've collected quite a bit of data. I liked the stats Kendra put together from the initial set of data, so I tried to collect some similar aggregate numbers for the full two months:

Total GaveUp Truncated Replaced Expanded Doubled Upvoted Flagged 
----- ------ --------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- 
3987  19.5 % 16.7 %    27.6 %   45.5 %   5.8 %   14.3 %  0.9 %   
  • GaveUp == the commenter did not post a comment after encountering the blacklist
  • Truncated == the commenter merely removed the +/-1 and proceeded to post the rest of the comment
  • Replaced == the commenter replaced the +/-1 with a different prefix
  • Expanded == the commenter posted a longer comment than originally attempted
  • Doubled == the commenter posted a comment at least twice the length of that originally attempted
  • Upvoted == the comment that was posted attracted at least one upvote (note: 12.7% of all comments posted during the test period were upvoted)
  • Flagged == the comment that was posted attracted at least one flag (note: 0.9% of all comments posted during the test period were flagged)

Before attempting to draw any conclusions from this, I reflected on the analysis done by Jon Ericson and Andy regarding comment noise, specifically that length is a massive indicator of noisy or nonconstructive comments. So I broke down the stats by the length of the attempted comment:

AttemptedLen Total Cumulative% GaveUp Truncated Replaced Expanded Doubled Upvoted Flagged 
------------ ----- ----------- ------ --------- -------- -------- ------- ------- ------- 
<30          864   21.7 %      36.3 % 6.4 %     20.5 %   44.3 %   12.3 %  10.3 %  0.7 %   
<45          604   36.8 %      27.3 % 14.1 %    30.1 %   47.4 %   9.3 %   10.6 %  0.8 %   
<60          461   48.4 %      23.2 % 14.5 %    30.2 %   44.7 %   5.4 %   13.2 %  0.7 %   
<75          369   57.6 %      14.9 % 15.4 %    29.3 %   49.6 %   3.8 %   14.4 %  1.9 %   
<90          259   64.1 %      15.1 % 19.3 %    32.0 %   44.4 %   5.0 %   17.4 %  1.2 %   
<105         215   69.5 %      9.3 %  22.3 %    33.0 %   47.0 %   3.7 %   19.1 %  1.4 %   
<120         198   74.5 %      9.1 %  21.7 %    29.8 %   46.5 %   2.0 %   11.6 %  2.5 %   
<135         172   78.8 %      8.7 %  19.2 %    29.1 %   44.2 %   1.7 %   22.7 %  0.6 %   
<150         153   82.6 %      3.3 %  24.8 %    34.0 %   48.4 %   0.7 %   17.6 %  1.3 %   
<165         110   85.4 %      2.7 %  27.3 %    38.2 %   50.0 %   0.9 %   20.9 %  0.0 %   
<180         84    87.5 %      2.4 %  26.2 %    31.0 %   42.9 %   0.0 %   14.3 %  0.0 %   
<195         72    89.3 %      6.9 %  26.4 %    26.4 %   41.7 %   0.0 %   13.9 %  0.0 %   
<210         54    90.7 %      9.3 %  29.6 %    24.1 %   33.3 %   0.0 %   22.2 %  0.0 %   
<225         40    91.7 %      2.5 %  30.0 %    30.0 %   40.0 %   0.0 %   10.0 %  0.0 %   
<240         42    92.7 %      14.3 % 26.2 %    26.2 %   42.9 %   0.0 %   23.8 %  0.0 %   
<255         37    93.7 %      5.4 %  32.4 %    18.9 %   35.1 %   0.0 %   32.4 %  0.0 %   
<270         44    94.8 %      6.8 %  27.3 %    31.8 %   38.6 %   0.0 %   15.9 %  2.3 %   
<285         34    95.6 %      11.8 % 23.5 %    20.6 %   55.9 %   0.0 %   23.5 %  0.0 %   
<300         25    96.2 %      4.0 %  28.0 %    32.0 %   40.0 %   0.0 %   16.0 %  0.0 %   
<315         12    96.5 %      0.0 %  41.7 %    8.3 %    50.0 %   0.0 %   41.7 %  0.0 %   
<330         12    96.8 %      16.7 % 25.0 %    8.3 %    58.3 %   0.0 %   16.7 %  0.0 %   
<345         19    97.3 %      0.0 %  42.1 %    21.1 %   31.6 %   0.0 %   5.3 %   0.0 %   
<360         10    97.6 %      0.0 %  40.0 %    10.0 %   30.0 %   0.0 %   20.0 %  0.0 %   
<375         14    97.9 %      0.0 %  28.6 %    7.1 %    35.7 %   0.0 %   14.3 %  0.0 %   
<390         11    98.2 %      9.1 %  18.2 %    27.3 %   45.5 %   0.0 %   18.2 %  0.0 %   
<405         6     98.3 %      0.0 %  50.0 %    33.3 %   0.0 %    0.0 %   50.0 %  0.0 %   
<420         5     98.5 %      0.0 %  20.0 %    40.0 %   60.0 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   
<435         6     98.6 %      0.0 %  0.0 %     33.3 %   83.3 %   0.0 %   33.3 %  0.0 %   
<450         10    98.9 %      0.0 %  10.0 %    0.0 %    50.0 %   0.0 %   40.0 %  0.0 %   
<465         6     99.0 %      0.0 %  33.3 %    0.0 %    66.7 %   0.0 %   50.0 %  0.0 %   
<480         8     99.2 %      12.5 % 25.0 %    12.5 %   62.5 %   0.0 %   12.5 %  0.0 %   
<495         2     99.3 %      0.0 %  0.0 %     0.0 %    50.0 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   
<510         3     99.3 %      0.0 %  0.0 %     0.0 %    66.7 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   
<525         3     99.4 %      33.3 % 0.0 %     0.0 %    33.3 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   
<540         5     99.5 %      0.0 %  0.0 %     0.0 %    80.0 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   
<555         3     99.6 %      0.0 %  66.7 %    0.0 %    0.0 %    0.0 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   
<570         2     99.7 %      0.0 %  0.0 %     0.0 %    50.0 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   
<585         6     99.8 %      16.7 % 16.7 %    16.7 %   33.3 %   0.0 %   16.7 %  0.0 %   
<600         7     100.0 %     0.0 %  28.6 %    0.0 %    14.3 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   0.0 %   

Clearly, the vast majority of these comments were originally short. REALLY short. The bulk of the comments that weren't posted at all fell into this category. I'm sympathetic to the arguments some have made that +/-1 can be an effective shorthand when posting an extensive annotation, but in most cases this brevity was unnecessary.

More importantly, the block successfully motivated a significant number of authors to expand their comments, not just to replace or remove the prefix. In the face of an almost crushing volume of comments, anything that motivates authors to make them more useful is a good thing. Purely in terms of comments that didn't get posted, this block likely saved several days of work that would've been spent moderating them.

So, I'm not in any great hurry to get rid of it completely. But there's a rather obvious way to reduce the frustration it causes for conscientious commenters...

Comment Blacklist 2: length-based boogaloo

It appears that dropping this restriction for comments that exceed 120 characters in length would preserve the bulk of the positive benefits, while getting out of the way of folks who're taking the time to write reasonably informative content.

So, I've added restrictions for comments with both "-1" and "+1" where there needs to be more than 121 characters after the "-1" and more than 101 characters after the "+1". I've also re-worked the guidance presented upon encountering the block:

Easily-avoided blacklists may never be perfectly effective, but in lieu of better solutions to the comment problem, efforts to educate folks about constructive commentary are the best option we have. I apologize if you found this test (or this outcome) annoying, but please keep in mind the bigger cost of doing nothing.

As always, feedback and suggestions welcome.

36
  • 52
    "but in most cases this brevity was unnecessary" Just because you can write it in 20 words, doesn't mean you shouldn't use 2 if possible. Half the internet is build on acronyms and abbreviations. You're still ignoring a large number of comments which are < 120 characters, valuable and would benefit from +/- context +1 but don't use link shorteners as they obfuscate the destination[67]. You also haven't given stats for how many support cases this saved you, so I'm still vehemently opposed to this.
    – Basic
    Commented Jan 19, 2015 at 0:39
  • 11
    Txtskp ftw? Lol.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jan 19, 2015 at 2:54
  • 17
    To clarify, there were a total of 4k comments blocked in two months? Which probably includes the test comments from users following the meta discussion. Compared to the 1m comments written on SO per month as stated in the linked question, this is nothing. So all of this was an arbitrary action caused by a tiny amount of comments; which is now replaced with an arbitrary length restriction (why 120 and not 60?) that also makes the block "guidance" more confusing. And there's no hard indication of actual improvement. My suggestion would be to remove the block and not waste any more time on this.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Jan 19, 2015 at 11:48
  • 8
    Giving up isn't an option, l4mpi. We've been kicking this can down the road for years out of fear that someone would be unhappy, with the result being an untenable situation where moderators spend more time babysitting comment threads than handling exceptional problems; this can't go on.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jan 19, 2015 at 15:40
  • 11
    How is user supposed to know what "that content" is? I don't like the change, but if you need to do this, then at least inform user what is blocked (+1/-1 on comments shorter than 120 characters).
    – zch
    Commented Jan 20, 2015 at 20:57
  • 29
    Don't hide behind silly word games. This isn't status-complete. It's status-declined. Just say so and be done with it.
    – RubberDuck
    Commented Jan 21, 2015 at 15:28
  • 10
    The request was to remove the limitation that stops comments from being posted with a +/-1 prefix, @RubberDuck - and that's gone, you can post as many such comments as you like. So it's status-completed. There's a new block that tries to discourage lousy comments starting with +/-1, because I'm not inclined to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jan 21, 2015 at 15:38
  • 38
    Just because users gave up doesn't mean the content wouldn't have been useful.
    – sth
    Commented Jan 27, 2015 at 14:10
  • 19
    "This change was certainly... controversial" In what god damn universe is a net vote count of -136 (as of this writing) considered "controversial"?
    – user554546
    Commented Feb 10, 2015 at 18:50
  • 19
    "This change was certainly... controversial" Your question suggesting this idiotic change now sits at a net vote count of -138. Again: in which god damn universe could a net vote count of -138 possibly be considered "controversial"?
    – user554546
    Commented Feb 18, 2015 at 17:42
  • 9
    @Shog9 Re: "Txtskp ftw?" No... Clear, concise sentences for the win. It's amazing what you can say in < 120 characters <--- Eg all of that
    – Basic
    Commented Feb 19, 2015 at 15:27
  • 10
    @JeffAtwood IMHO, it's -1 that is the more useful of the two. Answerers want to know why they have been downvoted. Yet, a surprisingly high percentage of the time that I downvote and post a criticism of an answer without explicitly saying that I downvoted them, the Answerer will demand to know why they've been downvoted. Perhaps I'm just not rude enough, but, if I include -1, that never happens. So in that sense, -1 reduces the comment volume. +1 on the other hand adds nothing important. A courtesy perhaps ("attaboy!"), but little else. Commented Feb 19, 2015 at 15:31
  • 8
    @Shog9: Your original question containing the now-reversed change is at a net vote count of -142. Again: in what universe could this be considered "controversial"?
    – user554546
    Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 2:23
  • 7
    @JeffAtwood "-1:" might be a slur when you use it, but I do not use it that way, nor is that how I interpret it. Nor do I get the sense that that is how most others see it either, (and this very long argument in meta generally supports that) it is simply short for "I downvoted you because:". And if your misunderstanding of that is representative of the reason that the SE Empire has decided to impose this on us against our overwhelming opposition, I sincerely urge to consider that you may be misunderstanding us. ... Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 17:52
  • 8
    @JeffAtwood ... As for the value of -1 vs +1, its pretty clear: posters care a lot more about the reasons for downvotes than upvotes. I've see demands from posters every day wanting to know why they've been downvoted. I don't know that I've ever seen anyone even request to know why they've been upvoted. In that sense, both "+1" and any explanation of upvotes is largely wasted noise in comments: no one really cares about it. It's nice, maybe polite even, but little more. Commented Feb 21, 2015 at 17:56
4

I've been scrolling through the answers on this post and other posts and haven't yet seen my particular viewpoint come up, so I figure I'll mention it, especially since Stack Overflow is working on being more welcoming to new users.

When I first started using the site, the "+1/-1" were actually extremely helpful for me learning how to create good posts on the site. I remember particular instances where I would see the comment "+1 for describing the info on the linked site" or "+1 for providing explanation of code", and this was generally how I learned what made posts good and bad on the site.

Tutorials and question wizards are great and all, but I feel like these comments in particular help give new users obvious advice about how to improve their question without critiquing the user or putting demands on them. I think it's especially important that this advice is given in context of a particular answer that the user is interested in (unlike tutorials and wizards) and is also given in a non-stressful situation where the user's "reputation" isn't on the line.

Often times, I think advice for new users happens when they post something bad, lose reputation, and are told how to fix it. That's stressful. However, seeing a "+1" comment on a good answer or "-1" on a mediocre answer that isn't your own isn't stressful or harmful in any way, unlike constructive criticism on your own post.

While I no longer rely on "+1/-1" comments, I just wanted to point out another use they may have in helping the site to be more welcoming to new users by providing relevant and non-critical advice and feedback.

-19

I don't agree. When I was first posting here, I saw a lot of people posting +1 comments, and I followed suit. But I have since been persuaded that these comments are rarely substantive -- and when they are, the +1 is irrelevant and distracting. There's a vote-count right there at the top of the answer. We don't need another parallel vote count in the comments.

The +1 is irrelevant

Some people have said that a +1 provides useful context for a comment. But if the fact that you upvoted the answer or question is actually worth including in the comment, then you should have no problem typing out the words "I upvoted this answer..." If you're not actually willing to spend those extra keystrokes, then the +1 probably isn't relevant to your comment.

The +1 is a way of gaming the system

If it's not relevant, why is it there? The simple fact is that most of the time, +1 comments are attempts to game the system. "If I indicate that I voted for you, maybe you'll be more likely to vote for me..." I am personally familiar with this way of thinking! But that's not what comments are for, and I try to restrain myself from this kind of behavior now. And if you think this claim is absurd, I encourage you to consider, for a moment, whether you are fully aware of all of your unconscious motivations.

The +1 is a cover for sloppy writing and thinking in comments

Over at the other thread about this, LRIO says

I can imagine it annoying me intensely.

But that's a good thing -- annoying contributors is good for Stack Overflow. Hear me out. Consider the form of a sonnet. Just about anyone who has ever written a sonnet has been terrifically annoyed by the constraints it imposes. But people are still writing sonnets! Why is that?

Formal constraints are annoying because they force us to think before acting.1 That makes our writing better -- more explicit, less cliche-ridden, and more carefully conceived. And that applies to all of us, including people with 100k+ reputation.

It certainly applies to me. I still write bad comments sometimes. But I have written fewer bad comments since adopting a policy against saying "+1." The benefits of formal constraints never decrease; in fact, in my experience, they increase as you become a better writer.

1. As an example, I wish there had been a formal constraint that could have prevented me from typing "here" instead of "hear" above, or "ad" instead of "add" in the comment below.

17
  • 9
    Whether or not it's still prevalent here, it's common for me to see "+1 for direct quote from the answer" on hot network questions.
    – user3920237
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 18:08
  • 9
    I find the "gaming the system" part quite absurd. I think the explanation of the social aspect is a lot simpler: putting your weight as a user (with your name) behind an answer and indicating clearly that you find it useful. Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 18:12
  • 24
    So your argument is that we should force everyone to write "+1"/"-1" out "in full"? Wow. Yes that is how the internet has worked so far. Everybody uses the longest possible means of communicating something. Lol. Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 18:28
  • Lol? @LightnessRacesinOrbit is laughing out loud!
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 18:34
  • I'm using [+1] at the end of my comments (sometimes), or say what is wrong (no [-1]). And I'll continue saying what I think about the posts since I already received quite a lot of e-mails asking me to review posts which I already upvoted, or dropped a comment which was positive, but not clear enough if it's positive or not. Questions that I'm talking about are not followed by many people, but the product is widely used for deployment (which no one should underestimate). And trust me, regular voting is not all. I've seen posts of that tag which were simply wrong and received many upvotes.
    – TLama
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 18:38
  • 3
    @BaummitAugen, actually I don't think anyone is laughing. In this case, it seems to me that LightenessRacesinOrbit is using "Lol" to convey snark and sarcasm. Which is fair enough -- I don't expect my position to be popular. It's good enough that it's correct ;)
    – senderle
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 18:44
  • @TLama, I see in your comment an argument for adding comments, but not for adding +1 or -1 to comments.
    – senderle
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 18:47
  • @BenjaminGruenbaum, it seems to me that you are describing signaling, and as such, we are talking about exactly the same thing.
    – senderle
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 18:52
  • @senderle, well, but how do you recognize a wrong answer if it receives a positive score of 30 (given by mass upvoting), with a few downvotes from people who actually read and understood the post? And it can be applied vice-versa. So I am for keeping the freedom of adding this is right/this is wrong comments, and for that is shortest way +1/-1.
    – TLama
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 18:56
  • 3
    I don't think I've said anything about limiting people's freedom to ad "this is right/this is wrong comments." I even agree with you that "+1/-1" is the shortest way. That's why I agree with the restriction. I think people should do their best to explain why something is right or wrong. And the shortest way is not the best way.
    – senderle
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 18:59
  • @senderle, I'm not saying that I'm dropping comments like +1, this is correct (well, I do sometimes, even without saying +1 when I'm sure the answer is correct, didn't receive enough score, and the accepted answer is a huge overkill for the versions of the product since 2009, maybe earlier). I often add explanation why, and that might be ambiguous if I don't explicitly say that I agree or not with the post (I received e-mails asking about some of them).
    – TLama
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 19:16
  • @senderle, and the comment I linked might be a good argument why it doesn't matter if you use +1 or not. I clearly said that I agree with the post (that I upvoted it doesn't matter). That post is not most voted nor accepted one. And even then it's the best answer if you're using the version of the product released in 2009 (or even earlier, I would have to check that) because it uses feature that is built-in to product instead of ugly patching hacks. Which one would you choose? If you'd trust me, you would choose the less voted one. If not, I would at least make you think about it, wouldn't I?
    – TLama
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 19:28
  • @senderle, and when I said it doesn't matter if you use +1 or not, I mean there's no need to restrict it ;-) Someone even voted it down and I'm quite missing reason for that (obviously someone who doesn't know Delphi).
    – TLama
    Commented Jan 18, 2015 at 19:30
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    @TLama, following up now that the dust has settled a bit, I see exactly what you mean, and we agree on almost everything. Our only disagreement is that I think there are good reasons to restrict using +1. (And now that Shog9 has posted some Important Looking Statistics, it looks like there might even be actual evidence supporting my view!)
    – senderle
    Commented Jan 20, 2015 at 17:24
  • 1
    If you only post a "+1" it's indeed irrelevant but if you follow it by an explanation it carries meaning - general apprehension of the contribution. Provides the frame of reference for judging all further statements in the comment. So a +1 anywhere in the comment even at the beginning can be useful. That's why I gave -1 to this anser. Commented Jan 31, 2015 at 13:59

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